Cenerentola at the Met: An Aria Encore Friday Night

[+ Italiano]

I'm sorry but that's nonsense. Kraus never had a voice as sweet as JDF's. Not ever. Not when he was 25. Florez has been an international star for 20 years. He shouldn't sound the same. Period.

 

Either I didn't express myself clearly or you read something that I didn't write. My comparison with Kraus was only referred to the high C, which now sounds VERY much alike to Kraus' high Cs in the second pat of his career, with that specific position with "help" of his nasal cavities (a very healthy position, by the way) and the slower vibrato. I heard Florez live in Sonnambula and didn't detect at all these characteristics. Yes, it could be the night of course, but "something" has changed. Compare any of his youtube "Dolce speranza" from 2000 to the one of a few days ago. His high C sounds the same before (till 2011), but now is "different".

It's not a criticism, we all age and something slowly (or fast for some..) change in our bodies. Florez still has lots to offer and years ahead to sing and delight audiences.

[MrMiniver]

Yep I know about the taping of non HD broadcast performances and have mentioned it here... An obvious example being Florez' opening solo in the Ory DVD was spliced in from another performance. However, it is interesting that someone from the MET obviously allowed the encore to be posted... either officially or clandestinely!!!!

 

Early on the Callas wobble occurred only on certain notes, usually the highest notes, while the rest of the voice was steady. Still, there is something called "wobble tolerance" some hear it as a wobble and others don't... As I have aged I have become more tolerant of the Callas wobble... is it my hearing or have I noticed how she was often able to turn something seemingly unpleasant into a dramatic asset... ???!!! Example: the high D that ends Act Two of the Berlin Lucia... it certainly underscores Lucia's emotional state!

 

The version I saw on Youtube was on the official MET channel. It was done, obviously, for publicity!

[MrMiniver]

Either I didn't express myself clearly or you read something that I didn't write. My comparison with Kraus was only referred to the high C, which now sounds VERY much alike to Kraus' high Cs in the second pat of his career, with that specific position with "help" of his nasal cavities (a very healthy position, by the way) and the slower vibrato. I heard Florez live in Sonnambula and didn't detect at all these characteristics. Yes, it could be the night of course, but "something" has changed. Compare any of his youtube "Dolce speranza" from 2000 to the one of a few days ago. His high C sounds the same before (till 2011), but now is "different".

It's not a criticism, we all age and something slowly (or fast for some..) change in our bodies. Florez still has lots to offer and years ahead to sing and delight audiences.

 

I heard you loud and clear. I heard Kraus from almost the beginning of his career to the end. Same with Florez. I haven't heard Florez sing a single note that sounded anything remotely like Kraus.

[whipped guy]

Either I didn't express myself clearly or you read something that I didn't write. My comparison with Kraus was only referred to the high C... Compare any of his youtube "Dolce speranza" from 2000 to the one of a few days ago. His high C sounds the same before (till 2011), but now is "different".

As noted above, I for some reason compared the final C from the Hi-Def broadcast with Pesaro 2000... even though I am away from my home base I travel with music and had it on an external hard drive... I know that I'm nuts... and the two notes sounded "different". The final high C from the "encore video" sounded even "more different"... as in not as secure... a bit unsteady... a wobble? Still exciting and at times a bit of imperfection adds excitement to a note as the listener is not sure if the singer will loose it or grasp onto it... Elsewhere I noted Callas' final high D at the conclusion of the second act of the Berlin Lucia. Another example that comes to mind is the final note of "Celeste Aida" in the MET broadcast with Bergonzi and Price... The note is initially unsteady, but Bergonzi regains his composure... and then makes the rarely heard requisite diminuendo. Not perfect... but definitely thrilling. (Now please don't come to the conclusion that I think that Florez and Bergonzi are the same!!!! LOL!)

[whipped guy]

I heard you loud and clear. I heard Kraus from almost the beginning of his career to the end. Same with Florez. I haven't heard Florez sing a single note that sounded anything remotely like Kraus.

I don't think anyone with ears thinks that they sound the same!!!! Xaf is referencing a vocal technique that produces the sound not the sound...

