Harpsichord, anyone?

[gallahadesquire]

Well, THAT was slightly misleading.

 

I'm slowly going through my bucket list, and I've hit an item that will be difficult: an harpsichord.

 

I don't play, well, not well. I know the oeuvre for the instrument pretty well, and I'd love to be able

to knock off a couple of hundred Scarlatti sonatas, or any of Soler's stuff.

 

I hope someone in here has some advice for me, other than "DON'T!".

 

The resurgence of harpsichord making and playing had a grand base here in Greater Boston. I know Carl Fudge's wife (and met him a couple) and I think I met Dowd once. Not sure on that.

 

Any suggestions are appreciated. I think I'd be looking for a relatively plain double-manual, Dowd preferred (or which tehre seem to be a glut on the market at teh moment).

 

Thanks!

 

Ref: http://www.harpsichord.com/List/list_frmset.html It's in my neighborhood.

[+ honcho]

If you're going to be shelling out somewhere between $3,000 and $9,000 for a musical instrument,

I would make arrangements with somebody that you know to play well (like a potential teacher),

to go with you and try out a few instruments before making a purchase. Seems like there

are enough instruments to be had in your area to make that possible. I imagine you'ld be

able to engage someone for rather under $100/hour.

 

(I'm not a keyboard player myself, but I did solicit my oboe teacher at the time to go

with me to try out several instruments at a local place that's one of only a handful in

the country that keeps several professional instruments in stock at any given time,

last time I did some serious shopping for a primary instrument).

[rvwnsd]

I like harpsichord music. Perhaps once you learn you will play for me.

[gallahadesquire]

The harpsichord Clearing House is about 30 miles away. I know several organists who would accompany me.

I do not play a manual instrument (skin flute doesn't count), but I've coveted a harpoon for years.

As long as I stay in New ENgland, I know one woman, prior chairman of the music department at one of our ten colleges,

who could train me. I'm sure she'd be good with the chair, whip, and pistol.

 

I could just get an eee-lectonic what-not, but ... it's not the same.

Oh, and Honcho: It's more like $20,000 to $30,000. For those bucks, I could get a 1931 Casavant organ.

[whipped guy]

Years ago I looked into purchasing a harpsichord. They were quite expensive. I even looked into building one from a kit. I figured out that would be impossible. A clavichord seemed much simpler to build, but I wanted something more robust. That was in the mid 1970's. I then got involved with work and totally abandoned the idea.

 

I do know someone who has a harpsichord. He did not build it, but restored it. Given the construction it is impossible to keep the damned thing in tune. He fortunately has the know how to somewhat deal with it, but really a professional is needed in his opinion. One more reason that I never took the plunge!

 

The compromise for me, and everything in life is usually a compromise, is to indeed get an electric instrument. It may sound like heresy, but for a fraction of the price I can get a keyboard that will give a variety of piano sounds, organ, and harpsichord. Plus I will get a full sized keyboard for times when I don't want to restrict myself to older music.

 

My retirement plan is to revitalize my keyboard skills that I had neglected for so many years. I have a spinet piano and really would want a keyboard with a better action. With an electric instrument I can get the action of a grand piano at a fraction of the price. It won't exactly sound like a Steinway, but it's not a bad compromise, in life we often do need to compromise.

 

Over the years I had developed work related issues with my right hand. In the two months since retiring my hand is now 90'% better and I can comfortably play again. My favorite keyboard composer is Haydn and since he spans the period from the transition from harpsichord to fortepiano, I really don't want to restruct myself to just one instrument. Of course I investigated buying a fortepiano way back when as well, and they were even more complicated. Plus, the wooden construction made them just as prone to going out of tune as a harpsichord. With an electric instrument I have noted that often one of the piano sounds available can at times somewhat approximate the sound of a fortepiano. Again, I should mention that it's a compromise as is everything in life, not to mention that it sould be the most practical way to bring more music into my life. Plus it would save space! Once again I'm being practical!

