Why do gay men these days play so many games? From escorting to just general getting to know people

[Mocha]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA (the judge Judy laugh)

 

Remember, 1.1% in the gay lifestyle marriage is different than 1.1% in straight marriage. There's far more straight marriages than gay. A 0.9% difference is marginally. 1% of 10 gay marriages versus 2% of 100 straight marriages. What do you come up with?

 

It's also easy to understand why divorce is less desirable than in straight, and happens more often in straights...as per the stats. Women get to leave the man with the kids and collect child $upport. Gay men also tend to keep the status quo longer, "oh we're just roommates." But...in actuality they're out lying to everyone else not telling people they're married. I would be hard pressed to ever find out, that most of these guys I've met off these fuck dating sites are probably married, but separated, but never told me...and never filed for divorce. That would be the bullshit of the century and wouldn't surprise me in the least. Especially if they're living together and calling themselves "EX-roommates."

 

I knew a friend (trans) who got married. They separated but never filed for divorce. Guess, what? Those fucking bullshit stats would make it appear they are still together. Trash dat.

 

 

As a man of science, I hate guessing. Give me hard-core data if available.

And lo, and behold, there is some. Below I have listed 2 research articles where not only the the studies demonstrate that men in gay marriages file for divorce LESS than their heterosexual counterparts, but gay marriages (males) filled for divorce less than lesbian marriages. Yes, it might seem to some counterintuitive, but the data is the data.

 

Study 1:

"The second analysis found that, on average, 1.1% of same-sex couples dissolve their legal relationships each year. This rate is lower than the annual divorce rate for married different-sex couples (2%) "

 

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/relationship-data-2014/

 

Study 2:

"The most recent evidence from the UK Office of National Statistics finds that homosexual couples that joined in 2005 were significantly less likely to have filed for dissolution four years later than heterosexual couples were to have filed for divorce: 2.5% compared to 5.5%. As Hattersley points out, however, male couples were much less likely to dissolve their relationship than were female couples: By the end of 2010, 1.6 % of male civil partnerships had ended in dissolution compared to 3.3 % of female partnerships."

 

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2012/04/06/why-do-lesbians-divorce-more-than-gay-men/

[klifhangar]

Exactly, 100%. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I've done so many things to improve myself inside and out, and though things have gotten a little better, it hasn't gotten much better over the last 10-15 years. Guys will still play that ghost game and disappear off the radar faster than an EgyptAir plane over the Mediterranean Sea (my condolences, but best analogy I could think of ATM).

 

Right now I'm "getting to know" two guys where I been living for the past 4-5 months. Now, I'm not being a player. One knows I'm an escort. The other we've been chatting For 2 months but only met once (after we met he went on a cruise and I've been on tour for 3 weeks).

 

I'm going into it hoping it continues going well, but I've played these games before. I was recently in San Diego, supposedly the 3rd gay Capitol of Southern California. A friend and I went to a couple clubs, but overall I was not motivated to really meet anyone. I've had more disappointing long distance attempts these past 12 months than ever. Met guys from 4-5 different cities, and upon returning to rekindle, they've suddenly fell into a new relationship while I was away.

 

Back to the business end of things, it's dead all over the West. I've literally been breaking even everywhere for the last 3 weeks. In the past, things would suck for a week or 2. This has been going on for months. Doing little tweaks here and there and verifying photos on rentmen.com, but just overall just dead. Where is everybody?

 

Hey, I did propose marriage earlier in this thread and I've already proven that I can last in a relationship

 

I'm sorry. Hang in there, be real and you'll attract real.

[klifhangar]

@stevenkesslar You had me at "sweetie"

[WolfRamNHard]

I don't mean to belittle what anyone is going through, far from it. But I would gently submit that for all those of us who don't identify as heterosexual white men, things are better now than they were in the past, and continue to improve slowly. We have an African American President in the White House, marriage equality is the law of the land, interracial relationships are becoming more commonplace, my med school now graduates more women than men each year (which was not true back when I was a student a long time ago), HIV is now a manageable condition, etc. Don't get me wrong, there's still plenty of homophobia, racism, sexism and other forms of bigotry and there is lots of room for improvement. But things are better than say 10 years ago, and awareness of these issues slowly continues to increase over time (I believe social media has played an important role here).

