Cluster of bad experiences

[+ Gar1eth]

Michael, sorry to hear about so many bad experiences recently. All the suggestions on this thread are great, but I'd like to go back to one question you raised in your initial post about asking for the money up front. It's an issue that has been discussed here before, and it seems that it doesn't matter at all to some people and it matters a lot to others. Many of the clients to whom it matters speak of the escort's implicit lack of trust that asking up front signals and also express worry that the escort is a scammer who's not going to perform once he's got the money in his hand.

 

I'm one of the clients to whom it matters a lot, but for a very different reason. Meeting escorts for me is an escape from my day-to-day life and all its worries about money and career, relationships, my getting older (and even less attractive than I was before), etc. When I meet an escort, my rational brain knows that the escort is only there because I'm paying him, but my sensual brain would like to forget that fact and experience the interaction in a different, more individual and less mercenary way. As a result, asking me for money at the beginning puts right in my face the thing I'm trying to ignore -- that I'm an ugly older guy who's paying money for sex with a hot young thing. Having that thought foremost in my mind significantly diminishes the experience for me, such that I would likely never go back to that escort again, even if our time together were otherwise great (which of course it probably wouldn't be because of what I'd be thinking about).

 

In terms of counting the money afterwards, I don't feel nearly as strongly. My own habit is to count the escort's fee out several times before we meet and to keep it in a pocket away from any other money I'm carrying. If I miscount (which I doubt I've ever done), I'd expect the escort to tell me, either immediately if he counted it while I was there or later via email or phone if we were already apart, and I would certainly make good on it, either at our next session or otherwise. (If the regular who underpaid you isn't willing to make good on his mistake, it gives you some insight as to how much he values your business relationship with him.)

 

Michael, perhaps I'm unique among potential clients and nobody else thinks like me (I hear that speculation all the time), but you should consider what your clients get out of their time with you (not what you do with them, but the experience they take away with them) before you change your policies concerning money.

 

Good luck to you. I hope the next thread you start is about a cluster of great experiences.

 

As a fumble fingered client, I have made mistakes with the fee. Carrying that much money--especially as I do overnights most of the time--makes me nervous. However as I know this happens occasionally with me--I ask the escorts to count out the money in front of me--either at the beginning or end of the session. That way if I have miscounted I can correct it right then and there--and the escorts know since I had them do it in front of me--that if there is 20 or 30 missing--it really was unintentional and I can make sure they get what was owed.

 

Gman

[+ nycman]

I'm with you Gman. I have often asked escorts to "count the cash"

in front of me. I have been known to get lost in the euphoria and

completely fuck up on my basic math skills. Needless to say I

was mortified. Just for the record, Mike Grey was an angel

about it.

 

For me it's not a buzz kill, it's a relief. I understand that the Charmers

may feel differently, but buck up buttercup. It's a business transaction.

And businesses COUNT their cash...or they go broke.

 

Michael, I understand your frustration. If it's any consolation, all

businesses suck in one way or another. Escorting can have an extra

"punch" because it's very personal, but it shouldn't.

 

For the record I'd never pay an escort up front, any more than I'd

pay my lawyer, doctor, waiter, barber, up front. It's tacky, insulting,

and a bad business practice. If your THAT worried about me paying,

then you need to find a different client.

 

I am sorry to hear about your recent run of bad luck. Hell, if you were

in NYC a few days earlier, I'd hire you just to go to dinner. Sometimes

it's nice to have an easy day at work, to relax and enjoy your job.

 

All indications are that you are a flawless escort. Don't let a few bumps

in the road get you bitter and crazed. Write it off to what it is...an

anomaly. Keep looking for the better clients...and treat them like gold

when you find them.

 

That's the way I approach it from the client side, and so far it's been

one hell of a fun ride. Tons of losers. Lots of funny stories. And a few

real gems that make it all worthwhile!

[Zapped]

Based on suggestions I've read here over the years, I put the fee out in plain sight so that the escort can see it. (At least with well-reviewed escorts.)

 

I thought that Kevin made a good point. You may get shorted once in a while, and that does suck. But if you provide a great service in which there's no air of suspicion or money-centeredness, and exceed expectations, then the extra tips, repeat clients, etc., are going to more than make up for getting shorted or even stiffed once in a while.

