Another Cinderella Story

[elpaso]

Just got a phone call from a good friend (a veteran Brazil Nut, though not a reader of this message board) returning from 10 days in Rio...

 

He brought a Gringo friend with him this trip (a first-timer to Rio), and two days before the trip was over, the friend was approached at Corujihna's by two garotos who said they were visiting from Sao Paulo.

 

Long story short, the two garotos and the Gringo ended up back at the Atlantico and the Gringo ended up drugged and robbed. The thieves tossed the room and discovered the key to the safe, and took all valuables except the Passport. Cell phone, credit cards, cash, camera, and everything else. They were not registered at the front desk, and were not captured on the lobby video camera.

 

I love Rio and find a reason to be there most every month. But despite Rio's many charms, a carefree Paradise it is not. Tourism to Brazil is on the rise -- and with it, opportunistic crime. This is a sad fact of life. Heed the wisdom of TomCal and others on this board about where and when and how to deal with cruising outside the saunas and you can have tremendous adventures. Ignore it -- even once -- at your peril.

 

--ElPaso

[asdsrfr]

Time and time again I have read that one should stick to the guys in the sauna's. Does this apply for encounters taking these guys out from the sauna's to your hotel or elsewhere?

 

Since the sauna guys are basically freelancers, why would they be any safer than anyone you met on the street--especially since that's where many of the sauna guys head after closing hours?

[Guest dreynsol]

>> stick to the guys in the sauna's <<

 

Yes, many of the sauna guys head to Corujinha's when the saunas are closing down.

 

You're right that the sauna guys are basically freelance, but they must adhere to the rules of the saunas that they work at. The saunas are 'institutions' that screen boys by checking their IDs and making sure that they don't disrupt their livelihood. By the many Reals$$ they bring in at the end of the night, they want to make sure that you are a satisfied customer. If word gets out that they've misbehaved, it can certainly mean that they're barred from one or more saunas and the end of their livelihood as well.

 

Not to say that they're all saints, but it is an extra level of scrutiny that tends to weed out the good from the bad. Above all, LOCK UP everything in your hotel safe that you wouldn't mind doing without. My friend had a $75 bottle of cologne missing after only having sauna boys over.

 

It's as simple as reporting to the police here in the US that someone robbed you on the street, versus someone robbing you that you knew where they worked -- big difference!

 

Not to say that everyone that hangs out at Corujina's is dangerous. But make sure that they are either sauna boys (their livelihood is at stake!) or are HIGHLY recommended by veteran M4Mers or locals that you trust. Repeat...Repeat...Repeat... :-)

 

- Drey

[trilingual]

Drey's right. The guys who work for the saunas or the agencies are known quantities, by and large. The management has their ID, knows their real names, and how to find them, etc. So it's hard to be anonymous and get away with stuff. The majority of the guys know that messing with clients is a surefire way to get blackballed, and there would go their livelihood. So there's rarely any serious trouble with the sauna guys or agency escorts. Even if they work after hours at Corujinha, if people know they work at a sauna they can be traced in the case of problems. The guys who just hang out at Corujinha (or other places downtown) that nobody knows anything about can be an invitation to BIG, BIG trouble! There's enough BIG, BIG fun available at the saunas and agencies. Why take the risk of traveling thousands of miles and having your trip ruined by your own carelessness?

With a modicum of caution and common sense, you'll have a wonderful time in Brazil without any problems!

[Big Daddy]

It is a constant source of amazement for me to see how many guys who read the information posted on this list simply think that the information is casual or simply highly recommended. READ THE FUCKING POSTS. If you do, you will have a great time.

 

I am starting to get really excited. One week from today, I will be in Paradise with meu bebito. He has been playing basketball for his collegio and his team is 22-3 and are playing in a regional championship this weekend. His plane gets to Rio before ours, and so he will be waiting for us in the lobby of the Atlantico. I am looking forward to seeing not only my Brazilian friends, but many of the gringos who will also be there.

 

Brazil, Eu te amo muito muito.

 

(PS Do not forget to vote for John Kerry and to get as many people as you know to also get out and vote.The future of our country is literally at stake.)

