What do HOA fees get you in NYC?

[studchaser]

My colleague has a place on CPW in the 70s. She pays about 10K per month in HOA. Not worth it, but i think the doormen are unionized.

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central park west is prob most expensive place in the world. There are columbus circle. They must have a mansion. The crazy thing is maintenance fees continue to go up so you cant even plan your future. If ppl stopped making manhattan the end all be all maybe prices would drop. I always wanted to live in the city but not at those prices.

[studchaser]

I think one would have to know a lot more about the history of the building to decide how reasonable or unreasonable the HOA fee is. I lived in a rental building near Lincoln Center that was converted to a co-op in the 1980s, and we new owners were shocked to find out all the things that had to be included in the HOA fee once we had bought our units. I sold it as soon as I legally could. I used to think I would like to retire in Manhattan, but that no longer holds any appeal for me.

.i recently got inbolved in real estate as a side hustle. One?of my instructors was very anti coop imagine paying all that money and at the end of the day your just a tenant with a very long term lease. In some co op buildings you may not be able to sublet and may not be able to allow family members to stay at your place. You kidding me?

[studchaser]

To mikebidude who thumbed me down. It is a fact ny real estate is often sold to many wealthy foreigners who have never set foot in america. Chinese particularly who are wealthy may not be able to own anything in china so they rather have the invest overseas. Developers like trump are more than happy to facilitate this and you can see the effects especially in nyc the bay and vancouver. This is important because even when Americans kedp their purse closed their is an endless supply of international buyers so americans are not in control of supply and demand in their own cities.

 

This is ome of the reason im supporting Elizabeth Warren she is one of the few who understands corporate corruption extends to houses. You build all these fancy buildings without any housing for ppl already living there. I am also slightly anti gentrification because in many ways i see it as economical racial disenfranchisement. After you get your finance degree stay in kansas and oklahoma make kansas happen! Make tornley(tornado alley) the new place to be seen. But every country blumpkin wants to stack up cities thst dont need one mord body. The only way you can do that is to kick the working n middle class ppl out by pricing them out and then pretend they were never there.

[+ SundayZip]

Hey @Unicorn, I doubt the $4000/month is a scam as you speculate. NY law does not allow HOAs to collect more in dues than it requires for operational expenses and reserve funds. Of course the only way to explain the HOA dues is to see the association's financial reports. My guess is that a large portion (easily more than half) of dues go into the reserve fund needed to pay for big projects such as roof replacement, boiler/furnance upgrades, upgrading elevators to code, re-tuckpointing the entire building, etc, etc. Most US states have laws governing the management of HOA finances, especially the requirement to maintain an adequate reserve fund. 1140 5th Ave is a 1922 building, so it could have a lot of impending high-cost projects that require a hefty reserve fund.

Edited June 9, 2019 by SundayZip

[LookingAround]

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central park west is prob most expensive place in the world. There are columbus circle. They must have a mansion. The crazy thing is maintenance fees continue to go up so you cant even plan your future. If ppl stopped making manhattan the end all be all maybe prices would drop. I always wanted to live in the city but not at those prices.

I think you mean Central Park South is the most expensive...

[cany10011]

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central park west is prob most expensive place in the world. There are columbus circle. They must have a mansion. The crazy thing is maintenance fees continue to go up so you cant even plan your future. If ppl stopped making manhattan the end all be all maybe prices would drop. I always wanted to live in the city but not at those prices.

 

It’s a classic 7 plus den on the park. She only uses it when works late, her main residence is a horse farm in NJ.

Edited June 9, 2019 by cany10011

[cany10011]

To mikebidude who thumbed me down. It is a fact ny real estate is often sold to many wealthy foreigners who have never set foot in america. Chinese particularly who are wealthy may not be able to own anything in china so they rather have the invest overseas. Developers like trump are more than happy to facilitate this and you can see the effects especially in nyc the bay and vancouver. This is important because even when Americans kedp their purse closed their is an endless supply of international buyers so americans are not in control of supply and demand in their own cities.

