Vick ain't no dick (NFL)

[Rick Munroe]

Tony Dungy. There is not a player who has ever played for him who does think this man doesn't walk on water on command. His moral compass and ethical point of view is without peer among anyone -- sports or otherwise.

 

He's also a homophobe who's appeared on Fox News to confirm that he believes LGBT people should not have equal rights. He's aligned with the socially conservative Indiana Family Institute, and supported an amendment to the Indiana constitution which would have defined marriage as solely between one man and one woman.

[instudiocity]

He's also a homophobe who's appeared on Fox News to confirm that he believes LGBT people should not have equal rights. He's aligned with the socially conservative Indiana Family Institute, and supported an amendment to the Indiana constitution which would have defined marriage as solely between one man and one woman.

 

Homophobe? Really? A homophobe simply because he has a different belief system? I would submit he's no more homophobic than he is white. He's just advocating his belief system in the political arena, something you're probably believe you have to right to do as well.

 

I am offended you would throw so inflammatory a word at Tony Dungy, who is advocating his beliefs while at the same time you advocate yours. Could you be called a heterophobe?

[jimboivyo]

I am offended you would throw so inflammatory a word at Tony Dungy, who is advocating his beliefs while at the same time you advocate yours. Could you be called a heterophobe?

 

Is it possible you don't know the meaning of the word homophobe? Rick stated that Dungy has a clear history of inflammatory statements against the GLBT community, as well as a mindset that they don't deserve equal rights. If that's not homophobic, I don't know what is. He's an ass, and no religious book is large enough for him to hide that clear fact.

 

Heterophobic? That would mean that Rick would have to make the same kinds of statements against his straight counterpart, not just expect expect equal rights as he stated earlier. Rick's comments were stated fact. You're just looking for an axe to grind without much success.

[Guest Zack]

"Dungy, former coach of the Indianapolis Colts football team, has well-known ties with intolerant Religious Right groups. In 2007, for example, he spoke at a fund-raising dinner for the Indiana Family Institute, a James Dobson-affiliated group that opposes gay rights, reproductive rights and separation of church and state."

 

Full article here http://tiny.cc/qiq3u

 

James Dungy, the 18 year old son of Tony Dungy, as you may recall, committed suicide back in December of 2005.

 

As tragic as that was then, we will never know the reason for his decision to take his own life. But what we do know is that Tony Dungy was obviously someone his son did not feel close enough too - to elect another option.

 

I hope he has better luck with Michael Vick than he did with his own son.

[instudiocity]

But what we do know is that Tony Dungy was obviously someone his son did not feel close enough too - to elect another option.

And just how do we know that? Everything I read about his son's suicide spoke about a close relationship between father and son. Suicide is far more complicated than looking for an obvious, and wrong, answer.

[instudiocity]

Is it possible you don't know the meaning of the word homophobe? Rick stated that Dungy has a clear history of inflammatory statements against the GLBT community, as well as a mindset that they don't deserve equal rights. If that's not homophobic, I don't know what is. He's an ass, and no religious book is large enough for him to hide that clear fact.

Homophobic is an unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality. I still don't believe Tony Dungy is homophobic. He has a different mindset and I frankly haven't read any of his 'inflammatory statements' against LGBT people. Of course, I don't think groups have equal rights, I believe PEOPLE have equal rights.

 

Heterophobic? That would mean that Rick would have to make the same kinds of statements against his straight counterpart, not just expect expect equal rights as he stated earlier. Rick's comments were stated fact. You're just looking for an axe to grind without much success.

It is a point of sarcasm. Name calling is not going to get anyone anywhere. My point is that name calling Tony Dungy homophobic opens the door to accusing Rick of being heterophobic. Frnakly, I've personally witnessed several gay men speaking and behaving in heterophobic ways.

 

As to my success in grinding this axe, I got a rise out of you so I've at least made one person think.

[Guest Zack]

And just how do we know that?

 

We know this because James Dungy is dead. By his own hand.

[KMEM]

I personally heard Tony Dungy speak before a group luncheon sponsored by some Christian businessmen. The topic was character, not gay character, straight character but just people character. He recounted some personal experiences as well as professional experiences. I don't remember a comment that would be unacceptable by most anyone. This was just before his last year as coach of the Colts.

 

I realize that one "speech" does not make the man but at least I heard with my own ears what he had to say and it was inspiring, at least to me.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[instudiocity]

We know this because James Dungy is dead. By his own hand.

 

I cannot argue with that brilliance. A son commits suicide therefore his father was 'obviously someone his son did not feel close enough too - to elect another option'.

Therefore every suicidal person elects suicide from a list of options?

