Do You Still Believe There Is A God..

[Godiva]

After 9/11 and the many horrific events that have plagued the world in our lifetimes and before, our individual faiths have been tested more now than ever before.. The news media would have us to believe that attendance at USA churches has increased dramatically. The conflict still exsist for many that we are in church praying to the same God that would allow these events to happen from the begining..

 

There are quite a few lost souls now wandering NYC after 9/11, fighting their own personal conflicts with religion. As we began the New Year.. How has your faith been tested?? Are you stronger? , Are you more confused? or Have you given up completely??

 

 

Happy New Year

G

[Boston Guy]

I was born into a Catholic family and attended both public and Catholic schools and am a product of a Jesuit education. But I decided long ago that I did not believe in God, or at least not any god similar to the ones promulgated by what I see as human cultural and historical myths.

 

There are times when it would be easier, perhaps, to have the kind of religious faith that is so comforting to others. But faith is not something that can or should be turned on or off; you either have it or you don't.

 

I don't.

[Godiva]

I apologize for posting this in the wrong forum..It should be in the lounge..

 

I look forward to your dialog..

 

G

[+ Lucky]

Faith is a gift, you either accept it or you don't.

After tragedies, we all question what the hell God was thinking. But that's just it, he ain't. His job was done long ago, it's our turn now.

 

P.S. Godiva: So there you are! When I posted my invitation to discuss closet life, you were one of the main people I had hoped to hear from. You mentioned that your girl friend had no clue, etc. and I was curious how that life works for you. Still curious.

[Guest WetDream]

The Inquisition...The Holocaust...A.I.D.S....famine, fire, floods and innumerable natural and unnatural disasters. It is the same old God. You either believe or you don't. I don't.

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>There are times when it would be easier, perhaps, to have

>the kind of religious faith that is so comforting to others.

> But faith is not something that can or should be turned on

>or off; you either have it or you don't.

>

>I don't.

 

I have agree with you on this one. I also dodn't believe there is a god. I admit there has to be an explanation for everything - planet earth, humans, nature and so on, and so on. But if I were to dedicate the rest of my life to discovering what it is, I know I would never find the answer. As I have never believed in bashing my head against a brick wall - I don't even try.

 

I feel those who are extremly religious, use their religion as a crutch. If that works for them and helps them get through life with all it's ups & downs, I say great. Unfortunately it just doesn't work for me. It is not my intention in this post to knock those with religious beliefs - it is simply a case of different strokes for different folks.

 

Thunderbuns

[Guest]

I never believed in a god myself. Nor did I ever believe in Santa Claus. I spent my nursery & kindergarten years in a tropical city, and the idea that there was a guy in a sleigh landing on peoples' roofs seemed absurd. Something doesn't exist just because you want it to.

Of course, people will continue to believe whatever fits their belief system. When those Christian missionaries in Afghanistan were rescued, they thanked God, and never once thanked the rescuers who risked their lives to save their stupid asses. The irony was that Bin Laden also praised God for the 9/11 massacres.

My favorite is when football players or coaches say that they won because God was on their side. As if God would give preference to their football team. Some people just love going through life acting as if God cares more about them than others, and that when something goes their way, it's God's will.

[Guest scrtlovr]

I've always believed in God. As in - a particle of God being in all of us. After 09/11, more than ever, I believe in fate or karma. On the one hand, there are no words for the friends and families of the victims. On the other hand, when you think of the magnitude - a whole chunk of a neighborhood just gone - it is a miracle that no more than 3000 people died. It could have easily been 30,000 and for that I am grateful, even if this is hardly of any consolation to those who lost loved ones in the tragedy.

 

As a New Yorker, I still feel that we have been spared most of the world's great tragedies and in spite of 09/11, we, in this country, for the most part, still live a priviledged and sheltered life...

[Guest Kevin 2]

<My favorite is when football players or coaches say that they won because God was on their side.>

Better yet I love it when the rap stars that sing about rape,killing,etc.. praise GOD when they win an award for their "talent"! :o

[Guest Charon]

I believe in the divine, but I do not believe in god. There is something greater than us I think, but it isn't aware in the sense of a big daddy in the sky tsk'ing at his naughty children. I have a hard time imagining how anyone could reconcile such an image of god with what happens in the world around us, unless you added that the God was remarkably cruel as well.

