Are we becoming too PC?

[TruHart1]

I attended our local opera company's production of Verdi's Rigoletto last evening with a friend. My friend told me about running into a man a couple of days ago, who said he'd seen the opening performance last Saturday. This man said he had enjoyed the production and the singers but that his wife and daughter, who had attended with him, were very put off by the "treatment of women" in the production and could not enjoy the opera for that reason.

 

I asked my friend if the production was updated to modern day, since I'd read no reviews or discussions of this local Rigoletto production yet. My friend had no idea, either, but I expressed my opinion that if the production was in the original setting (16th century Mantua) how could the man's wife and daughter expect women would not be portrayed as they were treated in Italy back in the 1500's?

 

The Metropolitan Opera's current production of Rigoletto is updated to 1960's Las Vegas and it perhaps would show the treatment of women in a better light, thus my speculation that our local production may have been updated to modern day and did not believably portray Gilda and Maddelena as modern women. No. As I found when the curtain first went up, the production is fully traditional, set in 16th century Mantua.

 

So to my question. Is political correctness becoming so important to modern society that we need to modify and update or even drop classic plays/operas or even works of art so as to not offend the public? Do the #MeToo and #TimesUp movements on social media require a modification or avoidance of any and all performance art created in history, or are some just hyper-sensitive at this moment in time?

 

TruHart1

[craigville beach]

The "Politically Correct Police" may have an issue with most creative works from years past. A good solution would have been for any "Program" that may have been distributed comment on the need to understand in todays world how different people were treated in prior generations. Use it as a learning tool and not a tool to offend. I think in context this could be done.

[bostonman]

So to my question. Is political correctness becoming so important to modern society that we need to modify and update or even drop classic plays/operas or even works of art so as to not offend the public? Do the #MeToo and #TimesUp movements on social media require a modification or avoidance of any and all performance art created in history?

 

No.

 

We can't just throw away and/or ignore centuries upon centuries of art because they don't conform to our current mores.

 

Period.

 

There was also a recent article in the NY Times concerning the revivals of Carousel and My Fair Lady, etc, posing the same kinds of questions. And questions like this have been around as far back as I can remember (even when I was first getting to know Carousel in my teens in the 1970's, I knew people who hated the piece because of how Julie rationalized Billy's treatment of her).

 

So, we're always allowed to question, to discuss, to often face the fact that time has NOT always changed for the better...but we must never fear art.

[Kenny]

So to my question. Is political correctness becoming so important to modern society that we need to modify and update or even drop classic plays/operas or even works of art so as to not offend the public?

Since the production has nothing whatever to do with issues of political correctness, I’d say the answer to your question is “no.”

[+ quoththeraven]

It's perfectly okay not to like a piece of art. The people in Rigoletto are uniformly awful. The duke lives to seduce another day and Rigoletto's daughter sacrifices herself for him. Rigoletto is no prize either, as he's fine with the duke's frivolous ways except when they affect his daughter. Despite the glories of the music, I'm not sure I'd want to spend an evening with these characters. It's not like Don Giovanni, where Don Giovanni gets his just deserts.

[+ WilliamM]

It's perfectly okay not to like a piece of art. The people in Rigoletto are uniformly awful. The duke lives to seduce another day and Rigoletto's daughter sacrifices herself for him. Rigoletto is no prize either, as he's fine with the duke's frivolous ways except when they affect his daughter. Despite the glories of the music, I'm not sure I'd want to spend an evening with these characters. It's not like Don Giovanni, where Don Giovanni gets his just deserts.

 

I have only seen Rigoletto once -- in Europe just after 9/11/2001. While I have no memory of the plot, wouldn't a Verdi opera be worth it despite the plot?

[bostonman]

Rigoletto is no prize either, as he's fine with the duke's frivolous ways except when they affect his daughter.

 

Rigoletto also is guilty of overprotecting his daughter. Not only is she kept sheltered, but she doesn't know what her father does (until of course she discovers him, pleading the courtiers for her life, in the palace in Act III) or who her mother was, etc. Ironically, he practically drives her into the Duke's bed by trying to keep her safe.

