Yet ANOTHER fake ad on Rentmen

[+ Truereview]

Your a true philanthropist Truereview.

Well, apparently, if I was doing QA in London for Rentmen, I coulda been a martyr for the cause if I ran across Stephen Port.

[geminibear]

Well, apparently, if I was doing QA in London for Rentmen, I coulda been a martyr for the cause if I ran across Stephen Port.

 

[+ Truereview]

Gemini...now that I think about it, I believe that whole story should be added to your "spooky, paranormal" thread! Heck, maybe this thread should be too bc it is spooky how little Rentmen is willing to do.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Adding a button to a page is easy. Creating the back-end workflow, troubleshooting it, and implementing it is not so easy.

 

Unless I misunderstand the relationship between RM and the escorts...doesn't it come down to who pays RM, and what is their motivation to clean up (or not) their listings? They get recurring revenue for the ads regardless of their truthiness.

 

All your calculations make sense, rvwnsd, but my bottom line is what I said above: after what we all saw happen to Rentboy, I simply think Rentmen and every other website can't not afford to do this. Period. You are right that it would cost money to do this well, but it also costs money not to. If they adopt a "WTF" attitude, I'd say that's just plain old gambling. Right now doesn't seem like a good time to gamble. I'm 100 % sure a lot of escorts have figured that out.

 

I've never advertised on Rentboy or Rentmen, so I may not be the one to judge. I know plenty of escorts who do advertise, and I've had lots of discussions with them about these websites, both before and after the bust. I can't speak for them, and I don't claim to represent anybody but myself, but here are some things I can say as an escort.

 

First, these websites get a lot of money in revenue. They are not rich fat cats, but they are not broke. If you look at what the best escorts pay, it works out to be a considerable amount of money to advertise. For those escorts, this is a piece of cake. They likely provide the websites with a disproportionate share of their ad revenue, and the websites would have to do very little if any work to verify their legitimacy. And if they had a process - do we really need a process to verify that Steven Kesslar is an honest but badly aging and bitchy Queen? - it only has to be done once for escorts that run ads (or their loud mouths) constantly. Seriously, no escort with a good reputation is going to cost Rentmen time or money running them through the ringer.

 

As rvwnsd points out, on the opposite extreme, I'm sure you could easily spend more money in staff time figuring out an ad was fake than you got for running the ad. So what? It's called good business practices. No corporation would argue that because it costs money to document the unacceptable behavior of their worst employees, you shouldn't ever fire incompetent or dishonest employees. We are talking about advertisers, not employees, but Craigslist figured this one out long ago. I put several examples of what Craiglist does in a different post.

 

It's likely that the revenue made from the most popular escorts who run lots of ads would cross-subsidize the costs of investigating the ads of the least popular and least reputable escorts (not necessarily the same thing) and responding to customer complaints about potential or actual scams. So what? As an escort who has been around for 15 years and has had a great reputation, I have no problem with the idea that some of the money made off escorts like me goes to protect everybody from scammers. In the long run, it actually helps me, in my view, by getting rid of dishonest competition that damages the "escort" brand.

 

It also obviously screws up escort's business models when websites they run ads on are shut down. In my mind, escorts who are reputable and pay Rentmen money to run ads ought to be the loudest people demanding this, because the Rentboy bust hurt their business model, and having websites that are operating but full of scammers impacts their business negatively in a number of ways.

 

For any escort that thinks decriminalization is worthy of debate, this also impacts that discussion. The government can always use "sex for money" and "prostitution" as a legal claim to shut down any website they want. But those websites and the people who advertise on them have a legal right to defend themselves. If this turns into a public fight over decriminalization - which lots of groups like Amnesty International and ACLU and Lambda have said is coming down the pike, even before the Rentboy bust - I think we are on solid ground arguing that a closeted millionaire ought to be able to hire a 25 year old Gay bodybuilder who is using his escort income to earn a PhD and avoid going in to debt to the government, and they ought to be able to do whatever they damn well please in the millionaire's beachside getaway without the government spying on them. We are on weak ground arguing that Gay men ought to be able to do whatever the fuck we want, and the government has no right to shut down websites that make money running scammy ads that result in lots of people being ripped off. That is how we lose. If Rentboy did horrific things, which has neither been alleged nor proven, we'll probably eventually find out about it. Now is the time to make sure websites like Rentmen that haven't been shut down have a very good case about why they deserve to exist.

 

Now I'm going to really go off the deep end and say something that I know some of you will disagree with. It really pissed me off when, I think literally within days of the Rentboy bust, Rentmen Rick put up a video of all the escorts and porn stars that committed suicide, or died of drug overdose, or steroid abuse, or AIDS. My guess is that this industry has a disproportionate share of sad endings. And many of you commented that it was sad to watch all the pretty faces who had died. I agree. It was sad. But to me, it felt creepy, and it particularly felt creepy at a moment when what we really needed to focus on is the fact that we deserve dignity, and respect, and we have nothing to feel ashamed of. It felt disempowering when we needed to feel empowered. It felt sad when I was feeling angry. That is just me speaking, more as an organizer than an escort.

 

I am angry now that RentMen doesn't seem to be on top of this. It has been a few months since the bust. Sorry, but they ought to be coming to us - not to run sad memorials about the past, but to work with us on the future, to figure out what they can do to insulate themselves from what happened to Rentboy. The fact that we are going to them, doing their work for them, and so far simply being ignored is just pissing me off more.

 

Having said all that, if RentMen is shut down tomorrow I will pivot 100 % tomorrow and be their biggest defender. I hope all of you will, too. I don't think it's either wise or humane to kick Rentboy when they are down. I'd rather we kick Rentmen in the butt a little, to do what we can to ensure that they are not next.

[Brian Kevin]

*eats popcorn and reads forum*

[Brian Kevin]

So hard to keep names straight, especially if one has multiple personalities.

 

LOLOLOL i dropped my backpage stage name. RIP xander

[+ stevenkesslar]

This is what a Google reverse image search of Robbyy yielded.