 

Big Daddy

[+ Axiom2001]

When I was at The Point 202 recently, my friend who accompanied me pointed out one sauna guy who had supposedly stolen from an M4Mer. This misdeed had been previously noted at this forum. The guy stood alone almost all of the evening; my friend introduced him to me; I smiled and shook his hand..

 

My friend continued to talk about the time that he had spent with this young man prior to his being "outed" for stealing; this night the young (cutie) seemed rather introverted and isolated. My friend continued to discuss this young sauna boy's dilemma, so my only response was that he had brought all of his troubles upon himself; I could NOT sympathize with the young man.

 

I write this to say: keep ALL valuables under lock and key to avoid any temptation or disruption in your life.

 

When I had my guide come to my room recently at the RIo Royal, all valuables were in the electronic safe.

[marc anthony]

OK... I have been reading these posts for a while now and sitting quietly minding my own business (since I have never been to Brazil), but now I really do have to ask a question of those who love the place.

 

Please don't take this in the wrong way... like I am criticizing your love for the place, as I really am not. I am just trying to get a handle on how different psyches deal with different things.

 

Every city has its crime, and every adult xxx entertainment industry has its bad apples. But what has troubled me a little about the occurrences in Brazil is that at least some of them happen with people who have an established relationship with the victim.

 

That bothers me a lot. Is the general advice from the board regulars that you cannot even develop enough trust in some of these boys that you have known for a while to bring them to your hotel? Or are these just isolated happenings and it is safe to develop more of a relationship with these guys than one night stands?

 

For me, that would be unacceptable if it were impossible to even consider fostering a trusting relationship. I am perfectly willing to be careful and wary in my dealings with new dancers/strippers/saunaboys/escorts/####. But once I have gotten to know them well and feel that we have some kind of relationship, I would at least like to believe most of them wouldn't drug me and steal my things.

 

Anyway... curious to hear people's perspective on this, as in the past I really had not much interest in going there, but since I am going to eventually marry my US born Brazilian boy, he is soon to start bugging me to go that continent for a "roots" check! lol

 

:7

[marc anthony]

I am

>perfectly willing to be careful and wary in my dealings with

>new dancers/strippers/saunaboys/escorts/####.

 

Interesting side note that the software didn't allow publication of the word I used that starts with "w" and rhymes with "bores". You would think that wouldn't be an outlawed word in a site that is dedicated to the topic! LOLOLOL

[Guest Tomcal_]

MC, you make a good point but,I may be wrong but I dont' think any of these situations have occured with guys the "victims" have known! Jackhammer's incident happened with a guy who was unknown to him prior to sitting at his table that evening. Same with ElPaso's friend. My friend Robbguy had his situation happen to him to a guy who I knew, but he had never been with before. Again to put in perspective, if you add the number of days/nights/sexual encounters that myself,Gulliver, SFTraveller, Etc. have had in Rio,you are talking less then a 1% incident rate! I think it is because of the low rate of these things happening that guys get careless, and forget where they are and who they are dealing with, usually young guys from poor backgrounds where the temptation to make a easy quick buck becomes too great to resist for some.

...and don't wait...Come On Down to Rio!!

[marc anthony]

>MC, you make a good point but,I may be wrong but I dont'

>think any of these situations have occured with guys the

>"victims" have known! Jackhammer's incident happened with a

>guy who was unknown to him prior to sitting at his table that

>evening.

 

Thanks for pointing that out. For some reason I thought Jack knew the person. Also, Hooboy had the bad incident with someone he thought he was close to...

 

Anyway... thanks for the feedback. Glad to hear it is not as prevalent as the board can make it sound.

[trilingual]

I don't recall anyone being drugged and robbed by someone they have known for a while. There HAVE been instances of theft by guys that a client has known for a while. The general assumption in those cases is that the perpetrator probably has gotten involved in drugs (unbeknownst to the client). In the latter case, the best bet to avoid tempting a guy you know is to keep your valuables out of sight and sufficiently well concealed that they can't be located instantly. Even without the issue of drugs being involved, you must remember that these guys almost all come from poor backgrounds and by Brazilian standards we're ridiculously wealthy. Even the nicest guy can be tempted if you leave money, jewelry, computers, cameras, etc. strewn around your room! So use common sense and avoid putting the guys in this situation.

