Major Changes in Brazilian Saunas

[imrthr]

I returned to the U.S. two days ago after more than eighty different trips to Brazil. Over time, I got to know Brazil well. I also developed a routine that occupied my time during the day in Brazil and on certain nights of the week.

 

While not otherwise occupied with other matters, over the years I enjoyed visiting different saunas in various cities in Brazil.

 

While the larger cities still contain non sauna items of interest, sadly, the sauna scene in Sao Paulo, Rio, Recife and even Porto Alegre has markedly changed for the worse during the past couple of years.

 

The Brazil sauna scene that I knew only a couple of years ago no longer exists. Each visit to Brazil reinforces the fact that Brazil’s sauna scene is hurtling in the direction of the dinosaur with respect to garotos and extinction as I knew it in the past.

 

I could be wrong in my impression. However, I am in Brazil almost every month and have a reference point that confirms the negative changes I observed and report here.

 

During my latest trip, my favorite remaining sauna in Sao Paulo, Fragata, was fun and active only one night of the several nights I went there. I later learned the reason for the one night of heavy volume of clients and garotos was to “celebrate” another year of business for Fragata. It seems that Brazilians are always looking for any excuse to celebrate something.

 

Recently, each time I departed Brazil, I optimistically thought that when I return on my next trip, things will be back to the way they were in the past, but they are not and have not since approximately the last couple of years. And, it is getting worse with each trip.

 

Already pointed out by another poster in a different thread on this forum (Jake) inflation has hit the saunas. Inflation is not pleasant but it is not, for me, a “deal breaker” so to speak. What bothers me is the absence or lack of garotos. Quite simply, fewer new garotos are regularly visiting the saunas. Even Lagoa in Sao Paulo, except for a Wednesday and Friday night is generally quite disappointing lately.

 

In Porto Alegre, the previously fun Plataforma has become a ghost of what it formerly was. The sauna Mezzaninu is the only sauna that is presently worth the effort to visit while in Porto Alegre but, given the wrong day of the week, it is possible to find that sauna nearly empty and/or uninteresting.

 

In Recife, saunas - Boa Vista and Blue Termas, which were formerly fun and exciting places to visit have changed. Instead of saunas where one would easily meet a garoto, these saunas are now more like social clubs for older gays to sit around chatting with one another. Occasionally, a garoto appears in the room where the older gays sit and gossip with each other. Those garotos, which come to the sitting room, sometimes show interest in getting hired by a client but most of the garotos are primarily at the saunas to socialize with other garotos. These two saunas have become quite “cliquish” so to speak and have lost much of their previous lure.

 

Whether one chooses to accept or reject the fact of the changes in Brazil, it is foolish deny that the sauna scene in Brazil is not what it was in recent years. This is not to say that it is impossible to have a great time with a garoto. What it means is that compared to only a few years ago, it is less likely one will have a good a time in Brazil as one formerly could and that it is more difficult to find a garoto of the quality we once found without much effort.

 

Although I am scheduled to return to Brazil in early July, next week I will give Spain another try. Last year I went to Spain twice. Unfortunately, my first trip to Spain last year was at a bad time. I went to Madrid and it just so happened that when I got there, a “crack down” on sauna workers was in progress. It had to do with the local prostitutes complaining that they could not get work because the government would not enforce laws applicable to Brazilians and other foreign nationals overstaying their allotted time in Spain.

 

Even though Brazilians do not need a visa for Spain, they are still subject to the 180-day physical presence rule and many overstay their allotted time. The crackdown did not last long as eventually the police in Madrid found more productive things to do. But while I was there, my sauna entertainment was curtailed by the crack down.

 

My second trip last year to Spain involved only Barcelona. Sauna Thermas, in Barcelona, was fun and active and did not lack in workers from many parts of the world. There was no crack down at that time as this trip was about a month after my Madrid trip.

 

If the present trend in Brazil with the scarcity of garotos continues (and closing of some of the saunas), readers of this site might want to consider visiting Spain as an alternative to Brazil.

 

The unemployment rate in Spain is more than 20% and there are many workers from other countries at the saunas in Madrid and Barcelona. The high unemployment rate puts more guys available in the saunas.

 

Another reason one might chose to visit Spain over the present day Brazil are the costs in Brazil. It is now cheaper (and more fun) to visit Spain than it is to visit Brazil for reasons detailed above.

 

Brazil’s strong economy is probably the reason fewer garotos are visiting the saunas. Quite simply, many garotos previously worked in saunas because they could not find other work. Now that Brazil’s economy is doing very well, jobs are more plentiful particularly for manual labor. This, of course, removes many garotos from the sauna workforce.

 

Like I wrote above, it is still possible to have a good time in Brazil. However, the good times will not compare to what good times were available in the not too distant past. Clearly, the bloom is off the rose in Brazil at the present time.

-

[EZEtoGRU]

Thanks for your posting imrthr. I too am a frequent traveller to Brazil. I started a thread in July or August 2010 on this same topic which resulted in plenty of discussion. There is no question in my mind that the sauna scene in Brazil is in decline. I actually feel it has been in gradual decline for 5-6 years but really accelerated in 2010. Few new faces and the ones that are new are pretty dire. I did a trip to Rio/SP in July/August 2010 (which sparked my discussion thread afterwards) where I only connected 3 times with a sauna guy on a 6-7 day trip. Two times in SP Fragata with one of my regular guys I like. Amazingly, I did not hook up with anyone in Rio other than one of the employees at Point. The quality of the sauna guys in Rio was that bad!! I think this is all a result of the booming Brazil economy and that people are finding more lucrative legitimate employeement elsewhere.

 

Brazil has also become a very expensive place to travel in (especially in Rio and Sao Paulo). Hotel rates at 4-5 star hotels are sky high now in US dollar terms. Mostly a consequence of the strong Real against a weak US dollar.

 

I also discovered Spain last year and have now been four times. I think it is gaining on Brazil now in some ways. Having said that, I don't really like the sauna scene in Spain.....especially Adan in Madrid which to me is very dirty. Seems no-one cleans up there. I have a regular guy I see in Madrid and we pretty much just do the restaurant scene and some bars and then back to the hotel. I do like Black & White bar in Madrid as there is a decent male escort scene there.

