The Bridge

[Guest zipperzone]

I'm surprised that no one has commented on the horror story coming out of Minniapolis. I can't think of anything more frightening than being on a bridge that is tumbling down.

 

They are only reporting about 4 confirmed deaths at this point but I fear the toll must be much higher with all those cars submerged.

 

I feel so sorry for the families who can do nothing but standby and wait for what most certainly will not be good news.

 

And..... get ready for a huge corruption scandal - something had to have been very wrong for the bridge to get to this state.

[BgMstr4u]

I agree with you entirely, ZZ. What a tragedy to the trusting people and their families who used this bridge in the faith that it was safe. My heart goes out to each and every one of them, particularly to those lost to the treacherous waters of the Mississippi now that the search has been halted for the night.

 

We are in for a long overdue review of infrastructure issues. I just hope (but don't really think) that it will be more than a platform for political posturing.

 

But probably not that much will be accomplished in the end. There's nothing less exciting to a politician of any stripe than repairing something someone else built years ago. Much better promise something shiny and new and hope that nothing goes wrong on your watch.

 

Many of the problems with the New Orleans levees were widely known for years before Katrina and not much really substantial except studies was done, by anybody at any level. I suspect we will find the same here. Studies were done and then buried. Unfortunately the US is a culture of novelty, not of prudence. This has a price.

 

There is a fairly frightening article in the NY Times today that deserves reading:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/us/01cnd-engineer.html?ref=science

Although the Times pushes its usual "we're not spending enough" line, if you read to the end, you will see that in fact, a disturbing number of the very engineers entrusted with this work in the first place get it wrong. Add to that sloppy contractors. And government types who would rather get it done than get it right so they can get a fast picture in the paper. A couple of misplaced bolts here, an incomplete inspection there, and you have a bridge collapse in Connecticut, a tunnel collapse in Boston, a NY State Thruway bridge collapse, all of which have already happened.

 

Here's a fascinating video report of a 2006 report on this bridge noting "fatigue" in the bridge structure:

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S156551.shtml?cat=1&v=1

 

All the money in the world won't make a difference if people won't do their jobs with pride and competence and if the governments that pay for the work don't insist on careful and well-done work. Instead there's massive ass covering by everyone involved. Just watch. When this gets done, who will even remember there's a bridge that needs to be rebuilt? The lawsuits will churn on from now till kingdom come. Unfortunately, IMHO, liability law is real arena of competence in the US now.

[+ purplekow]

IMHO, liability law is real arena of competence

>in the US now.

 

I agreed with everything you said up to this last line. Liability law in the US is a joke. The only ones making out on the current state of torts in the US are the lawyers. They collect 1/3 of every dollar awarded plus their winning clients reimburse them for expenses. Most cases don't come down to finding real culpability, if there is any but rather finding the deepest pockets from which to extract the largest penalty. The whole system needs an overhaul just as this bridge did, and just as with this bridge it wont happen until the system collapses and people are seriously hurt.

 

I have never seen a purplekow;

I never hope to see one;

I can tell you anyhow;

I'd rather see than be one

 

Help there is a purplekow in my mirror

[Louis]

I guess what I am going to say will make things political. Lots of money for war....none or little for fixing bridges.

[Guest ncm2169]

Reporting for duty from here in Minneapolis. :-(

 

First, it would appear that for now the national news services are doing a fairly good job of capturing the scene here. When this story goes off page one (probably by next week), I'll probably jump in and post updates on the situation. :*

 

FYI, I am located about 35 miles northeast of the site and fortunately have had no reason to go anywhere near there, nor have I talked to anyone who's actually been there, since the collapse. My intent is to wait until Monday, when most of the gawkers have had their fill, and make a trip to the site and take some pics - it is, after all, a huge historical event.

 

There are literally thousands of local residents who are waiting for some word about loved ones who are unaccounted for, and they/we will likely wait several more days because the recovery logistics are absolutely treacherous. However, very soon the number of confirmed fatalities will grow to about the number of currently unaccounted for - a best case scenario right now would be if the total fatalities number less than 100. That would be a bloody fucking miracle, because under normal rush hour conditions that bridge would have had upwards of 500 vehicles on it - 8 lanes (four lanes each way) at 6:03 p.m. on a weekday. The reason far fewer vehicles were on it when it collapsed is that for several weeks scheduled surface repair construction had closed 4 lanes (two each way), and much traffic was self-detoured until September when the work was scheduled to be complete.

 

There's not likely to be any corruption uncovered (Minnesota government for the most part is "squeaky clean"); however one can hope that this disaster will spark a national dialog about the urgent need for infrastructure rehabilitation in this entire country. It's not just bridges, it's dams and water supplies and school buildings and transit and waste water treatment, among other things. Assuming we all want those basic services in order to function as a society, we are going to have to pay for them, or we're going to slide into the status of a third world country. As U.S. Senator from Minnesota Amy Klobuchar said today, "In America, a bridge shouldn't just fall down."