[Godiva]

Thanxs for posting very interesting...

 

I wonder though..Are there more non-believers in God within the Gay Community?? It certainly seems that way so far..

 

 

G

[Guest ssn774]

"It makes more sense to believe in God than to not believe. If you believe, and God exists, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If you do not believe, and God exists, you will be punished for your disbelief. If God does not exist, you have lost nothing either way."

 

Paraphrase of Pascal's Wager

Blaise Pascal (1623-62)

[sdg]

ssn

 

its that kinda thinking that really annoys those that sorta want to believe but intellectually can not. to tell them to pretend to believe cause then god will reward them sucks. god will reward anyone who is worthy regardless of their belief or non belief. any other type of god for me can not exist and should not exist.

 

sdg

[Guest LG320126]

The short answer is an emphatic "YES" and although I have even been very active in church at one time, I have drifted away, not due to nonbelief, but by some of the hypocrits that profess to be Christians for show and not due to their beliefs. I do believe that we should all worship in one way or other as we see fit and God will judge us on our individual merits.

[Bastian]

The readers of the Message Center whose internal conflicts with religion and faith are based on the anthropomorphizing of God, the reality of inequality and violence on Earth, the fable-like timbre of most religious accounts, or the compilation most often referred to as the Bible, I suggest the following for your perusal:

 

http://www.deism.com

 

It is an idea which took hold (unsurprisingly) in the 18th Century, emphasizing the inherent, natural power of human reason. The company kept in this "religion" is none too shabby, including Thomas Paine, Albert Einstein, me...(big )

 

Bastian

[Guest RydeMyButt]

One of the fundamental elements of Christian Faith is that Grace (which can mean everything from God's presence and blessings in our lives to ultimate salvation) is a gift freely given, without strings or conditions.

 

People too often try and phrase their religion in terms of a bargain (ie, "if" God does this, "then" I will do that...) and use God as a scapegoat (a biblical concept) for unfortunate conditions in their lives. The Old Testament is filled with examples of God making covenant after covenant with the Jews, only to have his Chosen People break them. Ultimately, then, the Word was made Flesh - God took human form, assuming all our various characteristics, and suffered death, so that the rest of us (whether we believe or not) would not die. What we could not achieve for ourselves, God has given us.

 

God is not responsible for the evil in our world. We, as human beings, possess Free Will, and if you look closely, you will find that just about every social calamity which has occurred in our history (war, terrorist bombings, AIDS, etc.)can be directly traced to acts of Man, not God. Even many natural disasters are somewhat less than "natural"...the damage done by fires, floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, etc. are often the result of our living conditions, building materials, engineering standards (haven't you noticed that earthquakes which we in the US would just shrug off seem to kill tens of thousands of people when they occur in Turkey or Iran or similar places).

 

Faith is tested when we lose our ability to trust completely in God's love and mercy, and surrender ourselves to His will. Therefore (speaking only for myself), while calamities often test my faith in our various governmental and social institutions, they never test my faith in a loving, benevolent, Triune God.

 

Cheers,

[Damascene]

God is dead. Long live God.

 

When I was young, I was such a pious Catholic boy. Then I realized

I was gay. Pious catholic boys can't be gay. So I stopped believing in

the Catholic Church, but I still believed in the Trinity. I did lots

of research and was no longer sure there was a trinity, but I

believed in God. I explored Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism,

Shamanism, Wicca, and Taoism. I did not find the answer. I decided

I did not believe in religion, each person must find their own path

to God. I did not find that path, I decided I did not believe there is a God.

 

At one point I could not imagine in a world without God; now I cannot

imagine God within this world. I believe in the here and the now.

When I die, I won't care that there is no heaven; for I will be ashes

spread in a ceremony to bring comfort those who survive me. For me,

there will be non-existence. Hey I guess I'm a Buddhist after all. ;-)

[Guest chaz49wm]

GUYS if there is no GOD then who made these hot boys and men we all lust after, throw or attention on and want to spend time and money with??? ITs a vicious circle. HUGS :9

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>I explored Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism,

>Shamanism, Wicca, and Taoism. I did not find the answer.