 

This is ome of the reason im supporting Elizabeth Warren she is one of the few who understands corporate corruption extends to houses. You build all these fancy buildings without any housing for ppl already living there. I am also slightly anti gentrification because in many ways i see it as economical racial disenfranchisement. After you get your finance degree stay in kansas and oklahoma make kansas happen! Make tornley(tornado alley) the new place to be seen. But every country blumpkin wants to stack up cities thst dont need one mord body. The only way you can do that is to kick the working n middle class ppl out by pricing them out and then pretend they were never there.

 

 

I agree. Also, a lot of LLCs buying properties in my building. Is it because they can claim it as a business expense and not have to pay taxes on that?? I’m sorry for asking such a question but i’m not a numbers person.

[Guest]

Hey @Unicorn, I doubt the $4000/month is a scam as you speculate. NY law does not allow HOAs to collect more in dues than it requires for operational expenses and reserve funds. Of course the only way to explain the HOA dues is to see the association's financial reports. My guess is that a large portion (easily more than half) of dues go into the reserve fund needed to pay for big projects such as roof replacement, boiler/furnance upgrades, upgrading elevators to code, re-tuckpointing the entire building, etc, etc. Most US states have laws governing the management of HOA finances, especially the requirement to maintain an adequate reserve fund. 1140 5th Ave is a 1922 building, so it could have a lot of impending high-cost projects that require a hefty reserve fund.

 

I'm not really thinking of moving to Manhattan, but I was curious to see what similar $$ would get me on that island, as opposed to the Hollywood Hills. If not a scam, then $4000 seems to represent some pretty gross mis-management. As I mentioned previously, my HOA dues are less than 10 times that, and my dues cover a number of things this co-op's dues do not: (1) homeowners' insurance, (2) three swimming pools, (3) tennis courts, (4) periodic resurfacing of the private streets we live on, (5) maintenance of a club-house, and (6) extensive landscaping, including flower beds which ensure flowers every day of the year. It also includes roof replacement/maintenance and exterior painting, as does the NYC co-op, I presume. Of course, we don't have a door-man, nor an elevator, but that shouldn't account for such a huge difference.

I suppose if I wanted to live in NYC, it looks like Riverdale would provide much better value, and seems to have good rail connections to mid-town Manhattan. Of course, I don't know that I've ever been there, so maybe I'm talking out of ignorance.

This place, steps from the Sunset Strip, looks delightful, with much lower expenses and no HOA:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8706-Sunset-Plaza-Pl-Los-Angeles-CA-90069/20798211_zpid/

Of course, it is older, so I'd have to make sure it would be in good shape before I'd buy. This place has modern construction and also would seem delightful, although not walking distance to the Strip (certainly close enough):

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8555-Ridpath-Dr-Los-Angeles-CA-90046/135740841_zpid/

This place also seems nice. Of course, if I had kids, it looks as though I'd have to find a private school for my kids after the 5th grade. One could easily walk to the Strip, although the way back would be quite a schlep:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1438-N-Doheny-Dr-Los-Angeles-CA-90069/2114952429_zpid/

[instudiocity]

I agree. Also, a lot of LLCs buying properties in my building. Is it because they can claim it as a business expense and not have to pay taxes on that?? I’m sorry for asking such a question but i’m not a numbers person.

Truly wealthy people own their LLC’s not properties and investments. They limit their liabilities by separating properties into separate entities. They also get business write offs and convert income from personal income to pass-through income that is taxed differently.

[studchaser]

I think you mean Central Park South is the most expensive...

 

Well that area in general along with the Columbus Circle area.

[studchaser]

It’s a classic 7 plus den on the park. She only uses it when works late, her main residence is a horse farm in NJ.

 

Dats a rich bitch!!!