 

I plan to return to Brazil in July or August this year. If I don't see major improvements, I plan to cut back on my Brazil trips to maybe once a year. I am afraid, its the end of an era in Brazil as far as the sauna scene goes.

[imrthr]

EZEtoGRU, Thank you for your honest reply

 

 

Thanks for your posting imrthr. I too am a frequent traveler to Brazil. I started a thread in July or August 2010 on this same topic which resulted in plenty of discussion. There is no question in my mind that the sauna scene in Brazil is in decline. I actually feel it has been in gradual decline for 5-6 years but really accelerated in 2010.

 

snip snip

 

- - - - The quality of the sauna guys in Rio was that bad!! I think this is all a result of the booming Brazil economy and that people are finding more lucrative legitimate employment elsewhere.

 

 

I am sure this has a lot to do with the changes that have occurred. In my long report that I posted previously, I mentioned the possibility that garotos are finding work which could be the reason for the decline in available guys in the saunas.

 

 

 

Brazil has also become a very expensive place to travel in (especially in Rio and Sao Paulo). Hotel rates at 4-5 star hotels are sky high now in US dollar terms. Mostly a consequence of the strong Real against a weak US dollar.

 

 

Again, I agree with your assessment because I have said the same thing in my long thread and in person to several friends who also agree that the costs in Brazil make visiting Brazil very expensive. There is no question that our weak dollar and inflation plus arbitrary increased prices in addition to normal inflation contribute to the fact that Rio and Sao Paulo are, in many cases, more expensive to visit than many cities in Europe.

 

Being expensive is not so bad if one could find what one found only a few years ago, but that is not the case.

 

 

I also discovered Spain last year and have now been four times. I think it is gaining on Brazil now in some ways. Having said that, I don't really like the sauna scene in Spain.....especially Adan in Madrid which to me is very dirty.

 

 

I too do not much care for Adan but it is the only rent-boy sauna in Madrid that I know. In addition to the lack of apparent cleanliness, the place is too small. However, the sauna is located in a decent area of Madrid not far from one of the nicest streets in Madrid (Gran Via).

 

In Barcelona, I do not like the set up at sauna Thermas but at least you find garotos similar to what we used to find in Brazil. By the way, you probably were aware that many of the sauna workers in Barcelona are Brazilian.

 

 

I do like Black & White bar in Madrid as there is a decent male escort scene there.

 

 

I have not been to Black & White. The next time I am in Madrid, I will look into it. If you have time, can you write a short brief about what part of the city it is located and a little about what one can expect if one were to visit the place?

 

 

I plan to return to Brazil in July or August this year. If I don't see major improvements, I plan to cut back on my Brazil trips to maybe once a year. I am afraid, its the end of an era in Brazil as far as the sauna scene goes.

 

 

I have several trips already booked for Brazil for the remainder of this year. However, unlike prior years, I did not make any Brazil plans for 2012. Like you, if I do not see any improvement in the sauna scene over my next trips, sadly, Brazil will morph into a closed chapter for me.

 

Thanks again for your honest response.

-

[Irtwo]

Thanks for this interesting thread. I take it there is no sauna scene in Portugal - as that would seem to be a more natural place for the Brazilians to go to?

[imrthr]

 

Thanks for this interesting thread. I take it there is no sauna scene in Portugal - as that would seem to be a more natural place for the Brazilians to go to?

 

 

You are correct. There is no sauna scene in Portugal like there is in Brazil. However, in Zurich, there is a very nice sauna called Paragonya that has just as many available rent boys as one used to find in the saunas in Brazil.

-

[EZEtoGRU]

imrthr,

You and I are in exactly the same place in terms of our opinions on the Brazil sauna scene today. Have a look back at the thread from 2010 "Is Brazil Sauna Boy Quality Slipping?" There are 5 pages of discussion on that thread and some folks still were believing things hadn't gone downhill. Anyway, all these issues were discussed then as well.

 

Reference your comments, I would reply as follows.

 

I agree entirely with you that it really is more an issue of quality than price. I am fortunate enough to pay what is required providing the quality is right. The problem in Brazil right now is the lack of quality guys at the saunas.

 

Sauna Thermas in Barcelona is somewhat cleaner and more modern than Adan in Madrid. As you say it also has lots of Brazilians. What I don't like about Thermas is how dark they keep the upstairs. Its almost creepy. When one goes up there it is so dark you cannot see the people that are touching you or talking with you. I pretty much just stay downstairs in the bar area where you can see the guys that are available. I don't really get that whole pitch black upstairs scene at all. I also think it is a mistake that the saunas are open 24 hours. I understand that some of the Romanians actually live in the saunas, sleep in the rooms, eat in the bar area and shower there. They may never (or rarely) actually leave during the course of a week. Doesn't sound very clean or hygenic to me.

 

Black & White bar in Madrid can be interesting and each night there are a few gems that come in. I have had decent luck there. One word of caution, don't bother going to Black & White before 1:00am. It is a very late scene and the prime hours are about 1:30am till 4:00am. The mix of guys is just like at Sauna Adan. Some South Americans, cubans, North Africans, Romanians and other Eastern Europeans....even the odd Spaniard. The problem with the whole Black and White concept is that it is so late that it messes one up for trying to do tourism later in the day since you may be up until 3-5am in the morning.

 

Thanks for the great conversation. You and I have our finger on the pulse of what is going on in Spain and Brazil. Nice to find a kindred spirit. Cheers.

[imrthr]

Hi EZE-GRU,

 

Yes, it is true that our opinions of the Brazil sauna scene are in agreement.

 

Thank you for inviting my attention to your thread of September of 2010. I missed the thread because it was created while I was away from the U.S. for an extended time. I noticed that I did not have any responses in the thread. Had I known about its content, I surely would have had something to write.

 

Most of the respondents agreed with your assessment of the sauna scene. On the other hand, when I posted my report here and at gaytravelbrazil.com there is one particular person who disagreed and insisted that there are more garotos available “at the better saunas” which I, for the life of me, do not know what a “better sauna” is. The poster based his argument on his count of 150 garotos advertising on the internet in Brazil. The poor guy does not realize your thread and mine are discussing saunas, not garotos available from a web site.

