Ghandi's Birthday

[Michael Vincenzo]

Gandhi's Birthday

 

I can't think of a better way to celebrate Gandhi's birthday ( 10/2 ) than by going vegetarian (even if just for a day). I am a big proponent of vegetarianism and have been a vegetarian for almost two years now.

 

Gandhi ardently advocated nonviolence and campaigned to end poverty, expand women's rights, encourage self-reliance, and promote peace and respect for all living beings. He believed that "the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."

 

A champion of nonviolence, Mohandas Gandhi served as a political and spiritual leader of India during the Indian independence movement. Through his work, he proved the power of civil disobedience when combined with the philosophy of ahimsa — a Sanskrit word meaning non-violence and compassion towards all beings.

 

You would be surprised to know how many famous people are/were vegetarians: http://www.happycow.net/famous_vegetarians.html

 

This list is pretty amazing! Who most surprises you on this list?

[Karl-G]

Gandhi

 

I admire Gandhi and recognize his many achievements; I also like this pun:

_________________________

 

Mahatma Gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of the time, which produced an impressive set of calluses on his feet. He also ate very little, which made him rather frail, and, with his odd diet, he suffered from bad breath. This made him ....

 

 

 

A super callused fragile mystic hexed by halitosis.

 

 

...

[Guest PWIT]

I can't think of a better way to celebrate Ghandi's birthday ( 10/2 ) than by going vegetarian (even if just for a day). I am a big proponent of vegetarianism and have been a vegetarian for almost two years now.

 

Not to hijack your thread - but have a question about the all veggie diet.

 

I've been spending a lot of time with a vegetarian and have toyed with it off & on, especially when we are traveling or staying together. What always seems to bother me is gas!

 

Seems like when I go on a vegatarian diet I am overcome with gas. Does this happen to you and does it go away with time? Have gone for 2 months w/o much change/relief. Tried Beano, but didn't notice any difference.

 

I can't do too much soy (per doctor direction), so find getting enough protein also a challenge. I have discovered quinoa which helps in that regard, but it is not too common when eating out. What do you do for protein? I seem to have better luck sticking to a pescatarian diet.

[Guest RianB]

I seem to have better luck sticking to a pescatarian diet.

 

I would go crazy to not be able to have seafood. I knew a couple of friends who would only eat crab meat...

 

I came close to a vegan diet but to me its just too bland and living in places like Texas and Florida one is virtually surrounded by resturaunts which have the name steak and sea in it. I'd feel pretty left out Meat tends to stave off hunger longer than rice, beans and lettuce anyday LOL. I also have an intolerance to most fruits on the market, especially strawberries and bananas.

 

I had a roommate who was a vegan, but he was pretty cool about my carniv-; I mean omnivorism ...But when it came down to actually cooking it, I had to open every window and door in the house Those were the only arguments we'd have.

 

Would vegans consider an insect diet if it was introduced here?

[+ purplekow]

I would go crazy to not be able to have seafood. I knew a couple of friends who would only eat crab meat...

 

Would vegans consider an insect diet if it was introduced here?

 

 

I am not a vegan but I do add Vitamin Bee as a supplement before my Ant ipasta especially before vermicelli.

[Guest tuesclavo]

Not to hijack your thread - but have a question about the all veggie diet.

 

Not a hijack, you're question's about becoming vegetarian.

 

Seems like when I go on a vegatarian diet I am overcome with gas. Does this happen to you and does it go away with time?

 

As far as the gas, it will pass. Shifting suddenly to a high fiber diet can do that, you may want to ease into it No expert here but been vegan for 10 years and not a problem.

 

What do you do for protein? I seem to have better luck sticking to a pescatarian diet.

 

Seitan (wheat gluten), tempeh are good protein sources. i use supplements: rice bran; pea protei;, infusion by vega is pretty good has 14 grams protein/serving and no soy. You can get all these from Pangea(veganstore.com). i also found this book very helpful: Becoming Vegan (Davis & Melina, BPC), if you're willing to go that far. if you want to become vegetarian for health reasons and still eat dairy and eggs, you're just going to end up substituting cheese and eggs for meat and it's actually as bad or worse as an ominivourous diet, fish not so bad but they are increasingly raised in the aquatic equivalent of factory farms, and subject to the same issues of disease and inbreeding, as well as pollutants. If your motivation is ethical, chickens and cows used for dairy and eggs live the same short, mechanized, drugged existence as those used for macdonalds and kfc, and recent studies show fish experience pain. that leaves ... well, leaves. There are more and more pretty tasty vegan prepared dinners available (Amy's and Kashi have lots of good stuff).