[+ glutes]

Back to Michael Vick...

 

NEW HAVEN, Conn., Nov. 24 (UPI) -- NFL quarterback Michael Vick told Connecticut high school students his dog-fighting conviction was a divine warning against the practice.

 

The Philadelphia Eagles starting quarterback told students at Wilbur Cross High in New Haven Tuesday he was captivated with the dogs a man would bring by a barber shop when he was 10. "The most beautiful dogs in the world," Vick said. "I kept asking him to give me a dog."

 

http://www.upi.com/Sports_News/2010/11/24/Vick-preaches-against-dog-fights-to-teens/UPI-84461290623786/

[Rick Munroe]

I still don't believe Tony Dungy is homophobic. He has a different mindset

 

So, if someone were to say that Tony Dungy should not be allowed to coach football because he's black, would you believe that that person is not racist but merely has a "different mindset"?

 

Of course, I don't think groups have equal rights, I believe PEOPLE have equal rights.

 

LOL That's a nice thought, but the group known as "gay" does not have the same rights as the group known as "straight." And we don't have a separate DOMA or DADT for every single individual. We have to obtain rights for the group so that the individuals can enjoy them.

 

My point is that name calling Tony Dungy homophobic opens the door to accusing Rick of being heterophobic. Frnakly, I've personally witnessed several gay men speaking and behaving in heterophobic ways.

 

And can you point to a single example of my doing that? Not only don't I do it, but I correct people when they use terms like "breeder," which I find offensive. I understand that you're attacking me because you felt your idol was being attacked, but there's no factual basis for it.

[Rick Munroe]

Homophobe? Really? A homophobe simply because he has a different belief system?

 

Yes, because his "belief system" includes anti-gay bigotry. Would you also say a racist or anti-Semite merely has a "different belief system"?

[Rick Munroe]

Tony Dungy on Homosexuality: Bigotry Is Bigotry

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4502-tony-dungy-on-homosexuality-bigotry-is-bigotry

 

In a recent appearance on the HBO series Costas Now, Colts coach Tony Dungy showed his true colors.

 

Dungy, a devout Christian, was initially asked if he'd have a problem with having a Muslim, Jew, or atheist on his team.

 

Dungy immediately answered no. He doesn’t proselytize to his players, he said.

 

Costas followed up with the same question about an openly gay player.

 

And Dungy paused.

 

He actually paused and crossed his arms—in obvious discomfort—before responding with canned blather about letting the player know what he thinks, and what the Bible says.

 

Dungy also said that if the player were good he'd have no problem with it.

 

But if that's the case—why the pause? Why the discomfort?

 

I’m not gay. I’m a straight white male—and I’m completely and utterly offended that Dungy paused to a question to which any sane, intelligent person would reply, “I have no problem with it at all.”

 

Tony Dungy was the first African American coach to lead his team to a Super Bowl championship. I personally didn’t find the feat particularly earth-shattering.

 

Besides the color of Dungy's skin, what made his accomplishment any different than a white coach winning the Super Bowl for the first time? Is Bill Belichick's fair complexion responsible for his success? In beating Dungy time and again over the years, did Belichick prove that black coaches were somehow inferior? Was it Jon Gruden's whiteness that helped him lead Dungy's Bucs to the promised land immediately after Dungy's departure?

 

Seriously, who gives a damn what color your skin is?

 

And by the same token, who gives a damn whom you sleep with?

 

I’m sure that Tony Dungy faced his share of racial bias while rising through the coaching ranks. He certainly did in his playing career—as when he was converted from quarterback to defensive back after being drafted from the University of Minnesota by the Pittsburgh Steelers.

 

Given that history, Dungy should understand how pernicious prejudice can be.

 

And homophobia is no exception.

 

Okay—the Bible says it’s wrong. The Bible also states that any man working on the Sabbath shall be put to death. (Exodus 35:2). Doesn’t bode too well for a job that requires you to work a minimum of 17 Sundays a year, does it Tony?

 

The Bible also advocates slavery, by the way. I'm guessing Tony wouldn’t agree with that.

 

If you believe it's wrong to be gay—fine. It’s an ignorant view of the world, but it's your absolute right as a human being to believe whatever the hell you want to believe.

 

In that vein, though, would it be okay for a white owner to believe a white coach would do a better job coaching his football team? Maybe it would if the Bible said so—which is of course how white land owners justified slavery.

 

The bottom line here?

 

Scripture isn't and can't be a fig leaf for bigotry. I'd hope that Tony Dungy would've learned that much on his way to the top.

[Guest Zack]

Therefore every suicidal person elects suicide from a list of options?