 

Speaking of websites, I and some of my friends have been disappointed by hiring from a web site. Frequently, the photos are of someone else or the person is much older than the pictures. Therefore, for that poster at gaytravelbrazil.com to claim that 150 internet photos proves that there are more saunas boys in Brazil defies logic.

 

In connection with the dark area of Thermas in Barcelona, let me suggest that when you enter the area where the garotos are available, if you stand near the lighted showers, you will not be in the dark. You will be able to see who passes you and you will be able to make a better choice if you can see who is in front of you talking. You can also stand in the hall (bar level) close to an entrance to the dark room. The hall is lighted and you can see who enters or exits and you can talk with each other in the light. I agree, there are parts of the “meeting” area that are too dark. And, of course, you can sit in the lighted bar and pool area and make contact.

 

Thanks for the information on Black & White. Even though it requires staying out later than I like, I will give it a visit when I am in Madrid.

 

Your posts have been valuable to me because they reconfirm the way I currently feel about the Brazilian sauna scene. I was hoping it was just me but there are too many friends and other people who are saying that the sauna scene in Brazil has declined (except for that poor naive man at gaytravelbrazil.com who cited the example of 150 photos posted in the internet as proof that the saunas in Brazil are still going strong as ever).

 

Over the years, I have made many trips to Brazil (more than 80) and I have had some wonderful times there. It saddens me to see the decline in the saunas and to realize that my travels to Brazil will come to an end very soon if the sauna scene does not improve.

 

By the way, you might want to take a look at the other site gaytravelbrazil.com and see what is happening there. At the present time, since travel to Brazil is in the tank, there is not many travel issues discussed but the site can be interesting.

-

[EZEtoGRU]

Thanks for your response imrthr. Between our respective multiple trips to Brazil (and I also lived in Sao Paulo from 2005-2007), I feel certain our paths have probably crossed before at the saunas. I always spent more time in Sao Paulo than Rio. For some reason, it suited me better.....even when I was not living there. I always enjoyed the scene more in SP than RJ. Years ago when I first started traveling to Brazil (1990?), I preferred Lagoa. As time went on, I started going more and more to Fragata. I preferred the atmosphere there more than in Lagoa as the years passed. In the last 5 years, I would say 90% of the time I would go to Fragata and 10% to Lagoa.

 

Thanks for the advice of how to stay out of the dark areas next time I am at Thermas in Barcelona. I will try that next time I am there.

 

I have never gone into the gaytravelbrazil.com site but, now that you mention it, I will go in and see what is going on there.

 

By the way, have you ever gone to ABC Bailao disco downtown in Sao Paulo? I don't know your age, but this club caters to older guys and they play mostly 70's/80's dance music. It is allot of fun and there are always some younger guys there that are genuinely into older types. It is not an escort/customer type arrangement however. The younger ones that are there really do like older men and it has nothing to do with money. Sometimes its nice to have someone chasing you for something other that what is in your wallet!! LOL!! I have had fun with our little exchange. Thanks!!

[imrthr]

Thanks for your response imrthr. Between our respective multiple trips to Brazil (and I also lived in Sao Paulo from 2005-2007), I feel certain our paths have probably crossed before at the saunas.

 

 

You are welcome. I would not be surprised if we know each other by sight. I am often with friends when I go to Sao Paulo. This sometimes distracts me from meeting other people when I am with my friends.

 

By the way, when I first began to visit Sao Paulo, like you, I used to like Lagoa better than Fragata. I also enjoyed going to sauna Alterosas on Saturdays. Over time, I found myself liking Lagoa less and less to a point I would go there only when my friends did not want to go there alone. Fragata is the sauna I generally visit when I am in Sao Paulo. As you probably know, Alterosas is no longer in business.

 

There are so many more things in Sao Paulo to do than there are in Rio and other cities in Brazil. I am particularly impressed with the world famous musical artists that come to Sao Paulo and perform in various concert halls throughout the city, day and night. Another thing I like to do is take newcomers to Sao Paulo to the Banespa Building (when I have spare time). This was once the tallest building in Sao Paulo until the Edificio Italia was built. At the top of the Banespa building is an observation deck that has a spectacular view of Sao Paulo. The idea of the observation deck was inspired by the Empire State Building in New York. Here is a link to some information about the building http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altino_Arantes_Building

 

 

By the way, have you ever gone to ABC Bailao disco downtown in Sao Paulo? I don't know your age, but this club caters to older guys and they play mostly 70's/80's dance music. It is allot of fun and there are always some younger guys there that are genuinely into older types. It is not an escort/customer type arrangement however. The younger ones that are there really do like older men and it has nothing to do with money. Sometimes its nice to have someone chasing you for something other that what is in your wallet!

 

 

Yes, I have gone to ABC Bailao disco in Centro. When I went there (or go there), it is always with one of my traveling partners. We both like the place and will return again. Actually, since the decline of the saunas, ABC Bailao disco is more interesting than it once was.

 

I, too, enjoyed your posting and responses. As I said in a previous post, I am usually in Sao Paulo every month (except I no longer visit Brazil in December and early January) due to the holiday season. I am scheduled again in July (next month). I just might see you at Fragata or ABC - if you hear someone who looks American speaking Portuguese with an awful American accent and lots of grammatical mistakes, please do not hesitate to ask if it is me.

 

One more thing, I don't want to be too specific (to protect his privacy), but do you also know a Brazilian named Cicero, who speaks excellent English and who owns a bar in Sao Paulo? If you do, the coincidences between us are extraordinarily remarkable.

-

[imrthr]

Not everyone agrees that there are negative changes with respect to the Brazilian saunas. Last night, Drey (from gaytravelbrazil.com), posted a rebuttal to my comments. I can understand why he and others are reluctant to accept that the sauna scene in Brazil has declined. But, the facts remain, the saunas are not the same as they were. Few things in life remain the same.

 

By the way, there is a special mention of Trilingual, who also posts in this forum.

 

Here is what I posted on Drey's site.

 

Hi Drey,

 

Based on your post last night, you agreed with another poster who wrote “all it takes is one great encounter to walk away from a sauna thinking Brazil still lives up to it's reputation” however, you did not mention that it now takes many times the effort and time to find that great encounter, if you find it at all.

 

You, yourself, admitted that during your most recent trip to Brazil you did not always find someone in the sauna to your liking. You lamented that you would not have taken Pierre with you under previous circumstances (more garotos available). You also stated that you would not have taken the garoto from Corujinha with you. Thus, you are among those of us who are experiencing the decline of the Brazilian saunas compared to your prior visits.

