*visiting a (gentrified) favela

[+ José Soplanucas]

I guess you all have heard about Vidigal, a favela next to Leblon that used to be dangerous many years ago. It has been gentrified for a long time now, you can even find Airbnbs at 1K USD per month.

Besides keeping many traces of its interesting history, there are a few bars and restaurants at the top that deliver an amazing view (check the pictures I took last August).

This post is to let you know that a friend of mine, who used to live there, is now working as a guide. His name is Patrick and this is his Instagram:

Patrick Ptk (@tpk_008) • Instagram photos and videos

WWW.INSTAGRAM.COM

---

405 Followers, 1,462 Following, 18 Posts - Patrick Ptk (@tpk_008) on Instagram: "' palavras. vale mais que Atitudes ❤ #jornalista #empresario"

I recommend him with no hesitation. Patrick is knowledgeable, fun, and will deliver an authentic  and safe Vidigal experience. He is still working on his English, but language will not be an obstacle to enjoy his personal charm and this beautiful Carioca location. Contact him if you want to learn about the life in a favela and enjoy amazing views.

 

 

[+ SirBillybob]

There’s something exquisitely perverse about boarding a climate-controlled tour bus to experience just enough reduced poverty and just enough well deserved life quality improvement to label as gentrified while stepping over people already living it on the sidewalk outside your lodgings. Apparently, cardboard pad walkway and alley dwellers and sleepers in tourist zones don’t equally count as “authentic,” so they’re edited out of the narrative in favour of a scheduled, guided, photo-approved version of thinly veiled deprivation. 

This particular favela tour promises insight on what contrasts with overall favela zone city reality, but delivers something closer to a poverty safari if astute: observe branded suffering voyeuristically at a safe distance, learn just enough context to feel informed, then retreat for lunch with friends with a geographic view that serendipitously further sanitizes the unscripted and inconvenient misery outside the bus or along the way, or actually at stay base, because it asks uncomfortable questions that can’t be answered with a headset and a fun fact, albeit a leg up for a tour guide making an honest living.

It’s a remarkable bit of moral choreography: avert your eyes from the homeless man on Avenida Atlântica environs or the many living sunburnt on concrete in Glória and Flamengo so you can later feel enlightened about whitewashed inequality—on time, on budget, and back at the hotel by sunset.

One doesn’t have to uptake a scripted information tour, ticking off bucket list favela when the option to absorb unfiltered reality is in one’s face. 

Options: theme film, YouTube, spend ticket amount on true organized poverty attenuation activities or the lifeless appearing body you could easily trip over. Or better yet, both …  and. U do you. 

Edited Saturday at 01:02 PM by SirBillybob

[+ José Soplanucas]

Ignore the trolls. This is a great experience.

[+ SirBillybob]

34 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

Ignore the trolls. This is a great experience.

Thanks for your concern and your response whose worth stands at 0 stars, but it’s legal to have a sociocultural opinion.

That the outing has appeal is really partly what I was getting at. Why wouldn’t it be an OK activity for what a proportion of evaluators would nevertheless label metaphorically sheep shepherded in within the frame of a boilerplate list of visitor activities?

That doesn’t mean you get to dictate how it’s conceptualized from different vantage points. It doesn’t mean that your recommendations are to be taken as gospel. There is a broader context within which the legitimacy of self-appointed guidance expertise is viewed. Your post thread here is just a slice of your overall content and I would expect that you value it all being noticed and rated collectively, as long as nobody sprinkles a shower on your parade.

I do think you have occasionally entered recommendations that don’t get my hackles up. Others are cringeworthy and get my ethics juices flowing. More on that to come, but I think it might be good for you and the group. Stock up on Wheaties. 

My evaluation of overall content is whether a visit’s sched or activity uptake put together as a whole by one particular individual would inspire me to draw on that guidance. Yours does not. Not everybody is cut out for it and that goes for any occupation and hobby in which somebody seeks influencer status. 

If you resent 360-degree feedback then you always have the prerogative to slingshoot yourself out of the trajectory at any given angle.

Edited Saturday at 03:14 PM by SirBillybob

[+ Lucky]

I once took a guided walking tour of another favela. It was quite interesting and I am glad I saw things up close.  I do agree that making favela tours akin to a sightseeing bus trip does less good. All in all, I want to see favela life improve.

[+ SirBillybob]

22 minutes ago, Lucky said:

All in all, I want to see favela life improve.