 

I actually feel that, no matter how they are treated, that the two main women are the most sympathetic characters. We can feel for Gilda - the young girl who just wants to experience some degree of life and love, and winds up going for the wrong man. Likewise, though Maddalena is a floozy who is clearly an accomplice to a number of murders, we get a glimpse of her heart as she tries to talk Sparfucile out of killing the Duke. Though Gilda tells her father at the very end that she sacrificed herself for the Duke, she makes her decision to do so after hearing Maddalena's pleas to her brother.

 

But in terms of this being a story full of unlikable characters, keep in mind that Verdi and librettist Piave were also in a huge battle with the censors over this opera (and others) - and what they ended up with is actually much tamer than the Victor Hugo play they were adapting.

[TruHart1]

It's perfectly okay not to like a piece of art. The people in Rigoletto are uniformly awful. The duke lives to seduce another day and Rigoletto's daughter sacrifices herself for him. Rigoletto is no prize either, as he's fine with the duke's frivolous ways except when they affect his daughter. Despite the glories of the music, I'm not sure I'd want to spend an evening with these characters. It's not like Don Giovanni, where Don Giovanni gets his just deserts.

This brings up a completely different question, do opera-goers attend opera for the plot/staging or do they attend to listen to glorious singing by great interpreters. In the case of this particular local production, we got a pretty fine baritone as Rigoletto, a great Sparfucile who made his few solo lines down to his lowest notes spooky and somewhat evil, and a Maddalena with a luscious mezzo voice who did not have any trouble keeping to her complicated staccato rhythms in the quartet.

 

Unfortunately we heard a somewhat underwhelming Gilda, (a pretty but bland "bird-songy" voice) and a Duke, who, though he had all the notes, sang it all as if he just needed to "get through it" without much nuance or slancio! Still, listening to a really great performance, such as the commercially recorded Pavarotti, Sutherland, Milnes version, makes one realize why this opera has been a very popular 'bread and butter' opera since its first performance almost 167 years ago. Yes, the characters in the libretto are all unlikeable, yet the music, composed by Verdi, makes it a great opera for great voices!

 

TruHart1

[+ WilliamM]

yet the music, composed by Verdi, makes it a great opera for great voices!

 

+1

[whipped guy]

In the last scene of Rigoletto the following exchange occurs between the Duke and Sparafucile:

 

DUCA Due cose, e tosto... (a Sparafucile)

SPARAFUCILE Quali?

DUCA Una stanza e del vino...

RIGOLETTO (Son questi i suoi costumi!)

 

The Duke basically says that he wants two things, a room and some wine to which Rigoletto eavesdropping says to Gilda that is his usual custom. Such is how the libretto was known since the piece was first presented in a Venice.

 

This is the censored version as in the original libretto the Duke asks Sparafucile for "Tua sorella e del vino", "Your sister and some wine". This makes more sense and implies what indeed is Maddalena' s occupation. Of course the censors in Venice did much to change the libretto as originally the Duke was a king, but surprisingly they still allowed the basic concept of the piece. Are we now regressing to an even worse time than 1850's Italy???

 

This correction is made in the urtext critical edition of the score which is the work of the University of Chicago Press under the stewardship of the late Philip Gossett.

 

I wonder if this was the edition performed which probably only further infalmmed the snowflake sensibilities of those who were offended.

 

(Disclaimer: I hope that my operatic dyslexia did not get things backwards as I did when I attempted to quote the libretto of Tosca from memory as I do not have access to the critical edition of the score.)

Edited March 9, 2018 by whipped guy

[bostonman]

...in the original libretto the Duke asks Sparafucile for "Tua sorella e del vino", "Your sister and some wine".

 

I wonder if this was the edition performed which probably only further inflamed the snowflake sensibilities of those who were offended.

 

I think that would depend on the viewer's knowledge of Italian and, if there were supertitles, how they chose to translate the phrase.

 

Personally, I think it's pretty obvious what Maddalena does, no matter which word is used (in essence, Sparafucile has already implied all of this to Rigoletto anyway).

 

But - assuming that TruHart's friend was focusing more on the Duke and his escapades, even before we get to Gilda or Maddalena, in the very first scene, he not only gives his "philosophy" on women in "Questo o quella," but tries to pick up Countess Ceprano right in front of her husband, and gets slammed by Monterone for seducing his daughter. (And one never knows what else the director had him do in this production...) - So, by the time we get to a possible "tua sorella e del vino," it's hardly a surprise he would say that, lol.

