A regular client owes me for a session...now he's avoiding me. How do I collect?

[Boston Guy]

Flower:

 

I always look forward to reading your posts and I always respect your judgment -- as I do in this case. But I wonder if the course of action you are recommending is really the wisest course for him to take, especially if the amount of money is small (a few hundred dollars).

 

The client in question is described as an attorney who works for the government. It would seem to me that such a person could easily cause an escort a great deal of trouble, if he was of a mind to do so. At the very least, a well-placed tip to the local authorities could easily lead to more than a fair amount of aggravation -- far more, I would think, than the fee for a single encounter.

 

Things like what this client did can be frustrating and agravating. But sometimes one really is better off simply cutting one's losses and walking away.

 

BG

[VaHawk]

1342 or is that 3124??? Damn, it really is confusing when the self-annointed messiah and the self-annointed prophet of the HB MC are in disaccord!

[Flower]

>1342 or is that 3124??? Damn, it really is confusing when

>the self-annointed messiah and the self-annointed prophet of

>the HB MC are in disaccord!

 

hey hawk--let's be friends -- bury the hatchet??:*

[Flower]

Well, BG, calmer voices could well be right. The deal is, as an attorney, this guy has a lot to lose. Of course as an attorney, he is bound by high ethical standards which are taken very seriously by the California State Bar. An allegation of committing fraud is automatically reported to the State Bar regardless of outcome, which is why this guy should be given a chance to pay up first. My thought is this--if he's going to pull rank or privilege and dump on Paul with a word to cops or whoever, he is just as likely to do so whatever measures Paul takes to try and collect.

 

Personally, if I was that guy, I'd pay up happily and get Paul and his potential threat way behind me along with the stupidity of trying to fleece him. But you certainly have a point and as you can see, I mentioned that possibility as a caveat--but my gut reaction is that this guy won't want to pursue the matter, but who knows.

 

Really when it come right down to it, when we piss anyone off, we run that same danger--so does that mean we let people walk all over you? I've had clients complain of their neighbors calling the building department on a permit violation because the client complained about the barking dog and on and on--I think your comment about how much money is involved is a very good consideration--maybe for an hour meeting it's not worth it, but would be for an overnight. So anyway, good points.

[VaHawk]

> hey hawk--let's be friends -- bury the

>hatchet??:*

 

PLEASE, as if given our history of interaction on this board, that we have the proverbial "snow ball's chance in Hell" of being friends! :7

 

Can I ask my Cherokee ancestors where we can bury the hatchet?

 

I'm, certainly agreeable to a cessation of attacks against each other, however. Don't respond to my posts, and in return, I won't respond to your posts. That should work for both of us. :+

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

Another Escort Answers

 

>>no matter how much you think you can trust someone,

>>resist the urge to do so. At least in the money area.

>

>I'm sure you're still burning over this situation, but don't

>let it get the best of you, it will just eat you up. You had

>every reason to trust this guy, having seen him four or five

>times before with no problems.

 

I agree with Nate on this from the escort perspective. However, we are all individual businesses which means we can and should establish our own personal procedures.

 

Were I you in a similar situation, I would also have trusted this client. I have also gotten burned and I know other escorts who have gotten burned with bad checks, non-paying clients and other such drama. Unfortunately, it is part of the nature of this business, especially when clients do not respect escorts and have a low opinion of the nature of the services provided. On the other hand, there are a number of clients who will be appreciative and treat you with consideration and respect.

 

In your shoes, I would make another attempt to collect and would give the client some space in doing so, as was suggested, but also point out that you would prefer he be up front with you and make definite plans to pay as you would prefer not to have to deal with the matter otherwise.

 

At that point, only you can decide how much further you want to take things, if the client did not pay. I can see (and have known escorts) who pursued Flower's suggestion or something similar. Personally, in my own situation, I left it behind me at that point because of geography and distance. Faced with your situation, being in the same town, I may have pursued it to the end.

 

Best of luck!

[FourAces]

Doing what Flower suggested can also come back to haunt you as well. After all if the client is this unstable do you think he might want to raise the bar (pun intended) if you threaten to take him to small claims court. If he is connected he can create problems for you in your escort career.

 

Persoanlly, I feel like many here have expressed, get over it. It happened you lost some time and income and just like many business do write it off.

 

BTW: It's pretty arrogant of you to speculate that he has no financial problems,i.e. drugs, gambling ... how would you know?