[studchaser]

I agree. Also, a lot of LLCs buying properties in my building. Is it because they can claim it as a business expense and not have to pay taxes on that?? I’m sorry for asking such a question but i’m not a numbers person.

 

I know before trump changed the tax code real estate expenses created huge tax benefits. The limit now is 10k. Im not completely acquainted with the corporation changes but overall itvseems the changes benefit them so i imagine so. I think in a city like ny there needs to be alot of reform in real estate. No one who cant legally live here should be able to buy. Corporations who are not housing ppl should not take precedent over individuals buying for primary residence. Granted id prob make way more with a corporate buyer but whats the point if i still cant afford to buy with all my high commission.

 

Housing reforcm is my biggest platform right now. Everyone is on student debt free college hourly wage transgender bathroom rights. As a nyer that is the biggest deal!!

[+ Eric Hassan]

i live in manhattan and own my place with my husband - the money we pay monthly pays for the doorman and building staff (24 hour doorman and trash/snow removal, emergency maintenance, regular cleaning and upkeep of shared spaces), the electricity and climate control in hallways, stairways, and the lobby, it pays for flowers/landscaping in planters in front of the building and on the roof, it pays for fines we might get for things like trash issues - it also adds to the reserve we have for projects (a couple years ago when they were planning to replace every window in the whole building, an inspection revealed the roof needed work and the reserve helped pay for that) - also, we have three retail spaces on the ground floor of the building - when those spaces are empty (as one was for the past year or so after the restuarant closed abruptly), the money we pay monthly helps cover the cost of the mortgage for those spaces, which is typically covered by the business that leases from our building

[Guest]

i live in manhattan and own my place with my husband - the money we pay monthly pays for the doorman and building staff (24 hour doorman and trash/snow removal, emergency maintenance, regular cleaning and upkeep of shared spaces), the electricity and climate control in hallways, stairways, and the lobby, it pays for flowers/landscaping in planters in front of the building and on the roof, it pays for fines we might get for things like trash issues - it also adds to the reserve we have for projects...

I admire your husband's not getting jealous over your job! I imagine it can't be easy. May I ask what your monthly dues are? I'm guessing that the 24-hour doorman would be the most expensive part. The other stuff would seem pretty minor in comparison. And how many units to pay for that. Obviously, maintaining a 24-hour doorman would be far more challenging if there are 5 units paying for him, as opposed to 50 units.

[gallahadesquire]

Coming from a long line of losers, the family Lore is that my grandfather’s grandfather owned 1/3 Of Columbus circle. It was farmland. He sold it because it was too far uptown.

 

On the other hand, my Grandfather was a toy wholesaler, and he DID introduce the Barbie doll to the Chicago area.

[+ Eric Hassan]

I admire your husband's not getting jealous over your job! I imagine it can't be easy. May I ask what your monthly dues are? I'm guessing that the 24-hour doorman would be the most expensive part. The other stuff would seem pretty minor in comparison. And how many units to pay for that. Obviously, maintaining a 24-hour doorman would be far more challenging if there are 5 units paying for him, as opposed to 50 units.

 

we've got 13 floors with apartments, each with about 10 units, most occupied by single people or couples without children (there are a few young families) so the costs are divided among all of us - i won't give numbers, but our monthly fees are close to what our monthly mortgage is - the monthly fees owed to the co-op are based on how many shares you own; smaller places (as measured by square feet) pay less because they own less of the building

[Kevin Slater]

smaller places (as measured by square feet) pay less because they own less of the building

 

Yeah, that never struck me as quite fair. Fees are usually directly correlated to square footage, but I'm not sure smaller units receive fewer packages, use the elevator less, etc. I'm a beneficiary of this as all my units tends to be small vis-a-vis their buildings, but if I were to design the system, there'd be a flat base charge for all units and then a second component based on square footage.

 

Maybe my argument works better in a condo (which all mine are), because it's an easy rebuttal that a co-op is simply charging $x per share.