[+ Italiano]

I heard you loud and clear. I heard Kraus from almost the beginning of his career to the end. Same with Florez. I haven't heard Florez sing a single note that sounded anything remotely like Kraus.

 

I guess we have different kind of ears.

Peace.

[MrMiniver]

I don't think anyone with ears thinks that they sound the same!!!! Xaf is referencing a vocal technique that produces the sound not the sound...

 

Okay, now we're really in the weeds here. Perhaps it's something only a dog can hear

[+ Italiano]

Okay, now we're really in the weeds here. Perhaps it's something only a dog can hear

 

Or perhaps is something that you can't hear

[whipped guy]

Basta così! Enough already!

 

Well, I think we have beaten this into the ground. Let's put it on hold until February of 2015 when the MET will present Rossini's La Donna del Lago... an opera that features two tenors! JDF and John Osborne will appear in roles written for star tenors Giovanni David and Andrea Nozzari. Fortunately their leading lady is Joyce DiDonsto. There is a trio in the second that is the equivalent of "Dueling Banjos" at least as far as the two tenors are concerned... and it will be interesting to compare all those high notes above the staff and coloratura flourishes that appear in quick succession!!

 

Non vedo l'ora... I can't wait...

 

Until then...!!!! Hopefully...

[bostonman]

Well, I think we have beaten this into the ground. Let's put it on hold until February of 2015 when the MET will present Rossini's La Donna del Lago... an opera that features two tenors! JDF and John Osborne will appear in roles written for star tenors Giovanni David and Andrea Nozzari. Fortunately their leading lady is Joyce DiDonsto. There is a trio in the second that is the equivalent of "Dueling Banjos" at least as far as the two tenors are concerned... and it will be interesting to compare all those high notes above the staff and coloratura flourishes that appear in quick succession!!

 

Non vedo l'ora... I can't wait...

 

Until then...!!!! Hopefully...

 

And of course if they ever bring back Armida (but not with Fleming next time, I assume??), there's that wonderful "three tenors" trio to behold.

[whipped guy]

And of course if they ever bring back Armida (but not with Fleming next time, I assume??), there's that wonderful "three tenors" trio to behold.

LOL!! Yes, the Original Three Tenors!

 

Incidentally there is an Opera Rara CD release "Three Rossini Tenors" that features tenor scenes from the Neapolitan operas. It concludes with the Armida trio.

[MrMiniver]

Well, I think we have beaten this into the ground. Let's put it on hold until February of 2015 when the MET will present Rossini's La Donna del Lago... an opera that features two tenors! JDF and John Osborne will appear in roles written for star tenors Giovanni David and Andrea Nozzari. Fortunately their leading lady is Joyce DiDonsto. There is a trio in the second that is the equivalent of "Dueling Banjos" at least as far as the two tenors are concerned... and it will be interesting to compare all those high notes above the staff and coloratura flourishes that appear in quick succession!!

 

Non vedo l'ora... I can't wait...

 

Until then...!!!! Hopefully...

 

I really can't imagine how John Osborn is going to go over at the MET. He's used to singing in houses half the size of the MET. I have my doubts about him there ... but it's not like we have a lot of choices for that opera!

[MrMiniver]

Or perhaps is something that you can't hear

 

As I said (try reading perhaps) it's not about hearing. It's about taking two recordings of the same thing and comparing on a system that does just that. The system/computer doesn't lie. It can hear and compare much better than the human ear. The sound used in both recordings is EXACTLY the same.

[bostonman]

I really can't imagine how John Osborn is going to go over at the MET. He's used to singing in houses half the size of the MET. I have my doubts about him there ... but it's not like we have a lot of choices for that opera!

 

I'm not insinuating how they'll solve that, but it seems to be more than just rumor that Bartoli was amplified at the Met (gasp!). I wouldn't doubt that O'Hara will be as well...who knows? In any case, I don't have any inside knowledge, but I know it can be done if they want to.

[whipped guy]

Well somehow I knew that mentioning Osborn might elicit some interesting responses. Not to be a spoiler here.... but after the "Dueling Banjos" trio where JDF not only wins the vocal duel he then duels with Osborn off stage who promptly gets whacked!!!! Problem solved...