 

As you stated, suicide is a complex issue which most people have little knowledge.

 

I have always argued that it takes a whole lot of guts and courage for one to kill one's self. That's just what I happen to believe.

 

The suffering that a person tolerates and endures up to the moment he/she feel there are no other options and they act on the only other option they deem viable is heart-wrenching.

 

With the horrific number of gay suicides as of late, it seems to me, that yes, people embrace this act as a last resource or option as you like to call it.

 

Young boys like James Dungy, with publicly homophobic fathers in the public spotlight, like Tony Dungy was, probably endure an enormous amount of personal and silent suffering and agony, if only by the hand of the father's personal beliefs and bigotry.

 

And that's one of the many things that has to change in our society before we will ever begin seeing healthier young people growing into healthier adults.

[instudiocity]

As you stated, suicide is a complex issue which most people have little knowledge.

I was speaking of specific knowledge as to why James committed suicide - those facts have never come out.

 

I have always argued that it takes a whole lot of guts and courage for one to kill one's self. That's just what I happen to believe.

And your beliefs are your beliefs. I sometimes think suicide is the ultimate chicken-out attitude. The thought, "I can always kill myself." denies the fact that everyone has people who love them and will be forever damaged by the suicide. I have friends who struggle today with a family member who committed suicide years ago.

The suffering that a person tolerates and endures up to the moment he/she feel there are no other options and they act on the only other option they deem viable is heart-wrenching.

 

With the horrific number of gay suicides as of late, it seems to me, that yes, people embrace this act as a last resource or option as you like to call it.

You used the word options. I was quoting you.

 

Young boys like James Dungy, with publicly homophobic fathers in the public spotlight, like Tony Dungy was, probably endure an enormous amount of personal and silent suffering and agony, if only by the hand of the father's personal beliefs and bigotry.

Are you assuming that James Dungy's death was because he was a closeted homosexual? There have been no reports to that effect. He was discovered by his girlfriend when she returned from a 10 minute walk. Your term, young boys like James Dungy, he was an 18 year old college student living a thousand miles away from Dad.

 

There was some media speculation that he was high on drugs, but no final toxicology report was made public. James had self-reported an suicide attempt by overdose three months earlier. We just simply don't know why James Dungy committed suicide - my original point with your 'obvious' post.

 

And that's one of the many things that has to change in our society before we will ever begin seeing healthier young people growing into healthier adults.

I'm not sure how to respond to a platitude. Mentally healthy people come from loving, accepting homes? This isn't a societal problem. It's a individual problem. Individuals need to measure their responses. We should never become upset that others have differing opinions to us, especially upset to the point of ad hominem attacks.

 

A friends' daughter got pregnant out-of-wedlock at the age of 20. They said, "We had to decide whether we would respond to our disappointment, or respond to our love. We chose to wrap arms around our daughter and our grandchild." Three years later their then 18 year old son came out to them. They said, "We'd already demonstrated our unconditional love for our children. He knew we would wrap our arms around him."

 

Society didn't have a damn thing to do with this family's response to adversity. These parents and their children did. That's the challenge I see in my life as well. I don't need society to tell me how to behave or what to accept - those are my individual choices.

 

We cannot scream intolerantly against intolerance.

[leigh.bess.toad]

The thought, "I can always kill myself." denies the fact that everyone has people who love them and will be forever damaged by the suicide.

 

ISC -- you are right up to a point. I am not ashamed to talk about my situation. Five and a half months ago, I was order to a pscyh ward by my psychologists and psychiatrist because they suspected, and rightfully so I believe, that I was mere days from taking "the chicken's way out". What people don't understand is that when are you in that moment, you either see the situation as that no one loves you so it won't make a damn bit of difference whether you are here or not or you think they love you but you know, with a certainty that defies rational thought, that you are a burden to them and their lives would be easier without the burden of you hanging around their necks. You view it in some ways as the last gift you can give to the people you love -- relieving them of having you drag them down. I know it was that way in my case.

 

I have said the 5 days in the hospital were 5 days I never want to repeat and 5 days I can't imagine living the rest of my life without having been through the exprerience. In many ways, I credit that time with the exploration that I started just a few months later here that has led me to such remarkable loving people, including you ISC. When you are in the hole, you cannot imagine there is anyway out or any reason why you would want to find one anyway.

[Guest greatness]

Lee we are glad that you are here with us today. We love you here!

[leigh.bess.toad]

Lee we are glad that you are here with us today. We love you here!