 

As you can see from the postings, many M4Mers have developed good relationships with some of the guys they've met in Rio. Of course, this depends on a lot of factors: your ability to speak Portuguese (or at least Spanish), the guy's ability to speak English, your familiarity with the culture, and how you treat the guys, among many other variables. However, if you treat the guys with respect and as equals you'll be well on your way to a good relationship. Do NOT make the mistake of treating these guys like servants, just because you're paying them. If you do, you're very likely to end up regretting it in the long run.

 

Tomcal is a shining example of the kind of M4Mer who has made many friends in Rio. His Portuguese is extremely limited (to be kind about it) but he treats the guys royally. As anyone can see, his good (not necessarily extravagant) treatment of the guys wins their respect and admiration.

 

Note: DO NOT, repeat DO NOT throw money around or overspend on the guys. They'll accept your largesse, of course, but they'll take you for a mark and a fool, and will take advantage of the situation. Paying the standard rate with a decent tip, treating to drinks or moderately-priced meals, and giving reasonable gifts to favorites (like T-shirts from your home country, imported cologne, or a pair of jeans or athletic shoes from someplace nice but not outrageous like the Taco chain in Rio) will help win friends and influence people. Just keep it all within reason.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

As someone with a genuine interest in visiting someday... just a little thinking out loud. I have to wonder if incidence is anywhere near 1% that seems alarming. Consider that that is the quoted probability of acquiing HIV from bareback sex which seems to send the membership into a tizzy. I won't compare the severity of the risks but there is substantial risk to both and I concede they are not the same.

 

More alarming than the seeming high potential incidence is the fact that it also can depend somewhat on who knows who. It is understandable that an unknown quanitity might be dangerous. It seems less so that someone known to one person and has been no problem may be trouble for someone else. This seems to display situational character. I don't like that ... even if I am the one on good terms. Situations change. (Ask Hoo Boy) This last observation based on earlier posts about sauna boy A known to client 1 ripped off client 2. That sort of situational character makes me uneasy to say the least and really dictates that one may have to treat all as unreliable no matter how long known by me or a friend. Ulitmately it seems one may have to treat all the same as the guy picked up on the street. I hope that this is not the case.

[trilingual]

You're right. These incidents are rare. That's why they stand out and become noteworthy. Keep in mind that many of us have been going to Brazil for years and years (more than 20 in my case) and have NEVER had a problem. And I haven't exactly been monastic during my stays.

 

One factor I forgot to mention that may increase the probability of these incidents: alcohol/drugs. One reason I've never run into these kinds of problems is that I drink very little (usually nothing, but occasionally a couple of beers or caipirinhas at a maximum). Therefore, I can keep my wits about me. Getting loaded and then taking someone home is an invitation to trouble. That's especially true because in Latin cultures being drunk and out-of-control is considered disgraceful and unmanly. Drunken gringos are despised in Latin countries and easily become targets for people who consider them fair game. After all, they bring it on themselves. If they were in control of themselves, people wouldn't even consider taking advantage of them.

 

So do as Latins do: Have a couple of beers or drinks, then STOP! Or stick to soft drinks, bottled water, fruit juice or coffee. Nobody will consider it strange or inappropriate, and you will be in much more control of a situation in which you are in a foreign country where you don't necessarily understand the language or the culture.

[buckguy]

I've been to Rio twice, once on my own, once where I spent a lot of time with M4Mers. I plan to go back in January. I don't think it's reasonable to compare the odds of a bad experience with a sauana or other biy with barebacking--in terms of the relative odds or the way in which people react.

 

The basic adise makes sense. Outside of the saunas, go with people who are known to other M4Mers or with an agency. On my first trip, I was chatted up by a guy at Corujinha. I was there on my own, so I had no one to offer an opinion of this guy. He was well spoken and his "story" was far enough away from the usual cliches that he sounded genuine. Moroever, he proposed meeting the next day, rather than going to my hotel. I still declined. Even without knowing other M4Mers (and I think a couple were around at the same time), I just want't comfortable, even the guy seemed credible and attractive. I have been a regular traveler to Bangkok for over 10 years and used to live ther--caution and the kinds of iunstincts I listeened to in Rio (listen to your head not your dick) served me well there--I never had any serious problems in Bangkok and had very few regrets.

