Risky Generalizations (was paying for time)

[Guest albinorat]

This was triggered by the 'paying for time' (beyond the phrase's legal uses)thread. But I thought I'd build more generalizations on it.

 

First thing that struck me about Hagen's post and some of the replies it drew is 'how pathetic we johns are (can be)'.

 

Where I was raised I was taught one doesn't pay to have a friend, or rather someone who is taking money to spend time with one is not a friend. Many escorts are friendly, many johns are clearly lonely and even sad, but finally the notion of 'paying for time' is a scam.

 

A depressed older man whose body and age have made him unfit for the gay community nearest him and terrified to go into a bar -- god knows there's usally no gathering place other than a bar -- who 'just wants to talk' and who pays not only for dinner and drinks but also a high fee for the time spent consuming them deserves our pity. But while people have a right to spend their money as they please (and if they're giving it away, they'll always find takers) that still means 'paying for time' is a genteel rip off.

 

Let's call that man the poster boy for pathos on parade (and an indictment of the 'gay community' with its commercialized body facism) but lets call the 'escort' a predator, sucking up the man's lonliness for extra bucks.

 

I personally am happy to pay for guys who are my type and who can get into my type scene and even seem (act) as though they're having fun doing it. Ninety minutes tops is enough, but depending on the hustler an hour will do.

 

I have been paying since I was a teenager (that's thirty plus years ago) and have met my share of 'characters' who were a lot of fun to be with beyond any sex. But it takes two for fun to happen. I am also fun when the mood's upon me and it's always a hoot to spark with someone else. No one is doing me a favor spending time with me. And as others said in that thread, sometimes it's the john who's doing the favor playing sounding board to the woes of escort life.

 

I have found some escorts remarkably full of themselves, but no more intelligent than anyone else. And though I'm aware Mr. Hagen has degrees I know my share of PH.D's you'd run a mile from rather than exchange ten minutes of chat.

 

The hustlers/escorts I've known who were 'healing' were not the talkers but those who were sex positive with me (a fat man) reasonably able to get into my scene (light b/d) and friendly. Though I've met some terrific escorts, my best memories are of the days of the bars in NYC where on the fly I met some really enjoyable and hot guys who were picking up extra money but were not using 'escorting' as a point of self definition.

 

As far as I can tell many 'Net escorts have become self serious 'professionals' either pompous or coy. Give me the old fashioned fuck for a buck style hustler.

 

I have often defended escorts on various threads because I respect the good ones who deliver sexually with men who wouldn't even touch themselves if they could split and see what they looked like doing the deed. I respect the sexual availability of the best escorts(within safe limits) and the fact that it can be accompanied by kindness and even empathy.

 

The 'pay me for buying me an expensive dinner which I'll eat on your dime and time but call paying for my time' types strike me as thieves and jerks.

 

Sex unleashes forces none of us can predict or control and despite the promiscuous life style many of us lead there is something in people (including gay men) that often wants to reach out after good sex with an appealing partner to seal the intimacy in some way out of bed.

 

Escorts and their clients, it seems to me, make a pact with their pocketbooks. The sex and some of those emotions will be there but an iron curtain descends once the hour (or whatever) is over. Liking a client for more than his money is an occupational hazard, just as liking an escort for himself off the clock can be a serious risk.

 

The best escorts I think are those who set boundaries ('I'm here for hire for as long as we agreed for those acts, then I'm leaving. You are knowing only the sexual self I am projecting') and the best and sanest clients in my opinions are those who accept those boundaries.

 

The great whores always create the boundary without seeming cold blooded. But better a slight chill than a chiseler.

 

Al

[Rod Hagen]

Al, I need to read your thread a bit more carefully-I'm on my way out the door-but I think you are right that Escorting has become within the last (what do you think 5, 6 years) way to cerebral. You miss the old fashion fucking, cash on the TV, cigarette box on the nightstand; and so are uncomfortable with all "The Pedestal" stuff that's developed. Couldn't agree more. This adoration shit's way out of whack. Hence my APOLOGY thread, because it's only recently that I realized this.

