Ignorance Of History

[+ Avalon]

I'm not sure what you saw in my post that convinced you that Jefferson was right. I think it showed that Jefferson was pretty foolish to believe that the rest of the world would respect the American declaration that after we had won our independence, our country just wanted to be left alone to do our own thing, and they would just go and fight among themselves. BTW, it was Jefferson who made the Louisiana Purchase that extended the USA across the plains and over the Rockies.

 

I especially liked TJ for two things - the Declaration of Independence and the Louisiana Purchase.

 

I was not aware that TJ was such an isolationist before I read your post. Thanks!

[+ ArVaGuy]

@Epigonos has summarized my sentiments about the study of history much better than I could. I was a history major in college with focus on Ancient Greece and Rome as well as 19th century US Politics. I much prefer ancient history but remain interested many different periods.

 

Understanding the past explains and defines the present. Some of what I’ve read in this thread demonstrates the woeful ignorance Americans have regarding our own national history as well as Western Civilization and world history in general. Depressing.

 

Historical events are facts. Events occur and the ramifications echo for the many centuries to come. The one constant I observe in my readings of history is that human nature does not change. We’ve evolved and become more civilized in some areas but we’re just as greedy and selfish as our ancestors were centuries ago.

 

Take Ancient Rome for example and the fall of the Republic. Rome defeats Carthage in the mid second century BCE. She becomes the lone superpower in the Mediterranean with no viable challenger. Colonialism expands during the Late Republic at a rapid pace. Massive whealth pours into Rome. The working class lost their livelihood as cheap labor in the form of slaves permeated the economy. A huge income disparity manifested between the haves and have nots.

 

The political class begins to vie amongst themselves for total supremacy. The fundamental structure of republican governance begins to breakdown. Strongmen begin amassing wealth and military strength to challenge their rivals. Multiple civil wars occurred and the gods help you if you choose the wrong side.

 

The factions divide into the Optimates (elites) versus Populares (populists). Eventually one military strongman defeats the elites in civil war becoming dictator. He appeals to the masses and manipulates their fears. When he’s assassinated civil war engulfed the entire Mediterranean. End result a military dictatorship led by a charismatic and conniving individual takes power. The trappings and form of republican government remains in place giving the illusion of a free society but it’s a sham. That military dictatorship lasts 400 years in west and nearly a thousand in the east.

 

The ramifications of this empire echo through our world to this day. Look at the parallels to the last 30 to 75 years and see the similarities. Our political class is engaged in a similar struggle. There’s a huge income disparity. There’s conflict around the globe both militarily and economic. The population has become factionalized to a dangerous degree. They are easily manipulated through technology and propaganda. Charismatic personalities have come to power with hardly any checks or balances. Where all this leads is a tremendous unknown. But if one wants to understand the danger and find solutions then an understanding of similar circumstances 2,000 years ago may offer guidance.

Edited August 2, 2018 by ArVaGuy

[Epigonos]

In many ways Thomas Jefferson was an ass. He was a rabid Francophile who went out of his way to make excuses for and rationalize the extreme excesses of the French Reign of Terror. When he wrote in the Declaration of Independence that “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” he meant WHITE men as he was one of the major slave owners in Virginia. He opposed the development of manufacturing in the United States and hoped that the country would remain a nation made up of small farmers and tradesmen. In 1800 he ran one of the dirtiest campaigns in U.S. history in his presidential fight against John Adams. Jefferson frequently preached the doctrine of brotherly love while his behind the scene actions were malicious and vicious. He had a great knack for getting others to do his dirty work while he chose to give the appearance of being above the fray. When one strips away the myths surrounding Thomas Jefferson he turns out to be rather shallow and unlikeable.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Epigonos

[+ ArVaGuy]

In many ways Thomas Jefferson was an ass. He was a rabid Francophile who went out of his way to make excuses for and rationalize the extreme excesses of the French Reign of Terror. When he wrote in the Declaration of Independence that “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” he meant WHITE men as he was one of the major slave owners in Virginia. He opposed the development of manufacturing in the United States and hoped that the country would remain a country made up of small farmers and tradesmen. In 1800 he ran one of the dirtiest campaigns in U.S. history in his presidential fight against John Adams. Jefferson frequently preached the doctrine of brotherly love while his behind the scene actions were malicious and vicious. He had a great knack for getting others to do his dirty work while he chose to give the appearance of being above the fray.

