Regarding Michael Vick

[Michael Vincenzo]

This columnist gets huge props from me!

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/10/AR2009081002454.html

[Guest ryan2552]

Michael VIck made huge, horrific mistakes and he is trying to correct them. According to law he has paid his debt ... if one doesn't like the law then they can vote for lawmakers that are more in line with their point of view.

 

I look forward to Michael Vick playing again in the NFL. When do we use the power of forgiveness?

[alanalt]

Sorry ryan, but I thought the column was a good one too (which means I agree with Michael Vincenzo, an historic occasion!! ). Some things can never be fully restored, no matter how hard one 'tries to correct them' after the fact.

 

As for 'forgiving' Mr. Vick, I believe, like many criminals, he's sincerely sorry he got caught. Beyond that, I have significant doubts about the sincerity of his repentance. Perhaps I would feel differently if he had voluntarily disbanded his operation before being investigated or charged or if he had not stoutly maintained his innocence until it was clear that several of his partners were prepared to testify against him. So whether his subsequent apologies/repentance marks a heartfelt change of attitude or is simply part of Vick making the best deal he could get depends on a moral/ethical judgement made by any interested individual but is not one the law is (or should be) expected or required to make...

 

In other words, while I agree with you "according to the law he has paid his debt", the question here goes beyond a strictly legal one - it covers questions like morality and ethics... I believe in a society of laws, but I also believe in a concept of justice that goes beyond those laws and one's actions can result in consequences beyond merely legal ones. Nor does serving time/paying fines necessarily wipe the slate clean. There are many instances of a society imposing other 'sanctions' against convicted criminals other than strictly legal ones. For instance, many governments will not admit people with criminal convictions to enter their countries. For that matter, there are plenty of employers/businesses/industries out there who will not employ someone with a criminal conviction, so Cohen's hardly singling out either the NFL or Michael Vick for suggesting something similar happen here!

 

Alan

[jeepman]

Vick

 

He may have paid his "legal" debt to society, but how about his moral one?

Talk is cheap; I don't buy his bullshit remorse act for a second.

[Guest ryan2552]

He may have paid his "legal" debt to society, but how about his moral one?

 

isn't it up to God to judge this? Or are you making the moral judgment on God's behalf?

[Guest ryan2552]

Sorry ryan, but I thought the column was a good one too (which means I agree with Michael Vincenzo, an historic occasion!! ). Some things can never be fully restored, no matter how hard one 'tries to correct them' after the fact.

 

As for 'forgiving' Mr. Vick, I believe, like many criminals, he's sincerely sorry he got caught. Beyond that, I have significant doubts about the sincerity of his repentance.

 

Alan

 

Alan I know many here will not agree with me. But thats ok as if we were all the same it sure would be boring.

 

However, I do want to point out that neither of us are close enough to the situation to know what is in Michael Vicks heart. Therefore, I believe we need to move forward instead of trying to play psychic.

 

His actions will speak louder than any press over the long term.

 

And this is a general question not directed at you Alan ... Since according to society Michael Vick has completed his sentence what would you have him do to earn a living? Rob banks, work at 7/11?

[+ purplekow]

There is a show entitled Dogtown. Dogtown is a last resort shelter for abused, homeless and injured dogs. Many of Michael Vick's surviving dogs went to Dogtown. After extensive retraining and much human kindness, many were able to be adopted back into society. Others will live out their life in Dogtown. There was an hour special on the show Dogtown that focused on the lucky Michael Vick dogs which made it that far. For a dog lover, it was a heartbreaking and melancholy episode and for me, it put a canine face on the random news stories and with that face, the story became all the more frustrating and my contempt for Mr. Vick's actions more intense. Now if Mr. Vick made some sort of effort to care for the dogs and paid for their care and the care of the others adopted, well that would be a big step toward legitimizing his professed sorrow. As it is, I don't find any empathy for him. I would not watch a game if he played for one of the teams. We can't force others to do what we wish they would but we can, by our words and actions, let it be known that for our personal morals and values, this behavior was unacceptable, this punishment insufficient and this apology weak and lacking in sincerity.

[Guest TBinCHI]

Alan I know many here will not agree with me. But thats ok as if we were all the same it sure would be boring.

 

However, I do want to point out that neither of us are close enough to the situation to know what is in Michael Vicks heart. Therefore, I believe we need to move forward instead of trying to play psychic.

 

His actions will speak louder than any press over the long term.

 

 

Yes, and as Alan has pointed out, his actions in denying his sickening involvement in that travesty speak grandly of his lack of character.

 

 

 

And this is a general question not directed at you Alan ... Since according to society Michael Vick has completed his sentence what would you have him do to earn a living? Rob banks, work at 7/11?

 

I would love to see the miserable SOB trying to earn a living working at a 7/11. Better yet, how about a minimum wage job shovelling dog shit at a shelter. I am not impressed at all that he has "paid his debt to society." So what. Let him live the rest of his life without the glory and money that he so cavalierly traded for a bit of adrenaline and gore.