 

Every professional has the occasional collection problem. That's just part of any business.

 

I understand that the current economic situation may be bringing on more issues than usual. In the long run, though, I think continuing to offer clients an extraordinary service is going to pay off, and there's a lot to be said for the occasional problem as just the price of doing business.

 

As to no-show clients, I think it's probably an issue of inner conflicts. Have a fantasy, make an appointment, feel guilty about the gay thing, or the money, or the cheating, or the feeling of having to pay, or whatever, freak out, and don't show.

 

All that said, Michael, I understand your frustration.

 

Z

[JoeyBryant]

First off, I symphathise with what has happened to you. We all get them, sometimes all at once for no apparent reason and it can be really annoying. But there's a couple of things you have mentioned that I feel I must address...

 

I emailed a client the night before our appointment, reminding him of my rate and asking him to give me as much notice as possible in the event that anything changes on his end. This was his response to that email:

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...I do not email, call or text clients to remind them of an appointment especially if its for an advanced one. They know they booked you, there's no reason to do extra work by contacting them. Another reason is because of things like this...Why would you remind him of your rate? Did he forget? I doubt it. If something changes, either wait til he tells you, or go about business if he doesn't call. That way you dont waste your time. This is very important for new clients.

 

 

 

During my last visit to Chicago

 

IMO, Chicago is the epitome of timewasters. They are far worst than the ones in Boston...

 

I wore the same socks to the gym for two weeks in a row to accommodate this particular client.

 

I think that was very nice how you were accomodating to the client to go thru such a measure to please him. However, not only was it unsanitary it was harmful to your health and those of your clients. Athletes foot is very contagious and not pleasant.

 

 

and without causing a scene, that his character was questionable.

 

I woulda made a scene, on the spot in a discreet sort of way. But thats just me

 

 

I am getting the impression that my kindness is being mistaken for weakness.

 

Absolutely! This is not a business where you are friends with clients. I dont care who on this forum talks about meeting client's family and being friends. Fuck that. This is a different kind of business. We are friends during the booking, and maybe afterwards, but dont let the guard down when it comes to the standard operating procedures. That includes wearing protection, counting money, and similar things. Again, especially with new clients.

 

 

but relaxed after reading an overwhelming amount of threads about money up front.

 

Who cares! People on these forums say all kinds of shit, which is why sometimes I have to step away because they expect us to behave one way, yet in the real world of escorting it doesnt always allow that!

 

I have never cheated or stolen from anyone, but I would be foolish to allow it to continue happening to me.

 

Thats understandable, but remember thieves dont care about your past or if you stole from anyone or not. Dont allow them to

 

I highly encourage clock watching. My schedule, beyond an agreed upon appointment length, is mine to decide.

 

This is the only part I have to disagree with you. No client wants to feel like you're clock watching. If its obvious, I doubt they'll want to see you again. Regardless of what has happened in the past. A new client doesnt deserve 'baggage' from a past client gone wrong.

[JoeyBryant]

To me, requesting the money upfront suggests the escort has had a hard time being paid before and makes me wonder if he's a scammer

 

No, it goes to show that the escort values himself and that they know (especially incall situations) that a client can dine and ditch and then what?

 

There are some wanna be clients out there that will show up to your hotel, go thru the session and not have any money on them. Then what you going to do? Make a scene and bring attention? Better to atleast see the cash before going thru the whole thing. I have no qualms about bringing up the 'mercantile' before the play. Im an escort, I get paid for it. So no reason to beat around the bush.

 

Even if an escort had a client not pay in the past, thats none of the clients business....

 

I have found that asking for money upfront not only sets a bad tone from the beginning, it is an almost unfailingly accurate predictor of a less than satisfactory escort experience. For me it has been and will remain a deal breaker.

 

Oh give me a break...refer to what I said above. Besides, I've collected money upfront (again, namely with incalls) and the booking has gone superb.

 

Lets get over the no-money upfront and realize that this is a business. Don't be offended if someone ask for it upfront, just realize that in some situations an escort may feel the need to do so. It needn't be an indicator of a scammer, lackluster experience, or a ""money grabbing ho".

