Gayness?

[+ Gar1eth]

OK--1st let me say that I truly belief that sexual partner preference is to a large extent genetically programmed. Although there are certainly other factors. For example female fetuses exposed to androgens--and I believe that this observation has not been disproved-have a tendency to be more tomboyish--I don't know if there were any studies saying that a larger proportion of these females turned out to be lesbians or not.

 

But we all know that genes do not work alone--that genes interact with the environment. So then there is the discarded theory-I think-that boys become homosexual by living in households with absent/passive fathers and domineering mothers.

 

But when I think back on my childhood--that's what it seems is the social dynamic in my household growing up. My mother was not Mommy Dearest by any means--but she does have a stronger personality than my father. She was the disciplinarian. Until my early teen years, my father routinely travelled several days a week and wasn't at home. I am also closer to my mother than my father.

 

So I was wondering-how much of the readership would say their mother's personality was more forceful than their father's.

 

Gman

[seattlebottom]

I grew up in a very traditional household. Our father worked long hours to provide for us and our mother took care of everything that happened in the house. The end result was that my mom, who had a very strong personality to begin with, literally made decisions for the entire household without consulting anyone else. She decided where we lived, who our friends could be, where we shopped, what we wore, what we ate...we would always joke that in a former life she must have worked in a Nazi concentration camp. My father always went along with everything she said and did. He hates conflict and would rather not have argued with her.

 

Whether my family dynamics led me to be gay I have no idea. All I can report is that I've known that I'm gay since I was 4 years old. I've never questioned it, never been hounded by it and never resisted it.

[kjun]

Very interesting topic. I once read a book, written by two psychiatrist, who theorized that our sexual preferences were programed at conception. At that point we are programed as to exactly what attributes we will most thoroughly enjoy in our sexual partners. This is down to sex, looks, habits, etc. This book was filled with reports of studied the authors & others had conducted. Much of it was related to explaining the cause of pedophilia. I found the theory interesting, but it is not a fun read because it was written like a technical report rather than as a non-fiction novel. If anyone is interested in the topic, send a private and I'll find the book and supply the name and ISBN.

 

In relating to sexual escapades I like the young, hot-body, 23 to 30 y/o. Leather is a big turn-off. I have a beard but body hair on my partner, other than the underarms and crotch, is a big turn-off. From writings on here I know others are opposite in their turn-ons and turn-offs. Some are freaked by those with disabilities and others excited by this.

 

If any others have ideas about why we lust after the type we do I, for one, would be interested.

 

the Cajun

[Guest RandyRon]

I grew up during the 50s when almost all households had a working father and a housewife mother. In all the cases I remember, the mother ran the household and took care of discipline and most other matters concerning the children. So if this type of mothering causes gayness, I sure missed out on making it with a lot of my friends.

 

In my case, I would say that although Mom did most of the disciplining, Dad was the dominate personality. If Mom said no, I had a good chance of changing her mind but when Dad said no, it was forget it time.

 

I think I was gay at birth. I remember being attracted to men even before the first grade and I don't ever remember being attracted to women.

[+ Charlie]

My parents didn't fit the supposedly pathological model at all. My mother and father were very much equal partners as a couple and as parents, even though they looked like the mythic 1950s working father and housewife mother (my mother did go back to work when I started high school, but she still cleaned the house and made the meals). My father was very athletic, my mother slight and feminine. Both were always present in my life, and both were quiet but affectionate and supportive. As a child I had marginal sissy interests (I liked to dance, preferred reading to sports, etc.), and both parents were somewhat uneasy about it, but they defended me against more censorious family members. Although they had no gay friends and were both politically conservative, each had one obviously gay male relation of whom they were fond. I became conscious that I was attracted to men when I was 13, became sexually active (was I ever!!) at 17, and came out to my parents at 19. Untypically, my father was probably more comfortable with it than my mother, but both accepted it, even though they couldn't understand it. I discovered only recently that my mother continued for years to hope, against all evidence, that I would marry and have children, but she never mentioned it to me. Both of my parents had a good relationship with my life partner.