<end sermon>

[Guest tuesclavo]

what's the buzz?

 

Would vegans consider an insect diet if it was introduced here?

 

A strict vegan doesn't even eat honey, so we wouldn't eat insects. Sorry you will have to peddle that idea elswhere. But after looking at your link, i think i might be able to make room for a little meat here or there. (oops , little not the right word).

[Mark Gordon]

My Favourite Gandhi Quote

 

"I think it would be a good idea."

 

-Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization

[Guest]

A strict vegan doesn't even eat honey, so we wouldn't eat insects. Sorry you will have to peddle that idea elswhere. But after looking at your link, i think i might be able to make room for a little meat here or there. (oops , little not the right word).

 

All right, I'll bit (or sting)... Why don't "strict vegans" eat honey??

[MsGuy]

All right, I'll bit (or sting)... Why don't "strict vegans" eat honey??

 

Isn't Vegan because it's stolen from enslaved bees.

http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

 

Is Vegan because otherwise Vegans come across as cranky hypocrites for not starving themselves to death.

http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

 

It's just bee barf, so even though it's not vegan, don't lose sleep over it.

http://www.seriouseats.com/2008/07/the-great-vegan-honey-debate.html

 

Hey, it's not me, these are their own opinions pretty much in their own words; in a million years I couldn't make this up.

[Guest]

"Enslaved bees"??? Let my people go! I thought it was the Queen who was enslaving those poor, suffering drones. While I do support efforts to reduce animal suffering, those who think honeybees are being "enslaved" have got to be a little nuts...

[MsGuy]

Your reaction is exactly the one Michael Greger, M.D., seeks to avoid (see my second link).

[Luv2play]

Getting back to Gandi, I haven't read all that much about him but do recognize that he advocated non-violence in his quest for independence for India. That is the good part.

 

What I have no idea is what his views were on the caste system in India and where he stood on the inherent discrimination practiced by India against those of the lower castes and particularly the "untouchables". In any event, since India achieved independence over 50 years ago, they have done little to abolish what is a form of apartheid in their so-called democratic country.

 

The Indian government is currently fighting efforts to have their caste system brought before the United Nations as a violation of human rights. What would Gandi have done?

[JoeyBryant]

But after looking at your link, i think i might be able to make room for a little meat here or there. (oops , little not the right word).

 

Ah, see there's nothing wrong with going astray

 

I am not a vegan but I do add Vitamin Bee as a supplement before my Ant ipasta especially before vermicelli.

 

[duke37]

Celebrating Gandhi

 

Show your love for Gandhi with a 25,000 dollar Montblanc pen.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8287754.stm

[+ Shoreboy]

 

Gandi has always been a major hero in my life since to me it showed that one person can indeed make a difference if he/she truly lives what they say.

 

I loved it when someone once asked Gandi if he would ever become a Christian and he responded "I would become a Christian if I ever met one"

[Luv2play]

I've taken the time to inform myself about Gandhi's views on the caste system and apart from learning how to spell his name correctly, I have also learned that his views evolved over time to the point where at the end of his life he opposed the caste system and especially was against the treatment of the untouchables, which unfortunately continues today.

 

It seems he first supported the maintenance of the four major castes and was in favour of abolishing all the sub-castes. He was opposed early on to having a hierarchical ordering of the castes and thought they should all be treated equally. He then moved to opposing even maintaining the distinction between the four major castes.

 

I guess like all great men, he was prepared to change his views as time evolved and to move to a more ethical and democratic position based on his own experiences.

[Guest]

Getting back to Gandi, I haven't read all that much about him but do recognize that he advocated non-violence in his quest for independence for India. That is the good part.

 

In any event, since India achieved independence over 50 years ago, they have done little to abolish what is a form of apartheid in their so-called democratic country.

 

The Indian government is currently fighting efforts to have their caste system brought before the United Nations as a violation of human rights. What would Gandi have done?

