Closet Life- An Invitation to a Discussion

[+ Lucky]

It's been a few years now, but I used to be a closet case. What I hated about it was having to hide who I really was from friends and family. I had no trouble "passing" as straight.

There are many posters on this board who are still in the closet, or who call themselves "bi."

What I wonder is this: What is it like today to have gay desires, yet be unable to express them publicly? To have a wife/girlfriend/children who have no idea that you engage the services of sexy young men?

Do you come to terms with this existence? Does it eat you on the inside? Do you constantly worry that you will be discovered? Do you feel guilty knowing that your "woman" has no idea where else you stick that dick?

Your life could have been mine, since I came close to getting married. Obviously, I am happy with the choice that I made to be openly gay? Are you happy with your choice(s)?

[mmk]

Lucky, I do find this to be one of the more interesting posts in quite a while. I am not a closeted gay man however. I have been out for about 12 years with my family and friends and I have never had any regrets. Many of your questions I have often wondered the answers to myself.

 

One question that I have always wondered was if you do have those desires then why do you keep them hidden? This is a much different day an age then it was in the 50's 60's and even the 70's? Do some people who are still in the closet, living a "straight life" with a woman stay like that because they feel that they have to live their life to make others content? I guess my question would be why live like that. What kind of a life can a person have if they are living their life to make someone else happy and not themselves. I can understand if this was the 50's or the 60's when times were different. I have always felt very fortunate to live in the time that I do to where it is easier to live the way you are born then it would have been decades ago.

 

I guess the one situation I really question is when I see a guy with his wife/girlfriend and I get cruised or receive a flirting glance or comment, how do you feel when you do this. A part of me does find it flattering when it happens but there is a part of me that finds it to be hypocritical as well.(And I always wonder how come women never notice when the guy they are with is checking out another guy or even flirting with them - are the really that dense?)

[Guest Thunderbuns]

Lucky - this is a subject that could be debated for years without ever reaching a concensus. I have never been in the closet so don't know what it must feel like. However, perhaps I can give you my perspective as I see it.

 

I truly believe that honesty is the best policy - in everything - which would by definition include the declaration of one's sexual orientation. I do not believe that I have to wander around town with that famous wet T shirt that says, "Nobody Knows I'm Gay". One's sexual orientation should not be anyone else's concern. I say "should not be" - however in today's society, with the media having instilled in everyone's mind that "The public has a right to know" it can be difficult to escape those same inquiring minds.

 

My personal policy is as follows....... I don't go around announcing it, but if anyone asks me if I am Gay, my reply always is "Yes, I am. Why do you want to know?" This usually ends the discussion right there (after they give a rather embarrased excuse as to why they asked).

 

When I come into contact with a closeted gay - especially one who is married - I usually feel sorry for him. I realize that there are those who can lead a life with dual rolls and feel comfortable doing so, but I would bet they are in the minority. It is very sad to see a guy who forces himself to deny his true feelings out of fear of rejection by family or friends and has to be furtive about his sexual contacts with other men {or even social contacts for that matter}. We only pass through here once, and I would hate to be lying on my death bed saying - "I wish I had done...........

 

We should never let our parents push us into a straight marriage just because they want grandchildren or the outward appearance that all is "normal" in their beloved family. Not only are you hurting yourself but you are being very unfair to the woman you marry.

 

I really don't buy the excuse that gays in straight marriages didn't have any clue as to their sexual preferance beforehand. They probably were like an ostrich with their head in the sand. If I could give them just one piece of advice I would say, "To Thy Ownself, Be True". I don't believe in lying - period! However if you feel you MUST lie to save your butt - NEVER NEVER LIE TO YOURSELF!

 

The world is a different place today than it was back in the 50s & 60s. General speaking, intelligent educated people don't really give a damn what you do in bed so long as it doesn't include animals or children. This is especially true in larger metropolitan areas. I guess small towns can pose a problem, especially if they are in a particularly "red neck" area. And I know some unenlightened employers also pose a threat alternative lifestyles.

 

But by and large the Anita Bryants of the world are fast disapearing and if we can just rid ourselves of Dr. Laura, plus the Phelps's and the idiot fire & brimstone preachers things will have improved even more.

 

I don't know if all this makes much sense to you - but for what it's worth, it's my take on the subject

[Will]

Thanks, Lucky, for introducing a really interesting topic. And I think it's one that many guys here will enjoy thinking about.