[Guest carter07]

As the gay father of a gay son (and a straight son), my feeling is that sexual orientation is programmed at birth but that cultural/enviromental factors can influence how that orientation expresses itself. Growing up on a farm, I had both parents at home and my father was dominant although my mother generally was equal in that home/work situation. But I was attracted to males from my earliest memories. I remember "playing doctor" with a neighbor girl and examining her vagina but no particular arousal. But when a neighbor boy and I swam in a nearby creek his naked body was arousing. I never really understood what this attraction meant until many years later and have lived a totally closeted life, with pain but not too much.

 

Our younger son came out to us in college and we've never talked about his sexuality in any specifics, so I can't say much about his orientation. But the latest research of which I'm aware suggests a neurobiological basis for orientation (and perhaps other characteristics), that orientation becomes "wired" in the fetus through hormonal changes in the mother near birth. It is a subject that requires a great deal more research.

[+ Gar1eth]

>As the gay father of a gay son (and a straight son), my

>feeling is that sexual orientation is programmed at birth but

>that cultural/enviromental factors can influence how that

>orientation expresses itself. Growing up on a farm, I had

>both parents at home and my father was dominant although my

>mother generally was equal in that home/work situation. But I

>was attracted to males from my earliest memories. I remember

>"playing doctor" with a neighbor girl and examining her vagina

>but no particular arousal. But when a neighbor boy and I swam

>in a nearby creek his naked body was arousing. I never really

>understood what this attraction meant until many years later

>and have lived a totally closeted life, with pain but not too

>much.

>

>Our younger son came out to us in college and we've never

>talked about his sexuality in any specifics, so I can't say

>much about his orientation. But the latest research of which

>I'm aware suggests a neurobiological basis for orientation

>(and perhaps other characteristics), that orientation becomes

>"wired" in the fetus through hormonal changes in the mother

>near birth. It is a subject that requires a great deal more

>research.

 

 

 

Ok--some more about me. I didn't want to reveal too much initially in case no one liked this topic.

 

I have a brother whom as far as I know isn't gay. Married with children. He is older than I am by around 10 years. My understanding is that when he was born, my father had a different job and would not have been travelling as much. So I don't know if that might have made any difference. Also isn't there a hypothesis--out there something about younger brothers with an older 1st born male brother are more likely to be gay?

 

I believe, but am not entirely sure about this, my mother was placed on hormones during her pregnancy with me to try to prevent a spontaneous abortion. This would not have been at conception obviously.

 

I have a memory--don't know whether it is true or not--of being about 5 or 6 years old--in kindergarden--being in the boy's bathroom. Another classmate of mine came in and I remember thinking he was cute. Then I also remember telling myself that "boys dont think other boys are cute" and not really thinking much about the boys in my classes for years after this thought.

 

I still remember after that being attracted to handsome guys on TV--especially muscular guys--like the guys who drank Granny Yoakum's potion in the movie Lil Abner or even Dash Riprock from the Beverly Hillbillies (I looked for a picture of Dash online but couldn't find one).

 

Also and this is embarrassing and without the somewhat confidentiality of the internet, I don't know if I would reveal normally, but when I was younger--and I won't go through all the details- but too summarize--I occasionally had dreams where I was female and was seducing men. These started when I was around 5 or 6--and continued I think up to adolescence. In adolescence everytime, I came to a critical point in the dream, I would have a wet dream--and I pretty much woke up from the stimulus of ejaculation.

 

Now I really don't think I am fated to be transgendered. I don't really have any desire to put on make-up, wear a dress. I definitely don't have any desire for surgery to remove my--well since I am talking technically, penis and have a fake, again technical vagina made.

 

I mean with the dreams it did cross my mind about being transgendered--but I think a better interpretation might be that while I am not the most butch guy--and possibly have some female tendencies--that as a youngster I had no idea what being gay meant. And the only context I could see for being attracted to a male was as a female.

 

As an addendum to the above when I was in 4th or 5th grade my parents told me that gays were people with a hormone imbalance (my question had been in response to a joke my brother had made that I didn't understand) but didn't actually tell me how the imbalance influenced actions--also as an aside, I was so naive at that point that I still didn't really know about intercourse)

 

 

Well now I have revealed a lot about myself--hope not too many of you are saying "psycho".