 

When you wrote that “things have changed somewhat over the last couple of years although I would in no way predict the demise of Brazilian saunas.”, I have to say that things have not changed “somewhat” they have changed markedly. And, to clarify, I never predicted the demise of Brazilian saunas. I did comment that I wonder how some saunas will survive if there is not more business to pay for employees and rent and other costs. As you know, there have been seven saunas close in Rio and Sao Paulo during the past eight years. There are not that many saunas with garotos remaining.

 

With respect to inflation in Brazil, I do not agree that it plays a major part on garotos not coming to the saunas in the same quantity as in prior times. I believe inflation accounts for the increase in the amount of money garotos now expect.

 

Many garotos who previously could not find work are now gainfully employed in regular jobs which explains why they do not go to the saunas.

 

Please remember, that I have spent a lot of time in Brazil and that I have traveled there more than eighty times (80). This indicates that I know a lot more about Brazil than a casual tourist who visits only occasionally.

 

I do not believe that the internet in Brazil explains why garotos are not going to the sauna. Most garotos do not have computers (although a few of them do).

 

Furthermore, just as “escorts” in the U.S. post false photos to lure clients, Brazilians would not be above that type of behavior given all the “mentiras” Brazilians tell. Additionally, a garoto could exaggerate his statistics and attributes in the advertisement, just as many “escorts” do in the U.S. and elsewhere.

 

Tourists that know the first-hand charm of the Brazilian sauna of the past would not suddenly change their behavior and start to hire garotos unseen based on photos and words written on an internet advertisement. With saunas, one can meet and see what one gets. An internet photo is not the same as a live face-to-face meeting with a garoto.

 

In your post you also remarked that you know of several posters' reports, in addition to those that you traveled with on your recent trip, and also yourself that left a sauna without a single programma. That would not have happened in the past. Clearly, this must confirm that something major has changed in the Brazilian saunas. I do not recall your ever posting in the past about leaving a sauna without entertaining a garoto.

 

You further wrote that you used to have difficulty choosing who you were going to go with. Now, for many others they reported that they went home alone while investing in a “limited Brazilian vacation which was a general disappointment.” Again, this did not happen in the past.

 

I agree, you can still have a great sauna experience in Brazil and you can still meet the guy of your dreams. In connection with that statement, you said it takes more work and selection of saunas.

 

It takes more than “more work” because if the saunas have only a handful of garotos and those garotos are not interesting, the likelihood of your finding even a fairly good looking garoto (much less one of your dreams) is next to nothing based on the trends in the saunas as of late.

 

Given that the saunas have fewer and fewer garotos each time I visit Brazil (almost every month), on what basis do you make your assumption that the saunas will “be re-supplied on a regular basis” with respect to garotos? I already reported that many garotos who previously could not find work are now gainfully employed in regular jobs. Those garotos with other jobs will not be replenishing the saunas.

 

I can understand the reluctance of members of this forum (or anyone else for that matter) to accept that things in Brazil have changed for the worse. I do not like it either. Neither do my friends.

 

As one of my friends wrote in a recent e-mail to me "I've noticed the change over time. My friend, - - - - , and I discussed it after our last trip in March. Although we still enjoyed ourselves, Fragata and Lagoa were less exciting with fewer choices. We left Fragata several nights without entertaining someone.”

 

“It seems that you have to enjoy these places while they're hot, cause experience shows it doesn't last long. We've seen it happen in Montreal, Prague, and years ago in Amsterdam."

 

Yes, just like in Montreal, Prague and Amsterdam, it is still possible to have a good time. However, those of us who remember Brazil’s sauna scene the way it was before its decline could never enjoy it the same as we did in the past.

 

There is an old Google search that goes back about twenty years or so. Incredibly, the search reveals that it was Trilingual who made the first disclosure of the wonders of the Brazilian saunas and what the saunas had to offer. For that, we all owe him many thanks for the information he supplied. We also owe him thanks for having a positive effect on so many and for opening doors that would not have been opened for me and for many of the readers of this forum. Parabens to Trilingual.

 

This post does not mean I will no longer visit Brazil. To the contrary, I have already several trips scheduled and paid for the remainder of this year. However, I have nothing scheduled for Brazil in 2012. I will wait to see how a few more trips turn out before I pull the plug on my visits to Brazil.

 

I am sorry this post is long and blunt but it is honest and to the point.

[MscleLovr]

Thank you imrthr aka mvan1 for taking the trouble to post your comment. I enjoyed it greatly, even though I've only visited Brazil once and, as I had some Argentine "beef' with me, I didn't visit any saunas.

 

My reflection on others not agreeing with you is that many posters do not admit to only visiting the country at long, irregular intervals and staying only briefly. I say this because of the reaction I've had to posts I've written about Argentina. Possibly I have a similar level of expertise on Buenos Aires, as you on Brazil, for I've visited there many times and stay for at least a month on each visit. Over time, I've found that some people post who've only visited Latin America once yet they don't hesitate to comment on what's written on Brazil and Argentina, despite their experience being in no way current.

 

I think this thread is so helpful precisely because you and EZEtoGRU are frequent and veteran travellers to the region.

[imrthr]

You are welcome, msclelover.

 

I think your analysis concerning those who disagree in reasonable. It is unfortunate that when news that is not pleasing comes along, there are some people who reject the facts and only see what they want to see. That is just how things work, sometimes.

 

One thing I found odd was that two of the dissenters have fixed residences in Brazil. One lives on an island near Rio. The other lives in the Copacabana area of Rio.

 

The posts and responses of these two individuals were off topic to the subject of my thread. The one who lives on the island did not organize what he wanted to say which made his rebuttals meaningless. The one who lives in Copacabana, went on some tangent about 150 guys available on the internet which somehow, in his mind, proves that there are “more guys than ever” in the saunas.

 

Regardless of who does or does not agree, I posted what I believe is factual based on my personal observation. If people want to disagree, that is their right.

 

Thanks for your words of support and have a great time on your next trip to Buenos Aires

[EZEtoGRU]

imrthr,

Sorry for delay in getting back to you. I am sure if we ever meet, there will be an "ah ha" moment where we both recognize each other. We have both been in Brazil too many times at the same places to not have crossed paths.