🙏🏼
”Gentrification” is not all good for all inhabitants. Your account suggests the activity was relatively innocuous for locals, you grasp the nuances of the sociocultural footprints you leave behind that are not uniformly salutary, and is not framed within influencer endeavour.

Edited Saturday at 03:42 PM by SirBillybob

[jjlucky]

For folks who are interested in actual details about Patrick's tours, as opposed to troll commentary:

[+ SirBillybob]

15 minutes ago, jjlucky said:

For folks who are interested in actual details about Patrick's tours, as opposed to troll commentary:

You lost me both at your explicit troll commentary and the type of activity window dressing that underpins a broader critique of the range of implications of Looky-Lou tourism.

It’s up to the mods to categorize a poster’s content as befitting ‘troll’ categorization; they are the resident ‘something burgers’ in that domain. I think you’re new and there is hope that you can catch on. 

Edited Saturday at 03:41 PM by SirBillybob

[+ José Soplanucas]

38 minutes ago, Lucky said:

I do agree that making favela tours akin to a sightseeing bus trip does less good

That would be a good point if it were true. I invite you to read the info shared by another poster. Ultimately, if we are concerned about poverty in favelas or anywhere else, we could support the local businesses and drop some of our extra dollars. This is organized by favela inhabitants, in their own benefit.

I still hope to see you in Rio, Lucky.

[CuriousByNature]

1 hour ago, SirBillybob said:

You lost me both at your explicit troll commentary and the type of activity window dressing that underpins a broader critique of the range of implications of Looky-Lou tourism.

It’s up to the mods to categorize a poster’s content as befitting ‘troll’ categorization; they are the resident ‘something burgers’ in that domain. I think you’re new and there is hope that you can catch on. 

I share your concern about looky-loo tourism that profits from the misfortune of others.  But this seems to be different - at the very least because the favela residents themselves are involved and are benefitted by the venture.  Not everyone may be benefitted, I'm sure, but enough to reasonably conclude that this isn't really the same as looky-loo tourism.  Looky-loo tourism doesn't build community connection, but this seems to show potential for that.

[+ SirBillybob]

2 hours ago, CuriousByNature said:

I share your concern about looky-loo tourism that profits from the misfortune of others.  But this seems to be different - at the very least because the favela residents themselves are involved and are benefitted by the venture.  Not everyone may be benefitted, I'm sure, but enough to reasonably conclude that this isn't really the same as looky-loo tourism.  Looky-loo tourism doesn't build community connection, but this seems to show potential for that.

Thanks, but I’m not living under a rock, have been visiting long periods for over a decade, and Vidigal has always been comparatively advantaged by virtue of its proximity to wealthier areas. The “gentrification” has made it palatable for tourism but the trickle-down effect of subsequent benefit is not uniform and some categories of longterm residents may be displaced by property values soaring. Obviously some people benefit by the opportunity to provide tourists with the false proclamation that they actually have an experiential grasp of the reality of urban favela life. In this sense ‘favela’ becomes a misnomer. The superficiality of pretty tourism promotion is not a valid proxy for discounting the downsides of change. I merely presented an established summary of counterpoint that I only drew from entities far more equipped for critical appraisal on this topic than most of us. That and the reality that my career was predominantly centred among the vastly disenfranchised.

Prolly nothing from the rank and file here to ‘learn’ me, though your interaction style is appreciated. 

Also not lost on me is the sense that low-paid underprivileged favela youth are favoured by a subcategory of punters visiting Rio. What might one expect other than minimal degrees of separation between justification for favela tourism and the defense of slinflint trade compensation that is purported to be of benefit given that, after all, resource acquisition is impoverished and what a boost is conferred when offering accessible for high- health risk sexual favours, including condomless bottoming within the “negotiated” choreography? It’s not just the what of the debate; it’s the who. 🤮

Edited Saturday at 07:53 PM by SirBillybob

[jjlucky]

I am not in the habit of commenting on posts like this -- life is short. But since this poster seems open to learning, I'll give it a shot. 

By way of introduction I am an American who has been working and vacationing in Brazil for more than 25 years. I am a cultural anthropologist and a journalist by trade, with a profound love and respect for Brazil, its people and its potential. Over the years I have lived in Rocinha (the largest favela in South America), currently live across the street from Tabajara, do volunteer work at a school in PPG, and am working with a business incubator in Vidigal. My boyfriend is a cria, and most of my closest Brazilian friends -- like 80% of the rest of the population -- lives in the favela. I am sure there are gringos who know more about favela life...but I have not met one yet.