 

 

I’m personally acquainted with one of his descendants. There was a huge family disagreement over the children he fathered with Sally Hemming. It’s only been in the last decade that Jefferson’s direct heirs gave any recognition to those descended from his slave and concubine.

 

Another fact about Thomas Jefferson, it’s well known he lived way beyond his means. His taste for the privilege of his social class is unquestionable. At no point was he ever able to free his slaves enmass. They were pledged as collateral for the loans he made to support his lifestyle.

[MikeBiDude]

More to the point, who are you really? The word Avalon suggests an island near Long Beach where Natalie Wood died - nice play, whomever you are really.

To clarify. The island is Santa Catalina Island just called “Catalina”. It’s 18-20 miles of the coast LA/Orange Counties. The major city and hub on the island is named “Avalon”, restaurants, hotels, tour companies, etc,

 

Natalie Wood’s demise came at the isthmus portion of Catalina Island, about 12-15 miles west of Avalon. The area is commonly referred to as “Two Harbors” (one cove each side of the isthmus) or just “The Isthmus”. It’s a lightly populated but popular company town with year-round boating, camping, fishing, diving destination...albeit with very limited onshore resources. RJ and Natalie were regulars there.

[+ Avalon]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Islands_(California)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon,_California

[+ WilliamM]

To clarify. The island is Santa Catalina Island just called “Catalina”. It’s 18-20 miles of the coast LA/Orange Counties. The major city and hub on the island is named “Avalon”, restaurants, hotels, tour companies, etc,

 

Natalie Wood’s demise came at the isthmus portion of Catalina Island, about 12-15 miles west of Avalon. The area is commonly referred to as “Two Harbors” (one cove each side of the isthmus) or just “The Isthmus”. It’s a lightly populated but popular company town with year-round boating, camping, fishing, diving destination...albeit with very limited onshore resources. RJ and Natalie were regulars there.

 

Yes, I spent about ten days there with a boat in the 1990s. You are right, I should have just given the name.

[MikeBiDude]

Island of romance perhaps, but the 26 miles is a long standing misnomer

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Islands_(California)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon,_California

[+ tassojunior]

In many ways Thomas Jefferson was an ass. He was a rabid Francophile who went out of his way to make excuses for and rationalize the extreme excesses of the French Reign of Terror. When he wrote in the Declaration of Independence that “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” he meant WHITE men as he was one of the major slave owners in Virginia. He opposed the development of manufacturing in the United States and hoped that the country would remain a nation made up of small farmers and tradesmen. In 1800 he ran one of the dirtiest campaigns in U.S. history in his presidential fight against John Adams. Jefferson frequently preached the doctrine of brotherly love while his behind the scene actions were malicious and vicious. He had a great knack for getting others to do his dirty work while he chose to give the appearance of being above the fray. When one strips away the myths surrounding Thomas Jefferson he turns out to be rather shallow and unlikeable.

 

He was over-educated (self-educated mostly) and he did dabble in philosophy a lot for a "politician". He was what we would call an ideologue today. But he espoused democracy better than anyone since Plato and Aristotle. Those two could have owned slaves also and didn't see it's evil like Jefferson did. Slaves were considered chattel property not people for thousands of years and in the US for almost another 100 years. He knew it was evil and freed slaves as he could afford to, which was mostly on his death since he was constantly broke. His black mistress brought many insults from Federalists, not because she was a slave but because she was black. His agarian preference was also a product of his time. Then it was how someone could work for themselves and not be employed to produce more wealth for a rich man. Jeffersonian democracy is revered worldwide as a good thing. His opponents were the Federalists who became the GOP; the people who think the rich are the most important.

[+ Avalon]

His opponents were the Federalists who became the GOP; the people who think the rich are the most important.

 

And the Federalist Party is no more. Maybe that portends the GOP. If you can't change/adapt you die.

 

At one time the Democratic Party was the party of slavery, segregation, the Klan; the party of "Rum, Romanism and Rebellion". But it has evolved. It is no longer the party of Jefferson and Jackson.

[Epigonos]

The Federalists Party was the first American political party and was founded in 1791 and ceased all operations in 1824. It was NOT the precursor of the current Republican Party (GOP). The Republican Party was founded in Wisconsin on March 20, 1854 at a meeting of Anti-Slavery Wigs. John C Fremont was the first Republican candidate for president in 1856. He lost to the Democratic candidate James Buchanan. The first successful Republican presidential candidate was Abraham Lincoln in 1860. The modern-day Democratic Party was founded around 1828 by the supporters of Andrew Jackson and was a populist party.

