Cenerentola at the Met: An Aria Encore Friday Night

[MrMiniver]

When Toscanini first came over from Italy to conduct at the Met, one of his major reforms was to abolish encores, on the theory that an encore disrupts the dramatic flow of the performance and emphasizes the artificiality of the entire enterprise. In my opinion, this was not a worthwhile reform. Opera is a show and inherently artificial, because people don't go through life singing. As long as the enterprise is not placing a high priority on dramatic verisimilitude, why not do encores if the audience response warrants it?

 

 

What was Bill Clinton's line about abortion? Safe, legal and rare ... same for encores. I don't want the drama interrupted. Of course, this is can belto or bel canto ... drama is often in short supply

[whipped guy]

One must remember that the Florez Fille encore was not confined to the MET. Prior to his Covent Garden and MET performances he pulled the stunt at the Teatro Carlo Felice in Genova which is preserved on a DVD which I have not seen. I'm not sure if the encore occurred at the Royal Opera. I have not seen the DVD of that either, but I do have a copy of the BBC radio broadcast and while I don't have it on hand for reference I don't recall there being an encore. He also did the encore at La Scala.

 

Now I know that when Florez performs Barbiere it is written into his contract that he perform "Cessa di più resistere". Could it be possible that allowing encores could also be in a contract??? Just a thought.

[Andy2]

The War of the Tenors?

 

Here is another thought to add to the ongoing Drama of the Camarena Encores:

 

Juan Diego Florez is supposed to assume the role of Don Ramiro for the last three performances of Cenerentola. As noted by an earlier post, it remains to be seen how many (if any) of those performances he will actually make.

 

Once (or if) he takes on that role, the two Camarena encores put pressure on JDF, right? He is a Big Bel Canto Star, and if he does not perform at least one encore he will have been eclipsed by an aging lesser-known tenor.

 

So I'd like to be a fly on the wall when JDF's Agent negotiates with Gelb or the Conductor (Will Fabio Luisi be conducting the remainder of the performances?) to figure out the circumstances under which JDF will do an encore.

 

As others have posted, the aria “Si, ritrovarla io guiro" (Yes, I swear I’ll find her) is a very difficult aria--and so one that allows a superior tenor to show off his range and/or his ability to hit and sustain an impossible note. Will JDF be up to the challenge? He has a great voice and wonderful range well-suited to these bel canto operas--but does he have the subtlety to modulate the high notes with the splendor I heard last Friday from Camarena?

 

We shall see. Or hear . . . .

[whipped guy]

Here is another thought to add to the ongoing Drama of the Camarena Encores: .... We shall see. Or hear . . . .

My thoughts exactly... I say JDF gets the encore or there's no deal!!!! ...and if so who will sing it better!!!!???? We shall indeed see. Or hear...

[MrMiniver]

One must remember that the Florez Fille encore was not confined to the MET. Prior to his Covent Garden and MET performances he pulled the stunt at the Teatro Carlo Felice in Genova which is preserved on a DVD which I have not seen. I'm not sure if the encore occurred at the Royal Opera. I have not seen the DVD of that either, but I do have a copy of the BBC radio broadcast and while I don't have it on hand for reference I don't recall there being an encore. He also did the encore at La Scala.

 

Now I know that when Florez performs Barbiere it is written into his contract that he perform "Cessa di più resistere". Could it be possible that allowing encores could also be in a contract??? Just a thought.

 

No, it's not in his contract. He did it at Covent Garden but they didn't film that performance. Just like the MET HD of Fille didn't have the encore (a major missed opportunity). I quibble with your use of the word "stunt" although I'm guessing you didn't really mean it that way

[MrMiniver]

Here is another thought to add to the ongoing Drama of the Camarena Encores:

 

Juan Diego Florez is supposed to assume the role of Don Ramiro for the last three performances of Cenerentola. As noted by an earlier post, it remains to be seen how many (if any) of those performances he will actually make.

 

Once (or if) he takes on that role, the two Camarena encores put pressure on JDF, right? He is a Big Bel Canto Star, and if he does not perform at least one encore he will have been eclipsed by an aging lesser-known tenor.