 

Kevin Slater

[Guest]

we've got 13 floors with apartments, each with about 10 units, most occupied by single people or couples without children (there are a few young families) so the costs are divided among all of us - i won't give numbers, but our monthly fees are close to what our monthly mortgage is - the monthly fees owed to the co-op are based on how many shares you own; smaller places (as measured by square feet) pay less because they own less of the building

Well, if the doormen cost some $300,000 per year, at 130 units, that comes to about $2308 per unit per year, or $192 per unit per month. I would imagine that's the biggest expense. Maybe $250/unit-month if the doormen are really well-paid. If you're paying thousands a month in dues, I really wonder where all that money's going. Not for the landscaping, that's for sure.

[instudiocity]

Yeah, that never struck me as quite fair. Fees are usually directly correlated to square footage, but I'm not sure smaller units receive fewer packages, use the elevator less, etc. I'm a beneficiary of this as all my units tends to be small vis-a-vis their buildings, but if I were to design the system, there'd be a flat base charge for all units and then a second component based on square footage.

 

Maybe my argument works better in a condo (which all mine are), because it's an easy rebuttal that a co-op is simply charging $x per share.

 

Kevin Slater

Don’t forget an occupancy count for water & sewer variable usage.

[spider]

Well, if the doormen cost some $300,000 per year, at 130 units, that comes to about $2308 per unit per year, or $192 per unit per month. I would imagine that's the biggest expense. Maybe $250/unit-month if the doormen are really well-paid. If you're paying thousands a month in dues, I really wonder where all that money's going. Not for the landscaping, that's for sure.

 

I’m guessing the largest is the management company fees. Then payments into the reserves (especially older buildings since everything costs a fortune). The maybe door staff, then annual maintenance/janitorial etc, then maybe taxes for the building , various permits, insurance isn’t cheap. (Taxes and insurance on a condo are for the parts of the building not inside a unit - common property.) in a big city don’t forget money to oil the wheels of government. Aka bribes - I kid you not. Landscaping - even in the city you likely have planters and they cost more than you can imagine. My building has an attorney on retainer.

 

To the reserves. A recent roof and facade work cost my 60 unit building $1.5M. Thank God for the reserves!!

 

Based on my HOA fee I’m guessing my 60 unit building budget is about $60K a month. I could look it up but I’m too lazy right now.

[+ Eric Hassan]

Well, if the doormen cost some $300,000 per year, at 130 units, that comes to about $2308 per unit per year, or $192 per unit per month. I would imagine that's the biggest expense. Maybe $250/unit-month if the doormen are really well-paid. If you're paying thousands a month in dues, I really wonder where all that money's going. Not for the landscaping, that's for sure.

 

we've got doormen, a super, and a porter in the building - labor costs are most certainly higher than 300k and not only do we pay their salary, but we pay for supplies like paper towels, heavy duty garbage bags, lightbulbs, paint, etc - the building also supplies filters for every HVAC unit in the building including in all the units - they also go to each floor daily to clean the carpets and moulding, clear out all the recycling, change lightbulbs as needed, sweep and mop the staircases - they also take out the trash, clean the sidewalks and entryways, and remove snow and ice when necesssary - they also manage packages (coming and going), laundry/dry cleaning (coming and going)

 

also, it's likely that labor is not the biggest expense - we have common areas that are mortgaged and need to be paid for (and cleaned and cllimate controlled) collectively including a lobby, stairwells, hallways, a bike room and a storage room, and we also have three retail space that needs to be paid for when there is not a tenant - recently, a restaurant space we had was vacant for over a year, and they pay a lot of rent - rent that we have to make up when they are not there - and all of this is in addition to real estate taxes

 

additionally, there is regular maintenance that needs to happen on the physical structure - along with routine things like cleaning the boilers, there are multiple pieces of machinery to keep the building going - laundry facilites, the trash compactor, the security system and cameras, etc

 

then there are the surprise items that come up - gas leaks, sewage problems, sudden departure of staff and overtime needed to compensate, broken window in the lobby, etc