 

When I lived in SF in the mid 1990s, I had a friend who used to say "if you ever see a white man and a black man together, you can pretty much assume that they are gay lovers because a straight white man would never hang out with a straight black man." And he was probably right at the time. But that doesn't seem to be an unbroken rule any longer, at least not where I live.

 

As far as playing games -- some people are just like that, whether intentionally or not, and younger people are more likely to come across that way in my experience because they're not sure of themselves and are still figuring things out.

 

Anecdotally, I just finally landed a 21 year old pup this weekend after **two whole weeks** of going back and forth on Scruff. The whole process was frustrating as hell (which is one reason why I normally don't go for guys that young). But patience finally paid off and it was well worth it in the end. In the process I also got a closer look at how the youngsters are doing things these days.

 

I realized how young people are doing things differently and I can either adapt and learn from them (and have some fun in the process) or I can keep pining for the "good ole days." Is it worse now compared to when I was 21? It was different back then but I wouldn't say it was necessarily better or worse in any absolute sense. In some ways it's more efficient now because you can actually get to know the facts about someone (their stats, likes/dislikes, hobbies, whatever else) without having to shout over loud music at a club, and it's far less intimidating to message someone than it is to walk up to a stranger in a poorly lit bar. If things aren't going anywhere, it's easier to just move on to someone else while you're sitting at home browsing an app than it is to stumble home alone from a bar half-drunk (and certainly safer than driving home intoxicated). There are lots of drawbacks too, but no system is perfect.

 

Another anecdote -- most of the gay male couples that I currently know met through some kind of app, although it's too early to determine long-term prospects of these relationships.

[LivingnLA]

This is a very intriguing post. I'm glad I found this site and this post. Thanks to everyone who's posted and shared their perspectives.

 

I'm an older married guy. After two decades of marriage, we're at a point where we're completely comfortable and committed for life. We also understand and embrace our various interests and needs even when they diverge.

 

Last year, I started searching for something I've always wanted: a masculine confident guy to chat with and put me on my back to bottom. I was cautious. I exchanged texts for awhile with a few different guys who seemed like good fits. I decided on a guy from rentmen who's regularly featured and has several perfect reviews. I guess those should've been a warning. He was charming on the phone and magnetic in person. Unfortunately, I blacked out about an hour into our meeting. When I regained consciousness hours later, I was still at his place, throwing up in the bathroom. He was clearly upset. While he let me clean up a little, he accused me of wasting his night, lying to him and drinking too much. We had maybe 3 shots of whiskey over that first hour, which is well under my limits. I'd paid for 2hrs up front. I was confused, groggy and couldn't find my phone. I knew I had it in my hand when I entered his apartment. I wanted to find my phone. He demanded more money. I gave him another 500, which was all the cash I had on me and I begged for help finding my phone. He helped slightly but basically pushed me out.

 

While I'm probably one of those flaky Californians the original poster is complaining about, I guess I just needed to share my experience. I believe I was drugged by a supposedly top-of-the-line escort and had over a grand stolen from me. The irony is that I was looking for something regular, say once a month, so the stolen phone and cash wasn't a huge loss to me. He's no longer in LA, but still has perfect reviews and I've learned a great deal.

[AndreFuture]

…While I'm probably one of those flaky Californians the original poster is complaining about, I guess I just needed to share my experience. I believe I was drugged by a supposedly top-of-the-line escort and had over a grand stolen from me. The irony is that I was looking for something regular, say once a month, so the stolen phone and cash wasn't a huge loss to me. He's no longer in LA, but still has perfect reviews and I've learned a great deal.

Wow, that's horrible. I'm glad you're OK.

[+ stevenkesslar]

There is no shortage of Gay couples including many active on this site who have had successful and enduring and loving relationships for decades, long before it was socially acceptable. One obvious challenge for Gay men who want a marriage is that, until recently, it wasn't condoned or allowed. So the guys that did it decades ago had to be really committed to it.

 

Now that LGBT marriage is condoned and legally sanctioned, I'll be very interested to see in a few decades, after there is a long period of time to look at, whether Gay men do better, worse, or the same as Straight men. Anyone wanna take a guess?

 

As a man of science, I hate guessing. Give me hard-core data if available.