[whipped guy]

One more thought regarding John Osborn... I just realized that he was Goffredo in the Armida performances in 2010 and when it was reprised the following season. I don't recall having any difficulties hearing him. If anything I though that Fleming sounded a half-size too small for the part as she seemed to be holding back a bit. That's how I perceived things in the house as opposed to the broadcast/DVD release. Incidentally, Fleming was infinitely better the first season compared to the following year. I doubt that she would now go near the role even with a ten foot pole.

[Andy2]

Comparison of the Two Don Ramiros

 

As the posts on this thread indicate, the Forum enjoys several highly sophisticated, learned opera experts. Although a great opera fan, I do not have such a good ear for musical nuance. And so I have this question:

 

Compare the two Don Ramiros in the Met's production of Cenerentola. I saw Camarena (with an encore) in person and Florez on simulcast. I enjoyed the Met's production enormously, and especially DiDonato's rendition of the title character. Overall, the supporting cast was also excellent.

 

Comparing the two Don R's, my (less educated) view is that Florez is hard to match in terms of theatricality; I found his performance much more exciting than that of Camarena, especially in Act I. The great aria where Don R expresses his love for C. and vows to find her (supported by his chorus) turned my opinion around on Camarena: I thought he was excellent and handled the high notes with power and even passion. Florez was also excellent in that aria, performing it with his characteristic energy and aplomb. But I wonder whether Camarena did not excel even more in the aria.

 

The views of others? I realize that the same artist will perform the same aria differently on different nights, and that is why I specified the exact performances I was comparing.

[whipped guy]

I saw Camarena the night the show opened and was impressed. He is capable of far greater nuance than JDF. By that I mean that he was able to encompass a greater range of colors in his voice. He was able to sing more softly and falsetto-like in the "falling in love duet". To that he also had a nice use of a mixed voice... Furthermore, he is also capable of going up to the next level with a more heroic sound as evidenced but his final C in his aria. It was more massive than is often heard from tenors essaying the part. It was not held as long as that of JDF in the broadcast, and not as sweet, but definitely more powerful. Incidentally, he caressed the note more sweetly when it appears earlier in the aria and I liked his embellishments in the repeat of the cabaletta better than those of Florez. Incidentally those embellishments took him above the C!

 

My impressions of JDF are based solely on the audio broadcast, but the overall voice is much sweeter and the fioritura simply flows with at bit more ease from his vocal cords. If I had to make a comparison to two sopranos of the recent past... and this is only relative so don't read too much into it. Plus, I am choosing singers for my analogy with whom many would be familiar. I would say that Florez is a force of nature similar to a Joan Sutherland who was capable of effortlessly pouring out an endlessly beautiful sound. It can get a bit monotonous at times, but what a sound! (Now before anyone gets a bee in their bonnet, I and not saying that JDF has mushy diction, or unidiomatic italian. I am comparing the relative lack of a range of colors in their voices while praising their phenomenal technical capabilities). Florez also has a range from soft to loud but the colors in the voice remain relatively unchanged.

 

Regarding, Camarena he is more like a Caballe... She had a colorful voice and a range from beyond pianissimo to double forte, yet still (on a good day and when she felt up to it) could encompass anything Rossini would throw at her as evidenced by her "Rossini Rarities Album" from the late 1960's. Camarena similarly has a more colorful voice than Florez. Plus, he is more than capable of getting all those 32nd notes perfectly in place.

 

Regarding acting ability, Camarena looked the part, more or less... Not having seen Florez, but based on seeing him in a whole host of other operas, I would say that JDF would take the acting honors.

 

Those are my quick impressions in a nutshell... It's not a doctoral thesis as this forum is not the place for that. Hopefully it expresses how I heard things.

