Harpsichord, anyone?

[AdamSmith]

...There used to be a tradition - up to the 19th century - that when the organ was approved the organbuilder would receive as much wine as the largest pipe in the organ would hold. In the case of a large organ with a Principal 32' rank in the pedal (in the picture to the right: cathedral organist Hans Leitner in front of the 32' (10 m) high pedal pipes of the Munich Cathedral organ) this would amount to some 330 gallons (1,250 liters). (Too bad that this tradition has been discontinued ;-)

 

http://www.die-orgelseite.de/orgelbau/muenchen32fuss_klein.jpg

 

From this site on organ building: http://www.die-orgelseite.de/orgelbau_e.htm

 

http://www.die-orgelseite.de/orgelbau/traktur_klein.jpg http://www.die-orgelseite.de/orgelbau/trakturfuehrung_klein.jpg http://www.die-orgelseite.de/orgelbau/werkstattaufbau_traktur_klein.jpg

[AdamSmith]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Vwx8biT702Q/VXRBP398UKI/AAAAAAAAAEc/WgfVrJaRI7k/s1600/OrganStops.jpg

 

http://rlv.zcache.com/my_ideal_organ_poster_medium_size-rbc4727daccb94a47afc5f98bcf75ca70_z62p3_8byvr_1024.jpg

 

(Sorry!)

[whipped guy]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Vwx8biT702Q/VXRBP398UKI/AAAAAAAAAEc/WgfVrJaRI7k/s1600/OrganStops.jpg

 

http://rlv.zcache.com/my_ideal_organ_poster_medium_size-rbc4727daccb94a47afc5f98bcf75ca70_z62p3_8byvr_1024.jpg

 

(Sorry!)

No need to be sorry ! LOL! It reminds me of the fact that even though I was not a music major in college I did spend quite a bit of time at the School of Music. The piano practice rooms were open to all. However, there was a special room that was reserved only for special students and required a special key. It was the "Organ Room". I always wondered that the deal was and what actually happened in there. I guess now I know!

 

Of course we made quite a few jokes regarding what transpired in that room and many did involve the use of the stops and the pedals, and especially the swell pedal! The fact that it was virtually sound proof only added to the mystique!

 

Of course that reminds me of the punch-line to a joke about a cellist, "He played it between his legs." Unfortunately I can't recall the actual joke.

 

Still all kidding aside:

 

http://www.organduo.lt/home/6-tips-for-using-swell-pedal

[AdamSmith]

Your description of the Organ Room reminded me that at Salem College in Winston-Salem, NC, one of the practice organs (a small 2-manual Flentrop) was in a room by itself, and for whatever acoustic reasons, it did not have a case. The whole works were exposed. Thus fascinating to be able to watch all the trackers, rollers, etc. operate as it was played.

[tyro]

I'm the OP, in case y'all forgot.

 

I'm familiar with multiple organs. A good couple I met whilst I was in Medical School was big into the AGO and the OHS: Organ Historical Society. A nearby town, Worcester, MA, has the oldest four-manual tracker in existance, at least, from 1864. [As and aside, I had the left pull stops at the re-dedication concert in ? 1977. I misread the cues, and managed to turn two or three of the divisions off in the middle of the concert. Oops!]

 

Other notable instruments locally: Aeolian Skinner Opus 909, at All Saints. a 197? Noack at Trinity Lutheran. Aeolian-Skinner opus 940, Church of the Advent, Boston.

 

I'm at a point in my life where I know a HELL of a lot of the organ literature, but most of my knowledge is of the music, and not of the piece / composer. Liszt, Franck, Vierne, Widor.

 

As an aside: I happened to be in Paris for the re-dedication of the orgen at St. Eustache, in Les Halles, IN 1989. Trying to obtain a ticket to this event, and throwing custom to the wind, I attempted to cash in on a couple of acquaintances. I know Bill Self, organist of St. Thomas 5th Ave, from his days in worcester, and knew he was a protoge' of M. Duruffle, of Requiem fame.

 

When I arrived, I phoned Mme. Duruffle, and pronouced myself as a friend of her husband's protoge, William. A lovely 15 minute conversation occurred, during which I enquired about entry to the recital. "Oh, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a ticket!" she exclaimed. "Even I cannot get a ticket!" We signed off with well wishes shortly thereafter.