Vidigal is interesting and unique in a number of ways, and not because it is close to Leblon. In fact, Vidigal is the favela that led the community resistance movement AGAINST gentrification. And in doing so, Vidigal established a pattern, and legal precedent, that many other communities in Brazil followed. Vidigal helped assure that the favela communities across Brazil retained internal empowerment and control against economic forces trying to erase them.

In my experience, no two favelas are the same. Some are, in fact, desperate and unsafe due to the influence of organized crime. Others are full of the kind of vibrant energy and creativity that Brazil is famous for. What is true about all of them: They are full of families who are trying to thrive, and also individuals with big dreams. In this respect, they are exactly like any community anywhere. In my opinion, visiting a favela can be a mind-expanding, even life-changing experience. It absolutely was for me. It all depends on how you onboard what you see, what you feel, how you connect, and most importantly -- how you go forward.  

As a gringo, I try to resist the urge to pontificate on what is, or is not, good for the favela and the people who live there. I've found my own answer, and it involves helping to create economic and educational opportunities for the people who live and work in these extraordinary communities. "Favela tourism" is an easy thing to bark about, and to dismiss. But the truth on the ground is vastly more nuanced. Supporting local tours that have a community-first values system is just one way that anyone can give back to the community when they visit Rio. And maybe the experience will give something back to you? 

[+ SirBillybob]

20 hours ago, jjlucky said:

I am not in the habit of commenting on posts like this -- life is short. But since this poster seems open to learning, I'll give it a shot. 

By way of introduction I am an American who has been working and vacationing in Brazil for more than 25 years. I am a cultural anthropologist and a journalist by trade, with a profound love and respect for Brazil, its people and its potential. Over the years I have lived in Rocinha (the largest favela in South America), currently live across the street from Tabajara, do volunteer work at a school in PPG, and am working with a business incubator in Vidigal. My boyfriend is a cria, and most of my closest Brazilian friends -- like 80% of the rest of the population -- lives in the favela. I am sure there are gringos who know more about favela life...but I have not met one yet.

Vidigal is interesting and unique in a number of ways, and not because it is close to Leblon. In fact, Vidigal is the favela that led the community resistance movement AGAINST gentrification. And in doing so, Vidigal established a pattern, and legal precedent, that many other communities in Brazil followed. Vidigal helped assure that the favela communities across Brazil retained internal empowerment and control against economic forces trying to erase them.

In my experience, no two favelas are the same. Some are, in fact, desperate and unsafe due to the influence of organized crime. Others are full of the kind of vibrant energy and creativity that Brazil is famous for. What is true about all of them: They are full of families who are trying to thrive, and also individuals with big dreams. In this respect, they are exactly like any community anywhere. In my opinion, visiting a favela can be a mind-expanding, even life-changing experience. It absolutely was for me. It all depends on how you onboard what you see, what you feel, how you connect, and most importantly -- how you go forward.  

As a gringo, I try to resist the urge to pontificate on what is, or is not, good for the favela and the people who live there. I've found my own answer, and it involves helping to create economic and educational opportunities for the people who live and work in these extraordinary communities. "Favela tourism" is an easy thing to bark about, and to dismiss. But the truth on the ground is vastly more nuanced. Supporting local tours that have a community-first values system is just one way that anyone can give back to the community when they visit Rio. And maybe the experience will give something back to you? 

Thanks for the input. And that maybe you can read thoughtfully and with an actual attention span. It nudged the dial. Although I was not unaware of the expanded and interesting rhetoric you put forth. I also commenced my years of visits with family stays. 

Some of us are negatively predisposed to recommendations from punters who, within the same platform, neglect … compared to our guidelines … to adequately construct blog guardrails for young or vulnerable people who may not fully grasp the permanence of online sexual content, to which they “consent” where asymmetry of power turns documentation into commodification. In contrast to conventional ad platforms where subscription determines image shelf life, if they cannot opt out of blog review images, including anal sphincter photos, for example, on their own prerogative without middleman control I’m not going to buy in. The justification put forward so far is that people like sex (true ‘nuff) and the binary of commercial sex work legality need be the sole consideration. Not nuanced at all.  

