Another Cinderella Story

[trilingual]

Even for the occasional traveler, it's possible! In fact, it's what turned so many of us into Brazil Nuts on our very first visit! On the whole, Brazilians are the most open, warm, kind, sweet and generous people on earth. They're not closed and reserved, the way North Americans and Northern Europeans are. The moment you make contact with Brazilians you will experience this for yourself. The sauna boys and other escorts are no different than any other Brazilians in this respect. Even with limited (or no) knowledge of the language, it's possible to establish communication and get to know one another. Tomcal is living proof of that. Without speaking a word of Portuguese when he first visited Brazil he just plunged into the pool (so to speak) and began making friends of the boys. He wasn't just a customer to them. There are other M4Mers who've been able to do that, and the guys just pine away for them when they're gone (it's that mostly untranslatable emotion of "saudade") and constantly ask other visiting gringos if they know when Tomcal or certain other gringos will be coming back!

 

Unless you've traveled or lived in the "third-world" before, you cannot imagine the extent of poverty, or the yawning chasm that exists between the poor and even the middle class in a country like Brazil (let alone the Grand Canyon between the poor and the rich). Most of the sauna boys, like most other Brazilians, are honorable and honest people. But most lead very difficult lives. In many cases, the guys have gone into this business because of desperate needs at home. There is very little social safety net to speak of in Brazil (our right-wing readers should visit Brazil to see what the U.S. will become if Bush has his way) so the only hope if everybody in your family is out of work, or there's a medical emergency, is to take the responsibility yourself. Most of the guys you meet (especially the ones from out-of-town) are supporting an extended family back home. They aren't living in luxury apartments; they share spartan apartments in cheap neighborhoods with a half-dozen other guys in order to save money. Even the guys from Rio (at least most of them) live with their families in poor neighborhoods and are helping out to support them.

 

By Brazilian standards, even middle-class foreigners are filthy rich. As many readers know, I'm now retired. On my federal pension I make about $3800 a month (gross). That's nearly R$11,000 per month. In Rio, a shop clerk in a store in Copacabana may start at R$400 a month! A decent middle-class salary in Brazil is between R$2000 - 4000 per month. So even though my income in the U.S. puts me right in the middle of the middle class, in Brazil I'm rich. Many of you reading this are much better off than I am, so in Brazil that puts you among the top 1% super-rich. That's the temptation we're putting in the way of some of the guys when we're not careful. Their lives, by and large, are of privation unimaginable to most of us who live in the developed world. Our lives, by contrast, are of unimaginable ease and luxury to people from the less-developed nations. No matter how good a person is, it's possible for him to be resentful of your enormous wealth and tempted by your belongings, particularly if his family situation is desperate. That's why you'll do best by acting and behaving discreetly, not flashing money (or talking about it), keeping your expensive possessions put away when you have guys to your room, treating the guys respectfully. and generally using common sense and courtesy. If you do that, you should have no problems at all with your new Brazilian acquaintances.

 

In one way, North Americans have an advantage in dealing with the sauna guys: by and large we aren't class conscious. We tend to treat everyone as equals, regardless of their economic status. That's very different in Brazil, where there is a lot of class consciousness, and the wealthy often treat the poor like servants. Believe me, the guys appreciate our friendship and companionship, and the fact that we DON'T treat them like underlings, in spite of the differences in education and wealth. It means a lot to them. But keep in mind that they're still Brazilians. Because of the lack of a social safety net, people (of any class) must rely on their families and close friends when there are problems, or they need a job, etc. You need to understand that if you accept friendship with a Brazilian, you're also accepting some responsibility for your friend, and that's one of the reasons the guys won't be shy about asking you for help, or to bring them some Nikes on your next trip, etc. After all, you've sought them out as a friend, and in Brazil (as in other Latin countries) friends help friends and do favors for them. This also means that your new friends understand that this is a mutual obligation. They may not have any money, but they will reciprocate in other ways within their means, like being your guide, or helping you avoid being overcharged at a restaurant, or walking you back to your hotel at night to be sure you're safe. They'll give you the shirt off their back if you really need it. Loyalty is a huge value in Latin culture (along with dignity and honor) and if you understand that, you'll not only make friends, you'll keep them for a lifetime!

