Ignorance Of History

[+ quoththeraven]

It’s all these contradictions that make Jefferson the most interesting of the founders of our republic. An incredibly brilliant mind combined with serious character flaws.

Not sure I agree with most interesting - I would like to see more attention paid to others rather than more publicity for Jefferson - but the combination of brilliance and character flaws, yes. Also a serious streak of impracticality and arrogance undercutting his brilliance.

[+ ArVaGuy]

That is highly contestable. There is no doubt that America determined the outcome of WW2, but it is by no means clear that the US determined the result of WW1. It may have affected the timing of the result but not the outcome itself.

 

The Great War of 1914 - 1918, what we call WWI, ended in a stalemate. There was no clear victory by the allies against Germany. The war ended in an armistice which is a secession of hostility (aka fighting). The allies acted as if they had beaten Germany but that’s debatable. The “peace” treaty imposed such onerous terms on Germany that it laid the groundwork work for World War II. WWII was merely the continuation of hostilities from 1918.

[+ Avalon]

So, what?

 

Germany and the Allies (the British Empire and France) were at a stalemate in the trenches. But with the USA entering the War Germany faced millions of new fresh armed forces. It was just too much.

[mike carey]

he Great War of 1914 - 1918, what we call WWI, ended in a stalemate. There was no clear victory by the allies against Germany. The war ended in an armistice which is a secession of hostility (aka fighting). The allies acted as if they had beaten Germany but that’s debatable. The “peace” treaty imposed such onerous terms on Germany that it laid the groundwork work for World War II. WWII was merely the continuation of hostilities from 1918.

Quite so, I was contesting Avalon's assertion that it was US involvement in WW1 that was decisive. They certainly helped, including American forces under the command of an Australian general. I would contend that Monash was at least as important in the allied victory as the presence of US forces. (And yes, it may have been exhaustion rather than defeat, but the armistice favoured the allies.)

[+ tassojunior]

And the Federalist Party is no more. Maybe that portends the GOP. If you can't change/adapt you die.

 

At one time the Democratic Party was the party of slavery, segregation, the Klan; the party of "Rum, Romanism and Rebellion". But it has evolved. It is no longer the party of Jefferson and Jackson.

The Federalists Party was the first American political party and was founded in 1791 and ceased all operations in 1824. It was NOT the precursor of the current Republican Party (GOP). The Republican Party was founded in Wisconsin on March 20, 1854 at a meeting of Anti-Slavery Wigs. John C Fremont was the first Republican candidate for president in 1856. He lost to the Democratic candidate James Buchanan. The first successful Republican presidential candidate was Abraham Lincoln in 1860. The modern-day Democratic Party was founded around 1828 by the supporters of Andrew Jackson and was a populist party.

 

One might choose to argue that the Republican Party of Donald Trump is not the Republican Party of Abraham Lincoln. One might also choose to argue that the Democratic Party of Bill Clinton and Barrack Obama was not the Democratic Party of Andrew Jackson and is only now with people like Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Kamala Harris returning to its populist roots.

 

The Federalist/Whig/Republican parties were all a chronological string of parties representing the northeast industrialists and bankers.

 

The Democratic-Republican party of Jefferson became the Democratic party in a name change under Jackson.

 

Today the GOP has been taken over by the Trump right-wing populists and it looks like it's staying that way. Trumpers are poorer than average, less educated, evangelicals and "deplorables". The old Democrats. (It's weird Trump, a billionaire, leads them).

 

The Democratic party is now the party of Wall Street limousine liberals. The old Republicans. More educated and urban and higher income. Hence. more "liberal". Both parties are private corporations. I was surprised the GOP let Trump win. I doubt the Democratic party will let left populists take their party. Populism is anathema to Wall Street, the banks, drug companies, etc. who both parties represent.

[+ tassojunior]

That is highly contestable. There is no doubt that America determined the outcome of WW2, but it is by no means clear that the US determined the result of WW1. It may have affected the timing of the result but not the outcome itself.

 

Even on WW2 there are many who say that Russia was many times more important than any other ally, against Germany. Which is true. At the end of WW2 there were so many battle-hardened Russian troops in central Europe they could have easily taken the continent. Why Yalta was necessary to make a deal with Stalin and why Russian troops had to forestall liberating parts of Germany given to other allies.

 

But these people ignore the fact that had the US not handled Japan almost single-handily (sorry Aussies), Japan may well have invaded Russia and with a two-front war Russia would have been much weaker in Europe. So I would say the US was almost as important as Russia.

[mike carey]

But these people ignore the fact that had the US not handled Japan almost single-handily (sorry Aussies), Japan may well have invaded Russia and with a two-front war Russia would have been much weaker in Europe. So I would say the US was almost as important as Russia.

No argument there, Australian and other contributions were at the margins for WW2. Japan did invade Russia in 1919 but that's a separate conversation.

[+ ArVaGuy]

@mike carey I wonder if you could provide any insight into the Great Emu War of 1932.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emu_War

 

 

Date 2 November – 10 December 1932

Location Campion district, Western Australia

Also known as Great Emu War

Participants Emus

Sir George Pearce

Major G.P.W. Meredith

Royal Australian Artillery

Outcome Failure. Emu population persists.

[+ Avalon]

No argument there, Australian and other contributions were at the margins for WW2. Japan did invade Russia in 1919 but that's a separate conversation.

 

Again thank-you! I was unaware of this.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_intervention_in_Siberia

[mike carey]

@mike carey I wonder if you could provide any insight into the Great Emu War of 1932.