 

In any event, I have always been interested in older music. At a very early age I realized that the editions of most 18th Century music available were quite corrupt. In the 1970's I purchased the complete Christa Landon Edition of the Haydn Sonatas. Since that pioneering effort dates from the 1960's it was updated several years ago by Robert Levin. The differences are minor for many compositions, but it is in those little details that the whole character of a given piece can be seen in a new light. This often effects the earlier harpsichord based sonatas. To be able to play them on an instrument that approximates the sounds that the composer probably heard is something that I emphatically need to do. Even playing them on an electric instrument is an improvement compared to my spinet.

 

And to the OP.... if your potential dominatrix teacher needs a whip to train you I would be willing to supply her with the tools of the trade.

 

Incidentally, Yale University has quite a collection of old keyboard instruments. Unfortunately you can't play any of them, but once I did sneak into a classroom after hours where a harpsichord was brought for demonstration purposes. I was in heaven! Franz Josef never sounded so good and I was the player!!!

 

PS: The OP mentions Soler... an under-rated guy in my opinion! I almost forgot about him!

[AdamSmith]

whipped guy is God on all these points. A harpsichord is never in tune for more than a few minutes. E. Power Biggs's (see our eviscerations of his musicianship on these forums ca. 2010) recording of Bach on the pedal harpsichord is a bit hilariously out of tune, for example.

 

Buy a Clavinova or other such electronic instrument. As an organ purist I can't believe I'm saying that, but whipped makes the case absolutely.

[AdamSmith]

Tuning a large pipe organ, something for which I had no qualification but nonetheless was dragooned into by Fenner Douglass at Duke, is a fascinatingly maddening vexation. The flue pipes' tune goes up and down with the climate inside the chapel or whatever, but the reed pipes are what you tune, because they are much more easily tuned by sliding a little thing in them up or down.

 

The Duke Flentrop has ~5000 pipes.

 

My fear of heights did not help climbing the high rickety ladders up near the Chapel roof to fool with those pipes.

 

But, as with any such, one of the peak life experiences.

[whipped guy]

whipped guy is God on all these points. A harpsichord is never in tune for more than a few minutes. E. Power Biggs's (see our eviscerations of his musicianship on these forums ca. 2010) recording of Bach on the pedal harpsichord is a bit hilariously out of tune, for example.

 

Buy a Clavinova or other such electronic instrument. As an organ purist I can't believe I'm saying that, but whipped makes the case absolutely.

Well! To get an imprimatur from the illustrious Mr. Smith is high praise indeed! However, in all things I am usually the voice of reason.

Tuning a large pipe organ, something for which I had no qualification but nonetheless was dragooned into by Fenner Douglass at Duke, is a fascinatingly maddening vexation. The flue pipes' tune goes up and down with the climate inside the chapel or whatever, but the reed pipes are much more easily tuned by sliding a little thing in them up or down.

 

The Duke Flentrop has ~5000 pipes.

 

My fear of heights did not help climbing the high rickety ladders up near the Chapel roof to fool with those pipes.

 

But, as with any such, one of the peak life experiences.

Yes keeping instruments in tune is all about climate control. Unfortunately in a normal situation be it a home, chapel or whatever that is something that is impossible to do. My piano teacher used to keep a vase of water on top of her Streinway grand in order to control the moisture. I'm not sure if it did anything. At least at times the flowers looked nice! In a museum setting it is possible, but then again the instruments are hardly played except for special circumstances so it is almost a mute point that they are mostly in tune. Now I had not given much thought to the fact that an organ might be even more frustrating!!! Plus climbing the heights!!! No wonder the Hammond organ came into existence. Incidentally, my teacher had one of those as well and I did play a few Bach preludes on it. The ones with the ultra simple peddle parts. It was strange that with its two manuals one had to play with one long arm, one short arm, and your feet as well!!! There's no way that I would to able to chew gum at the same time!