 

And I guess that's why a lot of people turn to hustlers, I'm talking the street variety, or those boys who are at Numbers, who are most likely making other men happy and having fun fro icky sex more as a way to earn a quick buck than as a vocation. When it becomes a vocation, me et al, and is glorified and vilified time and time again on the internet and in "academic" books on the subject, you're right, it's just become this rather tiresome form of perpetual adoration, not sex. The sex is missing, right?

 

Al, do you think this is just the result of us all over thinking this (duh) and if so, when do you think the switch from fun and frolic and a quick buck, to I'm so great pay me just to sit across the table from me, occurred?

 

Oh, and you can shove those degree comments up your bunghole, I'm sure there's plenty of room there. It goes without saying, that PhDs etc don't always translate to brainy, and certainly don't make someone "better" than others. And of course there have been PhD’d hustlers LONG before I, with only a few undergrads, came on the scene. That's just obvious, so why are you giving me attitude, dick?

[Rod Hagen]

P.S. Don't call Johns/Clients pathetic. It's all about what makes people happy. And so, even though I now realize, at long last, that we're here for the fucking, those men who WANT to spend, and pay for, more varied time with us should not be denigrated, not by the escorts and not by other clients (this means you).

[Guest 7Zach]

I'v noticed a real change in expectations and the way hiring has worked in hiring off this site or other internet sites as opposed to say pre-early 90s. Then u hired out of the local rag or Advocate, all that was mentioned was stats, age, etc. It was pretty clear-cut, and you were talking purely about the act itself and the price. I don't remember seeing hourly, overnight and travel rates until the net.

 

With on-line ads and other sites, the escort is able to put out much more info about himself, services, etc. Similarly, the escorts have offered new "products" and added "commercial value" to their product. Used to, it was the act itself and stats; now lots of info is offered delineating their superior services, education, social skills, etc. Add to this all the other info conveyed about their private life, life experiences, diary, etc., and and it seems to add nuances to the potential experience.

 

In another thread, someone was worried that an escort hadn't responded to an email, after having had daily emails from a particular escort, and the expected date was for a week-end. Can you imagine that sort of discours pre-net concerning hiring an escort?

 

Yet the escorts do this as client service and client development. To me, the clients intentionally are muddling or confusing the issue of sex vs. companionship/entertainment. It's no longer that of a sex act for hire, but an hourly, daily, week-end rate for false or temporary intimacy or entertainment, including the act. But that seems to be what a lot of the clients are seeking, and the escorts are simply tailoring their services to the market. Besides, there's a lot more money to be made, with the downside to the escort only that of being able to enforce boundaries and willingness to put the hours in.

 

Full service has taken on new meanings in the internet age. And even though I routinely disagree with Reg, he's on mark with the usuage of the word "fans".

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>Oh, and you can shove those degree comments up your

>bunghole, I'm sure there's plenty of room there.

 

I thought from reading your posts you were trying to come off as intelligent, serious & sincere,

 

Do you think the above quoted comment furthers this image?

 

Thunderbuns

[Rod Hagen]

>I thought from reading your posts you were trying to come

>off as intelligent, serious & sincere,

 

Sincere, yes. Serious, yes. Polite, no. I'm just not polite. I'm sometimes arrogant, I'm sometimes humble, I'm sometimes funny, I'm often boring. But generally I'm kind of abrasive. Sorry.

[+ Charlie]

I'm sure there are a lot of guys who do miss the excitement of crude sex with a virtually unknown and potentially dangerous stranger, but there are probably many more who are thankful for the professionalization of the "sex worker". Nowadays it is probably easier to feel confident about what you are getting in an escort whom you hire after reading his website and reviews, and communicating with him via email, than you do about your first encounter with a medical professional, about whom you know little more than his name and specialty. I think most men who hire escorts are as concerned about comfort as they are about excitement, and welcome the new world of "escorting" as opposed to hustling.

[ad rian]

>Yet the escorts do this as client service and client

>development. To me, the clients intentionally are muddling

>or confusing the issue of sex vs.

>companionship/entertainment. It's no longer that of a sex

>act for hire, but an hourly, daily, week-end rate for false

>or temporary intimacy or entertainment, including the act.