 

This got longer than I intended, but this has been a really interesting thread!

[marc anthony]

>

>This got longer than I intended, but this has been a really

>interesting thread!

 

 

And this was a VERY interesting post. Thanks very much.

[marko]

Believe me, Brazil is the right destination. And, as is always the case, Trilingual's postings are exactly right on.

I have been amazed over and over again at how far simple courtesy and respect go in Latin cultures. For young men who sell sexual services, being treated with genuine respect and honest affection is not something they are used to, especially from their local clients, who treat them, not disrespectfully, but pretty casually, I think. The locals also, of course, have considerations to take into account that foreign toursts do not. The young men are in it for the money and their lives, as Tri says, are often very hard. Therefore, respect for them means a lot to them.

[buckguy]

A few random comments in response to the previous posts. The economic chasm is greater in Brazil (and many other sex travel destinations like DR, Thailand, etc.) and people who are jetlagged, out of their element, and thinking with their cocks are easy prey for those who are predatory (you can say the same thing about Thailand, where plenty of bar boys are ripoff artists of one sort or another). The gulf between North American visitors and theguys is much greater than between us and the usual run of escorts here, so it is a different context. Before I travelled to Brazil, people who usually aren't obsessed with security told me of their adventures and those of acqauintances, which leads me to believe that random crime is more common there, although most people you will encounter are very open and honest.

 

Most North American travelers I know are pretty clueless about other cultures and don't do much homework about the places they visit. I become a crank when I post on the Asia threads because it's obvious that most of the guys are really clueless about Thailand, Buddhism, etc. The Thai are very hospitable (like the Brazilians) but it's a much more closed sosciety and they are very good at providing whatever "surface" they think people want. A place with a superficially "European" culture like Brazil probably lulls some people into a false sense of security or knowing. Some people feel that money insulates them from problems or allows them to pay those problems away---despite Brazil's corruption, Rio should disabuse visitors of these kinds of delusions.

 

The barebacking analogy might fit to the extent that you are dealing with rare, but serious events and most of us are really unable to guage the actual risk of low probability events (the Nobel in Economics went to the guy who figured that out a couple years ago). In either case, preacutions are probably the smartest course even if the "objective" risk is low. Although, I probably am a bit more cautious in Rio than in Boston, DC, LA, etc., the nature of the pecautions I take (locking up the wallet) aren't that much different. Maybe I'm an outlier. It strikes me that a place like Corijuna (?sp) would probably have dubious characters in it if it was in the US. Nonetheless, it's an interesting place to hangout and okay if you know what's going on.

[asdsrfr]

As other posters have pointed out, Brazil seems a slightly more "dangerous" destination than Thailand. I wonder what the difference is.

 

In both places you have a wide economic gap, ineffectual police, and foreigners who drink too much--let their guard down and so on. Yet other than a few rare episodes of petty theft you rarely hear about foreigners being victims of crime in Thailand. In fact, very few of the gay Thailand websites make much of a big deal about crime in the way that this board emphasizes the caution in travelling to Brazil.

 

One interesting aside. I have had alot of fun in both places without any trouble. In Thailand, when you meet guys, they tend to immediately try to set up the fantasy of "instant boyfriend"--ie they love you, and only you. In Brazil, many of the guys talked quite openly about the many "clients" that they have from all over the world, something a Thai guy would rarely do. Just another observation about a cultural difference.

[+ Lucky]

"I don't leave 10K out on the table for people to see,"

 

Well, then, where do you put it?

 

As far as safety goes, there is no way that this discussion can settle the issue as no one is ever completely safe. I had a guy whom I had been seeing for years steal from me. Even in the safest city you may hit the jackpot and come up with the one thief in town. So we generally place our bets and spin the wheels. Some will choose Rio, some will not.