And lo, and behold, there is some. Below I have listed 2 research articles where not only the the studies demonstrate that men in gay marriages file for divorce LESS than their heterosexual counterparts, but gay marriages (males) filled for divorce less than lesbian marriages. Yes, it might seem to some counterintuitive, but the data is the data.

 

I would argue this is not counterintuitive. If I read the data right, these are people who are very early to the game of same sex marriage. In some cases couples that have been together for decades got married, in some cases more than once as we went through the legal fights. The 2005 data is also by nature a set of guys who had to be pretty committed to the groundbreaking thing they were doing. I'm not sure they are reflective of most Gay men.

 

As I said above, my gut feeling is that this has a lot more to do with relationship skills than demographics. That is not completely true, because there is data that show that among straights, class and college education make a huge difference. But that seems to go back to the same thing: skills. To the degree that the hypothesis of the post is correct - that Gay men in particular like to play games - marriage is just another way to play that will likely end badly for many. To the degree that the research you cite suggests that most Gay men are not that way, the early rates of success you cite will hopefully continue. I'm stickin' with my position, which is that it's gonna take quite a while to tell, and the verdict is still out.

[+ stevenkesslar]

While I'm probably one of those flaky Californians the original poster is complaining about, I guess I just needed to share my experience. I believe I was drugged by a supposedly top-of-the-line escort and had over a grand stolen from me. The irony is that I was looking for something regular, say once a month, so the stolen phone and cash wasn't a huge loss to me. He's no longer in LA, but still has perfect reviews and I've learned a great deal.

 

Wow, that's horrible. I'm glad you're OK.

 

Likewise, I am glad you are okay.

 

You probably don't want to answer this question. But since you mentioned he has "perfect reviews," who was it? And have you thought about writing a review?

 

I know retaliation is always a fear.

[+ Truereview]

Oh, oh...brace yourselves....

 

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/58881560.jpg

[LivingnLA]

Likewise, I am glad you are okay.

 

You probably don't want to answer this question. But since you mentioned he has "perfect reviews," who was it? And have you thought about writing a review?

 

I know retaliation is always a fear.

 

Thank you for the thoughtful words of support.

 

I've debated myself about that for awhile because I don't know what happened during the hours I was blacked out. Did he search my wallet? Did he take pictures or videos? Does he have my name, address, etc.? My phone was locked and encrypted. I disabled it immediately. It was a brick to whoever he sold it too. I know he did too because I was exchanging texts with him for a couple days, asking for my phone back and the day I told him to keep it because I'd replaced it, literally a few hours later the phone was turned on in a part of town somewhat close to me but someplace I hadn't been in months. I contacted the rentmen admin for advice and while he was sympathetic, there was nothing he could do. So, I haven't written a bad review for him or posted anything anywhere until now. I've moved on, but this thread made me think about it again because I probably do seem flaky to the few guys I've texted with over the past year. I need to either get over it or forget this fantasy.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Thank you for the thoughtful words of support.

 

I've debated myself about that for awhile because I don't know what happened during the hours I was blacked out. Did he search my wallet? Did he take pictures or videos? Does he have my name, address, etc.? My phone was locked and encrypted. I disabled it immediately. It was a brick to whoever he sold it too. I know he did too because I was exchanging texts with him for a couple days, asking for my phone back and the day I told him to keep it because I'd replaced it, literally a few hours later the phone was turned on in a part of town somewhat close to me but someplace I hadn't been in months. I contacted the rentmen admin for advice and while he was sympathetic, there was nothing he could do. So, I haven't written a bad review for him or posted anything anywhere until now. I've moved on, but this thread made me think about it again because I probably do seem flaky to the few guys I've texted with over the past year. I need to either get over it or forget this fantasy.

 

Again, sorry for your bad experience.

 

I think you answered another question I had, which makes the review less important. I'm assuming from what you just wrote that the "perfect reviews" were on Rentmen? Not this site?

 

If so, that is not a surprise at all. Broken record: Rentmen either can't control it, or doesn't give a shit, or both. You decide. :(

 

Thanks for writing this, and I'd encourage you to at least privately contact Rentmen, even if it does absolutely no good. Maybe you'll feel better. (Or maybe not. Maybe you should just forget about it).

 

You story proves again that Rentmen sets the bar very low for what you have to do to get away with a crime.