>But that seems to be what a lot of the clients are seeking,

>and the escorts are simply tailoring their services to the

>market. Besides, there's a lot more money to be made, with

>the downside to the escort only that of being able to

>enforce boundaries and willingness to put the hours in.

 

Well, I can't resist jumping in here. Why do you blame clients for this trend? In my experience, it is the escorts who are moving it from sexual transactions to companionship for pay. When I lived in Paris, I imported from Amsterdam for the weekend because the rental scene did not really exist in Paris. It always pissed me off that I had to plan a "fun" weekend for the escort. Some entertainment is fine, but frankly I was jusp paying for sex. It was always the escorts who wanted more. I think escorts are doing this as a form of product differentiation. I don't doubt that some (probably older) clients want companionship as much as sex. The question is how do we get appropriate market signals so that escorts who want intimacy meet clients who want companionship, and clients and escorts who just want sex meet up at a market-clearing price!

[Guest 7Zach]

Well, I certainly didn't intend to blame anyone, it's just that it's happened and there is a market for it, or else the escorts wouldn't do it.

But your point makes sense when I think about it - since u were looking for sex, and importd it in, and paid for companionship too.

I know this, the escorts seemed to have gotten control of the market and set the rules, and the market is supporting them. There used to be a high-end market and everyone else, and now it seems more like that they're all high-end. :)And I've always hired at the high-end, but $300 a trick just seems too high to me.

I agree too with the other poster who said that the net, web-pages offered more info, thereby making people more comfortable with what they're getting.

I've hired a lot for the hour, usually meaning a two to three hour appointment. and an equal amount for a summer place out of town or a trip. The main problem I've had doing the latter is that they get so relaxed, that they forget about the intent of the trip. You want to make them feel comfortable, but there's a limit. That's why I always thought (privately) a flat rate with incentives or premiums for more play. But the more that I have hired, the more I seem to be moving toward the just pay and do it mode. Cuz when it's all said done, ur paying for a service, and I neither need nor want to pay for companionship or friendship.

[taylorky]

about all i know about hustling,hooking,escorting,or ho'ing whatever y'all want to call i have learned at this site.but one of the many things i don't understand is ;why do y'all treat it as though it has any real importance in your life. i'll probably get dumped on but.......why do the buyers treat the sellers like stars.after all they are doing the same thing thing as the guy behind the counter at McDonalds.selling a product!albeit in a more intimate manner,but nevertheless just a product. from what i read here most of the buyers(with a couple of glaring exceptions) come across as pretty cool,but a lot of the sellers sound like jerks.so another question is.....why subject yourself to that kind of treatment.........hmmmmmmmm i've said enough bye y'all

[Rick Munroe]

>why do the buyers

>treat the sellers like stars.after all they are doing the

>same thing thing as the guy behind the counter at

>McDonalds.selling a product!

 

You don't think stars are selling a product??

[taylorky]

>You don't think stars are selling a product??

of course they are,but i don't think all those selling something are stars,the McDonalds guy may get your order right but that does not make him a star,my dad may get you a large settlement but that doesn't make him a star,a DR. may cure your clap but ditto....my point is people do what they are paid for or they don't. if they do reward them if not don't patronize them again.but why make them more than what they are.service providers ,employees,or independent contractors. speaking of McDonalds i'm going to go get some fry's

[Rod Hagen]

> speaking of McDonalds i'm going

>to go get some fry's

 

Dude their fries are awesome. They're so salty and soggy. I go apeshit for Mikey D's pomme frittes. They don't even need mayo.

[Rick Munroe]

>the McDonalds guy may get

>your order right but that does not make him a star,my dad

>may get you a large settlement but that doesn't make him a

>star,a DR. may cure your clap but ditto.....but why make

>them more than what they are

 

Does the MickeyD's guy have his photos, accompanied by reviews of his performance, on the internet for the world to see? As for lawyers and doctors not having celebrity status, I'm sure Johnny Cochran and Kevorkian would disagree. How does it make an escort "more than what he is" by acknowleging his fame? We're selling our personalities, our bodies and our skills/talents...of course that's going to make us seem bigger than life.