What feels temporary and expedient for a socioeconomically disadvantaged Colombian or Brazilian at 18+ can become costly at 30 —>->, what have you. The ethics playbook of one agenda will inadvertently spill into perceptions of gringo exploitation in relation to the very context in which naïve young people are plucked for dehumanizing masked as erotic expression. Surely somebody as intelligent as you can understand. And we can both get, with personal histories of ‘pro bono’ community contribution, that the fantasy this fellow maintains about magnanimous advocacy and his gluttonous desire for influencer status recognition within the legit yet complex field of prostitution collapses under the weight of narcissism. 

But take a look yourself and you and your associates can draw your own conclusions. Beware the antagonism to which you may be subject should you fail to drink the Koolaid.

If I were to tour Vidigal it would likely still be contaminated by the association. His contributions are that ubiquitous while often offputting. All I require is that I be right about it for me. People like him pushing promotion are doing you no favour; affiliating with him amounts to prostituting your psyche. I can compartmentalize certain aspects of a person but in this case the synthesis of two competing agendas amounting to zero sum of worth for your enclave is just too much to stomach. In this case cancel culture connotes a paradoxical rejection of exploring something that is possibly good because the wrong person endorsed it while setting it back. We don’t draw on specific contemporaneous political analogy here because it is usually inflammatory and superfluous anyway. 

Edited yesterday at 04:47 PM by SirBillybob

[jjlucky]

So let me get this straight... As I am sure you know, the average Brazilian -- and virtually 100% of the people who live in a place like Vidigal -- earn the Brazilian minimum wage. That's the equivalent of about $300 USD per month. Let's pause and think about the incredible implications of this fact on the choice-making that families do to survive. So based on what you're saying, you would avoid visiting the favela to buy a hamburger or a pizza or take a community-based tour -- something that would materially improve the lives of the people who live there -- because the original recommendation came from someone you don't happen to like? I think that is enormously sad, and also disconnected from how you describe your career working with disadvantaged people. If all of my actions required an advance screening -- according to my own particular beliefs -- of the morality of the people around me, my world would become very small, and very narrow-minded, very fast. I prefer a big, messy, open-hearted world where people occasionally change their minds and evolve. It's so much more fun that way, too.

[+ SirBillybob]

22 hours ago, jjlucky said:

So let me get this straight... As I am sure you know, the average Brazilian -- and virtually 100% of the people who live in a place like Vidigal -- earn the Brazilian minimum wage. That's the equivalent of about $300 USD per month. Let's pause and think about the incredible implications of this fact on the choice-making that families do to survive. So based on what you're saying, you would avoid visiting the favela to buy a hamburger or a pizza or take a community-based tour -- something that would materially improve the lives of the people who live there -- because the original recommendation came from someone you don't happen to like? I think that is enormously sad, and also disconnected from how you describe your career working with disadvantaged people. If all of my actions required an advance screening -- according to my own particular beliefs -- of the morality of the people around me, my world would become very small, and very narrow-minded, very fast. I prefer a big, messy, open-hearted world where people occasionally change their minds and evolve. It's so much more fun that way, too.

Fancy manipulating, dude. Thanks no thanks for the lecture. Do not try to “handle” me without an interpersonal visa and not expect reciprocity.

Now let’s get to what is a dressing down as justified, perhaps no less impressive … 

If it comes down to dollars and cents and their obvious purchase power just inform me what would be a meaningful $$ donation to the cause and we can arrange it off-grid via DM.

My disinclination to accept a tourism recommendation was not intended to starve any particular constituency of important resources but was related to an attempt, obviously futile, to deprive the influence-seeking person recommending it of oxygen in a way that spills over into the wellness-undermining activities that directly deleteriously impact one or more favela communities. Can’t you read?

My admittedly short-hand take on the side of the narrative in which constituents are viewed as subject to exploitourism fit neatly at the time with the oppression I view as inherent within a peer’s approach to documenting in the public domain trade experiences with identifiable young naïve males.

I appreciated the course correction but I expected you to be less thick and get it. Yes, it gets personal. You have yet to read the room comprehensively or know me. You’re a journalist so act like one and chase facts, not simply mic drop a superficial opinion based on your apparent inclination to self-aggrandizing. Be better, and concede that you are not necessarily the smartest and most approachable person in the room. 