 

Gman

[Charlus]

Hey, Gareth, thanks for revealing so much about yourself -- that takes courage, even under the cloak of anonymity.

 

I'm not sure what I can really contribute here in regard to parents' effects on one's being gay. My mother's and father's personalities are [or were, since their dead] so complex, their interactions with each other and with me so difficult to sum up or put down in words, that I can't see how I can say much about how they might have hypothetically affected my sexuality. But I can say that they CAN'T be reduced to dominating mother, passive father. The standard paradigm simply does not work here.

 

I am totally gay, have never been attracted to women, even in dreams. And I know that I had, what I now would call, sexual fantasies about men from a very early age -- back as far as I can remember -- age 5 or so. And I got erections as a result, well before puberty. I will say here that I, as an adult, and long after my father's death, have had suspicions that he had covert homosexual tendencies or "interests." But this may be entirely irrelevant to what "caused" me to be gay. As someone said, an immense amount of research needs to be done.

[+ Charlie]

My partner was the oldest of four brothers; the two older brothers were homosexual, the two younger ones heterosexual. There are various conceivable explanations, both biological and environmental, for the difference, but no satisfactory answer is likely to be found. And for every anecdotal case like this, I also know of counterexamples (only one sibling out of many is gay, the youngest rather than the oldest sibling is gay, etc., etc.). The probability that homosexuality is caused by some easily detected pattern of environmental causes seems to me to be infinitessimal, since every individual grows up in incredibly complex, unique circumstances, that are impossible to adequately document. Perhaps scientific research will discover a definitive biological cause, but my fear is that social engineers--not to mention alarmed heterosexual parents--will then try to manipulate reproduction to eliminate future generations of homosexuals. I happen to think that would diminish the human race.

 

I'm not trying to sideline the topic, because I enjoy reading here about other people's experiences, and it's interesting to speculate on why we are what we are, but since we are not able to do anything about the causes now (if we wanted to, which I don't), I think it's generally more important to figure out how to live well with the results.

[+ purplekow]

There is no simple explanation either genetic or environmental which totally explains sexual orientation. There are cases of identical twins growing up in the same household and one twin is gay and the other straight. In theory, these children would be identical genetically and have as close as possible to the same upbringing as infants and toddlers and yet the results are markedly different.

 

My personal belief is that there is a genetic dimmer switch which can be turned by a variety of factors in utero and ex utero. So there may be a predisposition to being gay, which is stronger or weaker depending on other genetic influences and then enviromental influences. What attracts us to different types is partly species specific, i.e. across all human cultural boundaries facial symmetry is always considered more attractive and the more symmetry there is, the more attractive the individual; partly imprinted as a child, those with physical qualities similiar to our caretakers are usually more attractive to us; partly hormonal, damn those pheromones; and partly personal and acquired tastes, those of us attracted to Superman types may have had different tastes and experiences than those of us attracted to the Abercrombie and Fitch models.

 

In any case, sexual attractiveness has many factors not the least of which is the level of intoxication and the lateness of the hour. Beer goggles anyone?

[Guest skrubber]

No way

[seaboy4hire]

Found this on yahoo a few weeks back. I haven't watched the whole thing but for those who haven't seen it yet you might find it interesting. http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/68/gay_or_straight Enjoy.

 

Hugs,

Greg

[email protected]

http://seaboy4hire.tripod.com New page for reviews http://www.daddysreviews.com/newest.php?who=greg_seattle Los Angeles June 28, 2007 One day only!CHICAGO June 29-July 2, 2007

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/3307/dsc05257be3.jpg

[Guest EWC]

All of these questions are based upon the assumption that gays and straights are different. People develop tastes for different things. Some men prefer blonds, some brunettes, som slim hipped lithe young things and some large people. Some prefer men and some women of all shapes, colors. I don't like onions. I have tried them many times over the years in many forms. People tell me that I "should" try them because they are delicious. I have, and I don't find them so. Is this a genetic predisposition? I doubt it. People have wildly different levels of libido, both gay & straight. Why is it so difficult to believe that people are sexual, and that we develop different tastes in what arouses us? This reminds me of the old observation about what the Nazi's and Jews had in common. Both believed that the Jews were different.