 

He is definitely scamming. The interesting question is trying to sort out the tattoos.

 

From his Rentmen profile:

 

http://media1.rentmen.com/public/photos/main/4/118739_1445206215_yeu83gtehs.jpg

 

From the Internet:

 

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/uirP_zsnUHI/maxresdefault.jpg

 

One of the pictures of Robbyy was simply cut and pasted from this workout video. It is possible that "Robbyy" actually is this guy, because several more of the pictures in his ad clearly look like the same guy.

 

I thought about whether I was invading his privacy before I posted. My standard is that if you are worried about privacy, don't use a clear face photo (I haven't for 15 years) that it took me less than 60 seconds to match on Google reverse image search.

 

Here's Robbyy and his buddy working out:

 

 

Hot guys! Here's more if you are into watching hot looking guys work out. (I'm sure none of you are, of course. )

 

 

If any of you feel adventurous, you can actually call Robbyy. He has a pretty distinct accent in the video, I'm guessing British, so presumably if this is actually Robbyy and I am rudely violating the privacy of a fitness model who escorts on the side, a phone call should sort that out really quick.

 

The reason I'd bet money that Robbyy is not the guy in the pic is that there are two other pictures in his profile that have totally different tattoo placements.

 

The most interesting question to me is who this guy, also in Robbyy's profile, is:

 

http://media1.rentmen.com/public/photos/main/4/118739_1444946621_6xx892957j.jpg

 

It clearly does not seem to be Robbyy, since all of a sudden he has a pretty unique tattoo on his chest, unlike the (I think) 3 other guys in the 9 other pictures of Robbyy.

 

When I first saw the picture, I thought I immediately recognized it as the model Serge Henir, whose face could not possibly be confused with Robby's:

 

http://www.dnadabalada.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Serge-Henir-3.jpg

 

Then when I watched the video above, I noticed that Robbyy's workout partner in the video actually has a very similar tattoo. So I thought, maybe I screwed that one up.

 

I've eyeballed them for a few minutes, and I'm pretty sure the guy in one of Robbyy's RentMen profile pictures is Serge Henir, not the other guy with a similar tattoo in the workout video. Either way, neither of them are Robbyy. Then again, probably none of these guys are Robbyy.

 

So now I'm back to reporting Robbyy.

 

Rentmen, meet Robbyy.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Sent to Rentmen via their private server:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following ad is being run by a dishonest and disreputable advertiser:

 

http://rentmen.com/Robbyy

 

TODAY IS TUESDAY, OCTOBER 20. I WOULD LIKE YOU TO TEMPORARILY SUSPEND ROBBYY's AD IMMEDIATELY UNTIL YOU COMPLETE AN INVESTIGATION. IF THIS AD IS STILL RUNNING TOMORROW I WILL SEND YOU MORE EMAILS TOMORROW AND THE NEXT DAY AND THE NEXT DAY.

 

Robbyy's profile is dishonest because it uses the photos of at least 4 different men.

 

http://www.companyofmen.org/threads/yet-another-fake-ad-on-rentmen.108377/page-2#post-1010699

 

One of the men is a fitness model who is easily found on the Internet in fitness videos. Another is a model who goes by the name Serge Henir. If you go to the thread hyperlinked above you will clearly see that the photos of Robbyy on Rentmen can not possibly all be the same person. It is 100 % certain that this is a dishonest scam. I repeat. It is 100 % certain this is a dishonest scam. The ad should be suspended immediately and investigated.

 

Here is a summary of the 5 larger customer service issues I believe you also need to address

 

1. Where is the generic warning on your website to educate users on how to avoid scams, including Rentmen's own scam protection policies?

 

2. What computer software do you employ (like Craiglist does) to easily detect scams?

 

3. Where is the "warn" or "report" button on each ad that I can use to report alleged or proven scams and obvious dishonest information, such as fake pictures?

 

4. What is your "review" verification process?

 

5. Do you have a process for verifying pictures are not fake, such as using Google reverse image search?

 

Thanks,

Steven Kesslar

stevenkesslar@comcast.net

 

P.S. I am including my email but I would prefer you to respond publicly to the website hyperlinked here. Any private responses to be email will be copied and posted publicly so that people who use your website can see them:

[Despardo]

Not sure if you mean that tongue in cheek (or tongue in whatever) , or literally.

 

Being an escort, I can see this both ways. But I didn't run fake ads or scam ads. And the real point to me is to get RentMen focused on policies.

 

The great thing actually is that you guys are willing to do their work for them. The most obvious thing in the world to me is put a "warn" button on the ads so you can alert them. If the escort is not scamming, he has nothing to worry about. If you can demonstrate after 30 seconds of research that the pics are fake, he has no defense. Makes it pretty easy for RentMen, I'd say.

Steven, did you see this one?

 

http://www.companyofmen.org/threads/what-is-going-on-with-rentmen-ads-for-seattle-yet-another-fake.108383/

[geminibear]

Despardo and StevenKessler Homeland Security and TSA should be recruiting you for the terrorist watch list.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Steven, did you see this one?

 

Yes.

 

I'm off on a plane tomorrow and will be spending a week with family. Meanwhile, I will have my laptop and will be posting something on this every day, unless and until Rentmen actually acts like they are paying attention. I've been sending multiple daily emails to Rentmen since the weekend, and I was told by Rick at Rentmen they'd respond, likely by Monday, after they got back from the weekend. Nothing so far.

 

I'd encourage every one of you who shares a concern about these ads and/or the broader policy questions to be contacting Rentmen, as well as the escorts you think are clearly scamming, to document this.

 

To me, it is a very bad sign that so far Rentmen has said nothing about this, and done nothing. I targeted the ads I did because I did enough research (building on the excellent sleuthing several of you did) to feel that they are almost certainly scammer ads that should have been pulled already, in my view. For 15 years i've had to balance risk about what calls I take, what calls I don't take, what clients sound suspicious, etc. It has been my call. Unless I am missing something, Rentmen is in the same position. They have to balance risks and revenues. To me, suspending ads to at least investigate them when there is an outcry like this is just a total no brainer.