 

i know it seems like it's a lot of money each month on top of mortgage, and you could do math and figure out how much you think it should cost, but i can tell you the experience of living in a building and paying one fee that makes sure taxes are paid, there is adequate staff, the building is safely maintained and secured, my trash is taken care of, my laundry and packages can be delivered and received and held for me when i am not there, i don't shovel snow or weed the gardens, there is someone to greet me any time of day or night i arrive, and someone to greet my guests as well makes it worth the money

 

the way i look at it is comparing my experiencce with my brother - he lives in a huge house in the woods of new hamsphire for which he pays a mortage. he's got a huge yard - that he has to mow, fertilize, and water - and he has to purchase and maintain the equipment to do it - he's got a big patio in the back and a long driveway - both of which need to be cleared in the winter of snow and ice - he has to heat and cool the house (which he pays for, and which involves at least 3 vendors - the oil people, the electric company, and the people who maintain the system) and not only does he have to take care of all of the maintenance of the house - cleaning the bathrooms, doing laundry, cleaning windows, fixing broken things, etc - all of which require cleaning supplies, screws, nuts and bolts, etc - he pays his own real estate taxes, take his garbage out, chase down packages that need signatures because he's not home when they deliver, pick up his dry cleaning at the cleaner, rake leaves in the fall, etc - he pays more than i do because he not only has to pay for supplies and maintenance, then he has to do it himself, so his nights and weekends are disproportionally full of the taking care of his house and yard - at both a finanancial and physical cost - all to live in the woods where everyone is in bed by 8pm because they're exhausted from yardwork

[+ Eric Hassan]

I’m guessing the largest is the management company fees. Then payments into the reserves (especially older buildings since everything costs a fortune). The maybe door staff, then annual maintenance/janitorial etc, then maybe taxes for the building , various permits, insurance isn’t cheap. (Taxes and insurance on a condo are for the parts of the building not inside a unit - common property.) in a big city don’t forget money to oil the wheels of government. Aka bribes - I kid you not. Landscaping - even in the city you likely have planters and they cost more than you can imagine. My building has an attorney on retainer.

 

To the reserves. A recent roof and facade work cost my 60 unit building $1.5M. Thank God for the reserves!!

 

Based on my HOA fee I’m guessing my 60 unit building budget is about $60K a month. I could look it up but I’m too lazy right now.

 

exactly - reserves are a good thing for surprise items like that - we recently had to have the roof fixed as well, which cost well over a million (not sure on the exact figure, but this is for some structural issues that we wouldn't have known about if there wasn't an inspection - it just woudl have become a problem further down the road)

[+ Charlie]

I live in a retirement community of individual homes, for which the owners are entirely responsible, including landscaping and utilities, but HOA fees are still needed for insurance and maintenance of the communal areas, the "lodge" (which contains offices, meeting rooms, game rooms, a gym, craft rooms, library, kitchen, etc.), four swimming pools with toilet and shower facilities, tennis courts, pickleball courts, shuffleboard, bocce, etc. In addition to all the maintenance expenses, management personnel to run the facilities aren't cheap. Lawyers are also needed to deal with problematic owners and residents as well as with local government. It is a gated community, but the gatehouses are not manned; however, some residents who are nervous about security want the HOA board to hire guards to man the gatehouses and patrol the grounds. An owner, who is a retired police chief, has estimated that the cost of doing so could almost double the current HOA fee (he thinks it would be a waste of money for little actual gain in security).

 

We moved here from our own home on a quarter acre of land with a swimming pool, and a dozen lovely trees (the proper care of which cost us about $8000/yr). I have found that even with all the things that have to be covered by the HOA fee, our homeowning expenses have actually decreased along with the stress of individual responsibility for things that are now taken care of by someone else.

[marylander1940]

 

Are this other service included? If they are I would pay 4K a month!

[MikeBiDude]