 

RT

[Luv2play]

BG, I had the same reaction as you to the lawyer's story about the car payment. It was a BIG red flag. Since when does a professional who has a car payment make it in cash? And since when does an established lawyer have a daily limit on his ATM that would only cover the amount of a car payment (unless it's a Ferrari)? Another thing that would have occured to me was that this lawyer did not have any room on his credit cards to take a cash advance. Clearly a desperate situation. On the other hand, I would not expect every escort to appreciate these danger signals as it takes some familiarity with how things work for people with high incomes.

 

Also, the advice to take the high road is the only way to go. Learn from the experience and try to put something aside in the future so that you are not in such a precarious position that a single engagement near the end of the month makes the difference in meeting the rent or not. This is particularly the case if you are an established escort and know the ups and downs of demand from your regular and new clients. Good luck.

[Samai139]

Paul~~

I've read your original posting and all the reactions, both from the escorts' point of view and the clients'.

My perspective is that of the hirer of escorts and I hope I may help you in trying to come to terms with how you have been treated.

The client should never have scheduled an appointment with you. Never. I don't care what his temporary financial "mess" was, he had no right to extend his difficulties by getting you involved at that time. By accepting his story and trusting him, you certainly show a lot about your own character. The fact that you politely and patiently tried to explain and bring closure to the situation, again says a lot about your character. Sadly, I guess you will never see your money, unless the client has a reversal in his financial status, AND has a conscience that will not let him forget that he owes you. Let's hope that both of those things are true.

From what you have written, I am very impressed with your intelligence, your thoughtfulness, your compassion and your patience. This was a difficult experience and one that should never have happened; but it did and it can help you grow. Most of the people who are members of this board have experienced disappointments, unmet expectations, cruelty, even criminal acts---the fact that there are a--h---s out there should not deter you from continuing being a decent person who just happens to be an escort, for whatever reasons.

I wish I lived near enough to hire you and re-assure you that not all clients are "dead-beats." Good Luck and let us know how you are doing, OK??

[Boston Guy]

>Really when it come right down to it, when we piss anyone off,

>we run that same danger--so does that mean we let people walk

>all over you? I've had clients complain of their neighbors

>calling the building department on a permit violation because

>the client complained about the barking dog and on and on.

 

Flower, you're absolutely right that there's always a danger of some kind of unpleasant action coming back at us when someone is angry at us. And I don't think it's good to just let people walk all over us, either. There are times when I can be quite stubborn and determined, especially when I'm dealing with bureaucracies that don't want to let me do what it is I want to do. Sometimes you just have to stick up for yourself and your rights.

 

But it's been my experience that you can often do so while lowering the temperature in a hostile (or even just adversarial) situation by remembering that the other guy is human and trying to see things from his point of view -- and by not losing sight of the real goal or goals.

 

In this case, the goals seem to me to be two-fold: to collect the money that is owed to him; and to do so in a way that doesn't pose a threat to his escorting business. Royally pissing off his attorney client doesn't seem to me to be the best way to advance this dual agenda.

 

From an intellectual point of view, I did like your suggestion of sending the unfiled small claims court form to him. There's something very neat about that and it's concise and he'll get the message right away and one would think that he would really be motivated to pay the debt to prevent the filing. But what if he really can't pay it?

 

What if he is in a financial situation so desperate that he really, literally, can't get the money together to pay the debt, at least for a little while. We might be looking at a case where "you can't get blood from a stone applies." If so, my concern about the escort's business immediately kicks in for me because now he's backing a truly desperate man into a corner and threatening that man's livelihood with a fraud filing that the attorney knows will go to the State Bar. In that situation, what will that guy try to do? If he really wanted to hurt the escort, he could do so by going to various authorities. Would he do so? I don't know, but I wouldn't discount it.

 

>I

>think your comment about how much money is involved is a very

>good consideration--maybe for an hour meeting it's not worth

>it, but would be for an overnight. So anyway, good points.

 

Thanks. Since it represented only part of a rent payment, it probably wasn't an overnight. I do agree that the larger the amount, the more he would want to risk adverse reactions and just plunge ahead and try to collect the debt. If he does decide to do that, the advice you provided him presents him with a very straightforward way to go.

 

By the way, your take on this from the point of view of a California attorney was invaluable. I'm glad you're posting more often again.