 

In terms of broader policy, I personally think it's fair game for us to debate the pro's and con's of things like picture verification. Ultimately, of course, it is Rentmen's decision. Looking at this through my eyes good customer relations and good escort relations is the goal, as well as their own self-preservation. None of this is simple, and all of it would cost money. The 5 steps I came up were intended to start a debate. They are all ones that I thought would make most clients happy, would make most escorts happy (especially all the honest ones), are reasonable, and would put Rentmen in a position where they have clear evidence they are responsive and trying to avoid scams and abuses. Like I said, it's their call. But we learned from what happened to Rentboy and the perceptions of Rentboy after the fact that being vulnerable and having customers and escorts who feel you suck is not a wise place to leave yourself. You might get left twisting in the wind.

 

Even Backpage, which I know nothing about, but many of you I think feel is way more likely to have scammy ads, has said repeatedly that they think its better to have websites that cooperate with law enforcement and customers then to drive everything back into the dark. I agree. That assumes cooperation and partnership with the customer base, which is what I view as the broad goal here.

 

Speaking of driving things away, to me this shows that what some of you have speculated - that Rentmen is out of reach because they are not based in the US - is perhaps not good news. Even if it is true that there can't be a Rentboy-type bust, there are all kinds of things that law enforcement could do and has done to other websites or their customers, including things like contacting Mastercard and Visa. I'm nowhere near the point of reaching any kind of conclusion, but the last few days if anything suggest that driving escorting websites offshore is just a dumb idea. It not only may put them out of the reach of DHS, it may put them out of our reach.

 

I can't tell you what I would do if I were in their shoes, because I've never run scams, and if one runs toward me, I run away. I once had Hooboy send me a bad review written about me that he was going to publish the next day, and I went into full VD (verbal diarrhea) mode, because it was a review from someone who I'd never met, and never even agreed to meet, who was trying to blackmail me into lowering my rate. Hooboy didn't publish the review. Rentboy is in a way more complicated position, because they can't easily identify or run away from every scammer. But I can tell you if there were 3 or 4 different threads in the Deli all saying this kind of stuff about me - that I was a scammer, that I was running fake ads, I'd be on top of it.

 

I don't get why Rentmen isn't.

[+ stevenkesslar]

I had several interactions with Robbyy, the scammer advertiser this thread is focused on, and I want to report what happened.

 

Several things before I get to Robbyy

 

First, I am now in total bureaucrat/documentation mode, so if you don't like long-winded, tune out now. My goal is to document as completely and correctly as possible why I think this guy is a total scammer.

 

Second, I am aware this could be viewed as unfair entrapment. Here's my view. As an escort, who is honest, and has the reviews and reputation to prove it, I've had to put up with way more time spent on the phone answering prodding questions than what I'm doing from lots of potential clients. Every escort knows what its like to field legitimate questions and concerns and still not get hired. There's nothing wrong with that. It is dishonest of me to pose as a potential client. I will admit that. But I think this guy is totally full of shit. So you can decide whether I'm rationalizing, or whether this is fair in dealing with someone dishonest.

 

Third, I am aware that this is the kind of stuff that DHS could use as documentation to bust a site. That is not my goal. My goal is the opposite. My view is that if there are vulnerabilities, it is better to figure them out and fix them now, then wait until after another website is busted. DHS wins if we actually act like we are a global criminal enterprise to use their words. We are not. We are actually probably more interested in protecting ourselves from criminal activity and abuse than they are. We also know for sure that DHS does not need our help to document whatever they want to claim.

 

My assumption, right or wrong, is that Rentboy was NOT a one-off. If I am correct, calling Rentmen and other sites out will help solve problems that could lead to more busts. If I am wrong, and DHS or the other law enforcement agencies have no intention of targeting other Gay websites, I am wasting my time and being a worry wart, and making myself sound like a nagging asshole. But this will still help make the websites better. Either way, I see this as broadly win-win-win for clients, escorts, and websites, and lose for DHS and scammy escorts. That's my goal.

 

I sent Robbyy the following text this afternoon: "Saw your ad on Rentmen. Interested in hiring. If available call me [phone number].

 

I got a call back at 4:58 PM that lasted 6 minutes. What follows is obviously he said/he said, but I will try to accurately document the key parts of the discussion as best as I recall.

 

After very brief pleasantries I shifted the discussion to Robbyy's photos and asked him about the fact that in one of the photos, he had a large and very unique tattoo on his chest, and in the others he didn't. He said the one with the chest tattoo was the most recent picture, taken after he got the tattoo. I then said I was also curious which of the guys in "the video" he was. I was being intentionally vague about "the video" at first, to see where he took it. At some point he said he had no idea what I was talking about, so I explained that I had used Google reverse image and that led me to a picture of him which he'd cropped, which was of him in a gym, which was taken for a fitness video with him and another guy. I said what confused me is that while several of his pictures looked like the guy in the video without a chest tattoo, one of the pictures in his profile looked like the guy in the video with the chest tattoo. I kept saying "fitness video" and at one point I am pretty sure he said he had no idea what I was talking about, because he had been in "thousands" of videos. (I actually think I recall he even said "tens of thousands" of videos later, but I am less sure of that). He also said I seemed to be doing way more research than needed for something that is supposed to be "relaxing." I said this is my standard procedure when I hire escorts to feel safe.

 

I then shifted the subject to his accent. The number he uses on Rentmen has a Western Massacusetts area code (413). I suck at identifying accents, but I would guess he could have an East Coast accent. It was definitely NOT a British accent, and it sounded nothing like the guy in the videos above whose picture is the primary one he uses. I said that part of the reason I contacted him is I watched his video and I find British accents to be a turn on, and so I was curious why his accent sounded so different than in his video. By this point I would say he was sounding exasperated. He repeated he'd been in lots of videos and added that in them he used lots of accents. Without prompting, he then gave me an example of his British accent, which also sounded nothing like the guy in the fitness videos whose pictures he is using.