[Guest SeaGuy]

Well in the world of female prostitution there have always been the cheap whores followed up on the totem pole by the hookers, then the prostitutes, then come the call-girls, then the escorts, and finally we get that mythical creature called the "courtesan" of whom books and poetry have been written, operas and music composed, paintings painted etc. These creatures climb their way up the social ladder and hob-nob with the glitterati sometimes even make it to the White House (hey what the heck was Jackie but a hooker with a pedigree). Frankly anytime anyone does anything for money they risk being called and or considered a "prostitute", but lets not get our titties in a twist in a battle over semantics. We all know what's what and who's who and those of us who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing any stones.

[guyinsf]

Another retread, but why do you think that your preferences and world view should apply to everyone else? Every escort should only sell sex by the hour and leave as soon as the big O occurs, and every client should want the escort he's hired to help him get off and then leave? Why? I appreciate that this is what feels right to you, but why not state it as your preference?

 

I sometimes hire guys for just an hour to get off, and I frequently hire one specific guy to spend the night with. I get different things from the two experiences, though I get sex from both. There is nothing wrong with either. One does not need to be crazy/pathetic/delusional to want to spend more time with an escort than is needed for just the sex. If one can afford to pay for a "date" with an object of one's desire, what's wrong with that? Nothing. It's enjoyable. It is important for both parties to remain grounded and understand what is happening. Until and unless an escort tells you to no longer pay him, your "date" is happening because of the exchange of money. That doesn't negate the intimacy that happens during the evening.

 

I agree that it's silly to put an escort -- any escort -- on a pedestal as a "star." I also think the whole Hollywood "star" machinery is stupid. I don't idolize actors and I rarely go to see a film just because so-and-so is in it. I can enjoy someone's work, however, and may happen to see many of his films if I find the story interesting. The same with an escort: Just because I really like someone and appreciate his work doesn't mean he's a "star." He's just good at what he does.

 

As somewhat of an aside -- certainly not directed at the originator of this thread -- I'm struck by a few common debates here. This one certainly mirrors "gay dating" in general. There are guys who don't want to be in a relationship for whatever reason and prefer to have sex with different guys all the time, or to have a "fuck buddy" who is a frequent sex partner but not much beyond that. There are other guys who are either in relationships or want to be in one. It isn't surprising that there are clients of both types.

 

Another thing I've noticed over time is that some of the clients and escorts here seem quite uncomfortable about what they are doing. On the one hand nearly everyone here seems to believe it's okay to pay for sex, but every once in a while someone seems to have a meltdown and either starts talking about clients being pathetic or escorts being uneducated whores. (I'm not talking about those who come here just to argue, but posters who obviously actually either sell or pay for sex on occasion.) To that I just have to say that it's sad that anyone feels he needs to take out on others his psychological difficulties. I think it's entirely valid for someone to believe that sex for pay is wrong or harmful for himself to engage in, but that person should be working out his issues in some other way (therapy, SLAA group, talking with friends, etc) than berating others.

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>These creatures climb their way up the social ladder and

>hob-nob with the glitterati sometimes even make it to the

>White House (hey what the heck was Jackie but a hooker with

>a pedigree).

 

I was never a Jackie fan and was not even born when she was the First Lady, but I think you are being unfair to say she was a hooker. Did it ever occur to you that maybe she was a Catholic (with 2 childern to raise) who was committed to her marriage vows?

 

It would be interesting to hear you explanation of why you think she was a "hooker with a pedigree"

 

Thunderbuns

[Rick Munroe]

>Another retread, but why do you think that your preferences

>and world view should apply to everyone else? Every escort

>should only sell sex by the hour and leave as soon as the

>big O occurs, and every client should want the escort he's

>hired to help him get off and then leave? Why? I

>appreciate that this is what feels right to you, but why not

>state it as your preference?

 

My thoughts exactly.

[ad rian]

>My thoughts exactly.

 

I don't disagree, but I think we need to develop some signalling device to ensure that escorts who want companionship meet clients who want the same, and clients who want sex primarilly meet escorts who want the same. Maybe, we can learn from the moovie rating system and apply it to escort Ads and Reviews!

[Traveller]

Maybe you give the escort the cash after you've both showered and if he wants to hang with you and you want to hang with him, the business has already been taken care of. Seems to work with me.

 

Later.

