Naked Vice Cops

[Bilbo]

Defenders of our morals, hah!

I woke up this morning to some upsetting news on the TV. Of course, I had heard all about Johnny Carson yesterday evening. But the old, unused church with only half a roof but very handsome brick (stone?) walls just blocks from our house had burned in the night. Now, nothing left but those walls. Of course, that was all I knew was left in the first place, but ...

AND the Houston vice cops were defending their practice of stripping all the way naked as part of prostitution stings. (Yes, I will call them stings, though I don't really know enough to know if I am using that word absolutely correctly in a legal sense! - I say that now so that we can maybe minimize some of that kind of criticism in this thread.) Unfortunately, though there had maybe been hints, and though I read the opinion pages of the paper each day, I had been unaware of anyone criticizing them for doing this. Nor was such criticism mentioned this morning. Just that they are doing it and it has helped them arrest a lot of people, etc. I wish that I was braver or less vulnerable, and could lead a groundswell of public opinion - a storm to take this into true controversy! But I'm not.

I guess my question is - besides your comments on the practice - Do any of you other escorts face such bizarre behavior on the part of your local police departments?

[Guest jeffOH]

Vice is doing this in cities across the country. They've been getting naked here in Columbus for several years now. One vice cop was reassigned after he was found to have actually allowed a female prostitute to give him head. The gettin' naked practice was temporarily halted by the vice squad commander, but was then reinstated when the chief returned from an extended vacation.

 

They've defended this tactic by saying that since the prostitutes have gotten smarter in knowing what NOT to say--they have to get their trust by vice getting naked and the prostitute initiating sexual contact.

 

When I was arrested last year, the cop got naked and when I was within inches of giving him head, he said he had to use the bathroom--jumped up grabbed his clothes and ran into the bathroom just as his buddies who'd been next door burst in with guns drawn...just like on COPS.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

>AND the Houston vice cops were defending their practice of

>stripping all the way naked as part of prostitution stings.

>(Yes, I will call them stings, though I don't really know

>enough to know if I am using that word absolutely correctly in

>a legal sense! -

 

Not to worry Bilbo, you're on solid enough ground here as 'sting' has no special connotation in legal lingo. I think you are thinking of entrapment which is imbued with legalsitic definition.

[Bilbo]

You're right, Tampa. That's the word I was thinking. But it was early in the morning. Personally, I think that both words apply.

 

Jeff - So, are you suggesting that even with a naked customer it's best to let them initiate anything which might be construed as sex? And, am I correct in assuming that this would include kissing? I don't think I'm going to change my practices, really, but perhaps this is something any shy clients should consider if faced with an escort who seems, at first, standoffish.

 

At least, if we help them take their clothes off, it gives us a chance to frisk them for wires.}(

[Guest jeffOH]

Bilbo-

 

>>Jeff - So, are you suggesting that even with a naked customer it's best to let them initiate anything which might be construed as sex?<<

 

Yes.

 

>>And, am I correct in assuming that this would include kissing?<<

 

No. It must be the escort who is initiating the "sexual contact". If the client doesn't initiate sexual contact first, perhaps insisting upon a full-on, open mouth kiss with tongue would be one way to determine if the client is really a cop.

[Guest zipperzone]

>No. It must be the escort who is initiating the "sexual

>contact". If the client doesn't initiate sexual contact first,

>perhaps insisting upon a full-on, open mouth kiss with tongue

>would be one way to determine if the client is really a cop.

 

With a vice squad as corrupt as the one your describing, how would you ever prove that it was not you that initiated the contact?

 

It would be your word against theirs and I don't think you'd stand a chance in court.

[Bilbo]

From Charlie Fuller, Executive Directo fo the International Association of Undercover Officers,

"I can assure you that these undercover officers don't want to get naked, but they don't have a choice."

I often think that if there's a job no-one wants to do, that's a good sign that it shouldn't be done.

[Guest jeffOH]

>With a vice squad as corrupt as the one your describing, how

>would you ever prove that it was not you that initiated the

>contact?

>

>It would be your word against theirs and I don't think you'd

>stand a chance in court.

 

Unless of course vice has videotaped it all, as they often do.

[Lewis H]

I may be uninformed here, but isn't it true that you can ask a person directly if he's a cop, and if they lie and arrest you later, it's grounds for entrapment?

[Boston Guy]

Many people believe this myth to be true.

 

Unfortunately, many people are uninformed. Police have absolutely no requirement to tell the truth in such situations.

 

BG

[Guest zipperzone]

>>With a vice squad as corrupt as the one your describing,

>how

>>would you ever prove that it was not you that initiated the

>>contact?

>>

>>It would be your word against theirs and I don't think you'd

>>stand a chance in court.

>

>Unless of course vice has videotaped it all, as they often

>do.

>

But then they would just "loose" the tape or claim the sting was not taped. I can't imagine ever believing a vice dick.

[Guest jeffOH]

>>I can't imagine ever believing a vice dick.<<

 

Unfortunately we don't live in that sort of world. Sadly, ours is one where a vice cop's word would most likely be believed over that of a prostitute.

[Guest Merlin]

JeffOH, can you think of any ways that escorts and clients can protect themselves? Was there any thing leading up the the arrest that you now think could have alerted you? In setting up the meeting, did the cop insist on specific descriptions of the services to be performed?