 

So I'd like to be a fly on the wall when JDF's Agent negotiates with Gelb or the Conductor (Will Fabio Luisi be conducting the remainder of the performances?) to figure out the circumstances under which JDF will do an encore.

 

As others have posted, the aria “Si, ritrovarla io guiro" (Yes, I swear I’ll find her) is a very difficult aria--and so one that allows a superior tenor to show off his range and/or his ability to hit and sustain an impossible note. Will JDF be up to the challenge? He has a great voice and wonderful range well-suited to these bel canto operas--but does he have the subtlety to modulate the high notes with the splendor I heard last Friday from Camarena?

 

We shall see. Or hear . . . .

 

And that possible scenario turns me off even more. Pitting two artists against each other in that way is disgusting. And I'm guessing Florez wants NO part of it .... he's one of the classiest people you'll ever meet and very smart artistically and I think he'd find this whole thing offensive.

 

My guess is ... based on some of what I've heard and some of my own conjecture ... is that Florez is not coming back for the final 3 performances and they are building all this nonsense up knowing full well that Camarena is doing the HD and they don't want disappointment so they are manufacturing this hype. I hope I'm wrong and will be happy to be proved wrong when/if Florez shows up .... but I have a sneaking suspicion that's what is going on.

 

It's a shabby way to treat one of your biggest stars who has given more than a decade to your house.

[+ WilliamM]

I have an truly awful seat for the afternoon performance on May 10; there are worse, but not much worse. If Florez does not sing in the last performances of Cenerentola, I would be inclined to see something else perhaps a Broadway show. I like the opera, but have seen it often. Nothing to do with the Camarena encores per se.

[whipped guy]

No, it's not in his contract. He did it at Covent Garden but they didn't film that performance. Just like the MET HD of Fille didn't have the encore (a major missed opportunity). I quibble with your use of the word "stunt" although I'm guessing you didn't really mean it that way

Well, not a stunt in the bad sense of the word!!! Stunt as in displaying one's skills as opposed to the inhibition of growth... One never wants to go there... and especially not in this forum!

 

Regarding JDF's London performances, I heard two different audio broadcasts from Covent Garden. I saved the one that I thought was the better performance and burned it to CD. I just realized that I have that performance on an external hard drive... I am away from my normal home base, but I do bring music with me to transfer to my iPod and iPad. If I get the chance I will check to see if it has the encore. As I noted in my original post I could not remember, but I doubt that it does.

[whipped guy]

Well curiosity got the best of me as I just checked that London Fille broadcast from 2007 and there is no encore. The other broadcast that I heard certainly did not have the encore or I would have saved it. However, I should have saved myself the trouble. Two sources that I just checked stated that Florez never did the encore in London... Opera Chic and The Guardian. I think he did do it in Vienna, but again not for the broadcast.

 

We shall see what happens with Cenerentola!

 

Now back to the sunshine...

[MrMiniver]

Well, not a stunt in the bad sense of the word!!! Stunt as in displaying one's skills as opposed to the inhibition of growth... One never wants to go there... and especially not in this forum!

 

Regarding JDF's London performances, I heard two different audio broadcasts from Covent Garden. I saved the one that I thought was the better performance and burned it to CD. I just realized that I have that performance on an external hard drive... I am away from my normal home base, but I do bring music with me to transfer to my iPod and iPad. If I get the chance I will check to see if it has the encore. As I noted in my original post I could not remember, but I doubt that it does.

 

I don't believe that either the broadcast or telecast CG Fille has the encore although he did there on other occasions. You'd think that those were the performances they'd get him to do it ... but no ... I think only the Genova (?) preserves him doing the encore. I love that Pelly production by the way.

[MrMiniver]

Well curiosity got the best of me as I just checked that London Fille broadcast from 2007 and there is no encore. The other broadcast that I heard certainly did not have the encore or I would have saved it. However, I should have saved myself the trouble. Two sources that I just checked stated that Florez never did the encore in London... Opera Chic and The Guardian. I think he did do it in Vienna, but again not for the broadcast.

 

We shall see what happens with Cenerentola!

 

Now back to the sunshine...