 

The day of the Recital, there were about 5,000 people in Les Halles, sitting and waiting. THere was a 30-40' screen against the south transept, and the BIGGEST pile of speakers I've ever seen. I assume, if you're going to re-produce organ music, your speakers have to be BIG. It was a lovely recital, although the sitting organist, Jean Guillou, has a tendency to voice things at 4' and 16', leaving the 8' to fend for themselves. When the Thurifer offered the Thurible to someone .... I couldn't tell if it was a politico or a religico ... it was all shown on the screen, and met with GALES of laughter.

 

As for the Noack: I met the Man Who I Should Have Married, bent over the Hooded Trumpet in the Swell. He had on a pink shirt and tight, light blue jeans. Sigh.

 

I've never been a keyboardist: I'm much better as a tenor. As in: Tanglewood Festival CHorus, seasons 2,3,4;6;8. Did Carnegie Hall before I was 25.

 

ANd for you religious nuts: When I was at THe Advent, Boston, we sang "The Secret Sins" but I can't remember which Renaissance english dude it was. It went up to a high Bflat or B. The alto couldn't sing it.

I got to do the alto solo. Afterwards, the Celecbrant asked, "Did you sing that solo?" "yes, why?" I answered. " It was the most AMAZING thing I've ever heard."

 

PS I'm off to listen to Mozart's Requiem. I performed it with the late Sir Colin Davis once, and it was one of the most moving moments of my life.

You wuz a BEAST, yo!

How have you been feeling, Sir G?

T

[whipped guy]

Your description of the Organ Room reminded me that at Salem College in Winston-Salem, NC, one of the practice organs (a small 2-manual Flentrop) was in a room by itself, and for whatever acoustic reasons, it did not have a case. The whole works were exposed. Thus fascinating to be able to watch all the trackers, rollers, etc. operate as it was played.

We always wanted to see what the deal was with the Organ Room and what the organ itself looked like, but the small window in the door was covered (perhaps to isolate the sound?) and that only added to the mystery of the place.

[+ friendofsheila]

I have only a short time at a computer, so I was unable to scan to see if these points have already been covered (sorry):

 

1) I understand that harpsichords are very, very quiet. I wouldn't expect to get your party-goers all het up with a rousing chorus of anything.

 

2) You say you are not a keyboardist yet. Unless you have disposable income that could choke a chimney, a significant investment in an touchy, wispy instrument might be a tremendous build-up for a commitment you're not aware of yet. Maybe getting good at a different keyboard first would be a less-expensive start?

 

That said, I envy you. I've always fancied owning a celeste, even though I don't play a keyboard yet.

[body2body]

If you are concerned about the volume produced by the harpsichord, you could try to find one of harpsichords on steroids that Wanda Landowska had built by Pleyel in Paris. These oversized instruments were created so they could be heard in a concert hall. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PleyelGrandModeleDeConcert.JPG

[AdamSmith]

1) I understand that harpsichords are very, very quiet.

 

Not necessarily.

 

[whipped guy]

Since she was mentioned above Landowska playing the Bach Concerto in the Italian Style which is my all time favorite Bach solo harpsichord piece. Not the sound of an authentic instrument of Bach's era, but interesting nonetheless.

 

 

Another version with Christophe Rousset that is more historically informed.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLd3UAi2Ptk

[body2body]

Pablo Casals once criticized Landowska's approach to playing Bach, to which she replied " You play Bach your way, and I'll play Bach His way".

[AdamSmith]

Art of Fugue, harpsichord four hands, Ton Koopman & Tini Mathot.

 

 

This and Glenn Gould's performance on organ are my two favorite recordings of this.

 

[+ quoththeraven]

Always learning new things. I was not aware that Gould played the organ, let alone had been recorded playing it.

[AdamSmith]

Always learning new things. I was not aware that Gould played the organ, let alone had been recorded playing it.

 

This is the only recording of him on organ that I know of, and I think the only one he ever made. Even here, he did not finish recording all the contrapuncti in the time slot they had access to this organ, what with his penchant for endless retakes. It came out in 1962, and got withering reviews; one reviewer compared him to a circus seal tootling his bank of horns. Took quite a while for critical taste to come around (such as it has).

 

 

[+ friendofsheila]

Not necessarily.

 

 

Anything can be amplified for commercial release.

[whipped guy]

Anything can be amplified for commercial release.

There is an Archive recording of Trevor Pinnock performing Bach's Two and Three Part Inventions that was recorded at such a high level that it rivals any recording of the 1812 Overture in decibels! The microphones must have been placed inside the harpsichord.