 

Rio is a more a more dangerous city, generally, than Bangkok. Taking sthat as a starting place, I think it's helpful to be as cautious as possible with whom you choose to spend your time. I was concerned that one guy (a sauna boy I arranged to see at my hotel)didn't understand that some of us (not me) can afford a five star, beachfront hotel and some of us cannot. The second guy tried to get involved with my transactions with the 1st guy as some sort of "help" (his English was better. I did what I could not to let this happen and the guy I had chosen seemed to have better judgment than his "friend".

 

We really can't know what's behind some guys being more reliable for one client than another. It may be drugs, it may be that one client is less security concious with their stuff. My guess is that by now there is a large cohort of people with varying experience in Rio that we can draw some generalizations. Those seem to be that people do better if they stick to the sauna guys or established escort services if they are newbies. At the very least, they need to restrict their Corujinha liaisons to guys who are known to other M4Mers. Jackahmmer offered a heartfelt mea culpa that largely corroborates this recommendation and it fits with most other comments here.

 

I've been lucky enough to travel to a great many places here & abroad over the last 20 years--including the Middle East, different parts of S. America, southern Africa, and many places in Asia. One lesson I've learned is that most of the people who find themselves at a disadvantage have done something like one of the following: be careless with cash or possessions, show off that they have cash or possessions, mistreat loclas and understeimate the consequences, think with their cocks, or simply try to do too much in a jetlagged haze. These general guideliens seem to apply everywhere. They are especially likely to apply in Rio, esp. with guys you don't know who know one else knows.

 

If someone wants a barebacking analogy, it would be this. You can never know the serostatus of an unfamiliar partner, even if they have a test result in their hand--protection is the best course for everyone, including your partner. In a strange place, you can never know much about the character or behavior of someone you've just met, esp. in a hustler environment like Corujinha's. The best course is also caution--go with known quantities and if you're a jetlagged newbie, this also might apply in a sauana environment, too. The guys aren't the same with everyone, but you might be able to miss an obvious loser.

[Guest Tomcal_]

>>Tomcal...His Portuguese is extremely limited (to be kind about it)<<

 

Tri, my Portuguese is getting much better! I know at least 10 words besides OBRIGADO!! LOL

[Guest Tomcal_]

>> One lesson I've learned is that most of the people who find themselves at a disadvantage have done something like one of the following: be careless with cash or possessions, show off that they have cash or possessions, mistreat loclas and understeimate the consequences, think with their cocks, or simply try to do too much in a jetlagged haze. These general guideliens seem to apply everywhere. They are especially likely to apply in Rio, esp. with guys you don't know who know one else knows<<

 

The above is so true! Of the 5 incidents I know of in the past 3 years that I have been going to Rio, 4 would have been prevented by observing one or more of the above! I have probably had somewhere in the vacinity of 150+ guys, outside of the saunas, to either my room at the hotel or the apt. I have never had ONE INCIDENT! Was I just lucky, possibly. But I always follow the advise we have given out here.

Tampa Yankee, I agree with about a boy being ok with one person and not with another, that paticular incident was related to drug use and some other factors, I could say without hesitation, that if you were in Rio I could recommend any number of guys that you would not have a problem with. On Jackhammers first visit, that is how he met Alesandro, I introduced them at Corujinhas and told JH this is a guy he could trust and would have a good time with.

Again, in the case of my friends from L.A. and from Miami, both of whom were told what not to do, both choose to ignore what I said(picking guys up from the beach in Copa, going with guys not from the sauna, and going back to their rooms and then drinking)and both got drugged and their belongings stolen.

While I don't believe in blaming the victim, you put yourself in a position to be taken advantage of by people that only look at you as easy money! The same hold true with guys who overpay or lavish gifts on the boys, rather than respecting them for their genorostiy, the boys think they are foolish. This has been told to me on more than one occasion.