 

One might choose to argue that the Republican Party of Donald Trump is not the Republican Party of Abraham Lincoln. One might also choose to argue that the Democratic Party of Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama was not the Democratic Party of Andrew Jackson and is only now with people like Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Kamala Harris returning to its populist roots.

[+ ArVaGuy]

The Federalists Party was the first American political party and was founded in 1791 and ceased all operations in 1824. It was NOT the precursor of the current Republican Party (GOP). The Republican Party was founded in Wisconsin on March 20, 1854 at a meeting of Anti-Slavery Wigs. John C Fremont was the first Republican candidate for president in 1856. He lost to the Democratic candidate James Buchanan. The first successful Republican presidential candidate was Abraham Lincoln in 1860. The modern-day Democratic Party was founded around 1828 by the supporters of Andrew Jackson and was a populist party.

 

One might choose to argue that the Republican Party of Donald Trump is not the Republican Party of Abraham Lincoln. One might also choose to argue that the Democratic Party of Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama was not the Democratic Party of Andrew Jackson and is only now with people like Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Kamala Harris returning to its populist roots.

 

 

All this is correct. There’s absolutely no connection between the foundation of the Republican Party and the Federalist. The Democratic Party has its roots in the Democratic-Republican party that was led by Thomas Jefferson.

 

Currently both political parties are in their death throes. The parties are modeled after 20th century coalitions which are breaking down. Deservedly so. Party leaders are flailing in their efforts to adapt to early 21st century dynamics. The Democratic Party is morphing to a democratic socialist party along European lines. The Republican Party is morphing into a populist party.

 

The Democratic Party is in just as bad a shape as the Republicans. Both led by clueless Elitists hell bent on holding on to power and the money that flows from it. Only a fool places trust in either of these parties. Personally I want to see both these political parties destroyed.

[+ quoththeraven]

I do not include Texas and California. The USA would consist of the 13 Colonies, the Louisiana Purchase and the Two Floridas (East and West). People like Earl Warren and LBJ would probably still exist but from one of the 30 states that would comprise the Union.

 

And embassies? Canada and Mexico because they are our neighbors. The various European countries. And Israel of course if it exists in this timeline.

 

The USA would have stayed out of all foreign wars after 1776.

So what? It's a great what if for a work of alternative history (aka fiction) like Jo Walton's about Europe after a German victory in WWII (I'm blanking on the name) or for living in Cloud Cuckooland. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the study of history or with how human nature actually works.

[+ quoththeraven]

Thomas Jefferson was opposed to a standing army, because he thought that a republic could always count on its citizens to rise up and join voluntary militias to defend themselves against foreign enemies. He tried to cut off support for the army academy at West Point and any support for a navy. (He also insisted that any money appropriated by Congress for naval vessels should be spent on ones he designed himself, which turned out to be worthless in combat, as the naval professionals had predicted.) When the British declared war in 1812, the country was caught unprepared, and Madison found himself a Commander in Chief with almost no organized military to command. It was mainly luck and the British distraction by Napoleon in Europe that enabled the US to avoid being defeated by the British and potentially absorbed back into British North America. Believing in the possibility of non-involvement with the rest of the world was unrealistic then, and it is no more reasonable now.

And as a matter of national/self-defense, the lack of a standing army is irresponsible.

[TruthBTold]

I’m personally acquainted with one of his descendants. There was a huge family disagreement over the children he fathered with Sally Hemming. It’s only been in the last decade that Jefferson’s direct heirs gave any recognition to those descended from his slave and concubine.

Another fact about Thomas Jefferson, it’s well known he lived way beyond his means. His taste for the privilege of his social class is unquestionable. At no point was he ever able to free his slaves enmass. They were pledged as collateral for the loans he made to support his lifestyle.

 

Jefferson's history was contradictory. Sally Hemings was very young (14 to 16 years old) when she began her relationship with the 44 year-old Jefferson while they both were in France. While she could have become free by petition when she was in France because that country abolished slavery after 1789, on Jefferson and Hemings' return to the U.S. she remained enslaved (although with "special privileges"). It was negotiated, however, that her children by him (six, two who died) would be freed.