[LivingnLA]

I would argue this is not counterintuitive. If I read the data right, these are people who are very early to the game of same sex marriage. In some cases couples that have been together for decades got married, in some cases more than once as we went through the legal fights. The 2005 data is also by nature a set of guys who had to be pretty committed to the groundbreaking thing they were doing. I'm not sure they are reflective of most Gay men.

 

As I said above, my gut feeling is that this has a lot more to do with relationship skills than demographics. That is not completely true, because there is data that show that among straights, class and college education make a huge difference. But that seems to go back to the same thing: skills. To the degree that the hypothesis of the post is correct - that Gay men in particular like to play games - marriage is just another way to play that will likely end badly for many. To the degree that the research you cite suggests that most Gay men are not that way, the early rates of success you cite will hopefully continue. I'm stickin' with my position, which is that it's gonna take quite a while to tell, and the verdict is still out.

 

I have studied human behavior in my work and as a hobby. I'd say you're on to something. The early same-sex marriages were generally by already committed couples. The legal recognition was just a formality. The same is true for heterosexual marriages. The key to healthy long-term relationships in my personal and professional experience has been communication, compassion and accepting that people change. Life is change. The person you started dating months ago isn't the same person you're dating now. My marriage is two decades old now and while we've certainly had ups and downs and curves aplenty, we've stayed open honest and committed to each other.

[LivingnLA]

Again, sorry for your bad experience.

 

I think you answered another question I had, which makes the review less important. I'm assuming from what you just wrote that the "perfect reviews" were on Rentmen? Not this site?

 

If so, that is not a surprise at all. Broken record: Rentmen either can't control it, or doesn't give a shit, or both. You decide. :(

 

Thanks for writing this, and I'd encourage you to at least privately contact Rentmen, even if it does absolutely no good. Maybe you'll feel better. (Or maybe not. Maybe you should just forget about it).

 

You story proves again that Rentmen sets the bar very low for what you have to do to get away with a crime.

 

Thanks. I didn't know about this site until recently. I'll see if I can find a review thread for him on here. As I said above, I did privately contact Rentmen and they did nothing. I've moved on mostly. But I feel some-what responsible for any future victims. It's definitely a pickle I'm in, which is why I haven't thought about it in months.

[+ stevenkesslar]

As I said above, I did privately contact Rentmen and they did nothing.

 

Duh. Sorry. I obviously read that, which is what made me think about reviews on Rentmen. I think it set off my normal chain reaction inside, which is "why does Rentmen let people get away with this?" and then I forgot about what you actually wrote and I read. I don't blame you for not thinking about it.

[LivingnLA]

Duh. Sorry. I obviously read that, which is what made me think about reviews on Rentmen. I think it set off my normal chain reaction inside, which is "why does Rentmen let people get away with this?" and then I forgot about what you actually wrote and I read. I don't blame you for not thinking about it.

 

Well, now I'm really kind of sad, which makes me feel like an idiot. I found quite a few posts about him and even at least one guy from this forum who seemed to have a great time with him, so I guess I was just a sucker or mark or something.

[+ José Soplanucas]

You should share who he is, at least privately to those interested. Like me.

Also, please submit the review to Daddy. Before publishing it, Daddy will contact the escort and he will have the chance to provide an explanation, if there is any.

I'm really sorry you had to go through such a horrible situation. I'm very glad you are physically unharmed.

[LivingnLA]

You should share who he is, at least privately to those interested. Like me.

Also, please submit the review to Daddy. Before publishing it, Daddy will contact the escort and he will have the chance to provide an explanation, if there is any.

I'm really sorry you had to go through such a horrible situation. I'm very glad you are physically unharmed.

 

Thanks. How do you do private messages here? I'll gladly share privately with anyone interested, with the agreement and understanding that it won't become public. Which is why I wouldn't post on whatever Daddy site you're referring to either. I just don't know what he knows or how he could retaliate. I cannot afford to have pics or video of me in a compromising position. As I said, I was blacked out for hours. Who knows what happened? Only he does and after the way he treated me when I regained consciousness, I seriously doubt his honesty and trustworthiness. I know I had my phone when I entered his apartment and I know I didn't when I left roughly 7 hours later. There's no way my phone could be anywhere else. He repeatedly refused to return it or admit to taking it. When he started complaining a couple days later about the mess I'd made that night, I told him I didn't care about the phone anymore and it magically appeared in Find my iPhone a few hours later in a part of town I hadn't been in months.