 

The article, however, is about much more than Michael Vick. Cohen is spot on about the lure of big sports and its insidious influence over our society and especially our youth. That will only change if we respond strongly to the Michael Vicks of the world and banish them from the sports kingdom when they exhibit the behavior that he did.

 

Just my two cents.

[alanalt]

Alan I know many here will not agree with me. But thats ok as if we were all the same it sure would be boring.

 

Agreed. I've never said anyone has to feel the same way I do on a whole variety of subjects, though in terms of common ground I think we can (and should) all agree that Mr. Vick's past actions were morally reprehensible...

 

However, I do want to point out that neither of us are close enough to the situation to know what is in Michael Vicks heart. Therefore, I believe we need to move forward instead of trying to play psychic.

 

I never claimed to know what's in Vick's 'heart'. I offered an opinion that I questioned his 'remorse' along with some reasons why I hold that opinion. Actions carry consequences and some things can never be undone...

 

And this is a general question not directed at you Alan ... Since according to society Michael Vick has completed his sentence what would you have him do to earn a living? Rob banks, work at 7/11?

 

No, according to the law Mr. Vick has completed his sentence. His status in 'society' is something completely different and there seems to be no consensus by society whether his 'debt' has indeed been paid... As for Mr. Vick's future, I'll be blunt and say that worrying about the future job prospects of a millionaire ex-football player isn't exactly going to keep me awake at night. But I'll be highly surprised if Vick didn't sock enough away while earning a salary that 99+ per cent of the population can only dream of to make either career option you suggest unnecessary!

 

But you want a 'job' for Mr. Vick? How about a couple of years as an unpaid (and supervised) volunteer with a local Humane Society. Not as part of his legal sentence, but as an opportunity to show his remorse is sincere!!! Indeed, he could end up with a career as a spokesperson and fund-raiser for such organizations!!!

[Guest TexHunk69]

Once a loser, always a loser

 

No amount of jail time can change a piece of garbage who hurts animals into anything but a piece of garbage who's hurt animals. Michael Vick doesn't deserve the breath it takes to debate his fate. Sadly, the sentences passed down in animal cruelty cases are woefully lax compared to the pain these dogs endured. Vick should have to register as an animal abuser and they should put out notices wherever he goes to live. Am I judgemental? You bet! Losers like Vick, DMX, and other animal abusers don't deserve pity, forgiveness or charity. They aren't remorseful except for the inconvenience it's caused in their life when they are caught. May Michael Vick get stuck in an elevator with a bunch of rabid PETA protesters! LOL

[Guest zipperzone]

isn't it up to God to judge this? Or are you making the moral judgment on God's behalf?

 

What kind of panty-waist comment is that. Don't start with the religious God crap. It just shows that you don't have the balls or the moral fiber to stand up for what is right, unless you happen to think that dog fighting is a right that should be enshrined in the constitution.

[Guest zipperzone]

Losers like Vick, DMX, and other animal abusers don't deserve pity, forgiveness or charity. They aren't remorseful except for the inconvenience it's caused in their life when they are caught. May Michael Vick get stuck in an elevator with a bunch of rabid PETA protesters! LOL

 

Better still - let him get stuck in an elevator with a bunch of unmuzzled pit-bulls.

[Guest ryan2552]

Interesting, several posters refer to Michael Vick's financial success.

 

Isn't that more envy than outrage for the horrific acts he committed?

 

Why would anyone care if he continued to get paid millions for what he does best? What does that have to do with his debt that according to the courts has been paid. He owes "society" nothing at this point.

 

As I noted the ultimate judgment will be by God not by you zipper

 

Anyway I think my views are well expressed on this topic so won't comment further.

[jeepman]

Moral Judgment?

 

I am not making any judgment calls on God's behalf; God will make his own judgment of Vick when the time is right. All I'm saying is that if Vick and his buds had such high moral standards they would not inflicted the pain on those animals that they did. As far as I'm concerned, and you can certainly feel free to disgree and I won't stay awake tonite worrying about it, to do what Vick and his buds did shows me that they had no morals to begin with; certainly not the kind oft morals that I would expect a real man to possess. And I don't believe that he all of a sudden found his morals after such a short time in the big house just like a real man doesn't grow balls overnight.

[Bart]

Mr. Vick has been signed

 

Michael Vick has just been signed by Philidelphia Eagles for two years. I have just listed to a reputable sports reporter state that if he had not been signed the NFL should be sued for collusion. This is not support or denial of Mr Vick to come back to football or not, the question would be do we believe any person convicted of a serious felony can return to society or not. He does have the right to pursue employment, if someone chooses to hire them that is up to them. We can boycott the NFL but not likely to do much damage.

[kjun]

What kind of panty-waist comment is that. Don't start with the religious God crap. It just shows that you don't have the balls or the moral fiber to stand up for what is right, unless you happen to think that dog fighting is a right that should be enshrined in the constitution.

 

Right on Zipperzone!