[Guest mvan1]

 

"Lets get over the no-money upfront and realize that this is a business. Don't be offended if someone ask for it upfront, just realize that in some situations an escort may feel the need to do so. It needn't be an indicator of a scammer, lackluster experience, or a ""money grabbing ho".

 

/QUOTE.

 

Regardless of what you wrote, there remain clients who feel strongly about paying before a session begins. Of course, there are those who do not mind.

 

As I said earlier, in today's negative economy it only makes sense to be flexible and not show distrust thereby causing the loss of potentially good clients.

[+ ArVaGuy]

Michael, I'm sorry to hear of your recent spate of bad experiences. There are scammers on both sides of the escort/client equation. That there are guys who get off on doing this kind of thing to people is just sad.

 

The money up front issue comes up on these boards from time to time and it’s always the same circular arguments. Most clients don't want to pay up front and most escorts would rather have the money up front. Never the two shall meet on this issue.

 

From my personal experience paying up front is not going to be an option for me. Some years back, I hired a guy who looked really hot in his pics and seemed to have a great attitude on the phone. When I got to his place he demanded the money up front. I told him this was not part of our discussion while making arrangements and stated I would not pay up front.

 

He then started yelling, slammed me up against a wall, pressed his forearm across my throat, punched me, reached for and took my wallet, removed all my cash which was the amount of his fee and a little extra for cab fare, he then hit me again in the stomach. When I slid down the wall to the floor he told me to grab my wallet and get out using all type of foul language and anti-gay slurs. He stepped on my hand as I reached for my wallet.

 

I'm not exactly sure how long this assault took as it all happened so quickly. Maybe all total it was 10 or 12 minutes. I ran out of his place and down the street, flagged a cab and had it take me to an ATM, then back to my place. I should have filed charges against this guy.

 

It was over a year before I hired again after having discovered HooBoy's review site and this forum. The lessons learned from the experience included better screening of potential hires on my part and establishing the payment terms in advance. After this horrible experience my mind cannot help but flash back to this assault whenever the money up front question arises.

[Orson Kane]

I had the enormous pleasure of meeting with Michael again this weekend in DC (and believe I paid the agreed rate) and really feel bad that anybody would short an escort like Michael who really does work hard (as it were) to give a client a good time. DC is town with a less than stellar group of local escorts and it is the fact that escorts like Michael come to town, we in DC are able to have some great experiences. Let's be fair to these escorts though, in that they have to plan these trips, give up whatever their local scene is, and pay the expenses of coming to our city. This is a business and if they can't make the money to cover their expenses because people don't show or (really tacky) short them on payment, good escorts may stop coming to town or really limit themselves to their longer-term, reliable clients.

 

Escorts (at least the ones I have seen) are good people who reliably provide a great service -- I would say treat them the way you would anyone else who provides a good professional service - Do you try to short your car mechanic or stand up your personal trainer with no notice? Probably not, at least if you want to see these folks again or at least want to have a good relationship and not be treated with suspicion.

 

Put yourself in the place of the escort - would you like to travel to a town for business and not get paid? Golden rule applies even in escorting.

 

PS As a matter of courtesy, I always count the money out at the end of a session, just to make sure payment is in full and there is no disagreement on the rate. A few escorts have asked for money up front, which generally doesn't bother me if I am seeing them for the first time and they are well reviewed here (thank you again HooBoy and Daddy for this "Consumer Reports")

[Orson Kane]

I personally don't see anything wrong with seeing the money up front . from what iv read on other boards female escorts normally require the money left out in a visual sight and their clients don't complain or whine about it. I don't see why its a issue lf males had the same rule

 

I do think it is fair however for an escort to tell a potential client that s/he would like to see the payment up front -- Client can not make the appointment if this is a deal breaker. My experience is that most male escorts ask for payment at the end of a session, especially if you are a repeat.

[LouieD]

I have never had a good experience with an escort who charges upfront.

 

I simply won't pay upfront. And, the escort ruins his chance for a tip.