 

You could be right although the Guardian is not a source I trust. I could have sworn I heard him do it there but I've heard it so many times that I could just be confused. That happens a lot

[whipped guy]

You could be right although the Guardian is not a source I trust. I could have sworn I heard him do it there but I've heard it so many times that I could just be confused. That happens a lot

Well I know something about being confused as well! Interestingly I did not trust Opera Chic, but thought the Guardian more reputable... No biggie either way!

[MrMiniver]

Well I know something about being confused as well! Interestingly I did not trust Opera Chic, but thought the Guardian more reputable... No biggie either way!

 

The Guardian has an agenda. Unreliability often goes hand in hand with agendas

[whipped guy]

I have an truly awful seat for the afternoon performance on May 10; there are worse, but not much worse. If Florez does not sing in the last performances of Cenerentola, I would be inclined to see something else perhaps a Broadway show. I like the opera, but have seen it often. Nothing to do with the Camarena encores per se.

Good seat... or bad seat... Florez... or Camarena... As I posted in the other thread the rest of the cast is totally top notch. It is by far the best performance of the piece I have ever heard live and while I have not seen it often live I do go back as far as Valentini Terrani, Alva, Montarsolo, etc. in the classic Jean-Pierre Ponnelle production. While I liked that concept better than the MET's staging (Alidoro's aria in particular with its larger than life shadow effects), and Valentini Terrani was a favorite in the role, overall the improvement in the male vocalists over the years makes the MET's current production a must see. Add in Joyce DiDonato and it's a no brainier. Vocally speaking it was light years ahead of the last time that I saw the piece live which was when the production was new. Personally I would go for it.

 

Surprisingly, prior to the appearance of Alberto Zedda's critical edition, I absolutely hated the opera. It seemed loud, boisterous, and uncouth, and I have always loved Rossini. Perhaps I was influenced by Stendhal who disliked it. However, when Rossini's original orchestration was reinstated and the spurious percussion eliminated the composer's original concept fell perfectly into place. Of course the big find was Alidoro's aria that was added two years after the premiere and had not been performed for many years. It added not only another dimension to Alidoro's character, but to the entire work itself. We were now dealing with forces larger than life. That the aria is written in a grand and more semi-seria style forces one to see that other aspects of the score emphasize that concept as well. Obviously I have come to love and appreciate the piece.

 

Incidentally, there is a CD as well as a DVD from Glyndebourne that emphasize the darker aspects of the score. They are of two different performances from two different years. The CD interestingly features original instruments and is on Glyndebourne's own label... One can hear that Rossini really knew what he was doing with his orchestration which features a prominent piccolo at the very top! Both are highly recommended.

[+ WilliamM]

Good seat... or bad seat... Florez... or Camarena... As I posted in the other thread the rest of the cast is totally top notch. It is by far the best performance of the piece I have ever heard live and while I have not seen it often live I do go back as far as Valentini Terrani, Alva, Montarsolo, etc. in the classic Jean-Pierre Ponnelle production. While I liked that concept better than the MET's staging (Alidoro's aria in particular with its larger than life shadow effects), and Valentini Terrani was a favorite in the role, overall the improvement in the male vocalists over the years makes the MET's current production a must see. Add in Joyce DiDonato and it's a no brainier. Vocally speaking it was light years ahead of the last time that I saw the piece live which was when the production was new. Personally I would go for it.

 

I had already reconsider my recent post and decided to attend before reading your comments. Your post underlined that I made the right decision. Thanks! I have the exact same seat as when I saw "Prince Igor," an opera I would have liked much more if I was closer to the stage. I never questioned the value of the opera and the cast. I know for the future (and should have known from past experience), never to buy such an awful seat again.

[+ Italiano]

Well, even if still a great Rossini tenor, JDF is not what he was only 3-4 years ago. His high notes now remind me of Alfredo Kraus' high notes from 80-90s on, with that nasal position and that start of a wobble. It happens, c'est la vie.

 

[whipped guy]

Well, even if still a great Rossini tenor, JDF is not what he was only 3-4 years ago. His high notes now remind me of Alfredo Kraus' high notes from 80-90s on, with that nasal position and that start of a wobble. It happens, c'est la vie.