[+ Charlie]

Opera is an unusual art form, since most of the truly popular ones are based on stories that reflected the popular beliefs and prejudices of the time they were written, usually 17th to 19th centuries in Europe. Many are based on plays which would not find an audience today without the music, which is not ideologically offensive. That is not to say that those byegone beliefs and ideologies don't still resonate with many members of the modern audience, but it is easier to justify them to oneself when they are coated with beautiful music that has no ideological weight. It is interesting to me that music and art that was produced centuries ago still appeals so strongly to our tastes, long after the ideas which stimulated it have lost their conscious appeal.

 

I happen to love Richard Strauss's music, yet while watching a performance of Die Frau ohne Schatten in Berlin several years ago, I started to pay attention to the words, and it suddenly hit me that they were incredibly sexist, because the underlying thesis of the story is that a woman who can't have children is a failure. It actually changed my reaction to the music, which I began to see as ridiculously bombastic (I'll admit it: I normally love bombastic music). I haven't been able to bring myself to attend a performance of Frau since then. If I were to apply the same test to every opera I love, the list of operas to which I would buy tickets would probably shrink drastically.

[whipped guy]

I think that would depend on the viewer's knowledge of Italian and, if there were supertitles, how they chose to translate the phrase.

 

Personally, I think it's pretty obvious what Maddalena does, no matter which word is used (in essence, Sparafucile has already implied all of this to Rigoletto anyway).

 

But - assuming that TruHart's friend was focusing more on the Duke and his escapades, even before we get to Gilda or Maddalena, in the very first scene, he not only gives his "philosophy" on women in "Questo o quella," but tries to pick up Countess Ceprano right in front of her husband, and gets slammed by Monterone for seducing his daughter. (And one never knows what else the director had him do in this production...) - So, by the time we get to a possible "tua sorella e del vino," it's hardly a surprise he would say that, lol.

Well, I would bet the farm that there were supertitles. Even our local opera company which performs in a very small intimate theatre uses supertitles. It is the universal norm. I can't recall a performance (and that includes concert presentations) that I have attended in this century that have not featured titles. Plus, of late the translations have been quite accurate if contemporary in nature.

 

Plus, what I was stating was obviously emphasizing what the Venitian censorship at that point in time considered to be offensive and cross the line. So no reason to LOL at that as who knows if likewise that was the straw that broke the camels back for @TruHart1's friend. Perhaps I should have given the Cliff Notes summation of the complete libretto and then placed that line in the proper context to illustrate my contention!

[bostonman]

Plus, what I was stating was obviously emphasizing what the Venitian censorship at that point in time considered to be offensive and cross the line. So no reason to LOL at that as who knows if likewise that was the straw that broke the camels back for TruHart1's friend. Perhaps I should have given the Cliff Notes summation of the complete libretto and then placed that line in the proper context to illustrate my contention!

 

I think we agree way more than we disagree. What I was trying to say is that the Duke is already painted as such a cad that by the time we get to that spot in the last act, I can't imagine that one lyric change making a whole lot of difference. After all, what's worse - his (attempted?) rape of Gilda in the previous act, or his frankness about his designs for Maddalena?

 

As TruHart also brought up - the music itself has a lot to do with how we view all of this in general. And the Duke has some undeniable gorgeous arias to sing, maybe that keeps most of us from thinking about quite how awful he is. And if I were Gilda hearing "E il sol dell'anima" being sung to me, I'd fall for him too, even if I knew what a sleazeball he was.

 

Since Charlie brought up Strauss, I'll mention Salome. Her famous/infamous last scene is painted by the composer with some appropriately lurid music indeed, but there are also wonderful moments of beauty which almost seem to show that Salome's soul is truly capable of love. But, just as we're perhaps swept away by her last arching sung phrase, buoyed by a huge climactic resplendent sound in the orchestra (that buildup with the rising horn line is, IMO, fucking astounding), Strauss brings us back to our senses with a brilliant moment of absolute ugliness from the pit - a repulsive dissonant chord that reminds how horrid this whole incident has been. (At 8:54 in the clip of Teresa Stratas' incredible performance below.)