 

The MET Opera has been known to amplify the harpsichord used in recitatives. I'm not sure if they have ever admitted to doing it.

[AdamSmith]

The Flentrop organ in Harvard's Busch Hall sounds quite different in person, and to my ear a lot better, than on Biggs's Columbia recordings. I heard he pressed the engineers to place the mikes a good bit closer to the organ than they were inclined to do, in order to emphasize (over-emphasize) the clear articulation etc. of that instrument compared with older-style organs people were used to then (that instrument inaugurated 1959).

[whipped guy]

The Flentrop organ in Harvard's Busch Hall sounds quite different in person, and to my ear a lot better, than on Biggs's Columbia recordings. I heard he pressed the engineers to place the mikes a good bit closer to the organ than they were inclined to do, in order to emphasize (over-emphasize) the clear articulation etc. of that instrument compared with older-style organs people were used to then (that instrument inaugurated 1959).

Microphone placement can make or break a recording, or possibly falsify what would normally be heard in concert setting. Years ago the Metropolitan Opera did a TV simulcast where the microphones were placed virtually in the brass section. A week later the same forces performed the same piece and with different microphone placement for their weekly radio broadcast that did not emphasize the brass section and it sounded as if it were performed by a totally different conductor and orchestra.

 

Personally I like some space around the performers so as to replicate how the music might sound in actual space. Still recordings can give a front row center vs. balcony perspective and everything in between. What I don't like is when the microphones are virtually placed within the instrument. As an example there should really be no stereo separation of the treble and bass in a piano (or harpsichord) recording, but rather how the sound reverberates within a given space. In the Trevor Pinnock recording that I referenced above one could hear the mechanism of the instrument producing the sound. That's a bit way up too close and personal and is something that possibly not even the player would normally hear!

[+ honcho]

(TMI and somewhat off-topic. I record other people concerts for them and have been doing since 1986. I'm not an electrical nor acoustical engineer by training but the guys who are seem to think I haven't gotten it wrong by osmosis)

 

The Flentrop organ in Harvard's Busch Hall sounds quite different in person, and to my ear a lot better, than on Biggs's Columbia recordings. I heard he pressed the engineers to place the mikes a good bit closer to the organ than they were inclined to do, in order to emphasize (over-emphasize) the clear articulation etc. of that instrument compared with older-style organs people were used to then (that instrument inaugurated 1959).

 

It is true that air (especially humidity) tends to damp out higher frequencies more than lower ones, and the chaff

in a tracker organ sound on the attack of notes will tend to be more obscured the further away from the instrument one listens, or records. I've never been in Busch hall, so I can't comment about the size, amount of reverberation, etc. there but it is certainly the case that standing next to musical instruments generally sounds different than being

seated in the middle of even a moderate sized concert venue, so I understand why Biggs desire to have it recorded nearby to emphasize that difference.

 

 

There is an Archive recording of Trevor Pinnock performing Bach's Two and Three Part Inventions that was recorded at such a high level that it rivals any recording of the 1812 Overture in decibels! The microphones must have been placed inside the harpsichord.

 

It is extremely easy to "amplify" a quiet recording digitally without having to resort to placing the microphones

inside an instrument. When one does that, however, one is at risk for amplifying other sounds, like people talking outside in the hallway, planes passing overheard, subways passing a few stories underneath ... (as apparently

happened when Sony engineers recorded a test run in carnegie hall to demonstrate to the Phillips folks, and

they initially couldn't understand why there was very low-frequency noise present in the very first-ever compact

disc.)

[whipped guy]

It is extremely easy to "amplify" a quiet recording digitally without having to resort to placing the microphones

inside an instrument. When one does that, however, one is at risk for amplifying other sounds, like people talking outside in the hallway, planes passing overheard, subways passing a few stories underneath ... (as apparently

happened when Sony engineers recorded a test run in carnegie hall to demonstrate to the Phillips folks, and

they initially couldn't understand why there was very low-frequency noise present in the very first-ever compact

disc.)

Joan Sutherland's famous Art of the Prima Donna album recorded in Covent Garden infamously features rumblings from the London Tube. The engineers were not overly concerned as in 1960 the rumble of the needle passing through the grooves would mask the rumble from the subway. When the album was released on CD the extent of the rumbling was there in its full glory. In the recent remastering of the complete recordings of Maria Callas the sound of a motor cycle outside of La Scala was digitally excised from her 1960 recording of Bellini's Norma.