 

At this point I said that this just felt odd and it didn't seem like it was going to work out. He pointed out that if we met and I did not feel comfortable or he was not the guy in the pictures, I didn't have to pay him any money. I said I still didn't feel comfortable with that. The last words he stated were, "Go fuck yourself. Goodbye." Then he ended the call. I'm 100 % sure of those words. I did use either a tone or words that could be construed as an attack. My view is that his choice to end the call that way said volumes about his character. In 15 years I can say I never ended a call that way when a potential client was clearly saying, "Thanks, but no thanks."

[Despardo]

Yes.

 

I'm off on a plane tomorrow and will be spending a week with family. Meanwhile, I will have my laptop and will be posting something on this every day, unless and until Rentmen actually acts like they are paying attention. I've been sending multiple daily emails to Rentmen since the weekend, and I was told by Rick at Rentmen they'd respond, likely by Monday, after they got back from the weekend. Nothing so far.

 

I'd encourage every one of you who shares a concern about these ads and/or the broader policy questions to be contacting Rentmen, as well as the escorts you think are clearly scamming, to document this.

 

To me, it is a very bad sign that so far Rentmen has said nothing about this, and done nothing. I targeted the ads I did because I did enough research (building on the excellent sleuthing several of you did) to feel that they are almost certainly scammer ads that should have been pulled already, in my view. For 15 years i've had to balance risk about what calls I take, what calls I don't take, what clients sound suspicious, etc. It has been my call. Unless I am missing something, Rentmen is in the same position. They have to balance risks and revenues. To me, suspending ads to at least investigate them when there is an outcry like this is just a total no brainer.

 

In terms of broader policy, I personally think it's fair game for us to debate the pro's and con's of things like picture verification. Ultimately, of course, it is Rentmen's decision. Looking at this through my eyes good customer relations and good escort relations is the goal, as well as their own self-preservation. None of this is simple, and all of it would cost money. The 5 steps I came up were intended to start a debate. They are all ones that I thought would make most clients happy, would make most escorts happy (especially all the honest ones), are reasonable, and would put Rentmen in a position where they have clear evidence they are responsive and trying to avoid scams and abuses. Like I said, it's their call. But we learned from what happened to Rentboy and the perceptions of Rentboy after the fact that being vulnerable and having customers and escorts who feel you suck is not a wise place to leave yourself. You might get left twisting in the wind.

 

Even Backpage, which I know nothing about, but many of you I think feel is way more likely to have scammy ads, has said repeatedly that they think its better to have websites that cooperate with law enforcement and customers then to drive everything back into the dark. I agree. That assumes cooperation and partnership with the customer base, which is what I view as the broad goal here.

 

Speaking of driving things away, to me this shows that what some of you have speculated - that Rentmen is out of reach because they are not based in the US - is perhaps not good news. Even if it is true that there can't be a Rentboy-type bust, there are all kinds of things that law enforcement could do and has done to other websites or their customers, including things like contacting Mastercard and Visa. I'm nowhere near the point of reaching any kind of conclusion, but the last few days if anything suggest that driving escorting websites offshore is just a dumb idea. It not only may put them out of the reach of DHS, it may put them out of our reach.

 

I can't tell you what I would do if I were in their shoes, because I've never run scams, and if one runs toward me, I run away. I once had Hooboy send me a bad review written about me that he was going to publish the next day, and I went into full VD (verbal diarrhea) mode, because it was a review from someone who I'd never met, and never even agreed to meet, who was trying to blackmail me into lowering my rate. Hooboy didn't publish the review. Rentboy is in a way more complicated position, because they can't easily identify or run away from every scammer. But I can tell you if there were 3 or 4 different threads in the Deli all saying this kind of stuff about me - that I was a scammer, that I was running fake ads, I'd be on top of it.

 

I don't get why Rentmen isn't.

Thank you Steven for doing so much. One would expect you to have more clout with RM than I do. I have emailed RM 4 or 5 times now. They have responded to me twice, but all 5 of the ads are sill running. Since I have no desire to slander legitimate escorts, I have confined my complaints to ads that not only seem suspicious, but are demonstrably fake. I applaud your efforts to try at least to improve the current situation. It is having a negative effect on the industry. In my case alone, although I have been intrigued by 2 or 3 recent ads for escorts new to the Seattle area, and although these ads seem perfectly legitimate, nevertheless I have lately been reluctant to act on any of them where the advertiser is not a known commodity. If other potential clients are feeling as gun shy as I am right now, this cannot be good for business. Again, thank you for what you are doing.

[Despardo]

I had several interactions with Robbyy, the scammer advertiser this thread is focused on, and I want to report what happened.

 

Several things before I get to Robbyy

 

First, I am now in total bureaucrat/documentation mode, so if you don't like long-winded, tune out now. My goal is to document as completely and correctly as possible why I think this guy is a total scammer.

 

Second, I am aware this could be viewed as unfair entrapment. Here's my view. As an escort, who is honest, and has the reviews and reputation to prove it, I've had to put up with way more time spent on the phone answering prodding questions than what I'm doing from lots of potential clients. Every escort knows what its like to field legitimate questions and concerns and still not get hired. There's nothing wrong with that. It is dishonest of me to pose as a potential client. I will admit that. But I think this guy is totally full of shit. So you can decide whether I'm rationalizing, or whether this is fair in dealing with someone dishonest.

 

Third, I am aware that this is the kind of stuff that DHS could use as documentation to bust a site. That is not my goal. My goal is the opposite. My view is that if there are vulnerabilities, it is better to figure them out and fix them now, then wait until after another website is busted. DHS wins if we actually act like we are a global criminal enterprise to use their words. We are not. We are actually probably more interested in protecting ourselves from criminal activity and abuse than they are. We also know for sure that DHS does not need our help to document whatever they want to claim.

