When Does the Clock Begin??

[Guest dcdave]

I am honestly seeking opinions from both escorts and experienced clients alike on the following question. I have often hired escorts and have enjoyed dinners with them prior to a one hour session. A few months ago, I hired an escort on the West Coast. I was out there on business and the hotel at which I was staying was about 20 miles from his "place". I offered to meet him for an incall or he could come to the hotel. I left the choice up to him. Indication was that he would do both in and out calls. Through discussions via email, he selected to come to my hotel. When this decision was made, I then invited him to join me for dinner at the hotel. The exact statement from him was "Why don't I come to you, it will save you a drive. And, when a client is paying for a nice dinner, I don't watch the clock." It was a 5 star place and we ate at the best restaurant on property. He had very nice tastes in food and beverage. Dinner was very enjoyable and we spent a comfortable time afterwards for about 45 minutes. The guy was good but possibly a bit hung up on himself. I gave him his envelope and he left. When I returned home I had a scathing email from him about how I owed him for 3 more hours of "his time" - commuting and the time we spent at dinner. I reminded him that he had opted come to me and that he had said he didn't watch the clock when a client was paying for dinner. He still insisted I owed him for his commuting time and dinner time. Never before has an escort charged me for "dinner time" or "show time" like when in Las Vegas. I sent him another $100 for commuting and haven't done anything more. I want to be correct, if that is at all definable, so what is the proper thing in this situation. Dust of your "Miss Manners" primers and let's have your opinions. Thanks.

 

Dave

[Boston Guy]

I think the guy was out of line.

 

I've never had someone charge for commuting time -- even most consultants have a hard time getting away with that one.

 

In terms of charging for dinner, if he didn't specify it ahead of time, it shouldn't count. His statement about not watching the clock reinforces my feeling that he shouldn't have expected to be paid for the time you spent at dinner.

 

On the other hand, if he had made it clear that he was going to charge for that time, you could have made a decision based on that information and, had you decided to proceed, it would have clear you should pay for both dinner and his time. Once again, the rule is clarity on both sides.

 

I find the expectation among escorts that they should be paid at a rate of $200 per hour for coming to dinner a bit amusing. I've enjoyed the company of escorts at dinner any number of times, but would never pay for it just like I would never expect them to pay the check.

 

But to each his own.

[ted]

>Through discussions via email, he

>selected to come to my

>hotel. When this decision

>was made, I then invited

>him to join me for

>dinner at the hotel.

>The exact statement from him

>was "Why don't I come

>to you, it will save

>you a drive. And,

>when a client is paying

>for a nice dinner, I

>don't watch the clock."

 

Given the above exchange I would have done the same. That being said, without that exchange, I would normally assume for a first time meeting, that dinner would be on the clock. It is also quite normal for the rate to be different for an in call vs an outcall. I assume that difference compensates the escort for his travel time and expenses.

In those few instances where I have had dinner with an escort on the first meeting I usually ask for a flat rate for the evening, making sure they know the agenda. Often, the dinner hour(s) ends up somewhat cheaper than the others, it also ensures they are dressed appropriately for the restaurant.

As said here many times discussion up front prevents misunderstandings.

[+ Charlie]

Most escorts who expect to be paid for travel costs give separate rates for "in calls" and out calls"; I have never seen a difference of more than $50 between the two. I can understand a flat rate for an appointment that happens to include dinner, but it takes a lot of chutzpah to charge by the hour for eating a meal which the client has paid for.

[Justice]

The guy was totally out of line. I hope that you're planning to mention the incident in your review.

[Guest KJ]

In New York City where I live, it seems to be the expectation that the time spent during dinner, theatre, or whatever, will include a charge for the time. It may not be exactly at the same rate as more private activities, typically $250 an hour plus or minus, but a 4-hour evening might cost $600 or more. And that does NOT count the cost of the dinner or entertainment, which could easily be an extra $100, $200, or more in this town.

 

Sometimes, when you've seen an escort over and over and something of a friendship develops, these guidelines might be relaxed.

 

On the one hand, I understand that escorts are in a business where if you give something away some of the time, it's hard to charge for it at other times.

 

On the other hand, I'd like to think of our evening together as an hour or so of private time that I'll pay you for. And if you happen to be available the rest of the evening why not join me for a nice dinner, my treat. Take it or leave it. In other words, I'll pay you $250 for our hour in my apartment, and here's an open invitation to eat a nice meal or see a nice show at no (monetary) expense. I haven't yet asked anyone this way, because I sense it won't work.

