Bruce Jenner

[foxy]

Apparently his transition will become a reality show. On the one hand this seems like Jenner is using this for more publicity as a celebrity which will make him some serious money. But supposedly he's already worth 100 million so I'd like to think he isn't doing it for the money. I suppose being in the limelight is a heady drug not easily relinquished. It's self exploitation but why not? Hopefully it will be a serious attempt at shining a light on a complicated issue and bring some understanding to all of us. Whatever I admire his courage. I'll watch the show if only to see what his fashion choices are. Some big name designer should jump on that band wagon and give him some good threads.

[+ WilliamM]

Apparently his transition will become a reality show. On the one hand this seems like Jenner is using this for more publicity as a celebrity which will make him some serious money. But supposedly he's already worth 100 million so I'd like to think he isn't doing it for the money. I suppose being in the limelight is a heady drug not easily relinquished. It's self exploitation but why not? Hopefully it will be a serious attempt at shining a light on a complicated issue and bring some understanding to all of us. Whatever I admire his courage. I'll watch the show if only to see what his fashion choices are. Some big name designer should jump on that band wagon and give him some good threads.

 

foxy, Having now watch most of the interview, my guess is that Bruce Jenner enjoys the limelight as much as the money. He was very much at ease during most of the Sawyer interview, good for him I guess.

[foxy]

Bruce Jenner I think we can all agree was a gorgeous guy and I suppose an American hero with his athletic abilities. I admit to being a little turned off by his appearance during the interview. Not that he was transitioning to become a woman but the plastic surgery he's had so far has not been very successful or flattering. Shallow as this is, which I admit to, wouldn't it be wonderful if he became a beautiful woman and not some freakish Michael Jackson. I know it's the beauty inside that's the most important but I think we all have to admit physical beauty is pretty good too. He's got the money. Hire the best plastic surgeons money can buy and make the world say "wow"! She looks good.

[+ WmClarke]

It is a big-time issue to the point where there is an acronym for transphobic radfems: TERF (trans-exc;usionary radical feminist). (Not all radfems are TERFs, but all TERFs are radfems.) It's led well-known TERF Meghan Murphy to criticize a recent Allure photograph of a nude Laverne Cox as follows:

 

https://archive.is/Kfzc4

 

A representative excerpt:

 

If women or transwomen were truly allowed to love themselves, I doubt they’d be spending thousands and thousands of dollars sculpting their bodies in order to look like some cartoonish version of “woman,” as defined by the porn industry and pop culture. The fact that Cox’s body is seen as “subversive” because she is trans doesn’t change that. Her body doesn’tlook subversive. It looks like any other objectified female body, sculpted by surgery and enhanced by Photoshop.

 

As for Bruce Jenner, I think she looks fine as a woman. (I'm using female pronouns because the process of transitioning has begun, but until another name is provided, it's likely Bruce will be referred to as "he" by most.) Like Laverne Cox, she is taller than the average woman, which may make something of a difference to how likely it is people will identify her as a woman. Like the trans woman who was liturgist at church on Easter Sunday (probably a coincidence, but who knows?) and who transitioned a couple of years ago while in her late 50s, she has a squarish jaw, which explains the tracheal shave she reportedly underwent. (I think my friend has had one as well.) But really it's no business of ours other than to be aware that she's transitioning and to show her our support. I wish her the best.

 

Those who had gender reassignment surgery in the early days like Christine Joregenson and Renee Richards were viewed more as medical oddities than as the dangers to society trans people have subsequently been widely viewed as. Nowadays it may be less common for trans people to undergo bottom (i.e., sexual reassignment/genital) surgery, especially trans men, though the vast majority undergo the kind of hormone treatment Jenner has already begun.

 

Thanks for the info. and your insights on this issue.

 

What saddens me is this notion:

 

... the dangers to society trans people have subsequently been widely viewed as....

 

"Dangers to society"--sadly, I think you are correct in how large segment of the general population perceives trans individuals. As gay men and woman become more accepted, is this just the shifting of "the other" status to a smaller (and, thus, more easily bullied/discriminated against) group?

[foxy]

I think with LBGT it's always been the T that wasn't really given serious attention. So whatever we might feel Bruce has really dragged it out of the closet.

[+ quoththeraven]

Thanks for the info. and your insights on this issue.

 

"Dangers to society"--sadly, I think you are correct in how large segment of the general population perceives trans individuals. As gay men and woman become more accepted, is this just the shifting of "the other" status to a smaller (and, thus, more easily bullied/discriminated against) group?

 

You're welcome, and thank you. Yes, I think "other" status is shifting to a smaller group. As anotherjohnindupont said, it has the potential for making gay people seem mainstream. For one thing, there's been a lot of unnecessary hand-wringing about trans women who use bathrooms designated for women being safety risks because they're actually men, the implication being that trans women are going to rape ciswomen. Say what?!! But there's been a lot of progress on trans issues as well even if the progress is not as obvious or evident as the progress with respect to gay people.