 

My assumption, right or wrong, is that Rentboy was NOT a one-off. If I am correct, calling Rentmen and other sites out will help solve problems that could lead to more busts. If I am wrong, and DHS or the other law enforcement agencies have no intention of targeting other Gay websites, I am wasting my time and being a worry wart, and making myself sound like a nagging asshole. But this will still help make the websites better. Either way, I see this as broadly win-win-win for clients, escorts, and websites, and lose for DHS and scammy escorts. That's my goal.

 

I sent Robbyy the following text this afternoon: "Saw your ad on Rentmen. Interested in hiring. If available call me [phone number].

 

I got a call back at 4:58 PM that lasted 6 minutes. What follows is obviously he said/he said, but I will try to accurately document the key parts of the discussion as best as I recall.

 

After very brief pleasantries I shifted the discussion to Robbyy's photos and asked him about the fact that in one of the photos, he had a large and very unique tattoo on his chest, and in the others he didn't. He said the one with the chest tattoo was the most recent picture, taken after he got the tattoo. I then said I was also curious which of the guys in "the video" he was. I was being intentionally vague about "the video" at first, to see where he took it. At some point he said he had no idea what I was talking about, so I explained that I had used Google reverse image and that led me to a picture of him which he'd cropped, which was of him in a gym, which was taken for a fitness video with him and another guy. I said what confused me is that while several of his pictures looked like the guy in the video without a chest tattoo, one of the pictures in his profile looked like the guy in the video with the chest tattoo. I kept saying "fitness video" and at one point I am pretty sure he said he had no idea what I was talking about, because he had been in "thousands" of videos. (I actually think I recall he even said "tens of thousands" of videos later, but I am less sure of that). He also said I seemed to be doing way more research than needed for something that is supposed to be "relaxing." I said this is my standard procedure when I hire escorts to feel safe.

 

I then shifted the subject to his accent. The number he uses on Rentmen has a Western Massacusetts area code (413). I suck at identifying accents, but I would guess he could have an East Coast accent. It was definitely NOT a British accent, and it sounded nothing like the guy in the videos above whose picture is the primary one he uses. I said that part of the reason I contacted him is I watched his video and I find British accents to be a turn on, and so I was curious why his accent sounded so different than in his video. By this point I would say he was sounding exasperated. He repeated he'd been in lots of videos and added that in them he used lots of accents. Without prompting, he then gave me an example of his British accent, which also sounded nothing like the guy in the fitness videos whose pictures he is using.

 

At this point I said that this just felt odd and it didn't seem like it was going to work out. He pointed out that if we met and I did not feel comfortable or he was not the guy in the pictures, I didn't have to pay him any money. I said I still didn't feel comfortable with that. The last words he stated were, "Go fuck yourself. Goodbye." Then he ended the call. I'm 100 % sure of those words. I did use either a tone or words that could be construed as an attack. My view is that his choice to end the call that way said volumes about his character. In 15 years I can say I never ended a call that way when a potential client was clearly saying, "Thanks, but no thanks."

Well, I guess that call went pretty much as expected. Love the part about his having many accents--who does he think he is, Meryl Streep? Don't even think about your calling him as "entrapment" or in any way dishonest. I used to work in residential property management, and have been required to "shop" the competition incognito as well as having frequently been "shopped" by my counterparts from other properties, professional shoppers hired by my own company, and shoppers working for the government to monitor compliance with Fair Housing laws. This is a commonplace industry practice, and there is nothing unethical about it. That is exactly what you just did. Nothing wrong with it.

[+ VeryHappyCustomer]

Legally speaking, the Netherlands is not the dark side of the moon. I assume that businesses incorporated there are civilly liable for damages caused by fraud they abet in the US. If RM takes credit card payments from US customers, those funds can be seized by a US court. If someone is assaulted in an appointment with one of these creeps, Rick himself might even be required to give testimony.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Sorry guys, a bit more on Robbyy.

 

As I said above I got his call at 4:58. When it ended I noticed I had gotten this text at the same time: "$150 deep tissue $200 deep tissue erotic what time works for you? Look forward to seeing you xo!!" [He then gave me hotel information in Seattle, which I had not requested.]

 

I was actually at the grocery store when he called, and as I explained above the call ended when he said, "Go fuck yourself. Goodbye". When I got home I sent him a text that started with a link to the first of the two fitness videos above and said this: "Sorry was at the store. That's the video I meant. Called Sculpt Your Shoulders which I got when I Googled your pic in the Rentmen ad. I do that to be safe. I couldn't tell which one of the guys you are in the fitness video. The one pic of you has the sexy tattoo on your arm but that other one in the video is the guy with the tattoo on his chest with writing which is also super hot. But love the accent it is a huge turn on love British accent. That's why I called."

 

I actually didn't expect a response, but I figured it was worth it to go fishing and see what he said, if anything.

 

He immediately texted back: "What time works for you?? Look forward to seeing you xo!! I'm flexible."

 

I texted back: "I'm always flexible. But still not sure which of the two you are since you said you had the tattoo on the chest added so you must be the guy in the video with the writing on the pec??? I know you said you were in thousands of videos so Ithought I'd send it to help you remember."

 

He responded with a picture, which is the first one in his profile (top left hand corner), with him standing shirtless in the bathroom.

 

I did not respond.

 

This guy is a scammer. These pictures can not possibly all be of him. Most of them are a fitness model with a British accent, who this guy is not. One of them is the model Serge Henir. The only one with a cock shot looks nothing like any of the others, and is obviously there because the guy happens to have a big cock. It is total, total, total bullshit. Robbyy could have responded to my concerns by using his cell phone to text me a selfie showing him as he looks now, with the tattoo on his chest he now claims to have. Instead, unsolicited, he sent me an older picture from his profile that is clearly fake, and that if anything contradicts what he told me on the phone. If he were honest, this could have been settled in 60 seconds or less with a current selfie. The ads should be down now. Yoo hoo, Rentmen??? Anybody out there?