[rvwnsd]

I find it very difficult to believe that Michael Vick would never put a dog, cat, or other animal in danger again. For that matter, I doubt that he would draw the line at endangering a similarly at-his-mercy human. True, he has served his sentence, but has he really paid off the debt he incurred by glorifying the brutalization of animals? If he was a banker and not a sports figure, he would probably never work in his chosen profession again.

[+ purplekow]

Philadelphia Eagles is the one team he could join and actually raise the standards. Go Giants. I have not missed a Giant game either at the stadium or on tv in about 15 years, if Vick is a member of the Eagles, I will be missing two games this year. Small personal protest and I will encourage others to do the same

[Guest zipperzone]

He owes "society" nothing at this point.

 

As I noted the ultimate judgment will be by God not by you zipper

 

Anyway I think my views are well expressed on this topic so won't comment further.

 

1: He owes "society" a great deal at this point. A debt that is unlikely to be paid, and a debt that you're unlikely to understand.

 

2: And your ultimate judgment will also be by God - You'd be well advised to start praying - a lot.

 

3: (a) your delusional (b) I'm relieved

[Guest RianB]

I think majority of the world in general treats dogs like shit. To harp on Micheal Vick and DMX as being ruthless animal killers is a bit over the top. I've seen documentries on what some things happen to farm animals that'll make one not want to eat meat. I've seen so called 'loving' pet owners grab their dog by the collar and yank them to eye level to the point of choking. Yet they can be let off the hook cos its just one dog, cos they take them to the vet and pedigreed and up to date on shots? Yeah right. To strangle and kick a dog is no better than raising a pack for fighting.

 

People grow to learn that dogs have to be beat up so they can listen. Thats bullshit. Animal activist has been all over Vicks ass. I think he learned his lesson. Give him a break. Instead of attacking one person, focus on teaching people the right way to train their dogs. Vicks case is dead and buried....theres so much more dogs who need help.

[Guest TBinCHI]

I think majority of the world in general treats dogs like shit. To harp on Micheal Vick and DMX as being ruthless animal killers is a bit over the top.

 

The majority of the world does not drown, hang, or electrocute dogs who don't exhibit the viciousness that the dog fighting world gets off on. While I agree that people who train their dogs by beating them are also scum, they simply are not in the same level of hell as Vick and his ilk. Vick and his ilk ARE ruthless animal killers. And, if you wish to focus on the plight of other animals which are systematically mistreated, you would be well advised never to stop harping on the worst of the worst - Michael Vick and his ilk - just broaden your focus to include the others.

[Michael Vincenzo]

Forum rules

 

No offense to anyone's religious beliefs, but the rules of this forum state that discussion of religion is forbidden.

[Guest Wetnwildbear]

Eagles are Asswipes!

 

I am horrified that my hometown team would hire this arrogant,repugnant, vile, scumfilled excuse for a human being.

 

I am not an animal rights activist - but will be protesting at the first game, have already written a letter to the editor of the Philadelphia Inquirier and Daily News and to the Eagles organization.

 

I am DISGUSTED!

[Michael Vincenzo]

He owes "society" nothing at this point.

 

Sex offenders owe the rest of their lives by having their photos and addresses posted online, restrictions on where they reside, notification to neighbors when they move in, and little chance of getting a decent job. I am certainly not condoning the actions of sex offenders, but I find it rather ironic that more restrictions are placed on them than murderers (of humans or animals).

 

Violent acts toward animals have long been recognized as indicators of a dangerous psychopathy that does not confine itself to animals. “Anyone who has accustomed himself to regard the life of any living creature as worthless is in danger of arriving also at the idea of worthless human lives,” wrote humanitarian Dr. Albert Schweitzer. “Murderers ... very often start out by killing and torturing animals as kids,” according to Robert K. Ressler, who developed profiles of serial killers for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). Studies have now convinced sociologists, lawmakers, and the courts that acts of cruelty toward animals deserve our attention. They can be the first sign of a violent pathology that includes human victims.

 

Animal abuse is not just the result of a minor personality flaw in the abuser but rather a symptom of a deep mental disturbance. Research in psychology and criminology shows that people who commit acts of cruelty toward animals don’t stop there; many of them move on to their fellow humans.

 

The FBI has found that a history of cruelty to animals is one of the traits that regularly appear in its computer records of serial rapists and murderers, and the standard diagnostic and treatment manual for psychiatric and emotional disorders lists cruelty to animals as a diagnostic criterion for conduct disorders.

 

For more information: http://aacantiques.com/animalabuse.htm

 

Good luck Philadelphia!

[Guest ryan2552]

No offense to anyone's religious beliefs, but the rules of this forum state that discussion of religion is forbidden.

 

Michael while the mention of God by myself and others hardly means there is a discussion of religion your post did get my attention. So I went to the bottom of this forum where I found a link to the mc rules and do not see anything that would make the discussion of religion "forbidden."

 

This is what I found, "Discussions of a political or religious nature are far from the Message Center’s original goal. However, we respect those who wish to create and join these discussions. We do ask, though, that you post threads that deal with political and/or religious issues in the Politics and Religion forum."

 

I apologize if I offended you by mentioning God and will try to cease from doing so in the future.