 

Regards,

BG

[woodlawn]

> I find it hard to imagine what

>situation could possibly require $7000 because of what he

>characterized as his "B of A account being screwed up."

 

I can think of several such situations. The first one that comes to mind is that he got a margin call from his stockbroker.

 

>I'm surprised that sort of attitude is allowed to be expressed

>here. The whole reason I came here for advice was because I

>thought this was a supportive environment where I could get

>honest and respectful responses from other interested persons.

> I did not expect to be treated as though I was a second-class

>human being. Hopefully this is the exception and not the rule

>here.

 

I sympathize with your situation, to an extent. My sympathy is limited by the fact that even before you entered into your first escort transaction you must have known that what you are doing is outside the law and that there is no legal remedy if a client fails to keep his side of the bargain, just as clients who are cheated by escorts have no such remedy. When you were considering doing this kind of work, what did you think you would do if a client stiffed you? Did the possibility never occur to you?

 

Apart from the merits of your case, I'm surprised that you come to a message board expecting to find that everyone else's opinions are the same as yours. I can't tell you how tired I am of seeing escorts come here and express outrage that opinions not supportive of whatever they do are "allowed to be expressed here." If that's your attitude you really don't belong on a message board.

[Boston Guy]

A different suggestion

 

Having considered this for a bit, I find myself wondering if there isn't another possible course of action. Many of the things that have been suggested above have been somewhat or fairly adversarial in nature. This is not surprising, since we're dealing with what is essentially a bad debt and adversarial steps are usually necessary to collect those.

 

But I wonder if this situation might pose an opportunity for something else. First, you had a personal relationship with the guy which was evidently reasonably satisfying, at least from the perspective of an escort-client relationship. You didn't toss him out on his ear and you agreed to see him repeatedly over time. So the two of you had to click on some level.

 

Now you discover that the guy is completely out of money, at least temporarily, and cannot pay you. You're angry, somewhat confused, and seeking advice on how to proceed. You've already taken some actions to try to collect the debt, with the result that he's told you to "fuck off." Further confrontation may well lead to similar results.

 

But what if you took the opposite approach? If it were me, I'd consider sending him a short email, inviting him out for a cup of coffee. (I'd even make a point of saying I'd buy the coffee. :-) ) I'd explain that I was in a desperate financial situation myself because of the need to pay rent and that caused me to take the steps I did take but that now that's past, I'd like not to ruin our relationship and could we just get together for a few minutes to commiserate and see how to proceed in a way that will let us stay friends, or words to that effect.

 

I can see some saying that the scenario I propose is naive. But I don't think so. If he doesn't accept, all of your other options are still open to you. Even if he does accept, all you've invested is a small amount of time and $5.00 for a couple of cups of coffee. The worst thing that can happen is that no forward progress will be made. But some sympathetic conversation might bring him back from the "fuck you" stance he's taken to a point where he's more sympathetic to you and your needs and will in fact try to pay you. In the best of all possible worlds, a conversation would lead to payment, an apology from him, and a request to put this behind you and continue with your escort/client relationship -- on a cash upfront basis, of course.

 

Anyway, over the years, I've found being nice when people least expect it can sometimes lead to surprising results.

 

Good luck to you.

 

BG

[Guest zipperzone]

OK - here goes..........

 

I have been absolutely captivated by the many posts that have been written about Paul being ripped off. Frankly it sounds as if it could be an episode from a day time soap! Has Paul given any concideration to selling the scenario to the writers of same. That's one way he might recover his loss.

 

On a more serious note, the first thing that struck me was the sheer stupidity of the client, giving Paul his business card with all his vitals on it at their first meeting. Talk about trust. Many of my escorts know who I am and a great deal about me, but that information only comes with time. There is no way I am about to reveal my name, occupation and employer on a first meeting. The fact that Paul's client did so, is evidence that his intention was not to scam Paul.

 

It's interesting that Paul wants out imput - and for us to be sympathetic to his cause - but has yet to reveal the amount of $$$ in question. The popular assumption is that we are talking about 200 bucks.

 

Lets keep in mind that Paul has had 4 to 5 previous sessions with the client, so he's made roughly a thousand bucks from him so far. Not that that negates the current indebtedness but looking at it from a business perspective, the guy wasn't a total loss to Paul.

 

Did the client intend to scam Paul on the last encounter? We will never know for sure but my gut tells me no. He got caught up in cirmumstances that he should have known were coming down the tube but he probably didn't think the shit would hit the fan when it did.