[+ Charlie]

I own a Clavinova, which I bought used at a very reasonable price ($600?) from a pianist friend who finally had a living room big enough for a grand piano. It has several settings, including one that sounds like a pretty good imitation of a harpsichord. You might want to start out by learning on that, and then if you get good enough, invest in a real harpsichord.

[whipped guy]

I own a Clavinova, which I bought used at a very reasonable price ($600?) from a pianist friend who finally had a living room big enough for a grand piano. It has several settings, including one that sounds like a pretty good imitation of a harpsichord. You might want to start out by learning on that, and then if you get good enough, invest in a real harpsichord.

Your post reminded me that a friend has a Clavinova in his basement. It seems the children never followed through with their piano lessons and it may be just the deal for me as well.

 

Incidentally, our now long defunct local opera company used an electric instrument for the harpsichord accompanied recitatives. In fact in Mozart's Don Giovanni it was also used for Don Giovanni's Mandolin accompanied serenade.

 

Incidentally even when a authentic harpsichord is used it is at times amplified in some of the larger opera venues.

[AdamSmith]

This reminded me of another bit of organ stuff. Humidity affects those pipe ranks that are made of wood a little bit but the main thing that throws cathedral pipe organs out of tune is temperature fluctuations. So (if the organist or the organ maintenance guy has any pull) there is usually some effort not to overheat the place. And the tuning of the reed pipes before an 'important' performance is not quite so much about absolute correctness as it is about getting all the different ranks of pipes (several radically different modes of physical construction and sound production) to sound in unison. There are in fact specially designed ranks called in Dutch the mixtuurs to blend (actually sort of fudge and cover over) the difficulty of getting all the different ranks into the same temperament.

[whipped guy]

This reminded me of another bit of organ stuff. Humidity affects those pipe ranks that are made of wood a little bit but the main thing that throws cathedral pipe organs out of tune is temperature fluctuations. So (if the organist or the organ maintenance guy has any pull) there is usually some effort not to overheat the place. And the tuning of the reed pipes before an 'important' performance is not quite so much about absolute correctness as it is about getting all the different ranks of pipes (several radically different modes of physical construction and sound production) to sound in unison. There are in fact specially designed ranks called in Dutch the mixtuurs to blend (actually sort of fudge and cover over) the difficulty of getting all the different ranks into the same temperament.

Yes, having a good temperament is very important! Actually it is a good thing to be well tempered or wohltemperiert in all things in life not just music.

[AdamSmith]

These btw are some of the canonical texts:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Organ-Building-Design-Gerhard-Andersen/dp/0195190017

 

http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300064261

 

Studying with Fenner and coming to an understanding of the geniuses Couperin and de Grigny and how their influences differed from those that formed the divine Bach were again one of the great intellectual things of a lifetime.

[AdamSmith]

The ways that large organs are so aggravating to regulate, and that I learned to love them exactly for that reason from Fenner and Dirk and Fisk, taught me such useful things when I was young and trying to learn how to think.

[whipped guy]

The ways that large organs are so aggravating to regulate, and that I learned to love them exactly for that reason from Fenner and Dirk and Fisk, taught me such useful things when I was young and trying to learn how to think.

Well at least you were thinking about large organs, and ultimately learned to love them.

[AdamSmith]

I had forgotten this riveting discussion of essentially all the history of the organ:

 

https://chapel.duke.edu/sites/default/files/Historical_Perspective_Fenner_Douglas.pdf

 

It was, again, one of the peak experiences to study with the author. It was presented in the curriculum as a music history and theory class, but once in there, he delightfully forced every one of us into actual practice, terrifying as it was. (Unlike a piano or harpsichord, an organ is punishingly revealing of every aspect of one's touch etc.)