Rather than comparing it to a barebacking analogy, I would compare it to walking in East L.A. or south central, at midnight wearing a rolex, not a smart idea! But basically some guys go to Rio behave in a comparable way!

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

Thanks Tri, Buckguy and Tom for all your input. Most of what you advise has addressed dealing with the unknown guys: it is all sound advice and I practice that whether in Boston, Tampa, NY,DC, Vancouver, or Montreal. My issue in this thread has been the ‘known’ quantity either directly or through someone else, deemed trustworthy, that ultimately turns out to be less than trustworthy. That makes trusting anyone very problematic.

 

I don’t doubt your record Tom and everything else being even I would take one you advised over another, with a better sense of safety. I also understand and appreciate the behavorial foundation of a relationship. How you treat them, whether you project strength, fair character, a sense of street smarts, etc. Nevertheless the admittedly handful of posts I have seen in the past would leave a nag in the back of my mind about who I am really dealing with -- even after I had gotten to know him. I’m sure with growing familiarity that nag would diminish.

 

But here is the issue in a nutshell. Every time something like this comes up I hear that well… the guys come from a very poor background and they think the Americans are very rich and they rip us off because we can afford it. Well, whether we can afford it or not is not the issue. What is the issue is the basic character in the culture that rationalizes theft and worse by guys that act trustworthy with one individual and not with another or guys that are trsutworthy for a period of time that eventually runs out. I know that I am painting with a broad brush here but I am trying to understand whether a broad cultural principle exists as I have inferred from past posts or whether these are just some examples of guys getting into drugs and turning bad. And if the latter then how common is that?

 

MY analogy with HIV was limited in that it seemed to share the same probability of encounter with numbers suggested here, yet without the same alarm for potential encounter. The ultimate risks may or may not be different I won’t argue. However, when I contemplate someone drugging me then I consider my life at ultimate risk since I have zero control over it in the presence of dangerous people.

 

Maybe there is one more similarity I hadn’t seen earlier. Assume that EVERYONE you encounter in BZ is a risky character and practice safe socializing accordingly? Is it a basic character of the culture? I hope not, yet it seems to be the explanation by the experienced hands when one is offered.

 

BTW this won't dissuade me from going. It does give me pause on how I will conduct my time there when that day comes. And it causes me to wonder about the basic character of the Brazilian male culture.

[Guest ihpguy]

Since the M4M festa last October, I have now made five trips to Rio de Janeiro with a total duration of ninety days. Surprisingly to family and friends here in the US, I've ended up buying a home in Brasil, located on Paqueta. I guess that you could call me a true "Brazil Nut" Luckily, I am not one who is enthralled with the whole Corujinha's noght-time show. It helps that the last boat to the island leaves from the Praca XV at 11:00PM. But I have been to all parts of Rio de Janeiro and interacted with the many citizens. Most people assume since my Portguese is improving with each trip that I am from Germany and not the US. Perhaps a major part of the "Good Night, Cinderella" problems is how we carry ourselves not only in Brazil but at home as well. I would no more leave a drink at a bar in the US to go to the john than anywhere in Rio. Besides, with what the costs of drinks are in Brazil, simply order a new one. What is the difference? There are newstands all over Rio. If you want a piece of gum or a mint, you can buy a package for no more than 1.50R. In a US bar, if by yourself, wouldn't you take your glass or bottle with you? Well, why not automatically in Rio as well? Being that this is 31 October, didn' your parents tell you not to take candy from strangers? The Brazilian candy you might meet on the beach, in the street, at a sauna or tableside at Corujinha's might certainly be even more tempting, but no less dangerous. But without a doubt, be sure these warnings do not make you change your mind about traveling to our "Cidade Maravilhosa"

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

Thanks for taking the time to respond but if this is a response to my concern it missed the mark. It is on target as far as general precautions that one should always practice.

[trilingual]

>>>Tomcal...His Portuguese is extremely limited (to be kind

>about it)<<

>

>Tri, my Portuguese is getting much better! I know at least 10

>words besides OBRIGADO!! LOL

 

You mean you've finally found time to study that helpful list of "phrases Berlitz won't teach you" in the FAQ section? }( You do realize, of course, that "unh, unh, UNNNH!" is not actually Portuguese? So that one doesn't count!