 

And G, it is good to be here. I can see how wrong I was. But when that devil has hold of you, there is no such thing as rational thought, no such thing as hope. Now less than 6 months later, my life, although I have issues to overcome, is filled with a great deal of hope and a chance to live the life I was meant to live. It is a struggle every day to beat that demon back -- some on this board have seen that side of me all too plainly. You, yourself have seen one major manifestation of that thought process, I just hide it so well you probably didn't notice it.

 

As I told my new therapist a few months ago, "I have suffered from depression for almost 40 years. Well actually I only suffered from it a couple of those years. the rest of the time I kind of enjoyed it"

 

I value life more now than I ever have, realizing how close I was to stupidly ending my own. And today being what it is, that is my greatest gift of Thanksgiving I have had in many, many decades.

[Guest Zack]

I sometimes think suicide is the ultimate chicken-out attitude. The thought, "I can always kill myself." denies the fact that everyone has people who love them and will be forever damaged by the suicide. I have friends who struggle today with a family member who committed suicide years ago.

 

I of course was speaking of the act itself – not of the life-long devastating aftermath which it often times leaves behind for others.

 

Your "chicken-shit", cowardly way out type conclusion, which many survivors rightly may feel, or even worse yet, those unrelated and unaffected distant observers of such an event who embrace this by proxy, has often times troubled me. I realize that for those personally affected by this, their expressions come from a place of insurmountable and unrelenting pain. I get this.

 

Your impression that "everyone has people who love them" is really an unfortunate admission by yourself of how isolated and disconnected from the real world your life really is, compared to the many other peoples lives which you obviously don't even know exist - sometimes, on an hour to hour basis.

 

When you only view life through the boundaries, capacities and influences which you have defined as your own personal comfort zone and obvious life experiences - it's easy to miss a whole lot of real life and the real life suffering and loneliness going on out there everyday because of it...

 

I'm not sure how to respond to a platitude.

This isn't a societal problem. It's a individual problem.

 

While some people see only platitudes – others might see a more insightful, broader landscape of the human condition and the influences which fuel it's intolerance, bigotry, hate and injustice beginning with ones birth, continuing through young adult-hood and then finally into adult maturity.

 

These abhorrent type characteristics in people, I believe, are generally learned, or at least introduced and then further influenced, by exposure to them from the most influential people in our lives – our family and the various components which define a family.

 

Multiply that by all the people (and their families/friends) which you encounter in your life, whether when young, middle-age or beyond - influence is what defines our society until that influence is countered by something better or even more civilized.

 

Each and every-day of our lives, people are influencing all of us. Whether they influence us through capitalistic advertising, political positioning, fashion, music, celebrity, health, sexual-orientation, pornography, self-help, religion, nutrition, Rx drugs, morality, environmental responsibility - whatever it is - it doesn't matter. It's the world in which we live in and it's the manner in which we respond to these messages which define us as a society.

 

Influence, like genetics, is passed along to all of our off-spring. It's inevitable. It's what happens by simply being present in the moment. The day. The week. The month. The year. The decade.

 

To suggest that who we are, and what we do with our lives has no bearing on the societal influences which actually govern and define who we are for so many; the merits of our individuality and and our individuality from the beginning, to me is sightless and ignorant to our very roots of existence.

 

The people who will save our society and pay it forward will be those who survived it in the first place; those who always knew, or by those that didn't but then learned the difference between tolerance and hate at some point in their lives through the positive influence of others, and then decided to take a stand against it to change it.

 

It's a slow process instudiocity - because it's not about you or the one - it's about the many as a whole. That's called society. It may not reflect who YOU are right now - but it will always reflect a place from where you and everyone else came from in one way or another. And then, what you could become or tried to become because of it.

 

It's unavoidable. Just as is your platitude toward it.

[Guest greatness]

Aww Lee, You encouraged when I felt suicidal with a long email and sent me a nice song. No one has ever done that before. So thank you so much~~~ Kisses and hugs. How should I send you your christmas present? I will come up with a way.

[+ glutes]

Vick scores 28 points with less than 8 minutes? NY Giants fans, I am stunned too!

[dfw2sfo]

V

 

Vick is and shall always be a dick. I don't care what he does with the football. Until he dedicates a significant part of his life and money to animal welfare he maintains his dickitude.

[instudiocity]

Vick is and shall always be a dick. I don't care what he does with the football. Until he dedicates a significant part of his life and money to animal welfare he maintains his dickitude.

 

Let's let him get out of HOCK first.

[+ glutes]

My point of this post is he is one heck of a quarterback.

If he is in hock, I am sure a Super Bowl ring will help...

[seeker630]

My point of this post is he is one heck of a quarterback.

If he is in hock, I am sure a Super Bowl ring will help...

So you can appreciate his talent independent of his character?

 

Hmmmm.