 

I was in my mid-thirties when I came out, but that was a while ago. I was "late" in doing it, but many of my friends had not yet made the trip at the time. (This was in the 1970s.) In a way, I'm fortunate that I live in a place where a routine, active sex life for a gay man is next to impossible unless he wants to drive an hour each way to hang out in a bath house, something that never appealed to me. I say that I was fortunate because if I had lived in a major metropolitan area and been "inspired" by my newly-claimed sexual freedom, there's no doubt in my mind that I'd be dead by now.

 

Twenty-five years later, things have changed dramatically. But not everywhere. There are many, many communities in the United States in which it would be exceedingly difficult to come out. Homophobia, sadly, is alive and well. And even where it isn't dangerous, virulent, and violent, most of us would have a hard time dealing with the contempt, rejection, and anger of family and friends.

 

I also know that many college-age men, even sophisticated college-age men whose families live in Manhattan, even in the most supportive environment imaginable, even they can go through real agonies in coming out.

 

For some it's easy. For others it's very difficult. Sadly, for some others, it still seems impossible.

 

But I worry far less about gay men who find it impossible to come out than I do about those who don't even want to try.

[+ Lucky]

Thanks for the thanks, guys. We still haven't heard from anybody who is still in the closet, and I am interested in their point of view.

To be more specific, I came out in January, 1975. And, yes, I have had HIV since about 1980.

Do I regret the fun I had? Not for a minute. Being gay has been one of the great gifts of my life. My post is really an inquiry on how others live who made different choices than I did.

So keep cumming....

[Guest LG320126]

Lucky,

 

On page 11 of the Archives, Topic #1618, 10/15/01, "need2Btopped" addressed this question and at the coaxing of "deej" I replied in detail in Response #19. The circumstances related there are still true and I daily wrestle with the question of what to do about it. If you are interested, you will find my response to your question there.

 

LG

[Donnie]

>On page 11 of the Archives, Topic #1618, 10/15/01,

>"need2Btopped" addressed this question and at the coaxing of

>"deej" I replied in detail in Response #19.

 

How commendable to keep track of your posts like this. I nominate you for m4m secretary.

[Guest LG320126]

>>On page 11 of the Archives, Topic #1618, 10/15/01,

>>"need2Btopped" addressed this question and at the coaxing of

>>"deej" I replied in detail in Response #19.

>

>How commendable to keep track of your posts like this. I

>nominate you for m4m secretary.

 

 

curtsy, curtsy

[Guest RockvilleGuy]

Is it possible that a person can actually be "Bi" and enjoy the lifestyle or lifestyles of both "scenes"?

If not, then I'm just a lonely boy...lonely and true.....

[Guest Lorenzo]

This is a very interesting topic to me because I just came out to one of my very best friends last week. I just couldn't hide who I was anymore or pretend I was just like him(straight and girl crazy; not that there's anything wrong with that!). Hopefully it'll be easier now to be more open with others. I have a lot of religious baggage and quite a few of the people I know are ultra strict Catholics who frown on anything sexual except to make babies. I think I'm just going to have to move to another place and start my whole life over, it's really the only answer for me at this point.

[duke37]

Lorenzo--Congratulations! As someone who has just come out as well let me be the first to welcome you to the world of being out. At least a little. So how did your friend take it?

 

I don't think/hope you have to move to another city. In this day and age its not quite the shock it might have been a few years ago.

 

So what finally pushed you out of the closet? And as one really smart gay man told me "We are the ones holding the closet door." Jeff

 

"Love is the only thing that makes things one without destroying them." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

[HooBoy]

Lorenzo wrote: "I just came out to one of my very best friends last week. I just couldn't hide who I was anymore or pretend I was just like him"

 

How did you come out to him? How did you broach the subject and what was his reaction? Enquiring minds want to know!

[Guest BenDover]

No matter how many positive images on TV or in the news, no matter how much information is out there, no matter how many laws and restrictive social norms are set aside, coming out can still be a frightening, lonely and almost always frequently painful experience. I hope it is easier these days, but it must still be tough.

I'm so proud of you guys who have made the step through the threshold of the closet door. You have everything to gain, even though it seems as though there is everything to lose. Since coming out, I have authentic relationships with my family and loved ones. I expend no more energy on the Pronoun Game, no more ad-libbing my way through conversations.

I know this isn't a thread about how to come out, but I do have this bit of advice. Surround yourself with people who you know love you. Don't waste time with those who don't. Coming out will certainly make that clear.

[Guest Lorenzo]

Thanks for the encouragement, guys! Believe me, I need it.