 

I agree there is plenty to do and see in Sao Paulo....and the restaurants are legendary. Streets ahead of Rio.

 

I don't know Cicero by name but I may know him if I see him. I have lots of acquaintances in SP that I cannot remember their names but for sure I know them and have talked to them. Is the bar on Viera de Carvalho?

[imrthr]

 

snip snip

 

I agree there is plenty to do and see in Sao Paulo....and the restaurants are legendary. Streets ahead of Rio.

 

 

I suspect that we know many of the same restaurants in Sao Paulo. Since you mentioned Av. Vieira de Carvalho, I assume you know the restaurant around the corner from there called O Gato - which is decent, in my opinion but they have their off days every now and again. Their menu is interesting and in the winter (Brazil's winter), they offer several kinds of soups in the evening provided the day was cold.

 

Another restaurant I assume you have been to is Restaurant Terraco Italia in Sao Paulo's currently tallest building. As you probably know, the Banespa Bank building was the tallest until the Italia building came into existence. The food in this restaurant can change for the good or bad depending on luck or whoever is doing the cooking the day you visit the restaurant. One thing about the restaurant that is predictable is the splendid view that does not depend on the cook.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know Cicero by name but I may know him if I see him. I have lots of acquaintances in SP that I cannot remember their names but for sure I know them and have talked to them. Is the bar on Viera de Carvalho?

 

 

Cicero's bar is located not far from the area of O Gato. I have known him a long time. He has an extraordinary good sense of humor. To think that English is not his native language makes his sense of humor even more intriguing.

 

Did you check out the link I provided to the Banespa Bank building? Have you ever gone there to the observation deck?

 

Yes, there are plenty of things to see and do in Sao Paulo.

-

[EZEtoGRU]

I suspect that we know many of the same restaurants in Sao Paulo. Since you mentioned Av. Vieira de Carvalho, I assume you know the restaurant around the corner from there called O Gato - which is decent, in my opinion but they have their off days every now and again. Their menu is interesting and in the winter (Brazil's winter), they offer several kinds of soups in the evening provided the day was cold.

 

Another restaurant I assume you have been to is Restaurant Terraco Italia in Sao Paulo's currently tallest building. As you probably know, the Banespa Bank building was the tallest until the Italia building came into existence. The food in this restaurant can change for the good or bad depending on luck or whoever is doing the cooking the day you visit the restaurant. One thing about the restaurant that is predictable is the splendid view that does not depend on the cook.

 

Cicero's bar is located not far from the area of O Gato. I have know him a long time. He has an extraordinary good sense of humor. To think that English is not his native language makes his sense of humor even more intriguing.

 

Did you check out the link I provided to the Banespa Bank building? Have you ever gone there to the observation deck?

 

Yes, there are plenty of things to see and do in Sao Paulo.

-

 

Yes I know O Gato que Ri well......next to the internet place on the corner. When I lived in SP, I would go to O Gato for a late dinner before going out to the bars/clubs downtown. Also, I am well aware of the Terraco Italia at the top of the building but I have never actually eaten there. I will check out the website now. Always wanted to go and, as you say, it is famous for having one of the most spectacular views in Sao Paulo. One of my other favourites was always Figuera Rubiaiyat on Haddok Lobo in Jardins. Great steaks in a fantastic setting whose centerpiece is a giant fig tree. Quite unique. It was actually walking distance from where I lived.

 

I may actually know Cicero. There is one bar on Viera that I always go to and they know me and I know them (amazing the staff never changes over the years.....newest person there joined like 5 years ago). Is he the slender guy with dark hair and a mustache? Maybe about 40 years old?

[imrthr]

 

Yes I know O Gato que Ri well......next to the internet place on the corner. When I lived in SP, I would go to O Gato for a late dinner before going out to the bars/clubs downtown. Also, I am well aware of the Terraco Italia at the top of the building but I have never actually eaten there. I will check out the website now. Always wanted to go and, as you say, it is famous for having one of the most spectacular views in Sao Paulo. One of my other favourites was always Figuera Rubiaiyat on Haddok Lobo in Jardins. Great steaks in a fantastic setting whose centerpiece is a giant fig tree. Quite unique. It was actually walking distance from where I lived.

 

 

Yes, you do know the area well, even to the point of knowing that O Gato is near the internet shop on the corner. Actually, O Gato is just a bit farther down from the corner, being the third building once you make a left turn off of Av. Vieira de Carvalho. After the internet shop, there is a small lojas that sells ice cream and other small items. The next building is O Gato.

 

Your not having eaten at Terraco Italia is no big loss for you. As I wrote, the food can be unpredictable. Sometimes the meals are well prepared while other times the food is only slightly warm and barely edible by the time it reaches your table. The spectacular view is Terraco’s only consistent drawing point, in my opinion. The only time I ever go to that restaurant is when friends want to go there, primarily for the view (and the over priced food). Many people regard this restaurant as a tourist trap because of all the fanfaronade attached to eating there.

 

I am familiar with the restaurant you mentioned, Figuera Rubiaiyat. The place, as you know, is unique. When one leaves that restaurant, it is not possible to leave hungry. I have been there only once with friends. I enjoyed my meal and time spent there.

 

Did you ever check out the other site, gaytravelbrazil.com and see all the chatter there about my controversial post? It is astounding what kind of responses were triggered over my good faith attempt to exchange information about changes that have occurred in the Brazil saunas over the past couple of years.

 

Some of the responses were down right bizarre and hostile and were removed by the owner of the site. Other responses were a good exchange of experiences and observations. Some responses were so far off topic and senseless, I wondered if the readers actually took time to understand the post.

 

The responses made to my thread on this site (M4M), however, were rational.

 

On this and the other site, I did my best to bring up issues in connection with the changes in quantity and quality of sauna garotos solely to comment about the changes I personally observed and the observations of my friends who also travel frequently to Brazil. If those on the other site want to reject reality, so be it.