[Athan]

Here is my advice on this subject:

 

Escorts: You are getting paid for your time and your time alone. If the "client" talks forever and never initiates "sexual contact" even if he is naked, let it be. You will still get paid. The client must always make the first "sexual contact" if that is to occur, otherwise the escort is just there to keep him company. This means, until YOUR cock is in HIS mouth, he could be vice. Never talk about sexual activites to be preformed unless you are in the middle of doing something sexual. They could be recording your words. Never hint toward sexual activities like "would you like to go to my room?", "Would you like to get on the bed?", "let's get naked and preform all kinds of illegal acts!" (hehehehe)(to me this includes describing ones genitals and sexual preferences, most escorts advertise their "stats" and preferences on their ads...READ THEM...and escorts should not discuss their genitals to a potential client...they are also potential vice). Never talk about money, rates should be discussed before the meeting ever occurs. NEVER give a different rate if the client just wants to have lunch...this implies that you are not charging for your time but for some specific act done behind closed doors (that is why it costs $300 per hour if someone wants to just have dinner with me and nothing else...it's not because i am greedy ). Never let the money exchange hands, ask them to leave it somewhere and you can pick it up on your way out. And, of course, money should be saved for last, after everything has gone smoothly.

 

 

Clients: Since a large number of escorts are reviewed here, you pretty much know that they are not vice trying to catch "john's" so don't worry about it so much (unless of course you hired someone who has never been reviewed and you have never met or heard of). Therefore, it is your responsibilty to initial everything, at least for the first meeting. Never email or talk on the phone about anything graphic or sexual in nature (if you don't know if an escort is a top or bottom, read there reviews or their ad...most escorts advertise what they do without being graphic about it) until after the first meeting, after which the client escort relationship can being to become more open and trusting. NEVER ASK THE ESCORT TO TRUST YOU IN ANYWAY. This is a business and it is not about trust. We do not know you from Adam, so to be insulted that an escort doesn't trust you after just walking in your door is rediculous. Also, to ask to be trusted is to wave a red flag saying: "I am trying to scam you!" The best way to trust and gain trust is to act responisibly and make sure your actions are not endangering or could be precieved as endangering to others. Please, do not thrust money into the escorts face insisting they take it from your hand. I personally will refuse it and ask you to put it down somewhere. Besides, it just makes things seem cheesy. It is much classier to just have the escorts money sitting out where they can see (or in an envelope or as one of my kinder clients did and I thought was so sweet, in a thank you card) and quietly gesture to him that it is for him (this can be done before or after the meeting).

 

I have no legal experience to back all this up, it is just how I think and how I choose to protect myself. Please, if anyone knows better and can offer better advice, I am open to it!

[Guest jeffOH]

>JeffOH, can you think of any ways that escorts and clients

>can protect themselves? Was there any thing leading up the the

>arrest that you now think could have alerted you? In setting

>up the meeting, did the cop insist on specific descriptions of

>the services to be performed?

 

Well, I was somewhat apprehensive because there were some red flags that went up, but I attributed it to the nervousness of the "client". He'd told me that he was recently divorced and had always thought about doing something with a guy, but never had.

 

He didn't ask hardly any questions on the phone, other than my rate and whether or not it was full service. It was in person that he again asked my rate. I asked him what he had in mind and he said that he "liked to be taken care of...".

 

Athan gave some great advice. If they can't get you to play their silly sex/money word games, they must get you "in the act".

 

Also, he wouldn't kiss. I'm assuming that they won't go so far as to tongue kiss in a sting, so perhaps insisting upon them planting a big one would be helpful.

[trilingual]

Hmm. Naked vice cops with big hard-ons sprawled on a bed. And we live in an age of digital cameras. Just speculating, but maybe it would be helpful if you took a picture of your naked and aroused "client" before getting it on with him? For your keepsake album?

 

Maybe some of you guys could expound a little more on this thought, or how you might be able to accomplish this. I'm not sure if I'd recommend doing this secretly, as opposed to openly. But it's something I'd think about.

[+ Lucky]

There you go again, making assumptions!

Vice cops only have big dicks in the movies, silly!

[TedLinden]

Another escort and I were recently talking about the fact the neither one of us has heard much about stings in SF. Before I moved I hadn't heard much about them in NYC either. We figured that the vice squads are probably busy with other stuff to deal with gay escorts.

[JamesK840]

And they only get hard when they've shot somebody...

[JamesK840]

Location matters and so does in vs. out...

 

As has been mentioned in other threads, they are working in the Hollywood area, and have busted guys off of Craig's list here.

 

Because of the desire to videotape and have a controlled environment, outcalls are inherently more dangerous to the escort worried about getting busted then incalls. On top of worries about protecting the 'pig in a blanket' the cops could end up crossing out of their jurisdiction (i.e. Hollywood's nothing better to do LAPD crossing into WeHo's--rainbow flag logo on their cars--Sheriffs).

 

So the moral... Escorts should offer deep discounts on incall! :9

[Guest]

I agree that for the escort's sake, the escort should insist on a big wet kiss before starting anything. On those rare occasions where, as a client, I hire an escort who isn't well-reviewed here, I also insist on a big wet kiss from the get-go. As for the cops getting naked, I wonder what would happen if the escort took pictures of him, then plastered pictures of the naked cop around town with the words "Cleveland [or insert the town name] Vice" underneath...