You have no idea the flack I get for dissuading fellow punters from nickel-and-diming locals. I’m the guy who topples the economy by overpaying a dollar. Guess who exists as grandpoobah of skinflintery? And whose recommendations for brothels with CSW loading of the youngest and most socio-economically disadvantaged male trade I dismiss? So arrest or sue me for the unquantifiable financial collateral damage to MSM trade endured by my nonattendance. Now I have two separate jackass-sourced reasons to steer clear of Vidigal. 

If I were to contribute I would, however, require that you drill down into the extant available material that underpins my appraisal of a person whose behaviour I don’t like and whose ethics I reject. If your simplistic reductionist approach is that you two can ultimately get a room in your big-hearted open love-in world and braid each others hair then we’ll need to discount my offer, or connect me with somebody there in possession of the intelligence and grit to engage meaningfully … they needn’t be MA’d or D’d. Maybe they would have in common my lack of expectation to be compensated for my time. 

Welcome. Don’t get lost. Or get lost. We’ll see, non?

Next.

Edited 10 hours ago by SirBillybob

[Cooper]

Administrator’s Reminder 

Gentlemen,

You’re taking this thread off-topic. Return to the original subject, “visiting a (gentrified) favela”. 🙏

[+ SirBillybob]

Thought-stimulating presentation by, I believe, Londoner in urban studies. Centric on favela males’ lived experience. 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by SirBillybob

[+ SirBillybob]

Is Bangu’s Boate Casa Grande, RdeJ, with entertainment and MSM trade, in a favela or sufficiently adjacent, moderators, to justify not decoupling its implications for favela inhabitants while adding commentary on a piece that was written about it and entered within the public domain some time ago? Seems present-day day relevant, from what was intended to be an interesting anthropological or quasi-anthropological ‘field’ report perspective. 

Edited 7 hours ago by SirBillybob

[+ SirBillybob]

Here’s a tangent that informs my perspective in relation to geo-locations similar in thrust as to visitor visibility and access related to other venues, as yet unlisted,  points south.

As an accredited, registered First Nations & Inuit Health provider and having participated extensively in Truth & Reconciliation, Indian Residential Schools abuse compensation testimony, and the like, I happen to also reside in a central Montreal area peppered with unhoused Aboriginal adults. The subgroup receives moderate infrastructure services. Many sleep on the sidewalks. One chap sadly froze to death in a porta-potty a few years back. Inhabitants watch out for one another but he fell into a supportive safety surveillance gap. There are tourism lodgings right there as well but that is not specifically pertinent to any one component of the blend of peoples populating the area.

There is no formal curated tour but these folks like to chat a bit as it breaks the monotony of sitting on curbs between congregate dining offerings. I am happy to show around anybody interested. I think there are obvious parallels thematically. The nearby city mountain can be pretty. The area is relatively gentrified in the McGill Uni vicinity with decent grub/ snack options.

I realize that this is not 'south of the USA' but that reference point is not how this sub-community conceptualizes sense of place. 

We would keep it 'low key', as the kids say.

Coffee on me. Strip club tour not included.

Edited 7 hours ago by SirBillybob

[+ José Soplanucas]

Let me add a little more info about the opportunity I am recommending in my OP.

I met Patrick during my last visit to Rio de Janeiro, where I spent an entire month. Thanks to @floridarob's  mediation, I met @jjlucky, an American expat living in Rio with deep knowledge and lived experience of Brazilian culture, particularly the realities of Brazil’s most disadvantaged communities. Patrick is his boyfriend. Through Akita, I also met a small group of foreigners who gravitate around him.

These were not the kind of gringos who come to Brazil to benefit from lower prices while lecturing locals on how to improve their lives from a position of entitlement and supposed civilized superiority. These were men genuinely in love with Brazil, learning the language, immersing themselves in the culture, and engaging with the country respectfully. They were aware of social and economic shortcomings and involved in efforts to improve local living conditions, but from a place of empathy and genuine care and human empathy, not condescension. As a Latin American myself, I am particularly sensitive to this distinction.

Patrick is a 30 y.o. former GP and a cria: born and raised in a favela. When he was born, Vidigal had not yet been pacified, and he lived through its transformation from a violent, insecure neighborhood into the cultural powerhouse it is becoming today. I felt an immediate affection for him.

The enthusiasm and warmth with which he spoke about his life and his dreams were deeply moving. Unlike many young and not so young people, he does not dream of wealth for its own sake, but of creating projects that can improve life in Vidigal. Although he now lives in a comfortable apartment in Copacabana, his heart and soul have never left the morro above Leblon.