 

(And just to confuse matters more, why does a young man who provides both massage and escort service charge less for an erotic massage than a roll in the hay? Especially if the time spent is identical. Does the fact that escorting is more forbidden in society's eyes make the price higher? Is there a scale of more money for the greater taboo: being a paid dinner companion, giving a nude massage, and so on, and so on? )

 

I'd be interested to hear what any of the escorts think about this topic.

[Guest curious2000]

The guy sounds like a greedy egomaniac. He was just testing you to see how far he could take advantage of you and then after you were kind and generous with your treating him to an expensive meal? what nerve! How did you send it to him? Did he give you his address and you mailed it to him? You should have made him get in his car and at least come pick it up somewhere. Quite frankly I would not have paid this guy a single cent more because I certainly would not have ever planned on ever hiring such a diva again.

[Boston Guy]

>On the other hand, I'd like

>to think of our evening

>together as an hour or

>so of private time that

>I'll pay you for. And

>if you happen to be

>available the rest of the

>evening why not join me

>for a nice dinner, my

>treat. Take it or leave

>it. In other words, I'll

>pay you $250 for our

>hour in my apartment, and

>here's an open invitation to

>eat a nice meal or

>see a nice show at

>no (monetary) expense. I haven't

>yet asked anyone this way,

>because I sense it won't

>work.

>

 

Why not?? I have done so many times. Escorts have to eat, too, and if he isn't busy he may well jump at the offer. Otherwise he has to either go buy himself dinner or cook, something that lots of younger guys don't look forward to.

 

Don't forget that if you are offering to take him out to dinner at a nice restaurant and pay the check, you are making him a very nice offer. If you are a pleasant fellow, you might be surprised how often an escort will accept your invitation, especially if he expects to see you again and especially if it isn't the first time you've gotten together.

 

I make it clear that I'm not paying for both dinner and for their time. Period. Not on an hourly basis -- even while on the road for business I'm not that hard up for company.

 

If I make such an invitation and the escort accepts, it's usually a lot of fun. If he declines, I invite someone else to donner or read a book. Either way, I'm ahead of the game by several hundred dollars.

 

Also, as I've posted before, I won't pay more than $200. In the last two weeks, I've had two escorts try to charge me $300. One was in LA and the other was in NYC and both conversations occurred on AOL. Both guys are escorts with good reputations here at M4M.

 

In both cases, I thanked them and told them I never pay more than $200 per hour. In both cases, it took less than two minutes for them to say "$200 is OK."

 

One of the consequences of this site is an escalation in the price escorts believe they can charge. It's happening all over America and not just in large cities. When you said above "the going rate in NYC is $250", escorts who currently charge $200 in NYC will probably start thinking they should increase their rates. (I'm not blaming you at all, but am instead making an observation about the workings of the market.)

 

But it's my experience that many if not most view $200 in the hand as worth much, much more than $300 in the bush. You just have to stick to your guns a little.

[Guest]

>On the one hand, I understand

>that escorts are in a

>business where if you give

>something away some of the

>time, it's hard to charge

>for it at other times.

>

Why? Is there some regulation in the lawbooks? Disclosure requirements for past encounters?

 

>(And just to confuse matters more,

>why does a young man

>who provides both massage and

>escort service charge less for

>an erotic massage than a

>roll in the hay? Especially

>if the time spent is

>identical. Does the fact that

>escorting is more forbidden in

>society's eyes make the price

>higher? Is there a scale

>of more money for the

>greater taboo: being a paid

>dinner companion, giving a nude

>massage, and so on, and

>so on? )

 

I think that the difference is that when a client hires an escort, the client calls the shots. When he hires someone for an erotic massage, the masseur calls the shots. I never know quite what I can expect when I hire an erotic masseur. I had one guy who was an erotic masseur, whom I had to practically beg to have him take his shirt off at the end, even though his ad showed him massaging someone with his shirt off. He really didn't want to and seemed annoyed at my insistence (had a fantastic chest, though). Needless to say, I wasn't even allowed to touch it. On the other hand, I've had a number of erotic masseurs that just got turned on by me and we ended up having full-court-press sex. There's this one guy I hired in another town, whom I'd hired a few years previously. The first time we had sex, as we did the second time. After the second time, he told me how ashamed he was that he had been having sex with me. He said he felt he'd compromised his principles, and asked that I not hire him again unless I was sure I didn't want sex. It was too bad because I REALLY liked the guy.