[William]

I saw Camarena the night the show opened and was impressed. He is capable of far greater nuance than JDF. By that I mean that he was able to encompass a greater range of colors in his voice. He was able to sing more softly and falsetto-like in the "falling in love duet". To that he also had a nice use of a mixed voice... Furthermore, he is also capable of going up to the next level with a more heroic sound as evidenced but his final C in his aria. It was more massive than is often heard from tenors essaying the part. It was not held as long as that of JDF in the broadcast, and not as sweet, but definitely more powerful. Incidentally, he caressed the note more sweetly when it appears earlier in the aria and I liked his embellishments in the repeat of the cabaletta better than those of Florez. Incidentally those embellishments took him above the C!

 

My impressions of JDF are based solely on the audio broadcast, but the overall voice is much sweeter and the fioritura simply flows with at bit more ease from his vocal cords. If I had to make a comparison to two sopranos of the recent past... and this is only relative so don't read too much into it. Plus, I am choosing singers for my analogy with whom many would be familiar. I would say that Florez is a force of nature similar to a Joan Sutherland who was capable of effortlessly pouring out an endlessly beautiful sound. It can get a bit monotonous at times, but what a sound! (Now before anyone gets a bee in their bonnet, I and not saying that JDF has mushy diction, or unidiomatic italian. I am comparing the relative lack of a range of colors in their voices while praising their phenomenal technical capabilities). Florez also has a range from soft to loud but the colors in the voice remain relatively unchanged.

 

Regarding, Camarena he is more like a Caballe... She had a colorful voice and a range from beyond pianissimo to double forte, yet still (on a good day and when she felt up to it) could encompass anything Rossini would throw at her as evidenced by her "Rossini Rarities Album" from the late 1960's. Camarena similarly has a more colorful voice than Florez. Plus, he is more than capable of getting all those 32nd notes perfectly in place.

 

Regarding acting ability, Camarena looked the part, more or less... Not having seen Florez, but based on seeing him in a whole host of other operas, I would say that JDF would take the acting honors.

 

Those are my quick impressions in a nutshell... It's not a doctoral thesis as this forum is not the place for that. Hopefully it expresses how I heard things.

 

Whipped,

 

This was a marvelous exegesis. I really appreciate it.

 

I wonder how many Forum Members are opera fans? Only a few have the level of sophistiction that Whipped and a few others have revealed.

 

Andy

[bostonman]

By the way, I want to mention that I saw the HD encore on Wednesday night. The music-making was wonderful throughout. BUT - I had never seen this production before (I know it's been around for a while now, but somehow I missed seeing it until now) - and I have to say, what a dismal, unfunny, cheap-looking production. What a shame - the singers (let alone the audience) deserve better.

[MrMiniver]

I'm not insinuating how they'll solve that, but it seems to be more than just rumor that Bartoli was amplified at the Met (gasp!). I wouldn't doubt that O'Hara will be as well...who knows? In any case, I don't have any inside knowledge, but I know it can be done if they want to.

 

After many years working with people at the MET I feel I can say, unequivocally, that no singer has ever been "amplified" at the MET. There are more of these kinds of rumors than Carter has pills. It simply isn't possible to do without the kinds of wholesale changes that simply are not happening there. You may occasionally see a mic or two but that's not for "amplification." That's for sound recording purposes for the HDs ....

[MrMiniver]

I saw Camarena the night the show opened and was impressed. He is capable of far greater nuance than JDF. By that I mean that he was able to encompass a greater range of colors in his voice. He was able to sing more softly and falsetto-like in the "falling in love duet". To that he also had a nice use of a mixed voice... Furthermore, he is also capable of going up to the next level with a more heroic sound as evidenced but his final C in his aria. It was more massive than is often heard from tenors essaying the part. It was not held as long as that of JDF in the broadcast, and not as sweet, but definitely more powerful. Incidentally, he caressed the note more sweetly when it appears earlier in the aria and I liked his embellishments in the repeat of the cabaletta better than those of Florez. Incidentally those embellishments took him above the C!

 

My impressions of JDF are based solely on the audio broadcast, but the overall voice is much sweeter and the fioritura simply flows with at bit more ease from his vocal cords. If I had to make a comparison to two sopranos of the recent past... and this is only relative so don't read too much into it. Plus, I am choosing singers for my analogy with whom many would be familiar. I would say that Florez is a force of nature similar to a Joan Sutherland who was capable of effortlessly pouring out an endlessly beautiful sound. It can get a bit monotonous at times, but what a sound! (Now before anyone gets a bee in their bonnet, I and not saying that JDF has mushy diction, or unidiomatic italian. I am comparing the relative lack of a range of colors in their voices while praising their phenomenal technical capabilities). Florez also has a range from soft to loud but the colors in the voice remain relatively unchanged.