[+ Gar1eth]

>All of these questions are based upon the assumption that

>gays and straights are different. People develop tastes for

>different things. Some men prefer blonds, some brunettes, som

>slim hipped lithe young things and some large people. Some

>prefer men and some women of all shapes, colors. I don't like

>onions. I have tried them many times over the years in many

>forms. People tell me that I "should" try them because they

>are delicious. I have, and I don't find them so. Is this a

>genetic predisposition? I doubt it. People have wildly

>different levels of libido, both gay & straight. Why is it so

>difficult to believe that people are sexual, and that we

>develop different tastes in what arouses us? This reminds me

>of the old observation about what the Nazi's and Jews had in

>common. Both believed that the Jews were different.

 

 

 

I think the subject is more fundamental and much more complex than saying in essence (if you'll forgive me for paraphrasing) "people are sexual and like different things"--which is why I started my original post in the 1st place. I mean if this were true, wouldn't more people "be gay" and it wouldn't be thought so much to be an alternative life style. And yes I know that we are making gay strides,and in many ways we are not so alternative anymore.

 

Greg--Seaboy4hire-enclosed a very interesting link to a piece on "60 Minutes". IF anyone is interested, go to his posting and watch it.

 

Gman

[+ purplekow]

We all have different numbers of the taste buds for the basic tastes. We all have greater or lesser concentration of these taste buds on different portions of our tongue. We all chew and eat differently exposing those sites on our tongue to different concentrations of the foods. The number of taste buds is probably

genetic. The location on the tongue are probably genetic and developmental. The chewing and method of eating is learned. Exposure to onion at a young age would influence someone's like or dislike for it. So genetics, embyologic devlopment, culture and learning and exposure all play a role in liking onions. It is not just a matter of taste. Similiarly, sausage, nuts and clams are not just foods we like or dislike for a single reason. So too, sexual preference are complex, multi-faceted and different for all.

[Guest carter07]

If I recall correctly, EWC, there was a study done in Sweden a year or two ago that suggested straights and gays are, in fact, different. As I remember the news story, involuntary responses to sudden noises or other stimuli were applied to both genders and orientations. The eyeblinks and muscle reactions of gay males were closest in response to straight females and gay females were closest to straight males. It was one of those stories that appeared and quickly disappeared during my online news reading.

 

If, indeed, it were as simple as you propose (and I am certain it isn't), then I guess the fundamentalist preachers are correct: being gay is simply a "lifestyle choice."

[Guest EWC]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was either simple or a choice. Rather, with the diversity of tastes between gay males, straight males, gay females and straight females, it seems to me that the impulse sexual can manifest itself in everyone in many different ways, including a preference for same gender coitus.

 

My other point is that if we focus on the idea that we're all born with some level of impulse sexual, and that we would be better off if we concentrated on the similarities between us rather than the differences.

 

If we concentrate on the common needs and try to politely live in proximity I believe that life for everyone would be better. (ie: You have a legal and binding relationship with a person that you share your life with. I would like to be able to to do the same. I don't propose to impose my beliefs or lifestyle preferences on you, nor do I want you to impose your belief or lifestyle preferences on me. I will try to avoid shoving my lifestyle in your face. I would hope you would do the same. I don't even care whether we consider ourselves friends, but would it be possible to live on the same block without screaming at each other. Or, I have a set of manners, morals and beliefs that I would like to teach my children. If you grant me the right and privacy to do so, I would be happy to grant you the same rights.)

 

Given the state of the world, I will grant you that the above approach isn't tried often and in America we seem to prefer confrontation to cooperation, imposition of our beliefs on others loudly and firmly, and the sense that someone has to win and someone has to lose; but I would prefer it to be otherwise. Less tribalism and more unity.

[Guest carter07]

Well said, EWC. Actually, I couldn't agree more with the proposition you state in your third paragraph. My apologies for taking your earlier comment too simplistically. If only we could, to use the cliche, live and let live.

[+ Gar1eth]

> If only we

>could, to use the cliche, live and let live.

 

 

That's all well and good--and in general I am for it. But, and I hate to sound like a conservative, there are slippery slopes. Not everything is "ok", not everything is morally equivalent. The problem, of course, is deciding where the sticking points should be.

 

Sorry for hijacking my own post.