[Guest danwallace]

I am very new to hiring escorts and from what I am reading I guess I am very lucky as well. I've only been with 3 escorts and all were overnights and not one of them ever mentioned money. Even the next morning when it was time to leave, they never mentioned anything and simply waited for me to give them the fee. All three were fantastic and never made it feel like a business deal, for that I thank them. I know there are a few more great one's out there, but I guess I should be thanking David SF, Andrew Justice and Andrew San Diego for making my first experiences so memorable, drama free and exciting.

[JoeyBryant]

I simply won't pay upfront. And, the escort ruins his chance for a tip.

 

I dont want to make it seem like I'm a stricter for money upfront. I also wouldn't demand anything the second I step in the door or them in mine. I have to atleast make sure the client likes what he sees and gets the right vibe from me.

 

But at the same time, some situations seem better to take upfront. Incalls, late-night bookings, and clients who ask for a discount on the 1st phone call or email.

 

Also, I'm flexible. At the least; I would want the client to place it in sight. I think that's a good compromise. It lets us know that there won't be any unexpected trips to their ATM, and at the same time the chances of it being bought up or asked for by the escort is minimal. Everyone is happy.

 

Of course, everybody's going to run their business differently. Thats just how it is.

[buckguy]

Michael--Sorry to hear about your experiences, esp. here in DC. I once accidentally shorted an escort after a long appointment and it was more than $20. He was someone I had seen before and wanted to see again. As soon as I realized the problem, I hightailed back to his hotel, even though it was getting kind of late. He wasn't happy to see me and didn't say much. I explained that I didn't want to leave it with a concierge or just put it in an envelope under the door. I wanted to know he got it and offered an apology. He's the kind of guy who was never comfortable about the money part of the transaction, so it made this more awkward, but I felt it had to be explained nonetheless. I saw him again and we actually have developed a completely platonic friendship.

 

If someone screwed-up, it might be awkward, but I'd expect them to be a mensch abou

t it. Any professional relationship has to be based on mutual respect and in this case, there was good feeling between us that despite the awkwardness, there wasn't a long-term problem. Money upfront is a warning sign to a lot of clients, but the expectation that it's in view for a new client is not unreasonable, esp. if you do an outcall.

[Guest dougiefreshsf]

The Money hurdle

 

Wow, I've been away and just caught up on this!! Glad MV started this thread. Here's what I do as a client. I count the money several times (like others have said) and put it somewhere different from everything else. Then after we are done but before I/he get dressed I put the money on his clothes, or bag or whatever and then call his attention to it "This is for you". I then discretely do something else so he can fan it, count it, or just put it in his pocket. I do this whether it is Kristian (whom I have seen many times over the past 6-7 years or someone new (like the awesome Damien Michaels in Portland) I am seeing for the first time. For me this solves two issues:

1) It allows for the escort to count it if he wants to and correct me if I am wrong - but I have already counted it at least 4 times.

2) We can transact the money at the end of the encounter without reducing the quality of the moment.

As a client I want to let Michael know that there is no excuse for no-shows (on either end) and if someone has second thoughts due to the economy they should have them before the set up something.

[Guest mvan1]

I have never had a good experience with an escort who charges upfront.

 

I simply won't pay upfront. And, the escort ruins his chance for a tip.

 

 

You can add me to this list also. + 1 more

[N.N.]

You can add me to this list also. + 1 more

Me too.

 

It's roughly like escorts not taking blocked phone calls;

you get burned enough times and you make a rule.

 

Almost all the escorts I've hired who asked for $$ up front were disappointing.

[Michael Vincenzo]

The best part of this post is that people are participating and giving different perspectives based upon their own personal beliefs and/or experiences. I can see both sides of this issue, objectively. There is a compromise, somewhere, amongst all of this dialogue and that compromise, or even steadfastness, might vary from situation to situation or from one escort to another.

 

I am certainly not trying to create a standard for the industry by my change of policy. It is from the input of both sides of this conversation that I reconsidered, through compromise, my original change of policy.

 

Hiring an escort is not a unilateral agreement. A client has the advantage of hiring escorts that have a history and are well reviewed to reduce their chances of "problems". An escort should have an equal advantage of making fair and reasonable policies to protect his interests. It is my opinion that a somewhat level playing field, from the start, lends itself to a much more mutually satisfying experience for both the client and escort.