[Luv2play]

There's also a saying "A stiff prick has no conscience" which applies in spades here! :o

[Holden]

RE: A different suggestion

 

"trust me, you are never going to hear from this guy again. Relax, cut your loses and learn something from this. Every business person get burned by thieves once and awhile, either with bad checks, charge backs, or just out and out theft (which is what happened here)."

 

The above advice is probably exactly true. You did not do anything wrong in trusting him. After 4 or 5 visits you thought you knew him well enough to do that. Nothing wrong with that. I agree that you will not get your money. The only thing you could do to retaliate is to show up at his place of employment and make a scene when requesting that he pay you what he owes you. It would probably not get you your money but it would at the very least embarass the hell out of him. As a federal gov't employee, it would, at the very least, creat a problem for him. I doubt that he would "out" you as an escort....being a john is also an offence (I think) and he wouldn't want to risk that.

 

When all is said and done, just learn from this and leave it behind you. In the long run, it probably is the best thing to do.

[woodlawn]

RE: A different suggestion

 

>I can see some saying that the scenario I propose is naive.

>But I don't think so.

 

I don't think so either. As many professional collection agents will tell you, the adversarial approach often doesn't work, especially with people who have genuine financial problems. I suspect the only way the escort will ever see any of the money in this case is to respond to the client's hostile remarks with patience, understanding and good humor and try to restore a friendly atmosphere. If that were to happen, the client might feel motivated to pay something if and when he becomes able to do so. Upbraiding him certainly isn't going to make him feel more inclined to pay. Given the exchanges that have already occurred, however, it may be too late for this approach. There's nothing to lose by trying.

[eastbayguy]

Hi,

 

>From an intellectual point of view, I did like your suggestion

>of sending the unfiled small claims court form to him.

>There's something very neat about that and it's concise and

>he'll get the message right away and one would think that he

>would really be motivated to pay the debt to prevent the

>filing. But what if he really can't pay it?

 

If the guy is an attorney, presumably smart and so forth, I seriously doubt that he really can't pay it. If he owns a home, owns a car or other property or possessions, the guy surely has a credit line or some way of tapping some cash. Plus, if he has a job, he has an income. Admittedly I either missed or don't recall the dollar amount, but next payday, the guy could quite easily hand Paul a couple bucks in cash. Sending the un-filed small claims court form over is just brilliant!

 

>What if he is in a financial situation so desperate that he

>really, literally, can't get the money together to pay the

>debt, at least for a little while. We might be looking at a

>case where "you can't get blood from a stone applies." If so,

>my concern about the escort's business immediately kicks in

>for me because now he's backing a truly desperate man into a

>corner and threatening that man's livelihood with a fraud

>filing that the attorney knows will go to the State Bar. In

>that situation, what will that guy try to do? If he really

>wanted to hurt the escort, he could do so by going to various

>authorities. Would he do so? I don't know, but I wouldn't

>discount it.

 

The wildcard here is the SF PD. Like all police agencies, the SF PD has a degree of institutional homophobia. But, a growing percentage of street officers (likely first response) are gay. SF as a place is weirdly tolerant of sin. What goes on behind closed doors stays there. For a long time, the SF PD has tacitly left non-street working boys (and girls) mostly alone. If a neighbor reports a disturbance, they respond. I really doubt the SF police will invest any time at all in hassling Paul.

 

Indeed you can not get blood out of a stone. But, I doubt the client is really so broke he's totally destitute and entirely without funds. He's creating drama and putting the hurt on a decent and regular working guy who can afford the financial harm less than himself. That's just wrong.

 

Deadbeats of the world, unite and pay up.

 

--EBG

[+ deej]

>I'm surprised that sort of attitude is allowed to be expressed

>here. The whole reason I came here for advice was because I

>thought this was a supportive environment where I could get

>honest and respectful responses from other interested persons.

> I did not expect to be treated as though I was a second-class

>human being. Hopefully this is the exception and not the rule

>here.

 

While it isn't encouraged or appreciated, there is no rule here against being an asshole. The rules that protect your privacy and your right to express your opinions apply equally to him.

[Guest paulbenjaminsf]

I guess being an asshole isn't against the law, but most message boards I've seen have had requirements for users that users treat other users with respect. I guess maybe I'm naive but I think, on a board dedicated to discussing male escorts, that an attitude expressed towards another member denigrating that person for their lack of intelligence or education because they have to "F--K to support themselves" is hardly a case of respect.