[whipped guy]

[

I had forgotten this riveting discussion of essentially all the history of the organ:

 

https://chapel.duke.edu/sites/default/files/Historical_Perspective_Fenner_Douglas.pdf

 

It was, again, one of the peak experiences to study with the author. It was presented in the curriculum as a music history and theory class, but once in there, he delightfully forced every one of us into actual practice, terrifying as it was. (Unlike a piano or harpsichord, an organ is punishingly revealing of every aspect of one's touch etc.)

In my limited experience playing the organ I found the "touch" aspect to be the most frustrating. A harpsichord is really quite another story and other than getting the proper articulation (staccato, portato, an attempt at a more legato feel, etc.) it's really not touch sensitive. With a piano it depends on the instrument and even the same model from the same manufacturer can be wildly different. Of course with an organ the differences must be even greater depending on the construction. It must be frustrating to toggle between different instruments.

 

I found the above article to be quite interesting and especially how the industrial revolution was responsible for the introduction of pneumatic devices in organ construction... and this all before the horrors of electricity were introduced. Well any digital piano with its combination of organ, harpsichord, and steel drum sounds is never going to sound like the real thing. So unless one has the space for one of each in their home such a choice is always a compromise.

 

Inspired by this thread, I attempted to visit a local store that sells a combination of acoustic and electric pianos. Well it was (past tense) the only one in the area that sold both. I should have called prior to going as I discovered that it is out of business. That leaves only one establishment in the area that sells pianos of any type. I find that surprising given that I live in the shadow of Yale University.

 

Along those lines, I visited the only shop that stocks an abundance of classically oriented sheet music a couple of weeks ago as well, and was totally disappointed in the lack of urtext editions such as Henle, Wiener Urtext, etc. Yes, they are pricey, but if I'm a music major with aspirations of being a professional musician I would want to learn a score from a scholarly source, not a corrupt Schirmer or Peters score (many of which are pricey as well) based on the research and editorial standards of 100 years ago! I ultimately ended up going to the Jiulliard Store in NYC to investigate and purchase that which I wanted and I am not even what one might describe as being a talented amateur. Of course one can "correct" their corrupt score with a scholarly one in a library, but I find that being exposed to a faulty version tends to subconsciously affect ones perception of the actual notes.

 

Bottom line: Nothing is easy in the world of music, or anything else in this world for that matter. In an ideal situation one would be able to play a given piece of music on the exact type of instrument for which it was written and be playing from an authentic score. Anything short of that is a compromise.

 

The above article speaks of being freed from "corruptive influences" yet also states that "...the elegant arts must grow up side by side the coarser plants of daily necessity". Such is life!

[AdamSmith]

'Touch' in a cathedral organ is the funniest thing. In a mechanical tracker-action organ there is an 'eggshell-break' feel in the middle of the key drop when you can tell by feel that you have opened the pallet and let the wind flow start. That tactile information is so valuable in performance because with large organs, more often than not the performer can't hear what's going on until it's too late! The first reverb back from the overall acoustic space may be the first time you really hear it. So much of the original sound just goes out over your head and you don't really quite know. And then different pipes take different amounts of time to speak. So the intimate physical feel, through the key desk, of what the instrument is doing is crucial to the musicianship.

[whipped guy]

'Touch' in a cathedral organ is the funniest thing. In a mechanical tracker-action organ there is an 'eggshell-break' feel in the middle of the key drop when you can tell by feel that you have opened the pallet and let the wind flow start. That tactile information is so valuable in performance because with large organs, more often than not the performer can't hear what's going on until it's too late! The first reverb back from the overall acoustic space may be the first time you really hear it. So much of the original sound just goes out over your head and you don't really quite know. And then different pipes take different amounts of time to speak. So the intimate physical feel, through the key desk, of what the instrument is doing is crucial to the musicianship.

I figured as much. In a cathedral setting when you add in the acoustics and resonance factors it must get quite complicated. It probably is analogous to performing the National Anthem in a sports arena and the sound literally swirls around the stadium before the performer hears it.