[Guest Tomcal_]

When I went to Rio the first time in 2001, the only information on the sauna and the "scene" in Rio was Tri's original review. There was not any information on the dangers or what to watch out for or what to do or not to do. So my first two visits I only had sex in the saunas, I never took anyone back to the hotel, this is just common sense. With the experience of repeated visits and knowledge I have gained, I am with more guys in the apartment than in the suanas, as I prefer the comfortability that it offers over a suana room.

The first thing I do when I get to the room when I arrive in Rio before I unpack my suitcase is put my passport/credit cards/camera in the safe! I have a photocopy of my passport in my pocket and enough cash for that day and one credit card. When I have someone back in the room, even someone I have been with over the last 3 years repeatedly, that routine doesn't change! I don't go take a shower and leave them in the room alone, they go with me!

I never took the subway and now I take it all the time(and has Tri so kindly put it in a recent post, I don't speak any Portuguese!), to downtown to go to SPA73 which is about a 8 or 10 block walk from that station, which some have said is not in the best area. I don't do that walk after dark, I take a cab back..just a precaution. This kind of precaution needs to always be in the front of everyone's mind, while Rio is a modern city, it's a third world country, with all the ramifacations that brings!

I stated in the previous post that the incident rate is 1%, actually I would put it at .1%, when I think of all the guys I know who have been to Rio repeatedly and the number of "visits" they have had, it really is closer to .1% This could change with the many new guys coming to Rio each year and not reading and heading the advise in this forum.

In all honesty, I don't act any different in NYC or L.A. or Miami, all cities I frequent. All of which a careless person can get into trouble if they are not careful.

[trilingual]

The problem is that you're taking occasional and infrequent occurrences and generalizing them to Brazilian culture as a whole. The average Brazilian is as honest (if not more so) than the average American. I remember the occasions, for example, when someone ran after me for two blocks downtown because I'd forgotten my cheap ballpoint pen in the Citibank ATM lobby, or the cab driver who returned my brand-new cell phone that slipped out of my pocket when getting out of his cab. And it goes on.

 

Understanding what goes on in the minds of Brazilians is not really harder than understanding anyone else. Temptation is a universal weakness -- invite hustlers to your luxury apartment in North America or Europe where all your belongings are on display and see how long it takes before something disappears. Drugs are a universal problem -- how many people have we all known who got into drugs and changed before our very eyes into someone else? And had them betray us or steal from us? Sometimes people we have known for years!

 

Then there's revenge, a universal motive: treat someone disrespectfully or condescendingly, or try cheating them out of what they're due, or otherwise harm or offend them, and you're likely to experience something unpleasant in return.

 

And, as stated elsewhere, there's the issue of being drunk/stoned in public: you might as well put a "mug me" sign on your back! Especially in Latin countries, where IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR TO BE OUT OF CONTROL OF YOURSELF! (I can't emphasize that enough; this is a very different attitude than we're accustomed to in North America/Northern Europe.)

 

All of these are situations that occur anywhere, not just in Brazil. If you somehow expect to find that Brazil is the Garden of Eden you'll be disappointed. Brazil is the earthly, not the heavenly, paradise. But if you can avoid over-analyzing things, and treat yourself to a trip to Brazil, and behave decently and use common sense, you're very likely to end up being yet another confirmed "Brazil Nut."

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

>The problem is that you're taking occasional and infrequent

>occurrences and generalizing them to Brazilian culture as a

>whole.

 

Not quite I think. I was asking those knowledegable and experienced if such occasional and infrequent occurrences reported here, more or less dismissed by rationalizations of an attitude based on poverty vs affluence, applied to the society in the large or are they really no more than individual cases of 'bad apples'. I apologize for not stating this question more succintly before.

 

My question was prompted by the rationaliziation offered coupled with the fact that a subset of bad apples seemed to be problems for some clients and not for others or that they became a problem with the same client over time.

 

 

>Temptation is a universal weakness...

 

Granted. But with the exception of the gravest circumstances basic character doesn't vary with temptations IMO.

 

> Drugs are a universal problem -- how many people have we all

>known who got into drugs and changed before our very eyes

>into someone else?