[trilingual]

Although I've never visited Thailand, I imagine that in many ways it's a more difficult destination for a Western traveler than Brazil is. Certainly most non-Brazilians are deeply ignorant of Brazil's culture, history and even its language. But Brazil is fundamentally a Western culture, rooted in European history, predominantly Catholic, and speaking a Romance language that includes an enormous number of cognate words with English/French/Spanish/etc. Most Brazilians (to one extent or another) are descended from Europeans, and there was massive European immigration dating from the beginning of Brazilian history in 1500. There are many cultural differences, to be sure, with North American or Northern European societies, but even when something in Brazil seems strange, it's familiar. We recognize the architecture, the food, the music, the gestures, etc. Brazil is full of cultural clues Westerner visitors will recognize instantly, even if they don't speak Portuguese. (For example, one would have to be a remarkably dense Western visitor not to recognize and be able to figure out the meaning of common signs like "supermercado," "banco," "aeroporto," "centro," "teatro," "cinema," "telefone," "museu," "restaurante," "onibus," etc.)

 

Thailand, by contrast, is fundamentally different from our culture, in its language (which uses a writing system a casual visitor is unlikely to understand), its religious underpinnings, its history, you name it! When something seems strange to a Westerner in a country like Thailand, it's much less likely to have an undercurrent of familiarity. That, of course, is part of its fascination, because it's such a powerful contrast to Western culture. But it also means that it's harder for a Westerner to really understand the people because we don't share as many common traits with them as we do with Brazilians. For example, if a Westerner visits an historic church in Brazil, he's likely to recognize the architecture, the art, and the symbolism. Unless such a visitor is very well-versed in Buddhism, what he sees in a Thai temple may be beautiful indeed, but otherwise meaningless because the average Westerner has never been exposed to the theology and symbolism that make the temple meaningful to a Thai (or to other Buddhists). This also affects attitudes and the way people behave, because many basic assumptions that are common througout Western societies are different or non-existent in non-Western cultures. I don't mean to imply that Westerners are incapable of learning enough about Buddhism, Thai history and the Thai language to achieve a deeper understanding of the culture. But it's certainly harder than coming to understand Brazilian culture.

 

In short, although Brazil can sometimes seem like a different planet, it's not. You will feel like a foreigner there, but not like a visiting alien. Most visitors, in fact, feel deeply comfortable in Brazil. There's no need for apprehension about visiting Brazil. As we've said before, just using common sense and common courtesy any visitor will have a wonderful experience there! So take the plunge!

[Guest dreynsol]

As a diehard "Brazil Nut", I appreciate Brazil as "paradise on earth", although I realize it is not "paradise in heaven" as Trilingual stated.

 

When visiting Brazil you MUST realize you are visiting a third world country.

 

The pleasures are bountiful, but so are the risks at times.

 

If you really want to learn the realities that Brazilians face and their culture, I would suggest an excellent English web site: http://www.brazzil.com It has educated me as to the realities of Brazilian life, as opposed to the fantasies that we live in the saunas of Copacabana. Not to say that the fantasies are bad! :-)

 

As for me, the rewards outweight the risks, but that is an individual choice -- one that you should make after being educated by this site and others.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that Brazil is one of the most economically unequal on the planet, with a tiny percentage of the population living a lifestyle similar to that in North America or Europe while the vast majority struggles to survive.

 

Even though I believe the majority of Brazilians are honest and are quite content with their lifestyle, there is a population that is very desparate. It is the reality of Brazil.

 

As a Gringo that plans on taking up part time residency there and traveling throughout the country, I needed to know the worst that could happen while living there and what to plan for.