 

In addition to the toxicity of TERFs, some of whom are lesbian separatists (as in keeping men at arm's length), some supposedly LGBT groups have in fact been all about the G (and sometimes the L) but not the B or the T. Sadly, the Human Rights Campaign has historically been one of the biggest culprits, doing things like asking trans protestors who were outside the Supreme Court during the oral argument in Windsor v. US as a show of support for Ms. Windsor and the other petitioners to move so they'd be less visible.

 

In addition to the trans woman from church, I met a trans man who's friends with my daughter, I know at least three trans people from LiveJournal, and two of my closest LiveJournal friends are parents of trans children. My daughter spent some time considering if she might be trans. So I've run into and read (and thought) a lot about trans issues in the last five to six years.

[Kenny]

Bigotry and discrimination, which Bruce's Republican Party not only supports but has written into its platform, is not just a "social issue." It's a world view.

I think there is a a difference between being Republican on most issues, and not agreeing with the Republican stance on a specific social issue. This is no different than Catholics who do not agree with the Pope on issue of gay marriage. For some individuals, it is more than they are willing to accept and they will leave the Republican Party (or Catholic church) and others will feel so strongly about the issue that they choose to remain a minority in the party and try to influence change from within.

[anotherjohnindupont]

Thanks for the info. and your insights on this issue.

 

What saddens me is this notion:

 

 

 

"Dangers to society"--sadly, I think you are correct in how large segment of the general population perceives trans individuals. As gay men and woman become more accepted, is this just the shifting of "the other" status to a smaller (and, thus, more easily bullied/discriminated against) group?

 

 

Trans=street hooker for a lot of americans

[anotherjohnindupont]

Bigotry and discrimination, which Bruce's Republican Party not only supports but has written into its platform, is not just a "social issue." It's a world view.

 

Amazing, hypocrisy!

[Samai139]

Did not watch the interview "live" but saw enough to feel more informed about trans-genderism, if there is such a word. My question may come from ignorance, but here it goes anyway: In the interview, or the parts that I saw, Jenner says he is not gay, he is heterosexual. OK, as a man he was attracted to women, married three of them and fathered children with all three (I guess?) Now he says he is a woman. Is he still attracted to women? Or being a woman is he now attracted to men? If he is as a woman attracted to women, doesn't that imply that he is a lesbian? Is he making a distinction between being gay and being a lesbian?

And please accept the fact that I am not being facetious or sarcastic, just genuinely curious.

[MiamiLooker]

Did not watch the interview "live" but saw enough to feel more informed about trans-genderism, if there is such a word. My question may come from ignorance, but here it goes anyway: In the interview, or the parts that I saw, Jenner says he is not gay, he is heterosexual. OK, as a man he was attracted to women, married three of them and fathered children with all three (I guess?) Now he says he is a woman. Is he still attracted to women? Or being a woman is he now attracted to men? If he is as a woman attracted to women, doesn't that imply that he is a lesbian? Is he making a distinction between being gay and being a lesbian?

And please accept the fact that I am not being facetious or sarcastic, just genuinely curious.

 

I believe his explanation was that he considers his gender and his sexuality as two separate things.

[mike carey]

(Noting that Bruce still wants to use male pronouns) If he is still attracted to women, and if he identifies as a woman that would imply that he is same-sex attracted, but he is entitled to use any description he likes. It's the rest of us who have to cope with any ambiguity in that.

[+ quoththeraven]

The ambiguity may have something to do with his genitals and external appearance. While he experiences himself as a female, he's still outwardly "male" in ways most relevant to sex and sexuality even though he is, as I understand it, taking hormones and has been for the past year or so.

 

Even though I have transgender friends, I still balk at the concept of a "male brain" or a "female brain." This is too close to the old canard that women are unable to keep up with men intellectually and their brains will overheat if they do (short answer: NOT TRUE) for me. Think of oneself as female or male, feel female or male, that I can understand without resort to gender essentialism. Male and female brains, just no. For one thing, gender differences in the brain may only be male or female because we think them so. The brain is plastic and changes in response to environmental cues. There's no way to tell whether so-called brain differences (some of which don't exist anyway) are inherent or are conditioned.

[Samai139]

(Noting that Bruce still wants to use male pronouns) If he is still attracted to women, and if he identifies as a woman that would imply that he is same-sex attracted, but he is entitled to use any description he likes. It's the rest of us who have to cope with any ambiguity in that.

I guess that's probably the best answer I'll get. I can cope with his preferring to be called by male pronouns and heterosexual. Still mulling over his explanation that gender and sexuality are different areas.

Thanks for helping me understand this.

[+ FreshFluff]

Even though I have transgender friends, I still balk at the concept of a "male brain" or a "female brain." This is too close to the old canard that women are unable to keep up with men intellectually and their brains will overheat if they do (short answer: NOT TRUE) for me.

 

I'm confused. Would you explain that again?

 

I think there how our brains function are probably the result of a number of factors, some of which are still unknown to science. Men and women likely differ on some of these dimensions, but there's a lot of room for variation in both genders. For example, women with higher levels of testosterone are more likely to choose riskier careers, like trading, with higher expected salaries.

 

Men with higher testosterone also tend to seek out risk. Remember the Abercrombie model thread? Those guys may have gambled in an attempt to appear more masculine, so they could compete with the male models.