 

Let me also try to look at this through Robbyy's eyes, as best I can. He may be, as his ad claims, a certified massage therapist. My guess is he has some experience as an escort/masseur. The fact that he offered a hotel address without being asked suggests to me that he probably is not someone who is a potential safety threat. If I had showed up and said, "That's not you in the pics," my guess is at the very worst he might have gotten a little verbally aggressive. Maybe he's even a very good masseur, and a nice guy. But the fact that he ended an inquiry asking legitimate questions with "go fuck yourself" does not suggest that. He has every right to do his business, as far as I'm concerned, but he ought to have photos that are actually of him. And he ought to consider the impact of reviews. He told me when he called he had just landed in Seattle. If that's true, and he travels, he is not new at this, or stupid. So getting some reviews, even if you have to ask for them, and posting some honest pics, would solve his problems. I figured that out quickly enough.

 

When I was visiting Daddy last week he brought up for some reason the masseur David from Seattle, who was big when I started escorting back in 2000, and the fact that there was a negative reaction to the fact that David got so many reviews, so quickly. That may be a problem, but Robbyy makes it seem like a virtue. Nobody accused David of using fake pics, and the number of reviews suggested that time with him was safe, and likely to be pleasant.

 

Rvwnsd is right that from a cost perspective, spending as much time as I did "investigating" one ad like Robbyy's would be a nightmare for Rentmen.

 

But to go to the opposite extreme, being shut down or targeted because of this kind of stuff would be a worse nightmare. Ask Rentboy about that. Having people say "What's the BIG DEAL?" because you were perceived as not giving a shit is also a worse nightmare.

 

That's going to the hysterical extreme. The more pragmatic solution, in my view, is for Rentmen to do several things, none of which are complicated or expensive. Put a "report" button on each ad. Come up with a standard and fair policy for what they do when an escort is reported that doesn't waste lots of Rentmen's time. Personally, I have no problem putting the burden of proof on Robbyy in a situation like this. If they encourage escorts to NOT use fake pictures clearly in writing, and state clearly in writing that any solid evidence that fake pictures are being used will result in immediate suspension of the ad, the message will get through. Put the burden of proof on escorts like Robbyy in such situations. Pull the ad and tell him to send a selfie proving it's him.

 

Personally, I think you guys need to think through your criticism of "self promoting" escorts who ask for reviews. Almost every escort I know who has been around for years and has a good reputation has asked clients to write reviews. You can argue it can be taken too far, but if RentMen doesn't want to spend a lot of time dicking around with scammers like Robbyy, one thing they can do is encourage escorts to "promote" reviews, on this website, or on their own website, if they are wiling to take the time to verify them.

 

Even more important, they should have a clear policy to listen to clients or escorts like us who are willing to take the time to do their work for them. Obviously this opens a door to pick on escorts, but not really. 15 years of experience suggests to me that if you are a reasonably fair human being, who doesn't invite nonsense, you mostly won't get it. I didn't.

 

A resourceful escort who wants to scam can crack any code, which is why I personally think spending a lot of time or money on an elaborate "photo verification" process doesn't make sense. Robbyy actually did a pretty good job with the photos he chose. I just timed it, and it took me 1 minute 22.5 seconds to reverse image check his 10 photos, at least to determine whether any of them had "matches" on Google. Most of them don't. The ones that do are all of the guy in the fitness video, and one of the 10 is the one that led me to the video itself. It's not unreasonable to expect Rentmen to do this with escorts posting new ads, and to reject ones that immediately raise questions. That is exactly where the simple technology of sending a current selfie to confirm the image is you could come in handy.

[Scorpio]

This is who you spoke with o n the phone...it's the only free clip I could find in which spoke, even then it's not a lot of dialog:

 

http://www.rockettube.com/Hunks/Rockhardjocks/32028/Jason-Crystal-In-Coach.html

 

On Rentboy, he had a new name and photo set every few weeks for over 5 years and they certainly never made any attempt to shut him down.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Legally speaking, the Netherlands is not the dark side of the moon. I assume that businesses incorporated there are civilly liable for damages caused by fraud they abet in the US. If RM takes credit card payments from US customers, those funds can be seized by a US court. If someone is assaulted in an appointment with one of these creeps, Rick himself might even be required to give testimony.

 

One way we will know there is a full-fledged campaign against escort websites is if some agency or sheriff tries to convince Visa or MasterCard to stop processing payments to RentMen or any affiliated company:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/07/09/backpage-free-adult-services-ads-mastercard-visa/29931651/

 

http://consumerist.com/2015/07/27/court-says-sheriff-crossed-line-by-convincing-visa-mastercard-to-sever-ties-with-backpage-com/

 

Two things about these articles. First, I agree with you VHC that Rentmen is asking for it if they project an attitude of being outside the law. We saw how that worked for Rentboy. Even if they are outside legal US jurisdiction, they and their clients and advertisers are vulnerable. Second, whatever may be wrong with Backpage, I love that they are fighters. They are saying, logically, that it is better to have US-based websites that at least claim to cooperate with law enforcement and concerned customers like us. Second, they are defending free speech, in this case by offering free ads to advertisers who entered a "FREESPEECH" code, since they can't use Visa or MasterCard. That would trash Rentmen's business model, for sure, but my point is that if more attacks are coming down the line, I'd rather partner up to defend each other's interests AND protect free speech and privacy rights.

 

Since I've gone on and on about Rentmen's warts, let me flip and say one thing in their support. Whatever they do, they have to take the time to think it through and be willing to set and follow through on new precedents, which likely will cost some money and time. Reasonable causes of them delaying right now are they have have no policies on these matters, or think their policies are reasonable, or don't want to set new precedents quickly. I get that.