 

Anyway, I was at a center city Philly bar with my friend Dave and we just were shooting the shit and after a Cosmopolitan and a few Stella Artois I decided to tell him. I was debating telling him for a while but the liquid courage certainly helped. He was very cool about it; he didn't seem to be upset or bothered. He asked me a few questions (one was am I attracted to him, and I could honestly say "No"). I've talked to him a few times this week and he acted the same as always, no bs or anything. So I think it went over very well. Now I have to figure out how to tell my family. I did tell my sister a while ago(she and I are soulmates so I can tell her anything) and though she took it ok I don't know how my parents or other family would react. They all think of me as some kind of choir boy(which I was in a choir for years!) and might not be too thrilled. I guess I should say "who gives a shit" but it's hard to do that, at least for me. But I think telling a friend who never knew(he said he never would have guessed)and is, in fact, tied to all of the church folks I know was a step I needed to take.

Anyway, thanks again and maybe I'll pour out more of my heart(or liver, depending on your point of view!) later.

[+ Lucky]

I started by telling a friend, then a brother, and then the family. It wasn't easy, but they adjust to it according to their love for you. I can still feel that worry about being rejected, though.

[Will]

You don't have to do it all at once. And you don't have to go in any particular order. This is about you. It is not about other people, no matter how much you love them or they love you. Take your time. You've already said it once, and the world didn't stop turning. Let that sink in. The next time you want to say it, it will be easier. And easier still the third time. You might not get around to your parents for a while. That's all right. You have all the time in the world.

 

Give yourself a pat on the back and a great big wet smack in the mirror before you go to bed tonight!

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>You don't have to do it all at once. And you don't have to

>go in any particular order. This is about you. It is not

>about other people, no matter how much you love them or they

>love you. Take your time. You've already said it once, and

>the world didn't stop turning. Let that sink in. The next

>time you want to say it, it will be easier. And easier

>still the third time. You might not get around to your

>parents for a while. That's all right. You have all the

>time in the world.

>

>Give yourself a pat on the back and a great big wet smack in

>the mirror before you go to bed tonight!

 

Will: You have a very nice way pf putting things.

[phage]

I once heard that as far as parents are concerned…it is best to wait until they ask. That way they choose a time when they are ready to hear the answer. Although my parents asked me years before I ever heard this (it’s hard to hide a high school romance) it worked out very well and seems like a fairly wise suggestions.

 

What do you guys think?

[ted]

I'm still in the closet.

I live in a fairly small town and work for a pretty small company(250 employees) and think that it would be a problem to announce "I'm gay." My state does not recognize sexual orientation as a basis for discrimination. Deep down, I suspect that they know, but we're sort of in our own version of Don't ask, Don't tell.

I've never married or had children, so there really isn't anyone intimately involved in my life. This is both a blessing, but also a problem, and the major reason why I even think about this.

I've known I was gay before I knew what gay was. I knew I wasn't interested in girls when all my friends were, but in a very small town back then, I didn't have a clue there was anyone else like me. Cliched but true.

I've lived alone for a long time and would really like to share some things with a partner, but I'm not going to meet someone to do so in the closet. This is one of the reasons I started hiring escorts, although I've known for some time now, a really lousy one.

As far as the extended family, one sibling is a devout R.Catholic(why are converts even more so than those born there) and not a good prospect for coming out, and the other is extremely judgemental and rigid; neither particularly inviting confession of this sort. Both are more than a 100 miles away, so not a factor in my daily life.

At this point I've become more open about what being gay, without "announcing" it and I will continue to open the door. Nobody has asked, and I'm not sure what I would say, but the "Yes, why do you ask?" response noted somewhere here I believe, is sounding better all the time.

[Guest Lorenzo]

Will,

You know how to make a guy feel good. You're a real sweetheart! Thanks!

 

 

>>You don't have to do it all at once. And you don't have to go in any particular order. This is about you. It is not about other people, no matter how much you love them or they love you. Take your time. You've already said it once, and the world didn't stop turning. Let that sink in. The next time you want to say it, it will be easier. And easier still the third time. You might not get around to your parents for a while. That's all right. You have all the time in the world.

Give yourself a pat on the back and a great big wet smack in the mirror before you go to bed tonight!

[Guest Lorenzo]

Whoops, my last post was posted over what I was trying to reply to. Sorry!

[HooBoy]

Phage said, >>>I once heard that as far as parents are concerned…it is best to wait until they ask. That way they choose a time when they are ready to hear the answer...What do you guys think?<<<

 

Had I waited until my parents asked, they still would not know. I chose to spring it on them when my Dad was dying of cancer and the whole family was together expressing their love for my Dad and each other.