 

Not sure about the other religions but in Buddhism, or at least the Soto Zen school I used to practice in fairly intensely (I'm more of a Church of England Buddhist now), it's not so much about "the answer" or any answers but more about the process. Of course, the processes of Buddhism can be a little strange and are definitely not for everybody. Especially as practiced in the West, it's not so much a proselytizing religion as one that is sought out by people of a certain type of spiritually seeking temperament. Scriptures are available but aren't nearly as important or central as they are to the Abrahamic religions. And you can pretty much have whatever ideas about God -- or not -- you want and still be a Buddhist. Belief in general isn't terribly important, and may even in some cases be an impediment to spiritual understanding. On the other hand, Buddhism has a lot of the trappings of religion -- priests, incense, ritual, lineages, chanting. All this without the belief -- a lot of people find it too weird.

 

What I valued about it, though, was precisely the intellectual independence one was permitted, along with a fairly high degree of autonomy over one's personal life, all while undergoing a fairly rigorous practice in a communal setting (I lived at a Zen center for a year and a half). This doesn't mean that I always thought the Zen students around me took advantage of that independence or that autonomy. I found the politics, in particular, of a lot of the Zen students to be too lockstep and knee-jerk in its pacifism and anti-Americanism. They were so devoted to the articles of faith that war is always wrong and America is the big bad aggressor in the world that they reacted to 9/11 in a callow, morally boneless fashion. It was interesting, because I think 9/11 left me feeling more of a desire for the comforts of a sangha, but I was too repulsed by the politicking at my temple's day of mourning service. The tone was so business as usual; this was just another service at which to send a veiled anti-war message under the guise of mourning and celebrating the dead. I haven't been back. I don't see that decision as turning my back on my Zen training, but rather an application of what I learned.

[Godiva]

Guys this is deep..I Like I Like..:-)

 

Now then ..What about hell? Is there such a place?? or as many of my friends believe..We are in hell now..

 

 

"you stole my Jesus fish..."

 

G

[Guest WetDream]

RE: Hell

 

Hell is other people -- J.P. Sartre

[OneFinger]

I, too, was raised in a very religious family and spent the first 27 years of my life as a faithful Mormon. During the coming out process, I became a "born again church skeptic" and remain 100% anti-religion.

 

However, I do believe there is still a god, higher power, or supreme being. I just haven't been able to find a religious organization that is liberal enough to allow me to define "god" within my own set of beliefs and parameters.

 

I do not blame god for problems within the world or my personal life. Sometimes humanity does awful things to themselves. Since I don't believe god is a magician, s/he can't wave a magic wand and fix things. I firmly believe that god can't over-ride scientific law and must act within those laws (even if we mortals can't yet understand those laws).

 

But, there have been too many instances in my life for me not to believe in some type of divine inspiration. In the past few weeks, after 9/11, I still find my life being guided by a higher power. Times when I have been in a quandry or needed guidance, I have received the answers or inspiration I've needed.

 

And, do I feel there are less believers in the gay community? Well, I think there are fewer people that belong to religious organizations. But I believe there is a strong spiritual element among gays.

[Guest doc]

Yes, I believe in God. My personal beleief is that life does not become easier, it becomes more difficult when you accept God. When I was confirmed into the Church, I professed my belief in GOD, but it was superficial, I went through the motions as my parents had me do. As I grew older I sensed there was something missing in my life. Religion, was what I was missing.

 

I cannot explain the events of 9/11, anymore than I can explain the horrific events of WWII, or why a small child who has done nothing to hurt anyone and dies of SIDS. I work on an ambulance and I have seen many terrble things, I have also witnessed what I would call a "miracle." That "miracle" has restored my faith and keeps it strong.

 

People you don't see oxygen, but you know it is there. Just as I cannot see God, but I know he is here.

[Guest LG320126]

Very well put Doc.

[phage]

I would never belittle your faith, but that’s what it is…faith. You don’t see oxygen, but it can be scientifically proven to be there so it’s not really the same thing.

 

When I was trying to believe (ex-Mormon like OneFinger) my vision of God was a being who set things in motion and created an environment where souls could learn and grow, but didn’t micromanage events and rarely intervened. This helped me accept the horrible things that happen in the world without blaming God. This is similar to OneFinger’s beliefs and no coincidence I’m sure – considering how we were both raised.

 

As I grew older, I became more and more cynical. At first I just couldn’t forgive my version of God for not intervening more often and allowing such horrible things to happen. Then I just grew to believe there is no force or intelligence there at all and it’s all just random occurrences.