 

As for rebuilding, as all news reports have noted, I-35W is a major traffic artery in the Twin Cities, and the Republican National Convention will be held here in 2008. We'll see. }(

 

Wish us luck as we dig out. I'll make future reports as I see fit. :o Or, maybe some of my fellow Minneapolitans who lurk here will jump in here with their observations.

[+ deej]

It will be interesting comparing your local impressions with the news broadcasts over the coming days.

 

They've all stationed their anchors in Mpls for tomorrow's "heartfelt" broadcasts, complete with over-the-shoulder views of the bridge. Bleh.

 

Your man on the street POV will be far more interesting to hear.

[doctordoctor]

thanks for that info....

 

since you're in the area, I gotta ask what is that other bridge always shown in the aerials right next to the collapsed one?....a RR bridge?....can it be used as an alternate?....

 

thanks again

[Guest novabear22031]

It is looking like the deaths will be far lower thankfully. I agree with deej, I look forward to your local reports. I am sick and tired of the way the national media "plays" some stories. Like the story here in Virginia about our abusive driver fees.

[Guest zipperzone]

>It is looking like the deaths will be far lower thankfully.

 

That has to be a miracle - I find it hard to understand, given the number of submerged cars, but if it turns out to be true, then it's very good news

 

>agree with deej, I look forward to your local reports. I am

>sick and tired of the way the national media "plays" some

>stories.

 

I am so sick of CNN trying to sensationalize every aspect of every sound bite. Talk about a bunch of Ghouls.

 

>Like the story here in Virginia about our abusive

>driver fees.

 

Well if the reports are true perhaps the coverage will lead to a better law. Can you really be fined $2500 for exceeding the speed limit by only 20 mph? On a good road with a safe car and light traffic - where's the harm?

[Guest novabear22031]

>

>Well if the reports are true perhaps the coverage will lead to

>a better law. Can you really be fined $2500 for exceeding the

>speed limit by only 20 mph? On a good road with a safe car

>and light traffic - where's the harm?

>

 

At the risk of going way off topic; they are not fines - but fees payable over a 2 to 3 year span, that only apply to residents of Virginia. 20mph+ in most states is reckless driving!

 

The harm is the law is the law. Following your logic, what harm is there in taking a candy bar from the local 7-11? If you don't like the laws, then vote for people to change them....

[Rick Munroe]

>I guess what I am going to say will make things political.

>Lots of money for war....none or little for fixing bridges.

 

$600 billion for Bush's unnecessary war, $1.35 trillion for Bush's tax cuts, $25 billion in farm subsidies to mega-farms which don't need it...meanwhile, we're $1.6 trillion behind in infrastructure investment, according to the American Society of Civil Engineers.

 

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/8/2/125940/9440

[Guest novabear22031]

From your lips to God's eras. There is so much that needs to be done here in the states. But it seems that we forgot the first lesson in "war"; and that is to win the hearts and minds of the people. You do that by providing the basics of life - food, water, and power.

[Guest ncm2169]

Tonight's update from Minneapolis:

 

First and most important, the projections of number of casualties continue to decline, and unless there are some major tracking discrepancies (I wouldn't rule it out), the total fatalities are likely to be in the double digits, which as I observed in my post last night, would be an un-fucking-believable miracle.

 

There are a few reasons for this - first, as I noted in my last post, the bridge was undergoing surface repair construction and the number of lanes was cut from 8 to 4 thereby reducing the number of cars substantially. Second, a good portion of the total span that collapsed - perhaps as much as 20% or more of bridge - was over land and not the river itself; for some reason many of those in cars which fell onto land - albeit a 50 to 60 foot fall - were able to escape from their vehicles.

 

The rescue/recovery efforts continue to be hampered by the unbelievable mess in the river itself - the "good news" today was that divers were able to check out a grand total of 5 submerged vehicles (there are 50 or more estimated such vehicles), and had pronounced four of them empty. SONAR and GPS technology provide a good roadmap for the divers, but their visibility is less than two feet and as one diver said, "We're taking the SONAR/GPS guidance and basically using 'the braille method' from there."

 

Meanwhile, the ass-covering and blame-game exercises are, if nothing else, a diversion from the waiting game. First it was revealed today that the Minnesota Department of Transportation had a long "emotional" internal debate just last year (2006) about how to deal with serious disrepair issues with the bridge. Later it was reported that this bridge was one of the last built in the US while at least two "old" - no longer operative - engineering guidelines (circa 1967) were still in place, i.e., there was "no redundancy" in the bridge construction, meaning that there was no failsafe protection if one part of the bridge collapsed - it was an all or nothing deal (unlike a suspension bridge, apparently); also that "metal fatigue" was not then (as it is now) recognized/accepted as a rational/measurable factor in determining the longevity of bridge construction.

 

Btw, the other bridge immediately adjacent to the collapsed bridge shown in aerial photos is a much older 4-lane bridge which is fortunately is able to handle some of the over flow.