On the one hand, erotic massage can be incredible foreplay, and you may end up having super-hot sex anyways. On the other hand, you can end up with incredible coitus interuptus. Another story I remember was this incredible hunk who just jacked me off. He was so hot, that I ended up hiring him a year later. This time he had sex with me. I asked him why he didn't have sex with me the first time, and he said it was because he was in a relationship. So erotic massages are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're getting into. ;-)

[NY Observer]

I agree with Boston Guy on everything he said.

 

I have been burned before on this same topic. I met an escort who a friend had recommended. I offered to take him for dinner beforehand and he explained that he only did that on the clock. I told him I wouldn't pay for someone to eat, but that I'd be happy to buy him dinner and then we could spend our two hours together as scheduled. He declined that, which was perfectly fine and as I explained to him, that had no bearing on whether or not I'd see him.

 

When he arrived, he suggested going for a drink, which I agreed to. Little did I know that the casual hour we spent sipping our drinks, chatting was my first hour. I felt as if he had taken advantage of my good nature. He knew I didn't want to be on the clock at dinner so how was this different?

 

After an hour back in my hotel room, he said "I'm not a clock watcher but your time is up". I was totally confused (not that unusual) and realized what he had done. That will never happen to me again.

 

As for taking our "dates" to dinner, I almost always offer. It's accepted about half the time and I think makes the experience a whole lot nicer/more complete. On occasion, it's after our appointment, that's nice too. I like to get to know the guy I have selected, I'm frequently interested in a second meeting down the road and even a third or fourth. So I feel that not only is it a free meal with a hopefully interesting person, but it's an investment in the future.

 

As for Boston Guy's comments on rates, I can't agree more. I have been unable (or maybe unwilling) to break the $200 barrier. I feel that is plenty for an hour of companionship. I feel that if we continue to pay the skyrocketing costs, the price will continue to rise. For now, when I read a review of someone who is over $200, I just skip on to the next chapter.

[Guest desertdaddy]

I enjoy spending an evening with an Escort and ask for their fee for a "Dinner Date". I specify the total number of hours (usually four). I have found that this works very well by clarifying my expectations. Rarely have I had an Escort quote me a full hourly rate for each hour of a "Dinner Date". Later... Buck

[Guest youngblood]

Boston--your post makes perfect sense to me. However, I once made the offer of dinner at a great NYC restaurant to a very highly regarded (and award winning) escort on this site immediately following a great time in the sack and he said, "I would really love to join you and am dying to eat there, but I will have to charge you my hourly rate for the time spent at dinner." This was a total turnoff to me, so I politely declined his "counteroffer". I had been with this escort several times prior to my offer of dinner, and though I was not under the misconception that we were "friends", I was thoroughly surprised at his attitude! After all,he did have to eat, and we definately amused each other intellectually! Whatever.

 

As a former attorney, I was often asked by clients, "when does the meter begin to run?" The question was easy for me to answer since the firm provided a detailed retainer agreement for my services which clearly addressed this issue, as well as other matters such as first class airfare, upgraded levels of accomodations, etc.

 

I am not suggesting that escorts draft retainer agreements, but clearly a full disclosure by the escort to the client of the escort's understanding of the fee arrangement might help to avoid the issues first brought up by this posting.

[Guest dcdave]

Thanks to everyone for their advice and comments. There were a lot of real good pointers in all of the replies. That is what makes this site so enjoyable. I will heed everyone's advice. Just a comment - on several occasions, after our hour, I have taken escorts to drinks or dinner. Frequently, that has led to another session immediately. Guess neither of us got our horns clipped enough in the first session. I have never been charged for these second sessions - seems like they were mutually desired - but have always tipped the escort well for them.

 

Dave

[Boston Guy]

>Boston--your post makes perfect sense to

>me. However, I once

>made the offer of dinner

>at a great NYC restaurant

>to a very highly regarded

>(and award winning) escort on

>this site immediately following a

>great time in the sack

>and he said, "I would

>really love to join you

>and am dying to eat

>there, but I will have

>to charge you my hourly

>rate for the time spent

>at dinner." This was

>a total turnoff to me,

>so I politely declined his

>"counteroffer". I had been

>with this escort several times

>prior to my offer of

>dinner, and though I was

>not under the misconception that

>we were "friends", I was

>thoroughly surprised at his attitude!

>After all,he did have to

>eat, and we definately amused

>each other intellectually! Whatever.