 

In regard to a previous post in this thread, it should never be assumed that trust has been established when an escort meets a new client. It is impossible to create a sense of distrust, through the exchange of money up front or any other action, when trust has not been established. There may be an illusion of trust, but never on my part when I am meeting someone new. We all know that trust is earned.

 

I appreciate everyone's input throughout this post. When I meet a repeat client, pay me at the end. When I meet a new client, put it on a table in clear view. If I'm shortchanged by a repeat client, I will let you know and understand that it was probably human error. If I'm shortchanged by a new client, and it seems to be maliciously intended, then we both walk away screwed.

[Michael Vincenzo]

Wow, I've been away and just caught up on this!! Glad MV started this thread. Here's what I do as a client. I count the money several times (like others have said) and put it somewhere different from everything else. Then after we are done but before I/he get dressed I put the money on his clothes, or bag or whatever and then call his attention to it "This is for you". I then discretely do something else so he can fan it, count it, or just put it in his pocket. I do this whether it is Kristian (whom I have seen many times over the past 6-7 years or someone new (like the awesome Damien Michaels in Portland) I am seeing for the first time. For me this solves two issues:

1) It allows for the escort to count it if he wants to and correct me if I am wrong - but I have already counted it at least 4 times.

2) We can transact the money at the end of the encounter without reducing the quality of the moment.

As a client I want to let Michael know that there is no excuse for no-shows (on either end) and if someone has second thoughts due to the economy they should have them before the set up something.

 

I really like how you operate! I find that fair to both parties involved and appreciate your input. Now that is what I call a reasonable approach!

[Michael Vincenzo]

I had the enormous pleasure of meeting with Michael again this weekend in DC (and believe I paid the agreed rate) and really feel bad that anybody would short an escort like Michael who really does work hard (as it were) to give a client a good time.

 

dan in dc,

 

I'm very flattered by your compliment! Thank you!

 

oh, and by the way, it wasn't you who shorted me.

[jackcali]

Thanks, Dougie, for explaining exactly what I do more clearly than I explained it. I'm always sure the money is right because of the number of times I've counted it and how I've handled it before the appointment. By the way, I sometimes put money for a tip in a different pocket (but again isolated from any other money) in case I'm moved to be generous. If I decide to leave that, it's clearly separate from the larger stack of bills, and I'll indicate to the escort that it's something extra.

[jackcali]

Thanks for the interesting story, buckguy. It's for another thread completely, but I wonder whether any escorts here are uncomfortable with the money exchange. Over time, I've met with guys who are not professional escorts, but who take on one or maybe two regular clients because they need to supplement their day-job's income, and I've found that they are sometimes more uncomfortable about the money than I am. When I start to see one of these "semi-pros" regularly, I tend to pay him by dropping by his bank and depositing the fee in his account a day or two before we meet. That way it's convenient for both of us, I don't have to carry a lot of cash with me and there's no face-to-face exchange of money at all.

[Guest mvan1]

 

In regard to a previous post in this thread, it should never be assumed that trust has been established when an escort meets a new client. It is impossible to create a sense of distrust, through the exchange of money up front or any other action, when trust has not been established. There may be an illusion of trust, but never on my part when I am meeting someone new. We all know that trust is earned.

 

 

I disagree with your statement that trust is earned.

 

In most negotiations reasonable people assume they are dealing with an honest person. Sadly, even people you know and trust can disappoint and cheat you.

 

Nonetheless when an escort insists that money be paid in advance, there is an assumed and built in distrust of the client by the escort. This distrust sets the stage for a potentially disappointing experience for many clients.

 

Not all clients feel this way but I do and many out here have expressed their concurrence.

 

An escort is "shooting himself in the foot" by requiring advance payment from a client.

[Guest LeoWalker]

When I start to see one of these "semi-pros" regularly, I tend to pay him by dropping by his bank and depositing the fee in his account a day or two before we meet. That way it's convenient for both of us, I don't have to carry a lot of cash with me and there's no face-to-face exchange of money at all.

 

I absolutely love this concept and have inferred to it in a previous thread on the same topic. Granted, you've established a relationship with these guys before doing this. It goes both ways with needing the relationship to be established; you don't want to blindly give money (aside from hiring for an overnight, where it usually is necessitated) and an escort wouldn't want a new client to have access to their bank information.