Patrick does concrete things. Last December, he organized a fundraiser to buy gifts for children in the favela. When I visited in August, he was networking and raising funds to open a restaurant in Vidigal, serving popular Brazilian food and employing people from the community. Because of this project, Patrick invited me and a few other non-Brazilian friends to visit his former neighborhood.

We did not take an Uber or an air-conditioned bus. Instead, we waited, as Vidigal residents do, for a spot in one of the minivans that carry workers up the hill in the afternoon and down to their jobs in the morning. In our van, foreigners were a small minority. As we climbed the morro, Patrick would jump from one side to the other, pointing out landmarks from his life and strategic spots offering privileged views of the city. He seemed to know and love everyone, and everyone seemed to know and love him.

This was not a tour, but a visit to the places where he imagined building his restaurant. Still, I believe the experience offered me a glimpse of what became Patrick’s next dream, one far more achievable than his previous one.

I share again the same info shared before by @jjlucky:

Everything is available in this IG address I shared in my OP and that share here again: 

https://www.instagram.com/tpk_008/

This has nothing to do with sex work, or any kind of exploitation. This has to do on one hand with sharing with you a unique opportunity to have a learning experience that may educate you and radically change your preconceptions about the people from the favelas. On the other hand, this also has to do with supporting a community business run by people from Vidigal, with and for people from Vidigal. This effort could be part of a renaissance for this community similar to what many of us admired in Comuna 13 in Medellín.

[hornyfrog]

Rio gringo resident here. Oh, boy…here goes…

The topic of favela tourism and its potential for exploitation is a hot one here in Rio. Adding that this is posted on sites that largely discuss gay sex tourism adds an uncomfortable layer — but an uncomfortable truth.

On this thread, I don’t think either poster here is entirely right or wrong. There are valid points on both sides, but they’re largely talking past each other. I don’t know any poster history(ies) here, but let’s just remove any seeming personal animus that some might have toward each other and discuss plainly.

Part of the disconnect might be that, in spaces just as these message boards (or in the straight men’s scene, in Facebook groups with men like “Passport Bros”), these kinds of conversations don’t ever really happen in a vacuum. Many men who travel to Brazil even partly for transactional sexcapades and spend time in saunas, hunt ads or do the adjacent sexually-charged scenes might also struggle sincerely with where genuine support ends and exploitation begins. That doesn’t particularly make anyone a saint or a predator, or a hero or a villain. It possibly reflects real attempts to navigate the asymmetries of economies, power, desire, and access — all in good faith.

Because of this and because of some real, lived experiences, some clients might naturally be more cautious about or even suspicious of activities that blur lines between tourism, poverty, exploitation and the sexual economy, especially when “authentic local experience” narratives are attached to young men from more economically vulnerable communities. Ex.: years back, on one of the previous incarnations of these boards, there was a now pretty famous guy who posted about his Rio tour services company that targeted gay male sex tourist clients, and these young, virile male Brazilian tour guides were also openly advertised as offering sexual services to these clients. 

It’s obviously true that residents of favelas like Vidigal and Rocinha survive on very little money, like almost all favelados do, and that small amounts of money to us tourists and expats can matter a whole lot to them. At the same time, economic benefit alone doesn’t automatically make every comunidade tour or locally promoted experience ethical by default.

The questions that actually matter are structural, rather than personal:

• Who organizes the activity and who controls the narrative?

• How is the money distributed, and how transparently?

• What boundaries exist around sexualization, exploitation, photography, and access?

• Does it strengthen community autonomy, or mainly serve outside onlookers’ (lookyloos’) curiosity — or even worse, normalize blurred lines that already make the locals uneasy?

Declining a specific recommendation isn’t the same as refusing to support favela residents generally, just as participating doesn’t automatically confer any grander moral virtue. Even in forums like this one, it seems pretty reasonable for people to want clarity and safeguards, rather than just having hesitation or skepticism framed as indifference or some moral failure. However, it is worth noting that a case being made against exploitation and undue influence will be easily self-sabotaged if discussed with hostility and ego flexing.

If we are being honest, conversations like this one are not just really about Vidigal, or any other favela.

They are about uneasy guilt management among foreign men coming to Brazil and other developing nations, who sit at the intersection of wealth, desire, race, sex and power asymmetry. 