 

PS. Working on Sat. sucks.

[HooBoy]

>>>PS. Working on Sat. sucks.<<<

 

Traveller, I think we have long come to the conclusion that you do not work, you party and you fuck.

 

At least that's the perception....

[Guest albinorat]

>>

>Al, do you think this is just the result of us all over

>thinking this (duh) and if so, when do you think the switch

>from fun and frolic and a quick buck, to I'm so great pay me

>just to sit across the table from me, occurred?

>

 

Well, I'm making risky generalizations. I think it's continuity from the urban gay culture (body and youth facism, a sense of entitlement from ruling at the gym, the illusion that there are MILLIONS like you when mainly you're in a over populated ghetto, and the existence of a class of aging/older men who are able and willing to pay very well for sex).

 

We baby boomers are younger and in better health at 55 or even 65 than our fathers were and certainly than our grandfathers were. We've grown up (despite bigotry) in a time when it's increasingly OK to be gay, at least in big cities, so since sexual urges don't go away at whatever age that young gay men now think of as ancient (35?)there is a market for young flesh from baby boomers.

 

Sex is also still the biggest defining occurance in 'gay culture'. We are not talking a coffee house culture where conversation is queen and culture's the key but a hard core bar and party circuit culture where what you can command with your looks or your dough is what makes you worthwhile.

 

It's hard not to internalize those ideas and feelings. I've seen good looking 40 year olds stressing out about their ages, hell I've seen good looking 30 year olds feeling desperately in need of affirmation and horribly insecure because of the competition in the 'scene'.

 

Escorts and clients simply reflect this larger gay culture. The 'escort movement' has gone a long way to legitimize what was once either a guilty secret (for both parties) or a question of having 'innocent' fun once in a while and picking up some extra cash. Also the 'escort movement' has worked hard to remove the criminal stigma from 'sex for pay' among men (when I started hiring a lot of the guys were petty crooks -- didn't mean they weren't hot and weren't honorable with johns but it was wise to hide your credit cards and extra cash).

 

But I do think the 'escort movement' is part of the rigidity of over- all gay culture: commercial, superficial, narcissitic, exploitative and ruthless. I can't blame escorts who take money that is willingly proffered by men who haven't been able to lose the values they lived by into their late 30's if not beyond. And I can't blame escorts for the sky high fees the 'movement' seems to demand (if more than 8 men will pay that much, most escorts will charge and get that much).

 

But again I wonder now much is horneyness (which I applaud) and how much is lonliness and emotional vacancy (which I fear).

 

>Oh, and you can shove those degree comments up your

>bunghole, I'm sure there's plenty of room there.<

 

There is but you won't find out first hand, sorry. I stand by what I said. I didn't mean ONLY escorts with degrees (how many are there really after all?) but PEOPLE with degrees, a good many of whom are horrors one can hardly abide for twenty seconds. I guess I was responding to the implication that because more escorts have formal educations their time is worth paying for. Hell, I like to get as far away from most PEOPLE with degrees who I know as I can -- let alone paying someone who is -- regardless of parchment -- a trick for 'quality time'.

 

Al

[Traveller]

>Traveller, I think we have long come to the conclusion that

>you do not work, you party and you fuck.

>

>At least that's the perception....

 

Partying and fucking are definitely the priority; next is eating and sleeping; but every once in a blue moon, work rears its ugly head. And I went into estate planning (like my doctor friends went into radiology), so work wouldn't interfere with play. Then a client doesn't play by the rules, goes to the doctor for some pain and is going in for a major operation Monday. I keep telling my clients not to visit the doctor on Fridays during the summertime. Do they listen to me? Am I asking for so much?

 

Later.

[Guest chubsksesc]

And we like yo like that too, Big Daddy:9

[Guest chubsksesc]

>But the more that I have hired, the more I

>seem to be moving toward the just pay and do it mode. Cuz

>when it's all said done, ur paying for a service, and I

>neither need nor want to pay for companionship or

>friendship.

 

I couldn't agree more. I have plenty of friends and we share a real relationship. All I want from an Escort is some Yum Yum and respect.

 

In return, he gets my respect and payment in full. A nice tip if me makes me sing.:o