 

Another odd thing, to me, is that while DHS can shut down Rentboy by claiming it was facilitating "prostitution" because college students who were being hired by rich Gay guys for private and consensual activities, you probably could not shut down Rentmen or any other site simply because a serial murderer used it to advertise services to meet clients they ended up killing. I'm not a lawyer, but usually the legal precedents seem to focus on "caveat emptor." Go talk to the gun manufacturers about that. Rentmen may feel having no policy is sufficient because they really won't be held liable for scams or abuses or even crimes. And they may be right. I'm not a lawyer.

 

http://www.11alive.com/story/news/crime/2015/03/19/legal-watch--rash-of-craigslist-crimes/25031347/

 

Maybe Rentmen will just hold on to some pretty weak or nonexistent policies. If so, I'll just waste lots and lots of their time and my time finding clever ways to use what policies they do have to get them to pay attention. Hopefully, they'll work with us to set up some new policies that are reasonable, and reasonably more effective. Either way, I'm like a dog with a boner. Oops. I mean bone.

[+ stevenkesslar]

This is who you spoke with o n the phone...it's the only free clip I could find in which spoke, even then it's not a lot of dialog:

 

http://www.rockettube.com/Hunks/Rockhardjocks/32028/Jason-Crystal-In-Coach.html

 

On Rentboy, he had a new name and photo set every few weeks for over 5 years and they certainly never made any attempt to shut him down.

 

How do you connect "Jason" to Robbyy's ad?

 

And since you know something about the history of "Jason" on Rentboy, riddle me this. At the risk of sounding terribly naive, why spend 5 years running different ads every few weeks to disguise who you are, as opposed to building at least a decent reputation? There are escorts on this site who are not necessarily revered, but are at least viewed as "legitimate." Is the guy that much of a loser?

[Despardo]

One way we will know there is a full-fledged campaign against escort websites is if some agency or sheriff tries to convince Visa or MasterCard to stop processing payments to RentMen or any affiliated company:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/07/09/backpage-free-adult-services-ads-mastercard-visa/29931651/

 

http://consumerist.com/2015/07/27/court-says-sheriff-crossed-line-by-convincing-visa-mastercard-to-sever-ties-with-backpage-com/

 

Two things about these articles. First, I agree with you VHC that Rentmen is asking for it if they project an attitude of being outside the law. We saw how that worked for Rentboy. Even if they are outside legal US jurisdiction, they and their clients and advertisers are vulnerable. Second, whatever may be wrong with Backpage, I love that they are fighters. They are saying, logically, that it is better to have US-based websites that at least claim to cooperate with law enforcement and concerned customers like us. Second, they are defending free speech, in this case by offering free ads to advertisers who entered a "FREESPEECH" code, since they can't use Visa or MasterCard. That would trash Rentmen's business model, for sure, but my point is that if more attacks are coming down the line, I'd rather partner up to defend each other's interests AND protect free speech and privacy rights.

 

Since I've gone on and on about Rentmen's warts, let me flip and say one thing in their support. Whatever they do, they have to take the time to think it through and be willing to set and follow through on new precedents, which likely will cost some money and time. Reasonable causes of them delaying right now are they have have no policies on these matters, or think their policies are reasonable, or don't want to set new precedents quickly. I get that.

 

Another odd thing, to me, is that while DHS can shut down Rentboy by claiming it was facilitating "prostitution" because college students who were being hired by rich Gay guys for private and consensual activities, you probably could not shut down Rentmen or any other site simply because a serial murderer used it to advertise services to meet clients they ended up killing. I'm not a lawyer, but usually the legal precedents seem to focus on "caveat emptor." Go talk to the gun manufacturers about that. Rentmen may feel having no policy is sufficient because they really won't be held liable for scams or abuses or even crimes. And they may be right. I'm not a lawyer.

 

http://www.11alive.com/story/news/crime/2015/03/19/legal-watch--rash-of-craigslist-crimes/25031347/

 

Maybe Rentmen will just hold on to some pretty weak or nonexistent policies. If so, I'll just waste lots and lots of their time and my time finding clever ways to use what policies they do have to get them to pay attention. Hopefully, they'll work with us to set up some new policies that are reasonable, and reasonably more effective. Either way, I'm like a dog with a boner. Oops. I mean bone.

Steven,

 

I just found another one. Alex Vidus is currently in Seattle advertising on RentMen. I can find nothing wrong with his ad or his pictures, HOWEVER, he is almost certainly the same Alex who is advertising in Seattle on Masseurfinder and on massageM4R. The pictures are different (understandable) and could be of the same guy--hard to tell for sure. There has been a thread running on the Spa forum about Alex who has gorgeous pictures and rather too many rave reviews in a very short time frame. I did a reverse image search on the one picture the site would let me copy. Here is what I found and just posted on Spa:

 

I just now found something very interesting. It seems Alex has an alter ego in Moscow by the name of Andrej Yurevich Klimov who is both a fashion model and a Russian talk show host.

 

http://worktalent.net/katalog/modeli/parni1/klimov-andrej-yurevich.html

 

For your convenience, here is a translation from worktalent:

 

Biography: Andrei Klimov. Born on February 17 at the geographical center of Russia. They graduated from high school (№ 202) and Novosibirsk College of Culture and Arts. He worked in the local town hall leading events at the sites of the city. From 2003 to 2006, Andrei Klimov was the author and presenter of the program "Kinoekspress" leading of program NEWS UNIT on MTV under the pseudonym of VJ Klim. In Moscow, Andrei Klimov finished GITR in "PB TV journalist." For a long time I worked as a news presenter of the program "Russian filling" the foreign broadcasting NTV. For a while, he was the leading daily social talk show "The confidence of youth" in the capital channel trust. Since March 2009th VJ Klim, aka Andrei Klimov, led the musical events in live band music channels MUSIC BOX: the program "Road to Life" and "Van Wilder"; program MUSIC BOX PARTY, Andrei Klimov, which led to the company's co-host, singer Julia Lasker (http://julialasker.ru), was shot in the Paradise club every Thursday from January to December 2010. Today Andrei Klimov works on radio and television, is a variety of activities. Besides Andrei Klimov has a vast experience of such events as parties, weddings, birthdays, children's parties, corporate parties, anniversaries, theme parties. (Biography from the official site: http://AndreyKlimov.com)

 

Now it is just possible that Andrei left his career as a model and TV host in Russia to become a masseur in the US. Right. I had a lot of trouble copying any of his pictures to Google Image Search since the massage sites have the pictures protected and wouldn't let me copy and save the images, EXCEPT for the one on the title page which led me to all of the others! Check out his video on Worktalent--he speaks Russian just like a native! Quel surprise. Odd that none of his 12 ecstatic reviewers mentioned his charming Russian accent. Of course, he could be totally bilingual with no accent. Yeah, right.