 

[whipped guy]

One feature of Rigoletto that has always fascinated me concerns the fact that like a number of Rossini operas the chorus is all male. I have always wondered if this was a nod to the censors so as to limit the interaction between the sexees with a libretto that possibly was right on the edge of being banned. In Rossini's L'Italiana in Algeri they are eunuchs, corsairs, and Italian slaves, but where are the harem girls? In Rigoletto they are the Duke's courtiers and guests, but no women "guests" are written into the musical score at least as far as the chorus is concerned. Possibly Verdi simply wanted to stress the male dominance or it simply was the "tinta" or color that he was looking for in the piece. Also, as in some of the posts above we are simply getting lost in the trees when Verdi was really only concerned about the forest.

 

Of course that does not mean that stage directors have not made sure that both of the above operas were well populated with women. I'm thinking of the Jean Pierre Ponnelle productions of both operas. I recall even seeming a BJ implied in his Italiana..

[whipped guy]

Since Charlie brought up Strauss, I'll mention Salome. Her famous/infamous last scene is painted by the composer with some appropriately lurid music indeed, but there are also wonderful moments of beauty which almost seem to show that Salome's soul is truly capable of love. But, just as we're perhaps swept away by her last arching sung phrase, buoyed by a huge climactic resplendent sound in the orchestra (that buildup with the rising horn line is, IMO, fucking astounding), Strauss brings us back to our senses with a brilliant moment of absolute ugliness from the pit - a repulsive dissonant chord that reminds how horrid this whole incident has been. (At 8:54 in the clip of Teresa Stratas' incredible performance below.)

Yes, that orchestral fart... pure genius!

Edited March 10, 2018 by whipped guy

[TruHart1]

In the last scene of Rigoletto the following exchange occurs between the Duke and Sparafucile:

 

DUCA Due cose, e tosto... (a Sparafucile)

SPARAFUCILE Quali?

DUCA Una stanza e del vino...

RIGOLETTO (Son questi i suoi costumi!)

 

The Duke basically says that he wants two things, a room and some wine to which Rigoletto eavesdropping says to Gilda that is his usual custom. Such is how the libretto was known since the piece was first presented in a Venice.

 

This is the censored version as in the original libretto the Duke asks Sparafucile for "Tua sorella e del vino", "Your sister and some wine". This makes more sense and implies what indeed is Maddalena' s occupation. Of course the censors in Venice did much to change the libretto as originally the Duke was a king, but surprisingly they still allowed the basic concept of the piece. Are we now regressing to an even worse time than 1850's Italy???

 

This correction is made in the urtext critical edition of the score which is the work of the University of Chicago Press under the stewardship of the late Philip Gossett.

 

I wonder if this was the edition performed which probably only further infalmmed the snowflake sensibilities of those who were offended.

 

(Disclaimer: I hope that my operatic dyslexia did not get things backwards as I did when I attempted to quote the libretto of Tosca from memory as I do not have access to the critical edition of the score.)

Well, I would bet the farm that there were supertitles. Even our local opera company which performs in a very small intimate theatre uses supertitles. It is the universal norm. I can't recall a performance (and that includes concert presentations) that I have attended in this century that have not featured titles. Plus, of late the translations have been quite accurate if contemporary in nature.

 

Plus, what I was stating was obviously emphasizing what the Venitian censorship at that point in time considered to be offensive and cross the line. So no reason to LOL at that as who knows if likewise that was the straw that broke the camels back for @TruHart1's friend. Perhaps I should have given the Cliff Notes summation of the complete libretto and then placed that line in the proper context to illustrate my contention!

In actuality, our local opera company uses the Figaro titles system (same as the MET!) with small individual screens on the back of the seats in each row. I recall quite distinctly that the titles in the performance of Rigoletto I attended on Wednesday night translated the Duke as singing "Your sister and some wine!"