Many men, straight, gay and in between, resolve whatever discomfort they may have differently: Some by participation framed as solidarity. Some by refusal framed as ethics. Some by money as absolution. Some by mere intellectual distancing.

When those strategies collide, conversations can turn ugly very fast — like what seems to have happened here (and elsewhere, like at the other board). 

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

1 hour ago, hornyfrog said:

They are about uneasy guilt management among foreign men coming to Brazil and other developing nations, who sit at the intersection of wealth, desire, race, sex and power asymmetry. 

 

+1

These few words eloquently describe my feelings. And I am talking about my own guilt management.

Edited 4 hours ago by José Soplanucas

[+ SirBillybob]

2 hours ago, hornyfrog said:

Rio gringo resident here. Oh, boy…here goes…

The topic of favela tourism and its potential for exploitation is a hot one here in Rio. Adding that this is posted on sites that largely discuss gay sex tourism adds an uncomfortable layer — but an uncomfortable truth.

On this thread, I don’t think either poster here is entirely right or wrong. There are valid points on both sides, but they’re largely talking past each other. I don’t know any poster history(ies) here, but let’s just remove any seeming personal animus that some might have toward each other and discuss plainly.

Part of the disconnect might be that, in spaces just as these message boards (or in the straight men’s scene, in Facebook groups with men like “Passport Bros”), these kinds of conversations don’t ever really happen in a vacuum. Many men who travel to Brazil even partly for transactional sexcapades and spend time in saunas, hunt ads or do the adjacent sexually-charged scenes might also struggle sincerely with where genuine support ends and exploitation begins. That doesn’t particularly make anyone a saint or a predator, or a hero or a villain. It possibly reflects real attempts to navigate the asymmetries of economies, power, desire, and access — all in good faith.

Because of this and because of some real, lived experiences, some clients might naturally be more cautious about or even suspicious of activities that blur lines between tourism, poverty, exploitation and the sexual economy, especially when “authentic local experience” narratives are attached to young men from more economically vulnerable communities. Ex.: years back, on one of the previous incarnations of these boards, there was a now pretty famous guy who posted about his Rio tour services company that targeted gay male sex tourist clients, and these young, virile male Brazilian tour guides were also openly advertised as offering sexual services to these clients. 

It’s obviously true that residents of favelas like Vidigal and Rocinha survive on very little money, like almost all favelados do, and that small amounts of money to us tourists and expats can matter a whole lot to them. At the same time, economic benefit alone doesn’t automatically make every comunidade tour or locally promoted experience ethical by default.

The questions that actually matter are structural, rather than personal:

• Who organizes the activity and who controls the narrative?

• How is the money distributed, and how transparently?

• What boundaries exist around sexualization, exploitation, photography, and access?

• Does it strengthen community autonomy, or mainly serve outside onlookers’ (lookyloos’) curiosity — or even worse, normalize blurred lines that already make the locals uneasy?

Declining a specific recommendation isn’t the same as refusing to support favela residents generally, just as participating doesn’t automatically confer any grander moral virtue. Even in forums like this one, it seems pretty reasonable for people to want clarity and safeguards, rather than just having hesitation or skepticism framed as indifference or some moral failure. However, it is worth noting that a case being made against exploitation and undue influence will be easily self-sabotaged if discussed with hostility and ego flexing.

If we are being honest, conversations like this one are not just really about Vidigal, or any other favela.

They are about uneasy guilt management among foreign men coming to Brazil and other developing nations, who sit at the intersection of wealth, desire, race, sex and power asymmetry. 

Many men, straight, gay and in between, resolve whatever discomfort they may have differently: Some by participation framed as solidarity. Some by refusal framed as ethics. Some by money as absolution. Some by mere intellectual distancing.

When those strategies collide, conversations can turn ugly very fast — like what seems to have happened here (and elsewhere, like at the other board). 

 

Appreciate the analysis. I think some (not me necessarily) might like it tightened up a bit. Boilerplate is also fine with me and I’m not going to grouse about word count. This reads like standard theory related to opinion and value difference; best practices for effective dispute resolution where consensus is elusive if not impossible. But fluently  applied to some of the core contexts embedded in our chat forum. Here’s my boilerplate, for the record not AI filtered … 

I would say the thread is spicy and conflictual here at CoM. “Conversations” is not the word I would employ. Stellar moderator surveillance makes a huge difference. The criterion or threshold of “ugly” here at CoM wasn’t nearly met IMHO. If there’s “ugly” elsewhere it hasn’t been clearly outlined here and not everybody here is conjoined re: other platforms. Some confusion arises when content in one site is infused with normative reactivity to that of a different site. I’m not advocating for the impossibility of board mutual exclusivity, so we have to live with trying to figure out just what is being responded to.