No, I can't! In any case, WA is another country.

[+ tassojunior]

People fail to realize this is what the map of armies looked like toward the end of WW2. Russians could have easily marched across the continent, especially with the help of resistance forces in western Europe who were mostly Communist. Russia had already taken Austria and Greece was liberated by Communist resistance. Yalta was a desperate attempt by Churchhill and the west to convince Russia to stop that somehow succeeded.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

Edited August 2, 2018 by tassojunior

[Epigonos]

Yes they could have done so, HOWEVER, the Soviet Union did not yet have the atomic bomb and Stalin was fully aware that the U.S. did and that Truman would likely have used it if Soviet Armies had attempted to march into Western Europe. He simply wasn't willing to push Truman that hard and he already had all of Eastern Europe to digest.

[+ WilliamM]

All this is correct. There’s absolutely no connection between the foundation of the Republican Party and the Federalist. The Democratic Party has its roots in the Democratic-Republican party that was led by Thomas Jefferson.

 

Currently both political parties are in their death throes. The parties are modeled after 20th century coalitions which are breaking down. Deservedly so. Party leaders are flailing in their efforts to adapt to early 21st century dynamics. The Democratic Party is morphing to a democratic socialist party along European lines. The Republican Party is morphing into a populist party.

 

The Democratic Party is in just as bad a shape as the Republicans. Both led by clueless Elitists hell bent on holding on to power and the money that flows from it. Only a fool places trust in either of these parties. Personally I want to see both these political parties destroyed.

 

I do not agree that both parties are in their death throes. The GOP survived Herbert Hoover and several dacades later, Barry Goldwater. Nineteen months ago Obama was president. The Dems have won two the last three Preidential elections.

[+ tassojunior]

Yes they could have done so, HOWEVER, the Soviet Union did not yet have the atomic bomb and Stalin was fully aware that the U.S. did and that Truman would likely have used it if Soviet Armies had attempted to march into Western Europe. He simply wasn't willing to push Truman that hard and he already had all of Eastern Europe to digest.

 

The only 2 bombs the US had at that time were far from ready to use. I doubt Truman would have used them on white people anyway, certainly not an "ally". I doubt we could have carried an A bomb as far as Moscow and Russia is such a vast spread-out country there would have been plenty of people and fighters left. Just as in Yugoslavia, Communist resistance fighters could have easily taken Greece, Italy, and probably France. Russia taking all of Germany and keeping Austria was almost expected. Stalin's "retreat" is hard for me to understand.

 

Churchill did urge the US to drop an atom bomb on Moscow in 1946, when we may have had another one:

 

Churchill suggested that America strike first, before it was too late. According to FBI records, he urged Sen. Styles Bridges, a conservative Republican from New Hampshire active in foreign affairs, to back a preemptory and devastating attack on Moscow. “He [Churchill] pointed out that if an atomic bomb could be dropped on the Kremlin wiping it out, it would be a very easy problem to handle the balance of Russia, which would be without direction,” Bridges told the FBI

 

https://www.icij.org/blog/2014/10/churchill-urged-us-wipe-out-moscow-bomb/

Edited August 3, 2018 by tassojunior

[+ WilliamM]

One could argue that whether or not Truman woul have bombed white folks is a political issue that would be discussed in politcal science course, not a history course.

 

If Trump had bombed whites, how badly would have hurt him, if at all, in the 1946 and 1948 elections.

 

Also, political science departments offer undergratuate and graduate courses on the presidency where Truman can be studied in depth.

That could include comparing Truman with FDR, Ike, Kennedy and LBJ & Nixon on this specific important matter.

[+ GregM]

All this is correct. There’s absolutely no connection between the foundation of the Republican Party and the Federalist. The Democratic Party has its roots in the Democratic-Republican party that was led by Thomas Jefferson.

 

Currently both political parties are in their death throes. The parties are modeled after 20th century coalitions which are breaking down. Deservedly so. Party leaders are flailing in their efforts to adapt to early 21st century dynamics. The Democratic Party is morphing to a democratic socialist party along European lines. The Republican Party is morphing into a populist party.

 

The Democratic Party is in just as bad a shape as the Republicans. Both led by clueless Elitists hell bent on holding on to power and the money that flows from it. Only a fool places trust in either of these parties. Personally I want to see both these political parties destroyed.

 

Did you borrow my tin foil hat?

 

Hugs,

Greg

[TruthBTold]

Did you borrow my tin foil hat?

Hugs,

Greg

 

Actually the fringe Republican party is pushing much of what had been the moderate Republicans into both an independent party (who will vote Democratic when push comes to shove - a la Jennifer Rubin) and the Democratic party (a la Steve Schmidt). The left wing of the Democratic party will stay in the party and just push to get more progressive platforms. The Democratic party won't fling itself entirely to the left but it will shift that way and the moderate Republicans will modulate until the fringe throws itself off a cliff. Then the moderate Republicans will reformulate.

[Populist Fury]

Currently both political parties are in their death throes. The parties are modeled after 20th century coalitions which are breaking down. Deservedly so. Party leaders are flailing in their efforts to adapt to early 21st century dynamics. The Democratic Party is morphing to a democratic socialist party along European lines. The Republican Party is morphing into a populist party.

 

The Democratic Party is in just as bad a shape as the Republicans. Both led by clueless Elitists hell bent on holding on to power and the money that flows from it. Only a fool places trust in either of these parties. Personally I want to see both these political parties destroyed.

 

 

Just had a political orgasm reading this <333