 

Plus it indeed takes a somewhat longer time for the really subterranean pedal bass notes to actually resonate from the larger peddle pipes. The same is true for an orchestra where some conductors have the double basses play just a fraction of a beat ahead of the rest of the orchestra in certain passages to assure that the proper impact is felt. That was a trick that Toscanini used to make his performances sound more exciting. Likewise I'm sure some organists compensate in a similar manner. One must know not only how a given instrument reacts, but how it reacts in relationship to the acoustics of the venue!

 

Along those lines, when in high school I was performing on the stage at Sprague Hall at Yale which at the time had a very lively acoustic. It was the first and only time that I played the piano in such a setting and I recall that my opening phrases jumped out and actually startled me to the point that I felt as though I was playing too forcefully. I actually think that it was impossible to play anything pianissimo in that space!

[AdamSmith]

Exactly right that the pedals are the most troublesome bit about the whole thing. Biggs didn't really understand their historical reason for being; he used them just for exaggerated thunder etc. But in the North High German, and the 17/18th-cent French, org building schools there were whole technical reasons they were needed to extend the range (actually that may be technically very incorrect - I can't remember, but I think there were tonal extension reasons that I now will go look up).

[AdamSmith]

Some luscious visuals on this site: http://www.die-orgelseite.de/funktionsweise_e.htm

[gallahadesquire]

I'm the OP, in case y'all forgot.

 

I'm familiar with multiple organs. A good couple I met whilst I was in Medical School was big into the AGO and the OHS: Organ Historical Society. A nearby town, Worcester, MA, has the oldest four-manual tracker in existance, at least, from 1864. [As and aside, I had the left pull stops at the re-dedication concert in ? 1977. I misread the cues, and managed to turn two or three of the divisions off in the middle of the concert. Oops!]

 

Other notable instruments locally: Aeolian Skinner Opus 909, at All Saints. a 197? Noack at Trinity Lutheran. Aeolian-Skinner opus 940, Church of the Advent, Boston.

 

I'm at a point in my life where I know a HELL of a lot of the organ literature, but most of my knowledge is of the music, and not of the piece / composer. Liszt, Franck, Vierne, Widor.

 

As an aside: I happened to be in Paris for the re-dedication of the orgen at St. Eustache, in Les Halles, IN 1989. Trying to obtain a ticket to this event, and throwing custom to the wind, I attempted to cash in on a couple of acquaintances. I know Bill Self, organist of St. Thomas 5th Ave, from his days in worcester, and knew he was a protoge' of M. Duruffle, of Requiem fame.

 

When I arrived, I phoned Mme. Duruffle, and pronouced myself as a friend of her husband's protoge, William. A lovely 15 minute conversation occurred, during which I enquired about entry to the recital. "Oh, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a ticket!" she exclaimed. "Even I cannot get a ticket!" We signed off with well wishes shortly thereafter.

 

The day of the Recital, there were about 5,000 people in Les Halles, sitting and waiting. THere was a 30-40' screen against the south transept, and the BIGGEST pile of speakers I've ever seen. I assume, if you're going to re-produce organ music, your speakers have to be BIG. It was a lovely recital, although the sitting organist, Jean Guillou, has a tendency to voice things at 4' and 16', leaving the 8' to fend for themselves. When the Thurifer offered the Thurible to someone .... I couldn't tell if it was a politico or a religico ... it was all shown on the screen, and met with GALES of laughter.

 

As for the Noack: I met the Man Who I Should Have Married, bent over the Hooded Trumpet in the Swell. He had on a pink shirt and tight, light blue jeans. Sigh.

 

I've never been a keyboardist: I'm much better as a tenor. As in: Tanglewood Festival CHorus, seasons 2,3,4;6;8. Did Carnegie Hall before I was 25.

 

ANd for you religious nuts: When I was at THe Advent, Boston, we sang "The Secret Sins" but I can't remember which Renaissance english dude it was. It went up to a high Bflat or B. The alto couldn't sing it.