 

No one was surprised when I blurted it out - even my Mom said she always knew; they all told me they loved me anyway and the subject has never been broached again. Although when I would bring an occassional bf over to my Mom's she would often remark in a condescending tone, "he's pretty enough to be a girl." :-)

[Bastian]

Congratulations Lorenzo on taking such a big step in becoming who you're meant to be. If you'd like a friendly ear to bend over some liquid courage, I'd be happy to provide one.:-) That is, if you don't mind pouring out your liver to a gay, man-crazy guy...good luck in your discoveries and new freedom.

[Bilbo]

Seems to me that loving parents always basically know already. That doesn't mean that they are all ready to come out of the shoot totally accepting and supportive. Hardly. "None so blind as those that will not see." But, usually, given time, or time and discussion, whichever they need, not always what we need, they will come around.

My whole family (Not my father - he was always a fairly frail person and had so many medical problems that I waited til after he had died to come out.) tried to warn me about my third husband. Wish I had listened, in some ways. Always will remember the time I had introduced my Mother to a young man I was having an affair with, whom I had no intention of marrying. She said that she could see the attraction, but that he could hardly be mental companionship, and I told her that I didn't keep him around for conversation. She smiled sagely and nodded.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

WARNING: This is a long thread not intended for those with tolerances only for short reads. And if a paragraph or two wander a little off point that is the price for the whole. So for those put off by this type of post, please skip it and move on. :-)

 

Lucky posed the question:

 

>There are many posters on this board who are still in the

>closet, or who call themselves "bi."

>What I wonder is this: What is it like today to have gay

>desires, yet be unable to express them publicly? To have a

>wife/girlfriend/children who have no idea...

>Do you come to terms with this existence? Does it eat you on

>the inside? Do you constantly worry that you will be

>discovered?

 

And BenDover reflects:

 

>No matter how many positive images on TV or in the news, no

>matter how much information is out there, no matter how many

>laws and restrictive social norms are set aside, coming out

>can still be a frightening, lonely and almost always

>frequently painful experience. I hope it is easier these

>days, but it must still be tough.

 

While I am out now, it has only been year. And while it was not an easy thing to do it was much easier than living with the self-imposed burden for most of my life.

 

A little over a year ago I had occasion to reflect on my journey in a thread on another website. I reproduce it below for those few that may find some similarity with their circumstance. (I respond to questions posed by others denoted in brackets. ) After I wrote that piece I decided to come out to my family Christmas dinner a year ago. In my case it went very well, but the time had come for me to do it no matter how it turned out. I have moved on from where I was a year ago but I'm still pretty much that guy.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

More on xxxxx's deceptively simple question...

 

<Given that many of us are secretive about our sexuality, how do some of you guys

counter what, to me, can be an overwhelming sense of loneliness - of being there,

but not really being a part of things going on around you?>

 

Counter loneliness?, there is no countering, there is enduring and adapting to

it, but for me this may be easier than for most, because it has been a way of

life since I started school at age 5. I was very shy as a child and quite a bit

younger than my classmates due to the peculiarities of the state law regarding

birth dates for starting school attendance and my birthday. Socially I was less

mature than the others and it showed in my interaction or more precisely lack of

interaction. I eventually grew to accommodate the personality trait but never

really grew out of it. Today, I'm still slow to warm up to unfamiliar people and

only take them in small doses, one or two at a time, maybe a few more. I have no

tolerance for large groups of strangers, or even acquaintances. I never really

enjoyed the art of superficial social interaction and don't care to, even today --

with one exception, public flirtations or good natured teasing. It must be

public to avoid misunderstandings and complications... and of course I wouldn't

undertake this with a complete stranger anyway, because I need to anticipate

their comfort level with this sort of play.

 

<of being there, but not really being a part of things going on around you?>

 

This is an uncanny accurate description of my feeling in large groups... Again, a

way of life all through public school until college, when I began to exercise

more control over my day to day life and I could pick and choose the environment

within which I placed myself. Of course the anonymity of the internet provides

a variation on our basic personality just as the armor in our auto gives us when

we venture out on the roads...

 

And I haven't even brought up the subject of sexuality yet...

 

As a young man I learned that I was supposed to be interested in girls and I was,

depending on the girl-- but I always found it difficult to interact with them on

any level but as friends, not that I didn't want to. I also discovered that I

developed very strong emotional attachments to boys -- only to a few but the

attachments were deep. And of course we interacted intimately in a nonsexual way

as best friends do. The sexual dimension didn't rear its head until my senior

year in high school but I ignored it (it was tough and I almost couldn't manage

it). I didn't think my friend could accept it -- I still think today that it was

the correct assessment. A similar situation happened while an undergraduate,

again avoided -- I suspect he wanted it too but I don't think he would have been

comfortable with it and I'm not sure I would have been either. Today we are still

good friends, one of my closest though we don't see each other often -- both of

us married and divorced, both with children.