 

Here's an article that describes some of the realities:

http://www.brazzil.com/2004/html/articles/feb04/p130feb04.htm

 

- Drey

[ohgwm226]

Let me second every thing Tri said. I agree completely with his assessment and advice. But as a person who travelled frquently to both, Thailand, and Brazil, and fell in love with both, I would like to add the following points: English is much more widely spoken and understood in Thailand, so though Thai is completely incomprehnsible to Americans, most often you can communicate, to some extent, with Thai men, even money-boys in English. Though "Boa Noite Cinderella"-like events are not limited to Brazil, (My Latino, and American friends tell me they are common across Latin America including Mexico, Bolivia..etc), they seem to be almost unheard of in Tahiland. Certainly Thailand is not crime-free country either.

I agree with Tri, we should not judge the whole Brazilan population by the acts of very special few (Street-Hustlers), who are by defintion more prone to act criminally.

It is always important to remeber that both Thailand, and Brazil are 3rd world countires with huge probelms including poverty, unemployment, and social injustice. Both can be perceived by us as paradise, but on earth, and not in Heavens. Having good common sense is essential, and if you follow the advice given here, you are very unlikely to get into trouble. Just do not let your guard down. It happened to me once. After meeting a guy and having a nice uneventful eveing in my hotel room. I met him 2 days later again in a bar, fooled by the safe first encounter, I accepted a Coca Cola, and ended waking up roughly 28 hours later without my wallet or credit cards. What happened to me was completely avoidable, if I had just said: "No, thanks" to the drink. Never let your guard down, and you'll be safe. I still travel to Brazil, and have no negative view of Brazilian people as whole as result of my one bad experience.

 

OHGWM226

[buckguy]

In terms of "Cinderella" stories in Thailand, it's more a matter of taking someone "off" (as they put it) and not getting anything in the way of "service". Some of the guys are quite proud of doing this, BTW. I've also heard of drugged drinks (more common with heterosexual tourists; enough that the State dept had a warning about this earlier in the year) and various kinds of theft. It's a less overtly confrontational culture and the crime and exploitation by the boys is more passive aggressive than in Brazil. Still, you don't want to sell the Thai short. A friend of mine in Thailand had previously worked for the Navy. His duties included checking the bars and (bargirls) before R&Rs (which often happened in conjunction with joint maneuvers with the Thai Navy & marines). He also had to deal with the aftermath of R&Rs and often found dead Marines and sialors who had probably had too much to drink and under-estimated the skinny guys who were a head shorter than them. The murder rate in thailand is not much different from the US, although it usually occurs in ways that aren't very public.

 

Although both Thai & Brazilian societies are deeply closeted and have some semi-Victorian sexual mores, there is definitely much more open discussion of sex in Brazil with "the boys", which makes it much easier to do business and eliminates many (but, sadly, not all) of the "service" problem that are fairly common in Thailand. The Brazilians also seem to have found more easy ways of being behaviorally bisexual than the Thai, at least in the commercial sex sector. The Thai really do seduce people with surface acquiesence and so forth. I have a low tolerance for bullshit, which may be why I came to really like Thailand and the Thai people (particularly the guys), but it came slowly and came from a knowledgeable joy of the culture and the place, rather than from the bullshit that other people fall for. Being able to speak the language and read (I've lost most of the latter) also makes a difference in terms of the respect you get from the Thai and the kind of relationships that are possible 9although deep relationships are difficult, even among the Thai, with anyone who isn't family, a lifelong friend, or among educated folks among classsmates). It also helps to know the usual games and anticipate them. Oddly, even guys who get screwed (metaphorically) by the Thai come back for more--this seems true of the gay guys and the heterosexuals.

[song32]

In response to Dreynsol's "reality in Brazil", I would suggest renting or buying the documentary called "Bus 174", a gripping and wrenching story told from all angles of a bus hijacking that occured in Rio back in 2000. I saw the movie right after my first trip to Rio and it was more enlightening than the movie "City of God".

[+ Axiom2001]

>"I don't leave 10K out on the table for people to see,"

>

>Well, then, where do you put it?