 

Hmmm. Have you ever been to India and spoken with the people there? While the caste system is somewhat ingrained in the Hindu religion (which is not a state religion, by the way; lower caste members are certainly free to convert to other religions such as Sikh, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, or Jain), the status of the lower castes is definitely not a part of Indian law (unlike what apartheid was in South Africa). In fact, members of lower castes have a number of legal privileges, including reserved places in many jobs and educational institutions.

For the rabid vegans, Jain is a religion which follows that philosophy. Members of that religion can't even become farmers, since tilling the fields kills insects and earthworms. Rather illogically, however, as extreme veganism is when taken to its extreme (such as not eating honey), Jain members will eat produce grown by farmers. So the logic of refusing to be a farmer eludes me (perhaps it has an economic basis at its true root).

[Luv2play]

Hmmm. Have you ever been to India and spoken with the people there? While the caste system is somewhat ingrained in the Hindu religion (which is not a state religion, by the way; lower caste members are certainly free to convert to other religions such as Sikh, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, or Jain), the status of the lower castes is definitely not a part of Indian law (unlike what apartheid was in South Africa). In fact, members of lower castes have a number of legal privileges, including reserved places in many jobs and educational institutions.

QUOTE]

 

Well, I said I didn't know much about Gandhi and I haven't been to India although I have a nephew married to an Indian and they have Indo-Canadian children. I also know her parents who live in Montreal and we talk about things in India. I don't claim to be any expert at all but then what do you know personally about people from India?

 

You seem to make the argument that it is advantageous to be a member of a lower caste. That is not my impression and being free to convert to another religion is not the same as being free to promote yourself to a higher caste.

 

And so-called "legal privileges" such as reserved places sounds a bit like "separate but equal" but actually is probably more like "separate but less than equal".

 

Anyway, as I said in a later post, Gandhi evolved in his views and I guess at the end of his life, I would have found him to be my kind of guy.

[Lookin]

Another country heard from . . .

 

What happens in the cities may not be common in the rural villages, where seventy percent of India's population lives. One may "escape his caste" by moving to the city and leaving those who know him behind, but it's not common. Most Indians retain their caste for life, and find their place in society determined by it. Especially in the villages.

 

Nota bene: I'm making generalized observations here. As always, there are plenty of exceptions. But I think the broad view is as close to reality as I can get. I'm also intentionally not making any moral judgments. This is not about me. It's about India, Hinduism, and Gandhi.

 

An "untouchable" may get a slot in college, and may become a captain of industry, but he will not become a Brahmin. He may marry a Brahmin, but it would be unusual. Conversely, a Brahmin will not clean the toilets. That will be left to the "untouchables". Outside the cities, marriage within one's own caste will be the rule, and children will be born into that caste and die in that caste.

 

It sounds awful for the lower castes, and it is. They usually live very meager lives in the villages, and may not get enough calories to rail against the system even if they wanted to. Most are resigned to their lot in life. But Hinduism has one thing that most other religions do not: a belief in reincarnation. And that's the way out. If a man lives a good life and dutifully worships his gods, he will be born into a higher caste in the next life. That's the payoff for putting up with one's present life. (Some say the invading Aryans planned it that way, so there'd always be someone to do the crap jobs.)

 

Even early in his political career, Gandhi worked to improve the lot of the "untouchables", as does the Indian government, but I don't think he called for the elimination of the caste system. As Luv2play says, it is ingrained in the religion.

 

I lived in a small town, and spent time in the villages of some of my friends. As a Westerner, I was somewhat outside the caste system. But I recall a couple visiting my house and politely refusing a cup of tea, which was very unusual. I learned later that they were Brahmins and we had a Muslim cook. I also recall walking through a very crowded bazaar, with lots of folks on all sides, and never once being brushed against. I don't know how they did it, but it impresses me to this day.

 

Of course, as India becomes more integrated into the world and becomes more urban (it was eighty percent rural when I was there in the sixties), I expect the direction will be toward some weakening of the caste system. But India and Hinduism have been around a long time. The caste system didn't change much in Gandhi's lifetime, and I don't think it will in mine either.

 

 

PS: Gandhi is my kind of guy also. When I think of what he accomplished by standing there in his loincloth and telling it like it is, I am in awe.