 

Oh, and of course, First Lady Laura Bush was here visiting today, and George is expected Saturday or Sunday (I forget which). ;-)

[Louis]

I have watched two local TV stations report on the bridge disaster. Yes we recieve two MNPLS TV stations in Fort Frances. The reporters have done an excellent job, and none of the ones that I have seen on TV have come to any conclusion as to why the bridge collapsed.

Interestingly enough I chatted with a trucker who drove over the bridge shortly before it collapsed. Everything seemed fine to him.

It is very surprising that so few people have died.

[Guest zipperzone]

>Oh, and of course, First Lady Laura Bush was here visiting

>today,

 

Yes I saw her on TV. She was wearing sunglasses. I thought that was rude and disrespectfull. I don't care how hot it is or how much glare there is, or how sensitive her eyes may be, If you're there to offer condolances to people, TAKE OFF YOUR FUCKING SUNGLASSES so as people can look you in the eye.

 

>and George is expected Saturday or Sunday (I forget which). ;-)

 

That will be a big help, won't it. (I think it is Saturday) And how economical of them to send Air Force One on TWO trips instead of one. (Unless she took the bus). Why couldn't Laura wait and go with him? (Perhaps they are not speaking)

 

Oh well what the hell - it's only the taxpayers money.

[Guest zipperzone]

>At the risk of going way off topic; they are not fines - but

>fees payable over a 2 to 3 year span, that only apply to

>residents of Virginia. 20mph+ in most states is reckless

>driving!

 

That's OK - it was my topic so I don't mind.

 

I agree, 20 over the limit if you're driving through a town where the limit is 25 - that would be reckless.

 

But on an interstate where the limit is 60 and you're doin' 80 - reckless? Not in my book. You'd probably just be going with the flow.

 

>The harm is the law is the law. Following your logic, what

>harm is there in taking a candy bar from the local 7-11?

 

Poor comparison - not the same thing at all. But I am glad to hear that you are such a law abiding citizen.

[Karl-G]

Number of Casualties

 

The number of casualties may be quite low. Although media continue to carry "100 injured," there are only 28 in hospitals and only five are critical. The others were examined and released.

 

As to the number of cars on the bridge at the time of collapse. The lanes were reduced to two each way, as NCM reports. But that means that four full lanes of rush hour traffic approaching the bridge had to squeeze down to two. As traffic squeezes, the speed drops down to stop-and-go. By the time you get to the two lanes, traffic is barely moving. And once it does move, it is not bumper-to-bumper. It is open and spread out. And the evidence seems clear that this is what happened on the bridge. If you watch the video of the bridge collapsing from the security camera, there is lots of open space between cars. It is not bumper to bumper and the bridge was not filled with cars. An estimate of 100 - 150 cars on the bridge, made by the sheriff again this morning, seems way off the mark. Maybe 40. And 30 of those cars can be seen still standing on bridge surface.

 

Google news just reported that families of five drivers are waiting for some word. So far, a Somali mother and her young daughter have been mentioned, as well as the one construction worker who fell. Surely the sheriff or someone has a list of names of persons not yet accounted for.

[Minneapolis]

I want to thank everyone who has voiced their concerns over the tragedy in Minneapolis. I live just 3 blocks from the bridge collapse, and the attention is overwhelming. Visitors are coming everyday from all over the globe to witness and give condolences to our situation. This is no where near 9-11 in regards to an "enemy against American society", but the genuine concern over fellow mankind is heartfelt. I am relieved beyond belief that the casualty count is so low. If you were to see the fallen bridge, you would be convinced that the death count would be in the 100's.

 

Earlier that day I had to take a detour around the bridge because of the road construction and thought to myself "In just a couple of weeks I'm sure the university ave exit will open up and this inconvenience will be over" I'd trade in 100 years of inconvenience to bring back the folks that dropped to their death while driving home to love ones during rush hour.

 

Cell phones went dead all across the city. Text messaging was the only way to communicate if you were ok. I think I hit my text messaging limit about 30 minutes after the collapse. If this was what NY was like on 9-11, I can't imagine the panic that overtook you folks.

 

The bridge will be rebuilt, life will go on, this will be in our history--but I will always remember that no matter what happens in our country (our world no less), that humanity will continue to reach out to those in need. Thanks again for your support!

[Rod Hagen]

There's no way I could even guess the number of times I've been over that bridge. What a horrible horrible unthinkable thing to happen.

[Rick Munroe]

Fred Phelps is going to stage protests at the funerals of victims of the bridge collapse, because God's hatred for gays is what caused the disaster to happen: http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/node/6004

[Guest zipperzone]

>Fred Phelps is going to stage protests at the funerals of

>victims of the bridge collapse, because God's hatred for gays

>is what caused the disaster to happen:

>http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/node/6004

 

It's about time someone "fixed" that bastard, once and for all.