[+ José Soplanucas]

Thanks. How do you do private messages here? I'll gladly share privately with anyone interested, with the agreement and understanding that it won't become public. Which is why I wouldn't post on whatever Daddy site you're referring to either. I just don't know what he knows or how he can retaliate. I cannot afford to have pics or video of me in a compromising position. As I said, I was blacked out for hours. Who knows what happened? Only he does and after the way he treated me when I regained consciousness, I seriously doubt his honesty and trustworthiness. I know I had my phone when I entered his apartment and I know I didn't when I left roughly 7 hours later. There's no way my phone could be anywhere else. He repeatedly refused to return it or admit to taking it. When he started complaining a couple days later about the mess I'd made that night, I told him I didn't care about the phone anymore and it magically appeared in Find my iPhone a few hours later in a part of town I hadn't been in months.

I understand your predicament. To send a private message here, you go to your inbox in the top of the screen, and start a new conversation. I will send you one so you can see how it works. Any communication established that way remains private as long as the participants want to keep it private.

[LivingnLA]

I understand your predicament. To send a private message here, you go to your inbox in the top of the screen, and start a new conversation. I will send you one so you can see how it works. Any communication established that way remains private as long as the participants want to keep it private.

 

Ok, thanks. Do you want to keep it private? Because I sure as hell do.

[+ José Soplanucas]

Ok, thanks. Do you want to keep it private? Because I sure as hell do.

Of course I will respect your wish, it is your security which is in risk. I just sent you a PM.

[Mocha]

When I lived in SF in the mid 1990s, I had a friend who used to say "if you ever see a white man and a black man together, you can pretty much assume that they are gay lovers because a straight white man would never hang out with a straight black man." And he was probably right at the time. But that doesn't seem to be an unbroken rule any longer, at least not where I live.

 

Was that a White or Black friend? That's got to be the dumbest thing I've ever, ever, eeeeeeeeeeeeeever heard when it comes down to race. If anything, the roles could be vice versa. My Black barber hangs out with the White franchisee of the barbershop all the time and he has a wife and kids. I know you were giving an example, but that's just really low intelligence. And people grow up to believe that crap...

 

Sorry about your experience in LA. It definitely wasn't me! Lol. I personally don't like working in LA because of all the scammers and gamers. I had one guy invite me to his place in studio city, then he flaked. When I told him he'd be getting placed on nationalblacklist.com, he started threatening that he'd send his brother to arrest me, along with the DA, for soliciting. Of course, that would involve going 2,000 miles outside of their jurisdiction so couldn't see how that would ever come into fruition.

 

Makes me wonder what kind of goose chase would he have sent me on had he not flaked? Rentmen.com and every other site need to make better use of our money and screen every fucking caller who contacts us. Have them call 1800 Rent Aman before they ever see our number.

[Mocha]

As a follow up to the original topic, here it is Saturday night and what do you know....

 

I had 2 guys "attempt" to make plans with me. Both flaked. One with a valid reason, the other I think is just a pathological lying pot head and his number is going to get blocked and deleted after tonight.

 

And what's up with these stupid mother fuckers who text good morning and hi, hello all day but can't even get around to asking you on a date, and when you ask them...they flake? Stupid ass mother fuckers.

[WolfRamNHard]

Was that a White or Black friend? That's got to be the dumbest thing I've ever, ever, eeeeeeeeeeeeeever heard when it comes down to race. If anything, the roles could be vice versa. My Black barber hangs out with the White franchisee of the barbershop all the time and he has a wife and kids. I know you were giving an example, but that's just really low intelligence. And people grow up to believe that crap...

 

Sorry about your experience in LA. It definitely wasn't me! Lol. I personally don't like working in LA because of all the scammers and gamers. I had one guy invite me to his place in studio city, then he flaked. When I told him he'd be getting placed on nationalblacklist.com, he started threatening that he'd send his brother to arrest me, along with the DA, for soliciting. Of course, that would involve going 2,000 miles outside of their jurisdiction so couldn't see how that would ever come into fruition.