 

Regarding, Camarena he is more like a Caballe... She had a colorful voice and a range from beyond pianissimo to double forte, yet still (on a good day and when she felt up to it) could encompass anything Rossini would throw at her as evidenced by her "Rossini Rarities Album" from the late 1960's. Camarena similarly has a more colorful voice than Florez. Plus, he is more than capable of getting all those 32nd notes perfectly in place.

 

Regarding acting ability, Camarena looked the part, more or less... Not having seen Florez, but based on seeing him in a whole host of other operas, I would say that JDF would take the acting honors.

 

Those are my quick impressions in a nutshell... It's not a doctoral thesis as this forum is not the place for that. Hopefully it expresses how I heard things.

 

For me, the differences are hard to put into words and the only way I know how to say it is this: Florez is an historic singer, once in a lifetime if that, who will have a permanent place in the history books. Camarena is a nice decent competent singer who doesn't have the complete technique that JDF has in this kind of music.

 

Also, I base that judgment on the fact that Florez has had a great international career in demand all over the world -- and was pretty much alone in that rep -- for the past 20 years and Camarena is only been on the international stage for 2-3 years. I don't think you can compare the Camarena of today with the Florez of today. It's simply not fair. Compare him to Florez in 1995. When you do that, there's no competition. Florez wipes the floor with him. Let's see where Camarena is in 2027. That would be a good comparison to Florez today.

 

My guess is we won't be doing that for one very simple reason: Florez will remain supreme in this rep because I believe that Camarena will move on from this rep in the next few years and his time in the same rep as JDF will be small. But, as I said, only time will tell.

 

He could turn out to be another Barry Banks.

[MrMiniver]

By the way, I want to mention that I saw the HD encore on Wednesday night. The music-making was wonderful throughout. BUT - I had never seen this production before (I know it's been around for a while now, but somehow I missed seeing it until now) - and I have to say, what a dismal, unfunny, cheap-looking production. What a shame - the singers (let alone the audience) deserve better.

 

 

I'll disagree completely. I don't think there is anything cheap about it and I find it quite witty, if not perfect, of course.

[bostonman]

After many years working with people at the MET I feel I can say, unequivocally, that no singer has ever been "amplified" at the MET.

 

Explain Nixon In China.

[bostonman]

I'll disagree completely. I don't think there is anything cheap about it and I find it quite witty, if not perfect, of course.

 

Sets - cheap. How about a damn PALACE instead of everything taking place in front of huge white doors, or in the corridor? The only difference I saw between Magnifico's run-down home and the Prince's palace is that the latter was cleaner. Some OPULENCE would have been nice - especially to help the perception that Magnifico and family have never seen the interior of the palace before. That wedding cake idea for the final scene must have sounded good on paper, but it looked awkward as a practical set piece (she didn't look that comfortable having to get up and down from it, etc.) Why was the male chorus so dark, joyless and creepy? Staging of moments like the "rolled r" sextet were just nonsensical and didn't add anything to the visual aspect of the moment (why the hell was Ramiro tying up his valet with the whole Magnifico family? etc), let alone that awful spaghetti scene at the end of Act I with the kindergarten-like game of musical chairs? (Sorry, make that pre-school.) Alidoro was, like the male chorus, so severe and joyless - the reveal of the "wings" was kinda funny, but not nearly whimsical enough - same goes for the whole production. I wouldn't exactly call this a "regie" staging, but it sure was dismal. (The comic abilities of the cast made some of even the the most tired schtick funny - like the way-overused "broken couch" bit - but really, this thing didn't look the least bit directed to me.) It really looked thrown together, like no one really wanted to spend any time and energy making it anything special. Thank god the music wasn't treated that way. (That has happened, in the recent past, very noticeably with Fledermaus, which was a musical shambles.)