>

 

I'd suggest that the loss was his... even attorneys and consultants turn the clock off from to time.

 

I've done a lot of consulting in my day and I've hired a fair number of consultants at equally high rates and by no means was every hour considered billable in either direction.

 

I think that consultants and attorneys, among other professionals, understand that repeat business is extremely important and that part of building a repeat clientele is not appearing to be trying to get every last dollar in the client's pocket or budget. It doesn't seem to me that most escorts are likely to be running out of hours each day -- at least not the full-time escorts; guys who do it part-time above and beyond a full-time job might well have very limited time available -- and accepting the odd dinner invitation off the clock would be good for repeat business.

 

For those full-time escorts who are young and beautiful now but who think they may want to continue escorting for a long time, even after they have gotten older, larger, greyer and less beautiful, it would seem strategic to build a reasonably large stable of happy and dedicated clients who like them as people as well as in the sack.

 

And one way to do just that would be to occasionally accept invitations like yours. But when you are young that strategic outlook might not be uppermost in your mind. And I've seen both young attorneys and new consultants make the mistake of trying to charge for every minute. Experience does make a difference.

 

Which actually brings up a different point: escort agencies seem to be run by experienced guys, at least the good ones. I've never understood their focus on charging to-the-minute. It's one of the reasons I don't use agencies.

 

Perhaps they feel the demand is so high that they don't need to concentrate on repeat customers; or perhaps they feel they provide extra service in other ways.

 

And perhaps I am an isolated example. But escorts who don't have their hand in my pocket every minute we're together ultimately get a lot more of my money than those who do.

[Guest Kenny]

"As for Boston Guy's comments on rates, I can't agree more. I have been unable (or maybe unwilling) to break the $200 barrier. I feel that is plenty for an hour of companionship. I feel that if we continue to pay the skyrocketing costs, the price will continue to rise. For now, when I read a review of someone who is over $200, I just skip on to the next chapter."

 

Am in total agreement with above statement. This issue has been addressed many times in these forums and it appears that people are just willing to pay anything an escort asks for. Well, I am not and happy to see that other well respected individuals (NY Observer) feel the same way.

[Boston Guy]

Yes, and I also find it a little amusing when escorts or clients say they find awkward or demeaning to negotiate price. This to me is simply a sign of youth and inexperience, or at least inexperience in business... and hiring an escort is, after all, a business transaction.

 

The world of business is built upon negotiation. If you walk into Woolworths, you're not going to have much luck negotiating the price of a bottle of shampoo. But if you want to hire a lawyer or a consultant or an architectural firm or whomever, the process will usually involve bidding and negotiating on the basis of services to be provided and the price for those services.

 

And for those who say that it's different with escorts because they are providing 'personal' escorts, I say phooey... if an architect spends two days or two months on a project or a consultant flies in for two days of consultation, they're both providing personal services and being compensated for their time.

 

Negotiation done correctly can help make both parties more satisfied; escorts who see it as demeaning or offensive are missing out.

[Traveller]

I've been to dinner with a fair number of the escorts I've seen more than a few times (and with Matt Top it was after the first and only time), and although I'll usually (but not always) pay for dinner, there are never any additional charges; however, this fact is made very clear upfront. And certainly the commuting time charge is bullshit. This time should be factored into his rate for an outcall.

 

Later.

 

 

PS. Are his initials TS?

[Guest JustANametoPlay]

As always Boston you make great points. Howevr I would point out that it is a matter of supply and demand. Many escorts will charge what themarket will bear. However you have the right idea, you as the client can say, nope sorry no can do. Now if it is an escort that doesn't have a problem getting clients, and is making enough money otherwise then they may or may not say OK.

 

the issue beomes how much a client may wish to hire a particular escort. As I have said before, there are certain guys (such as Jake Andrews) who I have lusted after for years. It is really a fantasy. Would I pay more than 200? Probably, but that is the exception and not the rule. Tehre are some truly great guys out there that charge 175 or less.

 

So again, supply and demand. Look at baseball salaries. Is Alex really worth the cash? Proabbaly not, but if I was him would I turn it down, hell no!

[Guest Konga]

>The world of business is built

>upon negotiation.....

>if you want to hire

>a lawyer or a consultant

>or an architectural firm or

>whomever, the process will usually

>involve bidding and negotiating on

>the basis of services to

>be provided and the price

>for those services.