One of the ideas that I liked most is the notion that everybody has particular lines in the sand with respect to the themes, eg, values, guardrails summarized. These shift internally while also often deviating from others’. Huge variations in terms of degree to which perspectives are amenable to alteration and evolution. On such natural gradients of perspective, one’s position may come across as pearl-clutchingly hypocritical but isn’t, another’s as egregiously dismissive of locals’ wellbeing but isn’t. As you astutely suggest, these are grey areas. 

We read one another’s content but we cannot have much commonality related to what is actually noticed, consumed, and retained. We naturally construct impressions about how coherently presented the very values and principles you cogently summarized come across. All it takes is one or two others’ content to get one’s hackles up. This is exacerbated by inhospitable sparring that is usually superfluous to the values topic. It makes stepping back expedient to untangle one’s appraisal of another’s views, the degree that they cross a line by any reasonable standard, rarely but sometimes manifested, irrespective of the natural inclination to defensiveness and rigidity as opposed to self-reflection. Such lulls for processing usually eventually occur or fizzle out. Other topics are corpses with preservative lime perpetually shovelled on. Wash, rinse, repeat.

That said, there are explicit examples of content that spur my own particular objection to material that may appear neutral superficially to most people but inadvertently reifies what has been internalized in judgement as questionable integrity, and  … to such a degree that association and affiliation is unappealing. What is important is to choose one’s hills judiciously and accept that such spillover may seem ambiguous on paper.

Often one can provide receipts, as the kid’s say, for one’s virtual seemingly almost wholesale rejection of a peer even if obviously you would help them out of a random jam for instance, but there are understandable checks and balances against castigating them and that wouldn’t influence their behaviour anyway. The imperative is to be concise in your own mind … openness to a recommendation for a particular açai loja is not the same as blind acceptance of their weighing in on the benefits of local support activities in one breath and in another breath strongly opinionated yet poorly analyzed bottom-line positioning on the microeconomics of local MSM trade negotiation accompanied by vivid explicit depictions of experiences drawn to buttress personally advantageous pricepoints. Just one example, and not specific to any individual. 

Subfinally, irrespective of profession there is no fiduciary responsibility to play nice with sustained troll harassment, particularly those that are not formal service recipients . Those constraints are applied uniformly for all members but according to the specific constructed regulations of a platform entity. The principle of standing one’s ground and rejecting flack and manipulation where appropriate has no less objective value than that of silence masked as promoting harmony. Being the change you want to see is fine in theory but has its limits particularly within a backdrop of anti-oppression self-efficacy. 

We operate according to behaviour, affect, sensation, imagery, cognition, and interpersonal dynamics. Happy sad angry anxious startled repelled. Messy. I have not solved the ills of social media. We won’t here. 

Edited 2 hours ago by SirBillybob

[jjlucky]

@hornyfrog Thank you so much for your excellent post. It made me think. TBH I've never visited this site or posted here before LatBear's generous post about Patrick's tours. And I don't post often anywhere; I have a profound love/hate relationship with social media. Even moreso these days. So I didn't really think about the implications -- implicit or explicit -- of posting or even discussing an otherwise 100% nonsexual topic on a site called "companyofmen." Call me stupid. I often am. Given the editorial context, it would be natural to make a leap toward sex work or even exploitation, etc. I get it now. Thanks for helping me to that insight. I also was not aware of all the animosity that seems to be rampant in this place. In hindsight, I might have handled this all quite differently. Live and learn!

Having lived in the favela, and working now with Brota (the microentrepreneur business incubator in Vidigal) and Solar (the fabulous school in PPG) I'm super alert to the concerns you raise around narrative, access, and wealth creation/distribution. They're extremely valid issues, and I wish that more folks were able to think and speak as clearly about them as you seem to. I guess I only hope that potential visitors / contributors to the community are not paralyzed by them into inaction or cynicism. That would be a shame for them, and for the community.

Thank you again for opening my eyes. I'm grateful.