I got to do the alto solo. Afterwards, the Celecbrant asked, "Did you sing that solo?" "yes, why?" I answered. " It was the most AMAZING thing I've ever heard."

 

PS I'm off to listen to Mozart's Requiem. I performed it with the late Sir Colin Davis once, and it was one of the most moving moments of my life.

[AdamSmith]

Gallahad, please forgive the effusions of a mere aficionado.

 

A dictionary of stops: http://www.organstops.org

 

It omits however the fuchs schwentz -- a stop knob on some German organs which, when pulled, released a little rod above the key desk which would swing down on a hinge and scratch the player's itching nose with a fox tail attached to the end of the rod!

 

PS I was wrong -- here it is under correct spelling:

 

http://www.organstops.org/f/Fuchsschwanz.html

 

In describing this unlikely “stop”, whose name comes from the German “fuchs” (fox), “schwanz” (tail), and “schwank” (joke), I could not possibly improve upon Wedgwood, whose entry reads as follows:

One of the strange accessories sometimes found in old German organs. A stop-knob bearing the inscription “Noli me tangere” (“Do not touch”) was attached to the console. As a reward for their curiosity, persons who, regardless of this injunction, touched the knob, thereby set free the catch of a spring, causing a huge foxtail to fly out into their faces. Sometimes the foxtail was simply attached to the stop knob. Having once drawn the tail out of the jamb, it was a matter of some difficulty to replace it. Meanwhile, the recalcitrant culprit was subject to the chaff of his comrades. There is a foxtail near the dwarf “Perkeo”, guarding the great Tun at Heidelberg Castle. St. Andrea, Erfurt; St. Gertrud, Hamburg.

Regarding Fuchsschwanz, Adlung writes: “Of course the name is not written on [the stopknob].”

 

See Vox Inaudita.

 

Examples

Noli me tangere; Domes St.Maria (cathedral), Riga, Latvia; Walcker 1883 (restored 1983). This is actually a Pedal to Great (not Great to Pedal!) coupler.

[whipped guy]

When I first read this quite early this morning I misread the opening line to read "I am familiar with multiple orgasims", but by the time I got to the part where Franck and Widor were referenced I realized that I had indeed misread that opening line.

 

Of course then Mr. Smith chimes in and starts talking about pulling out all the stops, not touching, the release of rods, and then what seems like a BDSM type punishment. So I'm confused again.

 

At any rate, mention was made of the Mozart Requiem and I feel the need to comment on that.

 

For some reason I had to listen to the Mozart Requiem myself a few days ago. I have come to the conclusion that the original Sussmeyer completion is still the best option out there. The furthest I would go is the Beyer edition which attempts to "correct" some of Süssmayr to make it more in line with what Mozart might have written. Some such as Maundner have gone way too far by eliminating as much Süssmayr as possible. Others have rewritten things to be more in line with what Mozart might have done. However, when it involves full scale fugal passages I can't imagine how anyone can claim any semblance of authenticity other than a personal ego trip. Of course what complicates matters concerns the fact that a certain von Ebyler was originally given the task of completing the piece and he gave up in frustration and his solutions are different from those of Süssmayr.

 

Some of Süssmayr, such as the Sanctus, does not sound perfectly like Mozart to my ears, but it's not a really bad piece of work and at least it dates from the original time and place. I have always wondered if the opening of the Sanctus is based on a lost Mozart sketch. Something tells me yes, and possibly Mozart would have accompanied it with a more interesting orchestral palette and developed the theme in a more arresting manner Still, in the final analysis, the Süssmayr completion not only works but has withstood the test of time.

 

Did not this thread originally have something to do with a harpsichord?

[+ quoththeraven]

Wow. I didn't realize harpsichords were that expensive or kits that onerous to put together. As a teen, I was asked to accompany a friend and her family on a harpsichord at someone else's house. (My first ever encounter with a harpsichord.) I date my love for Baroque chamber music from that time. The harpsichord on which I played had been assembled from a kit.