 

 

Xaf.. Interesting comparison!!!!

 

I listened to the broadcast this afternoon (5/10/2014) and while there was no encore I was pleased with the high notes. However, I can hear what you are referencing in the YouTube clip... ( I thought he was better today in comparing the two) though Alfredo Kraus was never able to sustain something like a high C for as long as JDF does. Still I always considered Kraus to be one of the more aristocratic of tenors. Interestingly I compared today's rendition of that cabaletta to a commercially released live performance from the Rossini Opera Festival in Pesaro from 2000 and while the voice was a bit fresher the high notes were sustained longer and there was an embellishment of the repeat in today's performance. Voices change and interpretations change... that's what makes things interesting!

[MrMiniver]

Well, even if still a great Rossini tenor, JDF is not what he was only 3-4 years ago. His high notes now remind me of Alfredo Kraus' high notes from 80-90s on, with that nasal position and that start of a wobble. It happens, c'est la vie.

 

 

I'm sorry but that's nonsense. Kraus never had a voice as sweet as JDF's. Not ever. Not when he was 25. Florez has been an international star for 20 years. He shouldn't sound the same. Period.

[whipped guy]

I'm sorry but that's nonsense. Kraus never had a voice as sweet as JDF's. Not ever. Not when he was 25. Florez has been an international star for 20 years. He shouldn't sound the same. Period.

Mr.M... I agree that Krause never sounded as sweet as Florez. Even his earliest recordings by some small Spanish record company reveal a pleasant voice with some uncouth mannerisms. He did outgrow that fault and that's why I referred to him as "aristocratic". However, the voice was not the most mellifluous... always pleasing and perfect for Donizetti roles such as Edgardo, Nemorino, Tonio, Fernand(o), and Bellini's Arturo. Later in his career the highest notes were not as pleasant, but they were "there" as in his 1980's Fille recording with June Anderson... even in his 1973 Chicago performances of the piece opposite Sutherland the nine high c's never rang out like those of Florez or Pavoratti. Yet he had class.

 

I do agree with Zaph that in the YouTube encore video there is a slight wobble from Florez... But the note rings out more freely and is sustained longer than Krause would ever have been able to do. Still we all hear differently... and voices change and mature.

[+ Charlie]

Kraus's voice was never one of my favorites, especially in recordings, but in every performance I ever saw him in, he was preferable to anyone else I saw in the same role. "Aristocratic" is the adjective that also comes to my mind when I think about him.

[MrMiniver]

Mr.M... I agree that Krause never sounded as sweet as Florez. Even his earliest recordings by some small Spanish record company reveal a pleasant voice with some uncouth mannerisms. He did outgrow that fault and that's why I referred to him as "aristocratic". However, the voice was not the most mellifluous... always pleasing and perfect for Donizetti roles such as Edgardo, Nemorino, Tonio, Fernand(o), and Bellini's Arturo. Later in his career the highest notes were not as pleasant, but they were "there" as in his 1980's Fille recording with June Anderson... even in his 1973 Chicago performances of the piece opposite Sutherland the nine high c's never rang out like those of Florez or Pavoratti. Yet he had class.

 

I do agree with Zaph that in the YouTube encore video there is a slight wobble from Florez... But the note rings out more freely and is sustained longer than Krause would ever have been able to do. Still we all hear differently... and voices change and mature.

 

We may all hear differently but there are certain facts that are not really open to differing opinions. One concerns wobble. Often what some hear as a wobble is actually called "vibrato." Some may not like that sound but vibrato is not a wobble. I detect no "wobble" in JDF's voice whatsoever. I do think he's still getting over his illness and he's tired so he doesn't sound up to par to me but I didn't hear any wobbling and I wouldn't trust any microphone to accurately reflect that anyway ....

 

Also, I just don't see any comparison between Kraus and Florez and I love them both.

 

I guess I called it about today's encore. I just knew for some reason they wouldn't do it on the HD. Too bad, it would have been nice to preserve that. I don't think either JDF's Cenerentola encores was preserved as I don't think Sirius recorded either night. That's a shame.