 

But maybe respect of others is not a requirement on this board. In this case, I expect that assholes find themselves quite at home here. Which in the end will stifle productive discourse and will certainly discourage people like me from coming back for advice. Why would someone want to make themselves vulnerable and share personal details if they can expect people to put them down in return?

 

While I have had many supportive responses to my post, I have also had enough negativity and judgement passed on me and my situation to convince me not to post here again. I appreciate the supportive and even constructively critical ideas, don't get me wrong. But I would perhaps review your policy to let assholes run amok here.

[Guest paulbenjaminsf]

If you'd like to know the amount in question, it was $400. The previous sessions had all been $200. He had just finished a big case, as I mentioned, and spent most of the evening with me, first a couple of hours at his apartment, and then we came back to my place to hang out. I didn't think the exact amount was essential to know to elicit ideas.

[Guest paulbenjaminsf]

Of course I considered this possibility before...and naturally, I realize that I am "operating outside the law." However, I live in San Francisco, where these arrangements are all-but decriminalized. The only prosecution in town here involves street-walkers/hustlers and their clients, who do their business openly on the street.

 

In fact, local judges have been known to rule IN FAVOR of the escort in court. I know of several noteable cases in SF where johns have been ordered to pay what they owe after about five minutes before a judge.

 

Beyond this, my experience is that whenever one is operating outside the law, financial arrangements are even more sacrosanct, and trust is very difficult to restore; this is actually BECAUSE the agreement is not legally enforceable...most people who have some street-smarts know better than to cross a drug-dealer or a hustler, because this would put his physical well-being in jeopardy. I am not a violent person, and I do not advocate or approve of violence, and I will never have anything to do with people who do. I am just pointing out that this is a consideration for most people who realize the risks they are taking when they enter into less-than-legal agreements.

 

My whole point in posting here was simply to find out if anybody had any ideas for me of how to handle this situation effectively and properly. Of course if my efforts are unsuccessful, then I will move on...I'm not vindictive and I'm not interested in futile efforts...but I do think that this individual rightfully owes me some money and I would be a rather ineffective person if I didn't even make some attempts at recovering it.

 

I think maybe I'm miscommunicating here because so many people seem to misunderstand what I'm really all about. I've never said I'll never drop this. I've never said I don't realize that escort work is technically illegal. I've never said I have never considered this was a possible situation. I just wanted some ideas as to how I could possibly recover the money without resorting to ridiculous or embarrassing means. I'm an intelligent and sensitive guy, but I also stand up for myself, when appropriate.

[woodlawn]

>In fact, local judges have been known to rule IN FAVOR of the

>escort in court. I know of several noteable cases in SF where

>johns have been ordered to pay what they owe after about five

>minutes before a judge.

 

Since prostitution is illegal in California, that could only happen if both sides stick to the fiction that the transaction was "for time only."

 

 

>My whole point in posting here was simply to find out if

>anybody had any ideas for me of how to handle this situation

>effectively and properly.

 

The best suggestion you got in this thread came from Boston Guy, who correctly (in my view) pointed out that responding to the client's hostile remarks with more hostility is not likely to make him inclined to do anything for you, while responding in the opposite manner just might.

 

> I'm an

>intelligent and sensitive guy, but I also stand up for myself,

>when appropriate.

 

I think you are a little too sensitive if you can't stand having anyone address you in terms that you don't find respectful. Some of the posters here don't have a problem with what escorts do for a living, and some clearly do. You or anyone else who does not want to encounter a wide range of opinions on just about anything would be well advised to avoid this board.

[Flower]

> I'm, certainly agreeable to a cessation

>of attacks against each other, however. Don't respond to my

>posts, and in return, I won't respond to your posts. That

>should work for both of us. :+

 

Agreed--we'll agree to disagree but no attacks or replies--a non-aggression pact }(

[Flower]

Cherokee ancestors? Oh no!!!!! --so do I--could we be related?}( Maybe that's where the gay gene came in

[mattgunther]

Flower,

How would Paul prove to the court and his client's supervisor that Paul is really owed the money? From what Paul said I didn't see that he had any evidence (emails, documents etc.) that the client promised to give Paul $400 in exchange for Paul's time. Without such evidence how could Paul recover if the client denied he owed Paul anything? I think Paul's client will know that niether the court nor his supervisor will take Paul's word on faith.