 

I had thought I found a safe solution to this problem...only to find when I started using the network more...I was banned for "excessive usage". So, my ideas on a practical approach to this are gone for now otherwise I can, as you've said, allow certain clients that kind of information for the time being.

 

Listening to both sides, I try to be sympathetic and understanding...though I can't help but often feel this comes down to a control issue. Client keeps money until end: they're in control. Control brings safety and a sense of comfort. If this is the case, clients should also keep in mind the general feeling of the escort. Of course, that's relative to the specific purpose they're searching out. When I see a client, I provide them...me. I'm genuine; it's not a well rehearsed act. So, it goes to say, if I don't feel comfortable...then things most likely won't go well. That is, unless the client is so self-absorbed that they lack the ability or care to notice that they're violating another person. In that case, it really doesn't matter how I feel.

 

The service I strive to provide is way too personal. Unfortunately, there is no perfect solution to how or when to accept the fee.

[Guest novabear22031]

When I meet a repeat client, pay me at the end. When I meet a new client, put it on a table in clear view. If I'm shortchanged by a repeat client, I will let you know and understand that it was probably human error. If I'm shortchanged by a new client, and it seems to be maliciously intended, then we both walk away screwed.

 

Have only hired like four times so far.

 

First one requested payment up front when we meet at the airport over an early lunch (we were going on a cruise together). But we had spent so much time getting to know each other for like three months before the trip (and had his real name for the cruise booking) - that I understood his concern as well. I could have ended up being a cheat and saying "oops, I thought I had the agreed amount" after we had gotten aboard ship. :eek

 

The second one requested the money be on the dresser fanned on the dresser that I told him the location of before his arrival to my hotel room. Large bills so it was just easy for him to do a discreet visual check. He is well reviewed on here so I wasn't worried about a run by him.

 

The third one was a "budget escort" that I saw on Rent Boy that I knew I had seen at one on the bars at a distance. Wasn't sure personality wise we would hit off. So sent him an email saying I would like to meet him for a drink first. He was game since he worked close to the hotel I was staying at. We had a great time over drinks, that led to dinner and walk around the area near the Westin Market Street in SF looking at the window art in that area. I knew what his rate was - yet asked him when he wanted to be paid - he said afterwards - maybe it was just how comfortable and honest we were with each other. He was paid in the end very well - maybe better than he would. LOL

 

The fourth one I met at his hotel. Another well reviewed guy on here. So I sort thought I knew the drill being the first time with him. So I never discussed with him, nor did he discuss with me how things would be paid. So we got to know each other a bit, and he excused himself to the bathroom. I took this as my cue to leave the money in plain sight in the LR area that we were in. We went about our time together and when our time was ending I was saying goodbye. That is when he became concerned. LOL I pointed to the end table - we both had a good laugh over it in the end.

 

I guess for the most part I try to get to know a guy before meeting (via emails and phone calls at least) . And my honesty may betray me at times. But in this last guy - he trusted me even though we were meeting for the first time.

 

Michael, sorry you have been screwed before by new clients. One of the reasons that I look Daddy's here to decide on who I might like to meet. A recent "thing" showed that the forums can be a good thing on lesser reviewed escorts. Decided that after that experience I will only look at well reviewed guys - or at least ask for the 411 in the forum first. In the end I know I was a lucky one with number three perhaps. :eek

[jackcali]

Leo, it really is an incredibly convenient method. I work in Manhattan, and there isn't a bank in NY that doesn't have a branch within three or four blocks of my office. So, when I've got a few free minutes during the day, I can stop at my bank, pick up some cash, walk over to the semi-pro's branch, deposit the correct amount and be done in five minutes -- no worries about miscounts and no need to even discuss money, which I like very much.

 

Of course, there's got to be trust on both sides, but I've been able to establish that trust fairly quickly. I guess I'm taking a risk that the guy's not going to show, but since often the semi-pro's only sources of income are me along with a part-time McJob, I am pretty confident that if we have any chemistry and compatibility, he's much more likely to want the regular cash flow than just to scam me for one session's fee.