 

Gman

[Rick Munroe]

>This reminds me

>of the old observation about what the Nazi's and Jews had in

>common. Both believed that the Jews were different.

 

According to my father, Jews aren't different...just better.

[Guest]

>As the gay father of a gay son (and a straight son), my

>feeling is that sexual orientation is programmed at birth but

>that cultural/environmental factors can influence how that

>orientation expresses itself. Growing up on a farm, I had

>both parents at home and my father was dominant although my

>mother generally was equal in that home/work situation. But I

>was attracted to males from my earliest memories. I remember

>"playing doctor" with a neighbor girl and examining her vagina

>but no particular arousal. But when a neighbor boy and I swam

>in a nearby creek his naked body was arousing. I never really

>understood what this attraction meant until many years later

>and have lived a totally closeted life, with pain but not too

>much.

>

>Our younger son came out to us in college and we've never

>talked about his sexuality in any specifics, so I can't say

>much about his orientation.

 

Now, I'm really dying of curiosity. If you're gay, why did your son wait until he was in college to come out to you? I wish I had had a gay father so I could have had someone to talk to about my same-sex attractions which suddenly became VERY strong when I turned twelve. Adolescence hit me like a thunderclap. I remember the very second I first became sexually aroused as a 7th grader, upon seeing the shirtless chest of an athletically gifted 9th grader. There was no doubt at that second what I was feeling when I saw his muscular chest and legs. How great it would have been to have a gay Dad I could have talked to about those feelings.

[+ purplekow]

I never really understood what this attraction meant until many years later and have lived a totally closeted life, with pain but not

too much.

>>

 

>Now, I'm really dying of curiosity. If you're gay, why

>did your son wait until he was in college to come out to you?

 

Think he clearly states that he is living a totally closeted life.

 

 

 

I remember the very second I first became

>sexually aroused as a 7th grader, upon seeing the shirtless

>chest of an athletically gifted 9th grader. There was no

>doubt at that second what I was feeling when I saw his

>muscular chest and legs.

 

Just a question, do you have the phone number of the man that 9th grader became?

 

I have never seen a purplekow;

I never hope to see one;

I can tell you anyhow;

I'd rather see than be one

 

Help there is a purplekow in my mirror

[Guest]

Strangely enough, I never really got to know him much. Certainly in the 7th grade, it wouldn't have crossed my mind to approach him. I saw him again at our high school, when I was in the 10th grade and he in the 12th. Although he was a top athletic performer in our junior high school (our jr. high had five levels of short pants which we would wear depending on our athletic abilities--gray, blue, blue satin, gold satin, and black satin. He was the only guy in my three years to wear black satin shorts), he ended up not being a jock in high school. At that time, I had some contact with him in the computer club, but he had a girlfriend dangling around his neck most of the time. His face wasn't exactly the most gorgeous, but I wet-dreamed of that body many nights.

[Guest carter07]

Yes, Chris, I'm totally closeted and the gay son doesn't know I'm gay nor do I think he even suspects because of the limits of my small city. I'm not sure I know when he realized he was gay; just that he came out to us his second year of college. He's lucky, too, because he's been partnered with a guy from that college year ever since, almost 16 years now, and both families are accepting of them as a couple.

 

But you are quite right in saying that it would have been great to have a gay father who could give adult advice to a young guy seeking solace in his sexual identity. But, of course, if homosexuality was accepted as normal for some people, there might not be many gay fathers — men who are fathers because they sought to conrform to the societal norm rather than suffer the social stigma of being who they really are. And, obviously, if homosexuality was an accepted norm, and understand as such, young men probably wouldn't need much counseling from a gay parent because they would be brought up comfortable with who they are.

 

Bottom line: It's still a really screwed up world for some of us.

[noviceny]

i think freud coined the absentee father and overbearing/domineering mother thing, if I remember correctly.

 

In my case I guess it fits quite well in a way.

 

My dad worked alot and traveled but he was with us on weekends and played a big part in our lives. My mother rules the house though and gave more discipline by virtue of the fact that she was there more of the time

 

extremely overprotective but a great mom

 

either way, when I told my dad that I was gay he responded "Was there anything we could have done differently ?" it was funniest and sadest thing he ever said