 

Makes me wonder what kind of goose chase would he have sent me on had he not flaked? Rentmen.com and every other site need to make better use of our money and screen every fucking caller who contacts us. Have them call 1800 Rent Aman before they ever see our number.

 

Mocha, that friend I was referring to was black, an older gentleman. I thought he had an interesting point based on his experiences and observations. Also this was back in the 90s when things were a little different. But I see your point too.

 

About the bad experience in LA, that wasn't me. I think it was LivingnLA.

 

About guys who first message you on an app and then disappear, there is a term for that. They call them "ghosts." I can't stand them either, they waste everyone's time including their own.

[Jock123]

Wow. Such a Great THOUGHTFUL Thread @Mocha I wrote something Similar a few months ago:

 

http://m4m-forum.org/threads/the-decline-of-human-interactions.111089/

 

 

There is SO much I find wrong with the Gay Community. Its why a majority of my Friends are straight. Not by Choice. I TRIED to Be-Friend quite a bit of gay people. But It was like You were either Dating them, Fucking them, Or they wanted to Brag about how great their life, boyfriend etc etc etc was. Never truly concerned for anyone eleses Happiness. It felt like "What can I get out of Knowing You". Granted this is my own experience Im sure there are plenty of great guys out there...But it is rare.

 

 

Sadly I really dont think It will get any better. Only worse. I dont even believe being an Escort will even be worth the Hassle Finacially 10+ Years from now. When I First started it was Effortless. Now It really does feel like "Work" Most of this work is Sifting through all of the Bullshit we deal with on a Daily basis. From Negative comments from Randoms online, To Flakes, To those who like to play "21 Questions" without actually following through with meeting, To those who "Haggle" etc etc etc

[Mocha]

Thanks Joc for following up to this with your thoughts. It's nice when another smokin hot guy can just let loose of the persona and talk about how things REALLY are in this lifestyle, which is essentially part of the gay lifestyle. More people need to get it out there and hopefully inspire a difference in the world. When everyone realizes no one is happy with this bullshit anymore and we need to stop pretending otherwise.

 

The only thing I can say that spares us as escorts from the games and ghosts (@WolfRamNHard ..is most clients whether gay, bi or married...aren't a part of the typical gay "scene" I refer to. Many don't even live in gay villages where the pretentiousness cultivates. So, Atleast one can be an escort and not have to deal with all that too much. Many times, clients are familiar with the "scene", but avoid it for the same reasons.

 

However, if you're the not so average gay guy like myself just looking to make other gay friends...you tend to get immersed in the gay scene unknowingly. I'm in a temporary transition in Nashville and these southern boys all seemed so full of charm, charisma, and chivalry. DEAD. WRONG. Every guy I've met, its been one game after the next. From the first guy I met here to the last one. They meet once or twice, want to text and play these kiddie games, but have no intention on going anywhere with the friendship. I'm not even playing these games anymore. I'm deleting text messages then blocking their numbers.

 

I reasoned with myself tonight, I would rather spend $6 on lotto tics than buy a second drink at a gay bar. I know that sounds pitiful, but either way, it's a gamble. Even when I meet guys and have a great time, most interactions are short lived and don't meet my long term goals. The odds of anything coming from it aren't much better than lottery odds. Might as well play something that has better odds lol.

 

 

 

Wow. Such a Great THOUGHTFUL Thread @Mocha I wrote something Similar a few months ago:

 

http://m4m-forum.org/threads/the-decline-of-human-interactions.111089/

 

 

There is SO much I find wrong with the Gay Community. Its why a majority of my Friends are straight. Not by Choice. I TRIED to Be-Friend quite a bit of gay people. But It was like You were either Dating them, Fucking them, Or they wanted to Brag about how great their life, boyfriend etc etc etc was. Never truly concerned for anyone eleses Happiness. It felt like "What can I get out of Knowing You". Granted this is my own experience Im sure there are plenty of great guys out there...But it is rare.

 

 

Sadly I really dont think It will get any better. Only worse. I dont even believe being an Escort will even be worth the Hassle Finacially 10+ Years from now. When I First started it was Effortless. Now It really does feel like "Work" Most of this work is Sifting through all of the Bullshit we deal with on a Daily basis. From Negative comments from Randoms online, To Flakes, To those who like to play "21 Questions" without actually following through with meeting, To those who "Haggle" etc etc etc