 

Also granted.

 

It is my impression, maybe mistakenly, that people are either honest and trustworthy or they are not. Generally I don't expect someone's character to vary according to whom they know or over time or based on the temptation at hand. ( I grant that drug addiction can alter this.) Hence my question regarding whether this might be a cultural thing as the rationalization caused me to to wonder.

 

 

The average Brazilian is as honest (if not more so)

>than the average American.

 

This answers my question. It also has implications for the rationalization offered to explain the occasional and infrequent

occurrences. I am satisfied. Thanks to all for shedding light on my query.

[marc anthony]

TThanks to all to responding to my initial question. I have just a few specific comments, and few of my own personal conclusions.

 

 

The average Brazilian is as honest (if not more so)

>than the average American.

 

This is not necessarily a compliment (hehe). But seriously, it compares the wrong subgroup of people for this discussion. The question really is whether the average Brazilian sauna boy or working boy is as trustworthy as the average Canadian/Thai/Czech/Dutch/American dancer/escort/stripper/hooker. As when deciding where to go for a gay "recreational" vacation, that is the real issue.

 

 

> Drugs are a universal problem -- how many people have we all

>known who got into drugs and changed before our very eyes into

>someone else? And had them betray us or steal from us?

>Sometimes people we have known for years!

 

Actually to be honest... never for me for question #2. And maybe I am just lucky. But I have known several boys who have gone down the tubes to rock bottom due to drugs. And they have changed, dramatically. And they do beg for money, all the time. But not one of them has ever stolen or betrayed me.... so far (I am not a dreamer). But I think that if your basic character is a honorable one, even on drugs it is not given that you will betray or steal from those you care about.

 

>

>Then there's revenge, a universal motive: treat someone

>disrespectfully or condescendingly, or try cheating them out

>of what they're due, or otherwise harm or offend them, and

>you're likely to experience something unpleasant in return.

>

>And, as stated elsewhere, there's the issue of being

>drunk/stoned in public: you might as well put a "mug me" sign

>on your back! Especially in Latin countries, where IT IS NOT

>ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR TO BE OUT OF CONTROL OF YOURSELF! (I

>can't emphasize that enough; this is a very different attitude

>than we're accustomed to in North America/Northern Europe.)

 

These are good points, but they are not me... and I agree that this is just common human courtesy.

 

 

Travel to any destination is a risk-benefit analysis. You wonder how much pleasure you will get out of it, and you weigh that against how expensive and how risky it might be to you. Obviously the upside to Brazil seems unlimited, but I had to ask about these issues as there is obviously some risk as well. In fact, on these boards, really the only desitinations that seem to document multiple episodes of this sort are Brazil and Prague.

 

For me, as those of you who read my posts and/or reviews know, it is very important that my interactions with "hired help" be more than just about sex. Obviously, language is a big factor in this issue... but even more important than language is the issue of trust. I have had Canadian boys on trips with me where we were both carrying English/French dictionaries. But I never feared for my safety or the safety of my belongings.

 

I guess for me, I was asking if that was going to be possible in Brazil. The consensus of what I am hearing is that it might be possible, but not for the occasional traveller. That is what I will have to consider when I decide if it is worth it for me to go. (Of course this will all be moot if my Brazilian boy puts his head on my shoulder and says, pleeeeeeease... LOL)

[marc anthony]

OOOPS: I wanted to address this comment too, but forgot to in my post. It is kind of after the fact, but might as well be complete.

 

 

Temptation is a

>universal weakness -- invite hustlers to your luxury apartment

>in North America or Europe where all your belongings are on

>display and see how long it takes before something disappears.

 

I agree. But in many of these places you can invite them to your hotel room and not be that concerned about locking up your passport, wallet, watch, jewelry, etc. I know that for me, my usual destinations are Canada and big cities in the US. I don't leave 10K out on the table for people to see, for example, but have never hesitated to go to the bathroom with my cellphone, rings, watch, etc still on the nightstand.

 

I hope every one understands that I am not picking on Brazil. I am just trying to think out loud for myself...and trying to decide if for someone like me who values long term interactions and relationships in my hiring, as well as sex, Brazil is the right destination.