[+ quoththeraven]

I especially liked TJ for two things - the Declaration of Independence and the Louisiana Purchase.

 

I was not aware that TJ was such an isolationist before I read your post. Thanks!

TJ was a brilliant jackass who was an arrogant, elitist spendthrift and drowned his sorrow over his wife's death by repeatedly raping his wife's enslaved half-sister starting when she was fifteen or sixteen and had to be pressured to live up to his promise to free their offspring when they came of age.

 

He was also a terrible president.

Just maybe there's something between no foreign involvement and trying to dominate and micro-manage the world.

 

Of course there is, but I haven't seen anyone offer a cohesive description of what that looks like, which would be more impressive than offering another straw man.

[mike carey]

And I think if we had not gotten involved in WWI there would have been no WWII, no nazi Germany, no Holocaust.

That is highly contestable. There is no doubt that America determined the outcome of WW2, but it is by no means clear that the US determined the result of WW1. It may have affected the timing of the result but not the outcome itself.

[+ Avalon]

Jefferson's history was contradictory. Sally Hemings was very young (14 to 16 years old) when she began her relationship with the 44 year-old Jefferson while they both were in France. While she could have become free by petition when she was in France because that country abolished slavery after 1789, on Jefferson and Hemings' return to the U.S. she remained enslaved (although with "special privileges"). It was negotiated, however, that her children by him (six, two who died) would be freed.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson%E2%80%93Hemings_controversy

[+ quoththeraven]

Jefferson's history was contradictory. Sally Hemings was very young (14 to 16 years old) when she began her relationship with the 44 year-old Jefferson while they both were in France. While she could have become free by petition when she was in France because that country abolished slavery after 1789, on Jefferson and Hemings' return to the U.S. she remained enslaved (although with "special privileges"). It was negotiated, however, that her children by him (six, two who died) would be freed.

Yes, her choice was to leave her entire family behind and operate in a strange culture in a language she knew but was less fluent in or return home to family and familiar surroundings and bear Jefferson children he promised to free.

[+ quoththeraven]

A wall in the Rockies is absurd.

 

 

 

 

Their only enemies are other nations' tax departments, but the Swiss have no army. Not even a national guard although every citizen is armed and trained to shoot. For some reason no one has invaded them, not even Hitler, and the EU leaves them alone. Of course an invader would have to put up with all those cow bells and long horns.

Because they're rigidly neutral.

[+ Avalon]

That is highly contestable. There is no doubt that America determined the outcome of WW2, but it is by no means clear that the US determined the result of WW1. It may have affected the timing of the result but not the outcome itself.

 

But unlike WWII the Allies never occupied Germany after WWI. Germany just gave up from exhaustion.

[+ ArVaGuy]

Jefferson's history was contradictory. Sally Hemings was very young (14 to 16 years old) when she began her relationship with the 44 year-old Jefferson while they both were in France. While she could have become free by petition when she was in France because that country abolished slavery after 1789, on Jefferson and Hemings' return to the U.S. she remained enslaved (although with "special privileges"). It was negotiated, however, that her children by him (six, two who died) would be freed.

 

It’s all these contradictions that make Jefferson the most interesting of the founders of our republic. An incredibly brilliant mind combined with serious character flaws.

[mike carey]

But unlike WWII the Allies never occupied Germany after WWI. Germany just gave up from exhaustion.

So, what?

[+ quoththeraven]

Because of the immigration demographics would be way different in my scenario. In fact I'd have embassies only in European countries where 2% of US citizens have come from.

 

The USA would stay out of the affairs of other nations.

So the US you envision would be all-White? All-White without Manifest Destiny wasn't possible. And either people would still cross the border or the US wouldn't be the economic powerhouse it became.

 

Your idea of history is stringing facts together. Think again.

 

"The study of history should be a mind altering encounter that leaves one forever unable to consider the social world without asking questions about where a claim comes from, who's making it, and how time & place shape human behavior." https://t.co/fccGQeyRd5?amp=1

 

source

[TruthBTold]

If I remember correctly (and I often don't) it was Wilson who drafted a proposed peace treaty for those anti-German nations that included a League of Nations to resolve international disputes. However it was the Republican Congress that would not pass the treaty. Moreover, the anti-German European nations wanted to get their various types of revenge against Germany. Many of the European proposals that were passed eventually led to the beginning of WWII or rather helped to the rise of the Nazi party.