>

>As far as safety goes, there is no way that this discussion

>can settle the issue as no one is ever completely safe. I had

>a guy whom I had been seeing for years steal from me. Even in

>the safest city you may hit the jackpot and come up with the

>one thief in town. So we generally place our bets and spin the

>wheels. Some will choose Rio, some will not.

 

 

 

I am in complete agreement with your opinion; I've been at this site going on four years, and during that time there has been a lot of sound advice given regarding one's safety while traveling in Brasil and the protocol one should use when engaging the services of sauna boys or independent escorts in Rio.

 

As I read through all of these responses, even responding at one point, I now ask the question where can this thread go from here? What more can one relate about the scorts and sauna boys that hasn't already been presented by someone at this forum?

 

I hope that everyone has learned from reading about the ordeals endured by some of our fellow M4Mers and non ones too. and that the lessons have been learned from the inadvertent mistakes of others.

 

Gents, let us all move on! (I don't write this to censor anyone!)

[Driver]

Well perhaps its time to thin it out and transfer the detail to the FAQ which can then be tidied. That would leave the main body for trip reports. The boys will change more quickly than restaurant or hotel news.

 

Some temporary threads where old messages get deleted automatically might be nice for details of who is going when etc.

[Guest Jake]

As a regular visitor for a number of years and now a half-time resident of Copacabana, I have had close encounters of several varieties including an attempted mugging at knifepoint in the evening on a very bright, well-traveled street (Avenida Atlantica), and what I'm certain was an attempted Cinderella by (hard-shelled) gum that initiated at Corujinha's, similar to Jackhammer but a loner endorsed by a very knowledgeable local.

 

I have also been shaken down by a hustler trick in a NY hotel room, held up at gunpoint coming into my home on Gramercy Park in NY in the early evening when I lived there - marched to my floor-through door and tied up inside. Before that I was broken into on my upper east side apt twice. After moving back to LA, my home there was also broken into twice (about the time that LA recorded more than 1,000 murders in a year for the first time).

 

The point is that big city rules apply everywhere - and that only two of the abovementioned events had anything to do with a sexual encounter. And in both of those cases, I asked questions of people in the know locally. (But I suspect I would have had many more incidents - and consequences - if I did not operate prudently and if I still drank and drugged like I used to.) You takes your precautions, you pays your money and you takes your REASONABLE chances if you are smart.

 

Having experienced both sides of the equation - from long time lush/druggie to long term recovery - I can assure you that there is almost always a dramatic shift in values and honesty when in the grip and I have seen many soberly honorable people become total slimeballs. NEVER trust a using addict, much less an unkown street person.

 

And, while I'm on the subject, I often cringe here - in the saunas and at Corujinha's - witnessing (usually) Americans in full, drunken grandiosity making complete fools - and marks - of themselves. It diminishes them. It diminishes the usually-high regard that most Brasileros have of us. And it leaves them totally vulnerable to WHATEVER might happen next.

 

I'm here because I genuinely love the country and the people - and did before I ever discovered the sexual scene which has only been icing. By nature I find the great majority of Brasileros to be warm, open, honest and friendly people. 'Nuff said.

[+ Lucky]

"By nature I find the great majority of Brasileros to be warm, open, honest and friendly people"

 

Just like you, jake!

[bigguyinpasadena]

Tampa Yankee wrote"Thanks Tri, Buckguy and Tom for all your input. Most of what you advise has addressed dealing with the unknown guys: it is all sound advice and I practice that whether in Boston, Tampa, NY,DC, Vancouver, or Montreal."

I guess this is why I appriciate the clubs in Montreal.Many times I have gone into the clubs after shopping or dinner still with my Vuitton carryall and wearing some gold(as I am a bigguyy my gold is "of size"!)and never felt threatened.

[bigguyinpasadena]

>"By nature I find the great majority of Brasileros to be

>warm, open, honest and friendly people"

>

>Just like you, jake!

I will second that-hope we get to see you in LA soon!