[whipped guy]

We may all hear differently but there are certain facts that are not really open to differing opinions. One concerns wobble. Often what some hear as a wobble is actually called "vibrato." Some may not like that sound but vibrato is not a wobble. I detect no "wobble" in JDF's voice whatsoever. I do think he's still getting over his illness and he's tired so he doesn't sound up to par to me but I didn't hear any wobbling and I wouldn't trust any microphone to accurately reflect that anyway ....

 

Also, I just don't see any comparison between Kraus and Florez and I love them both.

 

I guess I called it about today's encore. I just knew for some reason they wouldn't do it on the HD. Too bad, it would have been nice to preserve that. I don't think either JDF's Cenerentola encores was preserved as I don't think Sirius recorded either night. That's a shame.

Indeed everyone hears differently. However where a healthy vibrato ends and a wobble begins differs among many individuals. I don't detect a wobble in JDF's basic voice. I did hear what I called a "slight wobble" in the final high C of the posted video. However, I did not detect it in the audio of the Hi-Def transmission. Stuff happens in performance. Perhaps you perceived it as vibrato. As for vibrato and wobble I like both Supervia and Callas. At times one can tolerate it... at times not... Often the singer has something to compensate for such "defects". Supervia had charm... and well Callas was Callas! As for Kraus vs. Florez I think that we are in agreement they are not the same, but Xaf obviously heard something (possibly something subtle) that was not overtly evident.

 

Incidentally, interesting how the so-called non-broadcast performance with the encore got posted on YouTube!!!! How did that happen!!!!????

[William]

For the record, JDF did appear as Don Ramiro, and he was enthusiastically received and (yes) did an encore in Act II. It is not clear to me that he has completely recovered from whatever illness (or tiredness) he was suffering from, but he was marvelous and the Charming Prince. (He looks the part more than Camarena did and is a much more charismatic performer and actor.)

 

Bravo Juan Diego, Bravo.

 

p.s. The smart money was that he would not do the encore for the simulcast today, and that proved to be the case.

[MrMiniver]

Indeed everyone hears differently. However where a healthy vibrato ends and a wobble begins differs among many individuals. I don't detect a wobble in JDF's basic voice. I did hear what I called a "slight wobble" in the final high C of the posted video. However, I did not detect it in the audio of the Hi-Def transmission. Stuff happens in performance. Perhaps you perceived it as vibrato. As for vibrato and wobble I like both Supervia and Callas. At times one can tolerate it... at times not... Often the singer has something to compensate for such "defects". Supervia had charm... and well Callas was Callas! As for Kraus vs. Florez I think that we are in agreement they are not the same, but Xaf obviously heard something (possibly something subtle) that was not overtly evident.

 

Incidentally, interesting how the so-called non-broadcast performance with the encore got posted on YouTube!!!! How did that happen!!!!????

 

I think a wobble is something that occurs throughout the voice and not just on a particular note. I think we'd call that a "hiccup!" LOL.

 

Re: the non-broadcast performance on youtube. Very simple explanation. When an HD is occurring, the always tape the prior performance for two reasons: in case of problems with the live HD telecast and in case they have to splice in anything for the DVD release.

[whipped guy]

I think a wobble is something that occurs throughout the voice and not just on a particular note. I think we'd call that a "hiccup!" LOL.

 

Re: the non-broadcast performance on youtube. Very simple explanation. When an HD is occurring, the always tape the prior performance for two reasons: in case of problems with the live HD telecast and in case they have to splice in anything for the DVD release.

Yep I know about the taping of non HD broadcast performances and have mentioned it here... An obvious example being Florez' opening solo in the Ory DVD was spliced in from another performance. However, it is interesting that someone from the MET obviously allowed the encore to be posted... either officially or clandestinely!!!!

 

Early on the Callas wobble occurred only on certain notes, usually the highest notes, while the rest of the voice was steady. Still, there is something called "wobble tolerance" some hear it as a wobble and others don't... As I have aged I have become more tolerant of the Callas wobble... is it my hearing or have I noticed how she was often able to turn something seemingly unpleasant into a dramatic asset... ???!!! Example: the high D that ends Act Two of the Berlin Lucia... it certainly underscores Lucia's emotional state!