[EZEtoGRU]

Another restaurant that is allot of fun is Famiglia Mancini just on the edge of downtown. Old style Italian (with Brazilian flair). Sometimes long lines to get in. I believe they do not accept reservations. Impossible on weekends. I went once with one of the Garotos from Fragata. From Mancini, we walked to the straight strip club called Kilt. I like going to Kilt to see the live sex shows.....male/female. The garoto I was with is straight and Kilt worked for both of us. He could watch the naked women and I watched the naked guys. Only problem is that the place is full of female hookers that won't leave you alone.

 

I did check out gaytravelbrazil. Had problems getting into the forum to review the postings. In any case, IMHO you may be getting too hung up on what others are commenting or thinking regarding your post. I know Brazil VERY VERY well...... as do you. I KNOW the sauna scene is in decline.....so do you. What others post really does not matter to me as I don't need others to validate what I know to be the truth. Having said that, would someone from Omaha or Raleigh or Fresno that went on their first trip to Brazil for the saunas have lots of fun? Probably yes, since they do not have a previous reference point. You and I still go, and maybe occassionally still have a good experience in the saunas. Its kind of like the thread on daddys about a year ago where there was a very agressive debate on whether the Montreal strip club scene was in decline or not. Some felt strongly it was declining and others felt not. I know Montreal very well, and I know the strip club scene has declined in the last 2-4 years. Having said that, one can still have a good time there......and there is lots to see and do in Montreal beyond Campus and Stock. In the end, all one needs is a single good dancer encounter in the back room at stock to make for a decent evening. In the past, one may have had three good backroom encounters in one night, but now one will suffice. Still better than what I can get up to in Houston.

 

Lots of people in lots of forums say silly, stupid, and uniformed things. You and I know the truth about Brazil.....do any of the rest of the views really matter? It may be of interest to hear what others say, but it would not change my opinion one iota. All is IMHO of course. I am not in your shoes.

 

I am supposed to head to Montreal next week, but I may need to postpone. I will decide today or tomorrow.

 

All the best imrthr.

[imrthr]

Another restaurant that is a lot of fun is Famiglia Mancini just on the edge of downtown. Old style Italian (with Brazilian flair). Sometimes long lines to get in. I believe they do not accept reservations. Impossible on weekends. I went once with one of the Garotos from Fragata. From Mancini, we walked to the straight strip club called Kilt. I like going to Kilt to see the live sex shows.....male/female. The garoto I was with is straight and Kilt worked for both of us. He could watch the naked women and I watched the naked guys. Only problem is that the place is full of female hookers that won't leave you alone.

 

I did check out gaytravelbrazil. Had problems getting into the forum to review the postings. In any case, IMHO you may be getting too hung up on what others are commenting or thinking regarding your post. I know Brazil VERY VERY well...... as do you. I KNOW the sauna scene is in decline.....so do you. What others post really does not matter to me as I don't need others to validate what I know to be the truth. Having said that, would someone from Omaha or Raleigh or Fresno that went on their first trip to Brazil for the saunas have lots of fun? Probably yes, since they do not have a previous reference point. You and I still go, and maybe occasionally still have a good experience in the saunas. Its kind of like the thread on daddys about a year ago where there was a very aggressive debate on whether the Montreal strip club scene was in decline or not. Some felt strongly it was declining and others felt not. I know Montreal very well, and I know the strip club scene has declined in the last 2-4 years. Having said that, one can still have a good time there......and there is lots to see and do in Montreal beyond Campus and Stock. In the end, all one needs is a single good dancer encounter in the back room at stock to make for a decent evening. In the past, one may have had three good backroom encounters in one night, but now one will suffice. Still better than what I can get up to in Houston.

 

Lots of people in lots of forums say silly, stupid, and uniformed things. You and I know the truth about Brazil.....do any of the rest of the views really matter? It may be of interest to hear what others say, but it would not change my opinion one iota. All is IMHO of course. I am not in your shoes.

 

I am supposed to head to Montreal next week, but I may need to postpone. I will decide today or tomorrow.

 

All the best imrthr.

 

 

Hello again, EZEtoGRU,

 

What a well-written response you just submitted. I am impressed and deeply moved by what you wrote.

 

First, let me comment on the restaurants, Famiglia Mancini located on Rua Avanhandava in Centro (there are three Mancini restaurants located within a few hundred feet of each other - you probably know this).

 

The elegant and fancy Mancini restaurant (waiters wear white gloves) is directly across the street from the most popular of the three Mancini restaurants that was recently closed for remodeling. This is most likely the one you are referring to in your response. The third Mancini is just up the street and is the pizza restaurant owned by the Mancini family.

 

Prior to the popular restaurant being closed for remodeling, I visited that place more than twenty times over the years. I enjoyed the place, the food was excellent, the portions were large and the service was decent. Then, suddenly, one day last year we went there and it was closed for remodeling. There was a sign posted at the front door of the closed restaurant directing us to the Mancini Pizza restaurant just a few hundred feet away. The pizza restaurant had a piano bar but that was the best thing about the place. The portions were small, the prices were high and the service was not so good.

 

Earlier this year, the popular Mancini restaurant reopened. I must say that I am extremely disappointed with the restaurant now. The service is slow and there are too many waiters serving one table. This would be fine if the waiters communicated with each other but they don’t. They brought the wrong food to the table, they were confused and the food quality had declined and the prices rose far beyond the current inflation in Brazil. When the bill arrived, there were several charges for things we never ordered or items that were not brought to us. This is not a good sign. Obviously, the restaurant patrons are paying for the remodeling. I will give them a few months before I return to the restaurant in order for the management to realize that the waiters and service are like a “Keystone Cops” scenario. By the way, they did a great job on the remodel as the place looks very nice inside except the tables are now too close to other tables.

 

I appreciated what you wrote about the possibility of my getting too close to what others think about my post. Unquestionably, I should ignore those who know so many things about Sao Paulo that are just not so. And, you are right, we do not need others to validate what we know to be the truth about the sauna scene in Sao Paulo and certain other cities in Brazil.

 

It is too bad that you were not able to access the gaytravelbrazil.com site. The temperament of many of the forum members is quite different from what is found on this forum. Nonetheless, my good faith thread only antagonized many of those who think they know all about Brazil and its sauna scene.