 

The person advertising on the 2 massage sites is almost certainly the same Alex (Vidus) advertising on RentMen. In both cases, specialty is massage+ and both prefer text messages to emails and make a great point of that. The pictures could be of the same guy, but now I don't think so since if the massage site pics are fake, the escort pics probably are too. Too bad. He really is a looker.

 

If he really is the same guy as the Russian TV star and model, then I have done him a disservice.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Oops! Sorry to keep dragging this out. Honestly, sex with Robbyy would probably be more fun than enduring me.

 

But there's new communication from Robby.

 

The last communication, as noted above, was a photo texted to me which is one of the 10 fake ones from his Rentmen profile. That arrived at 6 PM.

 

At 10:19 PM I got this text from him. In the texts above I actually corrected several spelling errors of his. In this case I am just going to retype the text content verbatim.

 

Robbyy: "what time works for you ?? Lok forward too seing you xo !! I'm Flexible"

 

Me: "Sorry to waste our time, guy, but the pictures in your profile are sexy but just don't seem to match, and your words don't explain how you have a big tattoo on your chest in just one of them. You could have sent me a selfie of you now that matched with the tattoo you say you now have, but you sent me a profile photo that doesn't match with the big tattoo you told me you have on your chest. Just sounds too fishy. Sorry. Good luck."

 

Robbyy: "Your look into shit too much good riddenss. Fuck off."

 

And here I spent the whole night on this and I didn't even get laid! Fuck off is right!

[+ stevenkesslar]

I just found another one. Alex Vidus is currently in Seattle advertising on RentMen.

 

I can see why this is gonna be hard, looking at it from Rentmen's perspective:

 

http://rentmen.com/gay-escorts/seattle/

 

Right now the Seattle page is a treasure trove of scammers: 3 of the Top 5 are Sean Andrew, Tony Gooden, and Mike Reeves, the "traveling pack" addressed in another thread. Robbyy and your guy are right below him.

 

The person at the top of the Seattle page right now is Michael Vincenzo. On his Rentmen ad he's got a link to his Daddy's Review page, which has 125 reviews.

 

Again, at the risk of sounding naive, not everybody can can be a star like Michael Vincenzo. But are these other guys so bad that they have to change who they are every two weeks?

 

Even if the answer is YES, having them around and unaccountable fucks it up for clients, escorts like me and Vincenzo, and arguably Rentmen, too.

[Wolfer]

Maybe Rentmen should do in-person or Skype "product" inspections for proof-testing. I'd be a willing quality assurance inspector for a nominal fee. On second thought...id do it for free.

Boys4u actually does exactly that. They have two levels of verification. They send a text to the phone number and the escort confirms it (I don't know, maybe by sending a specific code back). And the site also does verification over Skype with an escort to verify it's actually him in the pictures. It's not required, the escort himself can choose to do it or not.

Boys4u isn't a well known site outside of Belgium or the Netherlands, though. And the clients have to pay to get the escort's contact info. Which I find completely backwards.

[Despardo]

I can see why this is gonna be hard, looking at it from Rentmen's perspective:

 

http://rentmen.com/gay-escorts/seattle/

 

Right now the Seattle page is a treasure trove of scammers: 3 of the Top 5 are Sean Andrew, Tony Gooden, and Mike Reeves, the "traveling pack" addressed in another thread. Robbyy and your guy are right below him.

 

The person at the top of the Seattle page right now is Michael Vincenzo. On his Rentmen ad he's got a link to his Daddy's Review page, which has 125 reviews.

 

Again, at the risk of sounding naive, not everybody can can be a star like Michael Vincenzo. But are these other guys so bad that they have to change who they are every two weeks?

 

Even if the answer is YES, having them around and unaccountable fucks it up for clients, escorts like me and Vincenzo, and arguably Rentmen, too.

I agree! I've met Michael, and he is a consummate pro and a super nice guy. In fairness to RentMen, Alex was pretty hard to expose, so yes it is a very difficult problem for RentMen. I didn't call out Alex to RentMen, because I cannot prove he is the same guy on the massage sites. I did however email the massage site that lists him as a "preferred" and also "verified" masseur. I also emailed Alex on both massage sites and asked how long he has been in the US providing a link to the Russian model's site.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Just emailed off to Rentmen:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I demand that you suspend the scam ad of Robbyy immediately:

 

http://rentmen.com/Robbyy

 

This individual is using fake photographs that clearly are not of the same person, and that a very simple image search will reveal to be of other individuals that have been pilfered off the Internet. There is no question that this person is using dishonest images to advertise on your site.

 

I contacted this individual and made multiple attempts to get him to verify they are any of the 3 or 4 or perhaps more individuals featured as "Robbyy" in Robbyy's profile photographs. A full accounting of my interaction, documenting this individual's lack of honesty and character, can be found here:

 

http://www.companyofmen.org/threads/yet-another-fake-ad-on-rentmen.108377/

 

Here are some of the things this individual told me when I attempted to verify his pictures are legitimate:

 

"Your look into shit too much good riddenss."

 

"Fuck off."

 

"Go fuck yourself. Goodbye."

 

How far do we have to escalate this to get a response from you? How many concerned customers need to complain? How many scammers do we need to contact directly to prove they are in fact scammers before you do anything?

 

Please suspend this ad immediately and let us know how we can help you prevent scamming, abuse, and crime.