>

 

Yes, but when negotiating with another kind of professional, that person rarely, if ever, has to be concerned with the fact that you might be a cop out to arrest him. I believe that many an escort's unwillingness to negotiate prices stems from their own level of acceptable risk. As escorts, they have every right to uphold a bottomline below which they will not descend for a mere hundred bucks or to please an unknown and especially intractable client. What I've gleened from the escorts who I've spent time with, is that the very notion of haggling, especially from a first time client, is a turn off and raises a flag. Conversely, I've had escorts whom I regularly visit come down on price, or offer more time "off-clock" once we've established a level of trust and familiarity. These are just my own experiences, and I don't pretend to speak for escorts.

 

>And for those who say that

>it's different with escorts because

>they are providing 'personal' services,

>I say phooey... if an

>architect spends two days or

>two months on a project

>or a consultant flies in

>for two days of consultation,

>they're both providing personal services

>and being compensated for their

>time.

 

But again, any other professional doesn't have to face the risk of jail, abuse, or STD's. That doesn't give escorts the right to milk us for all we're worth, but I think it certainly entitles them to a dollar amount below which they will not go.

The money these guys make would seem to make it all worthwhile in our minds (especially since it's our money), but I don't think many of us could lead the lives these young men live or face the possible consequences of unwittingly contracting out to a representative of the law, or worse. I'm sure many an escort wishes you might consider a retraction of your "phooey", as would many an architect had it been directed at them.    K

[Guest dcdave]

To Traveller:

 

His initials are BW. I should have done a review but it was in mid-January, and I don't feel it is timely now.

 

Dave

[Guest Nocturnal]

Well, the time really does start when you get together with the escort. Most escorts charge by the hour. If they do a break on four or eight hours or a full-day, they are not expecting to stay in bed the whole time. A dinner or a night at the theater may be great but this is the way they make their money. I have always paid for time and not just the hour we were together. I also perfer overnights and like going to the movie or a play beforehand. I make things very clear up front. I don't leave room for speculation. For example, if I want to treat a guy to dinner and a play, I will say, "I want to take you to dinner and a play. Afterwards we can spend an hour or two together (or with me all night). I can pay you XX for the night. Is this something you would like to do?" Most guys will not have a problem doing this if you are paying them a reasonable amount. I would never expect an escort to go to dinner with me, then a play, then to my house or a hotel and spend an hour in bed and only pay him for one hour when we actually spent six or seven together.

[Boston Guy]

I agree, when it's that level of time. Sometimes it just makes sense to agree to a price for a longer period of time, like an evening or an overnight.

 

However, when it's an invitation for dinner just before or just after getting together for a short time, it's been my experience that most guys will be happy to go for dinner. If they are busy, they decline and we're both ok with that, too. But one thing you point out shouldn't be forgotten -- it's important that everyone understand upfront what's billable and what's not.

[Boston Guy]

Perhaps. And your point that escorts are involved in a somewhat risky profession is well-taken. But I'm not sure that affects the idea of negotiation much.

 

I do agree with you that it makes sense for escorts to have a bottom-line price; that's sensible for both parties in the negotiation, only the client should start out with a top-dollar amount in his head. It's a bit like going to an auction where, if you don't do this, you suddenly find yourself wondering how in the world you paid $3000 for that green vase.

 

But negotiation doesn't have to be demeaning at all; in fact, it shouldn't be demeaning. And it's often an acknowledgment of the fact that the other person is intelligent and has something valuable to offer.

 

Guys who approach negotiations like used-car salesmen probably don't succeed much. But negotiations approached with tact and respect for the other party, and an attempt to understand what the other party really wants, really can lead to a situation where both parties find themselves quite happy with the end result.

[Guest jizzdepapi]

BW%##@$#$#!!!!

 

excuse me but bw = bill wilson, who along with dr. bob, started AA (alocholics anonymous, for those in denial or poughkeepsie). i'm wondering if bw's request to be paid was really a suggestion to drop a quarter in the basket when it was passed? don't worry; bw doesn't keep this money.

 

could there have been a misunderstanding here?

 

jizz

[Guest davos3]

Having dinner or going to theatre with a friend can be a very pleasant experience. It is nice to have friends to share such pleasant experiences.

 

Having the same experiences with a blind date, or actually someone you are hiring for another event, is chancey at best.

 

If taking an escort to THE PRODUCERS or LE CIRQUE is part of your foreplay, then by all means the gent should charge for his time.

 

Otherwise, cut to the chase without the extras.

 

Where is the dilemma?