 

With respect to your comment on Montreal, prior to my countless trips to Brazil, I used to travel to Montreal a couple of times each month. I did that for several years. I stopped going to Montreal on a regular basis because the club scene in the village declined immensely. Drugs took over the streets and it was no longer pleasant to visit Montreal. I still visit there three or four times each year but the scene is no longer as it was when I went there on a regular basis. My visits now are not primarily to visit the village. Admittedly, if I had never been to Montreal in the past and did not know it the way it formerly was and I was there for the first time, I would probably have a more favorable attitude or opinion of the city. Many people go to Montreal and find it just fine. I, however, remember when the village was markedly different than it is today. Clearly, the strip places in Montreal declined but they are better than no strip places at all.

 

By the way, thanks for telling me about Kilt. I did not know about the place. It might come in handy, one of these days. I can find the address.

 

If you go to Montreal, have a great trip.

 

Cheers,

[EZEtoGRU]

Hi imrthr,

First of all I am devastated to hear about the problems at Mancini. That place has been been an icon for decades. Admitedly, I have not been for about 18 months......so I was not aware of the changes. What a shame. As you say, give them a few months and they may be able to redeem themselves.

 

In terms of the strategy going forward on the Brazil saunas, we both plan to still give the place a few more chances and then cut way back if there isn't improvement. I am thinking also that it might be a good idea to test the waters outside of RJ and SP to see if things are better in places like Salvador and Recife. You mentioned in one of your posts that your experience in Porto Alegre was not great. My last two trips to Porto Alegre (both in 2010) were both "OK". Plataforma is unquestionably dead. Mezzaninu was quite good on a number of the nights I went. One thing I learned about Porto Alegre is that it is to be avoided on Mondays and Tuesdays. The sauna scene everywhere in Porto Alegre is dead on those two days. I found Mezzaninu to be very busy on the Wednesday and the Friday when I went. Also there was a club in town called indiscretus I believe. Again, a very late scene. Waiters wear no clothes on Fridays except an apron. Quite a few working garotos.....some who come there after the sauna. Anyway, kind of interesting.

 

Regarding Montreal, you and I are on the same page. I went 4 times last year and, whilst I had a decent time on all the trips, one could see how much the villiage had deteriorated. Seemed almost seedy and with lots of beggars. Lots of boarded up storefronts. Now this was during one of my winter trips.....and it does seem gloomy there in the winter. It is true things come alive more in the summer when St Catherine is closed. I think you may have hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the drug problem. This undoubtedly has allot to do with it.

 

Facinating how we have the same view on virtually everything. Peace.

[imrthr]

Hi EZEtoGRU,

 

As you commented, I still plan to visit Brazil a few more times before I decide to markedly curtail my frequent visits there. I plan to substitute Brazil with other countries (probably Spain and Switzerland).

 

You are correct in that I did report my recent sauna scene disappointment with Porto Alegre. My Porto Alegre trip was in January of this year.

 

I also reported my sauna scene disappointment about Recife which was also in January.

 

I have never been to a rent-boy sauna in Bahia (Salvador) and I am not sure there is one there. I heard from some people that there is one or two rent boy saunas in Salvador but I also heard from different people that there is no rent boy saunas scene in Salvador and that the saunas that exist are simply gay saunas. I guess the only way to know for sure is to visit there myself.

 

I do know an interesting garoto who lives in Salvador. He used to work in Sao Paulo at Lagoa but got homesick and returned to Salvador. Funny, I never thought to ask him if there were rent boy saunas in Salvador. I enjoyed being with him and did not want to offend him by asking about rent boy saunas in Salvador.

 

I have his telephone number and I have his name that he used in Sao Paulo but I cannot recall his real name even though he told me what it is. If you plan a trip to Salvador and think you might want to call him, PM me and I will give you his telephone number. I talked with him about 10 days ago which indicates that his cell phone still works but then we never know about garotos from one day to the next.

 

Based on the little bit of writing you have done concerning the type of garoto that interests you, it is conceivable that he would likely be a match for you. He is extremely handsome and quite masculine and rather charming. Without making a commitment for anything substantive, you could call him and invite him for a drink or lunch and make it clear that the meeting is only exploratory. I had a link to a site where he was featured but the link is no longer valid. If I can find another link, I will let you know.

 

If my July trip to Brazil starts out dull, I might travel to Salvador for a few days to check out the city. I have heard some good things about the place but I have also heard some bad things as well.

 

I hope you were able to make your Montreal trip.

 

Cheers,

[EZEtoGRU]

Hi imrthr,

I have been to Recife twice but it was more than 10 years ago. The sauna scene at that time was pretty good, but it is along time ago and your experience is much more recent than mine. I travelled to Salvador as well on the same trips 10 years ago but I could not find any good information about saunas there at the time. However, I am quite certain that there are 1-2 saunas with garotos currently. I know this as I always speak with the garotos baianos at Fragata. Some of them go back and forth between Salvador and Sao Paulo. They confirm that there is sauna action in Salvador. I don't know the names however. Anyway, Salvador is worth a visit aside from the saunas.

 

One of my favourite garotos from Fragata is from Salvador.....Luciano.....you may know him. He returned to Salvador in February (he has three kids there and missed them). He was going to try and make a life for himself back in Salvador but was leaving the door open to return to Sao Paulo if things did not turn out well in Salvador.

 

Thanks for your offer of the contact in Salvador. I'll take you up on that if I get there this year.

 

Thanks for your question about my trip to Montreal. I am currently still in Miami and still have my reservation to go to Montreal on Tuesday. I still have not decided but will do so before the end of the day. All the best.

[imrthr]

Hi EZEtoGRU”

 

You are absolutely correct. There are rent boy saunas in Salvador. I found several articles and posts about Saunas in Salvador.

 

Below is a brief description of the two "most popular" rent boy saunas in Salvador, or so I determined from reading various information available.

 

The reviews of the saunas seemed reasonable but there was one review of Sauna Planetario that was not so good. It described the sauna as I now find many saunas in Recife, Rio, Porto Alegre and Sao Paulo. In short, the review remarked about the lack of clients and garotos. That is not a good sign as I could very well find Salvador simply a repeat of the decline in quality and quantity like I described in the other cities.

 

However, since I have never been to Salvador, and considering the fact that I am thinking about cutting way back on my trips to Brazil anyway, I might as well visit Salvador to check it out for myself. Maybe my feelings about Brazil will be revived after seeing Salvador.

 

Hopefully, the slump in the sauna business has not hit Salvador like it has hit other major cities in Brazil. I will be doing more research about Salvador.