 

Then there is the 23 years of marriage, all of the time taking furtive glances at

good looking guys in the supermarket, pumping gas, or just walking on the street

while trying to avoid being discovered by my wife or kids. How did I deal with it?

I just did -- there was no easy way to get past it or over it and I wasn't prepared

to give up my children or be unfaithful. Someone to talk to -- I think not!! One endures.

 

Then after 23 years my wife asks for a divorce (I had seriously considered for a

few years asking for one myself but always found a reason not to). There was

emotional trauma and very mixed feelings but it didn't take too long to get past

any hurt or negative feelings.

 

Nevertheless, I felt that life was pretty much over at that point. I was happy

the marriage was over, and I didn't want another marriage. I felt I was pretty

much past my prime, in fact, gone to seed wouldn't be an overstatement. I

certainly had no desire to engage in another relationship and thought no one, who

was not more needy than I, would be interested in me. So I looked forward to just

playing my hand out and looking forward to grandchildren which seemed doubtful

(and still do).

 

Then I discovered an interesting world on the internet. Although I had been on

the internet for several years I hadn't investigated the 'gay' side at all --

wouldn't have known where to begin. Then I came across some escort sites which

really piqued my interest -- maybe what I couldn't attract on my own

could be purchased! I never would have had the balls to do it before but with my

newfound independence and the feeling that time is running out on you and also an

undertaking of a personal renovation program (I was very overweight and

recovering from a double knee injury which happened the previous winter) I

decided it was now or never -- and never was forever.

 

Well, 75 pounds later and a dozen men or so I have come to the realization that,

while the occasional female will still turn my head, men make it spin like a top.

And while I may not be a young man anymore, I'm not that old and I'm far from

dead, in fact more alive that I've been in 25 years. But I've substituted one set

of problems for another. I've only recently dropped the fiction that I am Bi and

accept that I am gay and that it was probably responsible for the failure of my

marriage. Not only have I admitted it to another but more surprsingly I have

admitted it to myself (the hard part). I really accepted this fact openly while in the company

of another man, a pretty exceptional man in some ways, for an extended overnight

experience. This in contrast to previous trysts with others (one or two also

exceptional) of at most a couple of hours, which might be likened to the backseat

of a car at the the drive-in when I was a kid. Well, not exactly, but you get an

idea of the contrast I'm trying to evoke. The extended engagement really brought

into focus just how right for me that this kind of relationship seemed. The

first time I kissed another man I felt so comfortable that it seemed I had done

it many times before -- it just seemed so right. Then when I became more

physically involved it seemed the same although the emphasis was on the physical

with whatever passion and tenderness that limited time and my partner would

allow. But the overnite offered a new dimension to the experience -- to spend

time, intimate in some ways, with another over dinner, theatre and just

walking, just talking. The experience became overwhelming with respect the

realization of what I was learning about myself -- so this is what it is really

about...

 

I am bursting at the seems to 'come out' for the shear freedom to say and do what

I feel like -- I have come close to letting it slip out but so far I've managed

to pull back at the last minute. And i'm sure once they do know they will reflect

on the several tell-tale signs I put out there as subtly as I could. How do you

tell your kids, mother, and x-wife, not to mention a brother and his family. It

will be as difficult an adjustment for them as it has been for me to grapple

with. But the time is not ripe, my employer would not be very understanding I am

sure. Only two more years to reach a milestone that permits me to carry away the

last important benefit I haven't already sewed up!! So, I wait...

 

<What I really miss is what yyyyyy mentions in his comments .. "the availability

of someone you can trust with your ideas, dreams, and daily thoughts".. I have no

one I can speak face to face with about these things - or my conflicts, my

emotions, my guts! >

 

Ditto in spades!!! The overnight certainly brought that need into sharpe focus

for me. But I too do not seek another committed relationship at this time, the

last one lasted 23 years and was more than enough for now. I have missed a lot

in the last 25 years that I need to make up for as best one can after the horse

is out of the barn. It's easy to postulate an ideal open relationship but these

are almost never realized. It requires two secure individuals to begin with and

that is just for starters. Then the potential temptations for another committment

to overcome... No, no committed relationship for now -- I'm smart enough to never

say never but certainly not now. Of course, that could all change when I see a

guy with that certain glint in his eye -- never say never. We are such a fickle

species.

 

Just a few idle thoughts on xxxxx's simple question and other contributed

thoughts from yyyyyy and zzzzzzz. These issues have been just under the surface of

late and maybe boiliing over the top a little too.