[AdamSmith]

It is true that air (especially humidity) tends to damp out higher frequencies more than lower ones, and the chaff

in a tracker organ sound on the attack of notes will tend to be more obscured the further away from the instrument one listens, or records. I've never been in Busch hall, so I can't comment about the size, amount of reverberation, etc. there but it is certainly the case that standing next to musical instruments generally sounds different than being

seated in the middle of even a moderate sized concert venue, so I understand why Biggs desire to have it recorded nearby to emphasize that difference.

 

That was exactly Biggs's interest in having it miked that way. But Busch Hall, a stone interior with zero muffling, is plenty reverberant. But then it is also a fairly small or rather middle-sized space, without endless reverb like a large cathedral. The chiffs and other fine details of the speaking are plenty clear in person, but the organ sound also attains a unison and blending that doesn't really come through on the recordings, but could have, had it been miked more judiciously, I think.

 

In fact Biggs's interest in emphasizing the chiff in the then-novel Flentrop sound (everything old is new again) veered toward the pathological. Dirk Flentrop told me one time (I had pressed him with my suspicions about this) that he gave in somewhat to Biggs leaning on him to voice some of the most susceptible ranks with an exaggerated, overstated chiff. In fact he said it had long been in the back of his mind to send someone to Cambridge to re-voice a few of those stops to take the edge off those chiffs!

 

PS Just noticed this from Grove on the trend: "Why, for instance, did a well-preserved 17th- or 18th-century Principal pipe speak with a full ‘bloom’ and just the smallest amount of ‘chiff’ when its neo-Baroque counterpart coughed prominently before settling into a rather thin and sizzly tone?"

[AdamSmith]

Little bit of Couperin performed by Michel Chapuis on an exquisite old (1754) Riepp organ in the cathedral of Dole in the Jura. You can hear proper, subtly voiced chiffs on some ranks, and interestingly Chapuis had this miked so that you also hear the key drops and the mechanism operating, just as the performer would.

 

 

http://www.pleasuresofthepipes.info/images/pierremarteau2a_01.jpg

 

Videos of more performances on this instrument: http://www.pleasuresofthepipes.info/Dole-NotreDame.html

[whipped guy]

I think that many performers want their recordings to mirror what they themselves hear. This is especially true of conductors who are used to hearing the sound from the podium and not how the sound resonates in a hall. Of course the classic example is Toscanini who for better or worse insisted on being recorded so as to emphasize the brightness, clarity, and precision that he heard from the podium. Consequently the effects of how the sound would normally resonate and reverberate through a concert hall was totally eliminated in his recordings. It has been said that the infamous analytical sound of NBC's Studio 8H did him a disservice. Actually that is precisely the type of sound that Toscanini wanted in his recordings this being an Italian trait. Indeed Italian composers from Rossini, through Verdi, to Respighi indeed emphasized clarity in their orchestrations. This as opposed to the plush and expansive sound of a Brahms, Thciakovsky, or Wagner. Some have said that with Italian music the result was overly dry and analytical. With the other romantics the plush quality was replaced with a hardness that did the music a disservice by eliminating all warmth. However, this is precisely the sterile type of sound that for better or worse Toscanini wanted to achieve.

 

What is most interesting concerns singers who are only hearing their voice as it resonates within their own being in addition to what they hear around them. More than one singer has complained that their recordings don't sound at all like what they are used to hearing.

 

With an organ in a Cathedral the player certainly would not hear the same thing that that listeners in a vast space would hear. They certainly would not hear the mechanism as preserved in the above posted recording! Indeed the other recordings of the instrument give a different sound and perspective.

[AdamSmith]

WG, your notes made me remember that Chapuis wrote somewhere that he specifically wanted these videos he has been making over several recent years to give listeners/viewers a sense of what performance feels like to the organist. As opposed to the 'conventional' recorded sound on his many discs. On YouTube he has many other similar videos of himself performing, a lot of them in a series he titled 'Notes Personnelles.'

 

P.S. I see they are available on CD: http://www.amazon.com/Notes-personnelles-vol-Michael-Chapuis/dp/B000NOK1K2

[AdamSmith]

P.P.S. He is my favorite organist of all of them. I love how these videos show that, for all his musicianship, he feels no need of typical organist body-language showmanship. But just focused on playing. (Such as frequently looking down to check positioning of his feet on these old, very non-AGO-conforming pedalboards! Flat, straight, narrow, the sharp keys with little overhanging hooks to get your toes caught under...!)