 

The only thing that is not clear from reading various postings of Salvador is finding a decent hotel. There are no major American or European chain hotels in Salvador that I could find. Therefore, I will be stuck taking a chance booking a room at an unknown product that may or may not be decent.

 

With respect to arriving in Salvador, the airplane schedules, at least on TAM, are not user friendly. Either one must take a very early flight from Sao Paulo or a late flight that arrives in the night time. I would have thought there would be more flights in and out of Salvador than there appears to be.

 

Have fun in Montreal if you decide to make your trip on Tuesday.

 

Here are the reviews:

 

(1)

 

(27. February 2010)

 

Good mix

Sauna Fox is a relatively new sauna in the Pituba district of Salvador. It's hard to find on a quiet side street so a taxi is probably a good idea if it's your first time. It's also very easy to walk past, especially in the dark. The local area is quite safe, although very quiet after sunset. The sauna is a mixture of clients who want to have fun with other clients, and some are very good looking, but there is also a handful of very attractive 'boys' who will provide a service if that is what you are looking for. Fridays and Saturdays are best. Usual rules apply, always agree a price upfront, anything from R$50 - R$100 depending on the boy and what you want and how generous you are feeling. Client on client fun is fine here as well. The staff are very friendly and helpful and there is free internet access. The environment is clean and well kept but the interior is a little on the small side and it can often be difficult to find a free cabin when it's busy. There is an outdoor area to have a drink and smoke. A good mix of attractions and definitely now one of the best saunas in Salvador.

 

(2)

 

(27. February 2010)

 

Busy on Thursday & weekends

Sauna Planetário is the type of sauna where good looking straight 'boys' provide a service to paying clients. The boys are very friendly but be careful - some will try to buy themselves extra drinks using your key number so always tell the barman only to put drinks on your tab with your permission - slip him a small tip to say thank you. Usual rates apply, anything from R$50 - R$100 depending on the boy and what you want and how generous you are feeling, plus about R$20 for a 'suite' or less for a smaller room. The sauna is busiest on Fridays and Saturdays, especially during public holidays and Carnaval, but can be very quiet at other times. The area is safe during the day but a taxi is probably advisable after dark. The boys are mostly working class lads from all over Salvador so being able to speak Portuguese will be an advantage. Used to be one of the best saunas for 'boys' in Salvador but Fox is probably the best sauna in Salvador now.

[EZEtoGRU]

Sounds like a good plan imrthr. If you make your trip to Salvador mostly tourism related, you won't be too disappointed if the sauna scene is not great. On the other hand, if you have a good time in the sauna, it will be the icing on the cake. Looks like you found some good information on the sauna, so you are good to go. Regarding the flights, you must be looking at TAM flights to Salvador from Congonhas airport which does indeed have limited selection. If you go from Guarulhos, TAM has a much wider selection of nonstop flights (up to 8-10 a day) to Salvador. Of course you have to shlepp out to Guarulhos which is a pain in the rear, but then you can fly pretty much any time during the day that you want.

 

I will comment on the hotels in your other thread.

 

I have decided to proceed with my trip to Montreal on Tuesday. I'm back in Houston now and the heat is unbearable. Gotta get out of here!!

[imrthr]

Hi EZEtoGRU.

 

I agree, if I made my Salvador trip chiefly tourist related, I would not be disappointed if the saunas were similar to what I have found in most Brazilian saunas lately.

 

My not knowing if the sauna scene in Salvador will be good or bad makes it difficult to decide on the number of days to plan for Salvador. If the sauna scene is good, I would want to stay in Salvador longer. If the sauna scene in Salvador is not so good, I would shorten my stay and leave for another Brazilian city. Therefore, the unknown makes it difficult to plan the number of days in Salvador.

 

I went back to the TAM site and checked both Guarulhos and Congonhas. Just as before, there are no mid day flights from either place to Salvador. Since my flight from the U.S. arrives in GRU around 10:00 a.m., it was my anticipation (hope) to remain at GRU and catch a flight somewhere around mid day to Salvador.

 

It seems odd that the first flight from GRU after their 7:15 a.m. flight (too early because I do not arrive until around 10:00) leaves at 5:35 p.m. and arrives in Salvador that evening around eight o’clock. Considering it is my first trip to Salvador, I do not want to arrive in that city at night. It will be Brazil’s winter and darkness sets in fairly early in July when I next return to Brazil next month. Congonhas has a similar odd schedule in that there are no mid day flights.

 

I had hoped to continue on to Salvador upon arrival in GRU from the States but it appears that is not possible because of the air schedules. In lieu of connecting in GRU and continuing, I will stay a few days in Sao Paulo then, go to Salvador.

 

Sorry to read that you are stuck in Houston with their awful humidity. Other for it being a Continental Airlines major hub, what could have drawn you to that city? I was there on business several years ago and I found the heat and humidity unbearable and the people were of a different mind set than I am used to seeing. My only contact with Houston now is when I have a flight that connects through that city to another destination.

 

Have a great trip to Montreal and please post if you find anything exciting.

 

Cheers

[EZEtoGRU]

Hi imrthr,

I'm at the airport now leaving for Montreal....thank goodness.

 

I just looked at the TAM flights from Guarulhos (GRU) to Salvador (SSA) again. I used a sample date of Wednesday June 22nd and found 8 nonstop flights leaving GRU at 07.30, 08.30, 10.30, 12.40, 14.00, 15.50, 22.35, 23.45. So there seem to be three options that may work for you that do not require you to wait in GRU till the evening. I don't know which day you are looking at leaving, and it is possible some of the flights on your particular travel day are sold out. From what I see, there are plenty of options for you.....at least for the day I selected. There is always GOL as well....although they are more difficult to book from outside of Brazil. The options from Congonhas to Salvador have always been quite limited....usually only 1-3 flights per day. So the information you found on that does not surprise me. The only other thing I can think of which explains the limited number of TAM flight options from GRU is that July is a heavy vacation month in Brazil is that lots of flights are sold out already. I hope you can find something that works for you.

 

Regarding your question about Houston, I moved here in 2007 as my company transferred me. I "retired" in December 2009 and have not yet decided where I want to live now. For sure, I do not want to stay in Texas.

 

Good luck with your travel plans!