 

TruHart1

[TruHart1]

One feature of Rigoletto that has always fascinated me concerns the fact that like a number of Rossini operas the chorus is all male. I have always wondered if this was a nod to the censors so as to limit the interaction between the sexees with a libretto that possibly was right on the edge of being banned. In Rossini's L'Italiana in Algeri they are eunuchs, corsairs, and Italian slaves, but where are the harem girls? In Rigoletto they are the Duke's courtiers and guests, but no women "guests" are written into the musical score at least as far as the chorus is concerned. Possibly Verdi simply wanted to stress the male dominance or it simply was the "tinta" or color that he was looking for in the piece. Also, as in some of the posts above we are simply getting lost in the trees when Verdi was really only concerned about the forest.

 

Of course that does not mean that stage directors have not made sure that both of the above operas were well populated with women. I'm thinking of the Jean Pierre Ponnelle productions of both operas. I recall even seeming a BJ implied in his Italiana..

I recall quite well the very first time I heard the full opera Rigoletto in a broadcast transcription with the musical depiction by Verdi of the 4th act storm gathering and building to the trio which ends with Gilda's stabbing and then dissipating as it moves into the distance really striking my ear with his use of the male chorus as the sound of the wind, beginning softly, building to the storm's climax and finally calming to nothing. I was impressed.

 

Later, listening to Puccini's Fanciulla del West (wherein the first and third acts both use the male chorus atmospherically) and Butterfly (the humming chorus with both male and female chorus) and the Tebaldi complete recording of Catalani's opera La Wally where the composer uses the male chorus as the sounds of the icy winds in the mountains which lead up to the final avalanche, in which Hagenbach is killed and into which Wally leaps to her death! All of these instances were impressive to my ears the first time I heard them and they are still favorites!

 

TruHart1

[+ Charlie]

The only opera I can think of offhand with fewer male voices than Fanciulla is Billy Budd.

[bostonman]

The only opera I can think of offhand with fewer male voices than Fanciulla is Billy Budd.

 

I know you meant fewer female voices, lol.

 

Fanciulla has 2 women - Minnie and Wowkle. I think there are some operas with only one woman, but not in true standard rep. (If we consider Stravinsky's Oedipus Rex to be an opera, that's one). Janacek's From The House Of The Dead has roles for 2 female singers, but one is a male character. There's a nice little chamber opera by de Falla called El Retablo De Maese Pedro that has 3 singing roles - two men and a boy soprano - but it's rare to hear. (The only reason I know it is because I did a report on it for Spanish class in high school lol.)

 

If we don't include chorus in the count, then Tosca would qualify (if the Shepherd is a boy soprano), as would Amahl (again, if Amahl is played by a boy).

 

This is probably cheating - but there's a PDQ Bach opera called Hansel And Gretel And Ted And Alice, where all the roles (male and female) are played by 2 men.

 

On the reverse side, how many operas contain ONLY women? Technically, Suor Angelica doesn't count, because if done as written, the offstage chorus at the end includes men. There are one-woman pieces such as Le Voix Humaine and Erwartung, and operas like Elektra, where most of the big singing is by the women. But - any others with no men at all?

[TruHart1]

I know you meant fewer female voices, lol...

 

On the reverse side, how many operas contain ONLY women? Technically, Suor Angelica doesn't count, because if done as written, the offstage chorus at the end includes men. There are one-woman pieces such as Le Voix Humaine and Erwartung, and operas like Elektra, where most of the big singing is by the women. But - any others with no men at all?

I was unaware that Suor Angelica included offstage male chorus voices at the end, though sometimes it seems like Puccini threw everything, including the kitchen sink into it, attempting to create a true miracle from heaven onstage, which did not quite work! I love the opera, especially with a great Angelica and Zia Principessa, but once in a while even with his amazing composing and orchestration talent, Puccini could not get quite the effect he strove for. The final love duet in Turandot is the other example of this. He was stuck, and then ended up dying before he could finish.

 

TruHart1

[LoveNDino]

When I saw the following, I thought of this thread...

[bostonman]

I'm not sure that video really reminded me of THIS thread so much, but the "hurling pixels at one another" does remind me of some threads out here lol.

[+ quoththeraven]

Apropos of the main topic:

 

http://www.macleans.ca/culture/should-canadian-opera-fix-mozarts-casual-racism/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

I saw it because of a tweet from a Canadian friend who mentioned L'Italiana as an opera that could stand to have its libretto tweaked.

[Kenny]

When I saw the following, I thought of this thread...

Bari Weiss is a digital stain. Ugh.