 

PPS: His bitterest disappointment was the separation of India and Pakistan at independence in 1947. He knew there would be trouble, and he was right.

 

PPPS: I was wrong above when I said that Gandhi didn't call for the elimination of caste. While he didn't advocate its abolition immediately, he hoped for the day when it would be gone. He felt it would take a century or more to bring Hindu society around to his views.

[KMEM]

Lookin-

 

Very interesting. I spent a few days there on business in the 80's and it was much as you describe then also. The poverty was heart breaking and I never got used to very large birds being in the airline terminals.

 

My next stop was Karachi, Pakistan. I have never to this day gotten a clearance to fly into Pakistan from India. I eventually went anyway and then relayed through a passing airliner who was talking directly to the airport at Karachi for permission to proceed and finally got it or at least an acknowledgement that I was enroute.

 

Thanks again for your insights.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[Lookin]

Yikes! Weren't you a little nervous?

[Luv2play]

Lookin,

Thanks for your insightful post. Having lived in India in the 60's must have been a fascinating experience. Have you ever read "An Ambassador's Journal", by John Kenneth Galbraith? He was JFK's ambassador to India during Kennedy's presidency. He enjoyed special access to the president since he was a valued economic adviser (he wrote such books as The Affluent Society) and was an extremely literate man who wrote beautiful and insightful memos that were sent directly to the president and not through the secretary of state.

 

Galbraith's account of his time in India is fascinating as he travelled extensively over the country. As well, at this time India was a so-called "non-aligned" country, neither in the west's nor Soviet sphere of influence. Galbraith had a background in agricultural economics and was immensely helpful to India which was struggling to feed its masses at that time.

 

He was also immensely tall, 6foot six inches or so and he absolutely towered over the diminutive Indians such as Nehru who was Prime Minister at that time. His son, Peter Galbraith, is in the news these days as the number 2 of the UN team in Afghanistan who was fired for saying the elections were rigged by Kharzi (sp?). The Galbraith tradition of telling it like it is lives on!

[KMEM]

Yikes! Weren't you a little nervous?

 

More than a little. Basically my choices were to stay in India for an unknown period of time or take into account the long feud between Pakistan and India and proceed. I didn't have enough range to go in any other direction + I had already tried to get the US embassy in Bangkok to help and wasted a day doing that. It was a long journey and I was already getting tired. Not a good reason to go on but I am sure it factored into the equation.

 

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[Orson Kane]

Eating your vegetables to save the world...

 

Seeing Michael Vincenzo's post about Ghandi's birthday and being a vegetarian made me think about the book "Food Matters" by NY Times writer Mark Bittman. The book makes the point that modern agriculture uses huge amount of fossil fuels for fertilizer and transportation to give us cheap, readily available food that has fattened us up and made us unhealthly (in addition to creating inhumane conditions for animals we eat). Bittman doesn't argue that we should all go hardcore vegetarian (though I would give up more than beef to have a body like Michael's - he definitely is a poster child for vegetarianism). Rather, he suggests we all cut back on our meat eating, especially beef. In doing so, we can also cut back on all of fossil fuel and land use that bring us today's meat-based diet. Basically the petroleum used to put a a steak dinner on the table is the same it takes to drive an SUV around for an hour.

 

Bittman's book is a good one that is easy to read that will steer (bad pun) you toward a healthier, more environmentally friendly diet and likely make you lighter and healthier too.

 

 

 

 

 

I can't think of a better way to celebrate Gandhi's birthday ( 10/2 ) than by going vegetarian (even if just for a day). I am a big proponent of vegetarianism and have been a vegetarian for almost two years now.

 

Gandhi ardently advocated nonviolence and campaigned to end poverty, expand women's rights, encourage self-reliance, and promote peace and respect for all living beings. He believed that "the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."

 

A champion of nonviolence, Mohandas Gandhi served as a political and spiritual leader of India during the Indian independence movement. Through his work, he proved the power of civil disobedience when combined with the philosophy of ahimsa — a Sanskrit word meaning non-violence and compassion towards all beings.

 

You would be surprised to know how many famous people are/were vegetarians: http://www.happycow.net/famous_vegetarians.html

 

This list is pretty amazing! Who most surprises you on this list?