GAY MARRIAGE IN SPAIN

[trilingual]

The on-line edition of El Mundo (http://www.elmundo.es), a widely-circulated right-of-center national daily paper in Spain, reports that the new government will introduce legislation on Friday amending the Spanish Civil Code to provide full marriage equality to same-sex couples, including pensions, inheritance and adoption. The text isn't included in the article, but presumably the Civil Code will be amended to change terms like "a man and a woman" to "persons." The changes will apply to transexuals as well as to gays and lesbians.

 

The article reports recent polls of the Spanish public on the issues of gay rights and gay marriage. According to the polls by the Center for Sociological Investigation taken in June 2004, 68% of Spaniards polled support equal rights for homosexuals, and 66% supports same-sex marriage.

 

When this proposal becomes law (as it is most likely to do, because Spain is a parliamentary democracy and the current Socialist government has a majority in Parliament) Spain will become the largest nation so far to fully legalize gay marriage. This is a stunning historical development, considering that Spain traditionally has been a conservative nation with an extremely conservative Catholic tradition (think Inquisition, Opus Dei, and Franco). Until very recently the Catholic Church was the established religion, with vast public financial support. One has to ask what's happened in Spain in less than 30 years to cause such a tectonic shift in its views of morality and citizenship that's in such stark contrast to the public mood in the U.S.

 

It's notable that of the other two countries that have fully legalized marriage, Belgium is a Catholic nation (which had an extremely conservative and ascetic Catholic monarch in the late King Baudouin) and the Netherlands is nearly half Catholic. In Canada, which is in the process of legalizing gay marriage, a major part of the impetus for the changes came from Quebec, a predominantly Catholic province that, until about 40 years ago, was under the thumb of an extremely conservative Catholic clergy.

 

In the Americas, proposals similar to the one about to be adopted in Spain have been in discussion in Brazil and Argentina. Both countries, of course, are predominantly Catholic (in Argentina the church is still virtually established). Like Spain, both Brazil and Argentina have recently emerged from long, brutally repressive military dictatorships, and both countries have since looked very much to Spain as the model of how to successfully make the transition from an authoritarian regime to a modern fully democratic society. Changes in Spain are extremely influential in both countries and virtually everywhere else in Latin America. Once Spain changes its law, it's very possible that similar legislation that has been languishing in Brazil (the world's largest Catholic country, with nearly 180,000,000 people) and in Argentina will finally be adopted. Neither country seemed to want to be the first "big" Catholic country to legalize gay marriage, but once a bastion of Catholicism like Spain takes the plunge, they'll have sufficient political "cover" to take similar action.

 

Stay tuned. This story is only beginning, and we are eyewitnesses to history. . .

[Ignoto]

> This is a stunning historical development,

>considering that Spain traditionally has been a conservative

>nation with an extremely conservative Catholic tradition

>(think Inquisition, Opus Dei, and Franco).

 

Watch what they do, not what they say. Church attendance in Spain is 25% (of the population attending weekly); in the U.S., it's 44%.

 

Franco was the lesser of two evils (compared with communism) for the Catholic Church in the 1930s, but Catholic leaders later opposed his dictatorship.

 

Still, it was not expected 30 years ago that Spain would lead Europe into the 21st Century. But don't worry, there will always be one country in the world that remains hostile to gay rights.

 

Iraq.

[Guest zipperzone]

>Stay tuned. This story is only beginning, and we are

>eyewitnesses to history. . .

 

You're right - it is only beginning and the next decade should be very interesting. It's too bad that the US is not among those nations leading the way. Although there is some progress there, it's mimimal compared to other more enlightened countries. The idiotic Christian right with their Martha Mitchell glasses and their big hair will do whatever is necessary to see it doesn't get an easy ride. Vivla Bush!

[Guest zipperzone]

>Church attendance in

>Spain is 25% (of the population attending weekly); in the

>U.S., it's 44%.

 

And therein lies most of the problem.

 

>But don't worry, there will

>always be one country in the world that remains hostile to gay

>rights.

>

>Iraq.

 

I know it's very uncaring of me, but quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass if Iraq ever embrasses gay marriage

[trilingual]

BTW, another interesting bit about this development is that it isn't a "stealth" initiative. The Spanish prime minister, Zapatero, promised to do this in his electoral campaign, along with getting Spain out of Iraq. Spaniards knew exactly what they were voting for when he ran, and he's delivering on his campaign promises, one by one. Liberalizing abortion laws is next. The Catholic hierarchy in Spain is having apoplexy, as you can imagine. . .

[Ignoto]

>I know it's very uncaring of me, but quite frankly I don't

>give a rat's ass if Iraq ever embraces gay marriage

 

 

Neither do I. But I do care about my neighbor's son, whom I watched grow up the last 20 years, and the 1000 other young Americans who died a senseless death there.

[Guest zipperzone]

>>I know it's very uncaring of me, but quite frankly I don't

>>give a rat's ass if Iraq ever embraces gay marriage

>

>

>Neither do I. But I do care about my neighbor's son, whom I

>watched grow up the last 20 years, and the 1000 other young

>Americans who died a senseless death there.

 

Of course you do and so do all of us. My comment was not meant to say I don't care about what is happening in Iraq in general - just that I know the chances of that religion ever coming to terms with homosexuality is less than zero, and as THAT doesn't affect me, "I don't give a rat's ass" on that particular score.

 

With regards to you neighbor's 20 year old son - he shouldn't be there in the first place...... and we all know who is to blame for that, don't we. HE'S GOT TO GO!

[trilingual]

RE:TODAY'S THE DAY. . .

 

That the Spanish Cabinet approved the proposed amendments to the Civil Code that will permit same-sex marriages, and equalize the rights of such couples in all respects to those of heterosexual couples, including inhertiance, pension and adoption rights. The new Spanish government has understood that "equal" means exactly that. Not "more equal" or "less equal", just "EQUAL".

 

The proposal must still be approved by Parliament, but in the parliamentary system that is assured, because the government is the majority in Parliament. It's hoped that the changes will become effective by New Year's.

 

Meanwhile, the newspapers report some serious celebrating on the streets of Chueca, Madrid's gay neighborhood!

 

Too bad the U.S. is still so far behind, but at least the threat of an anti-gay constitutional amendment has receded for the time being. Perhaps when Americans see that the world hasn't ended in Holland and Belgium and Spain and Canada and Massachusetts and Vermont, people will become more accepting.

[+ Axiom2001]

>>I know it's very uncaring of me, but quite frankly I don't

>>give a rat's ass if Iraq ever embraces gay marriage

>

>

>Neither do I. But I do care about my neighbor's son, whom I

>watched grow up the last 20 years, and the 1000 other young

>Americans who died a senseless death there.

 

 

 

Amen! I firmly agree with you! Their blood is on Bush's hands! Last night he was a total embarrassment when he attempted to atone for his arrogant, bellicose attitude when it came to the validity of having sent our young men and women into harms way!

 

I know this doesn't pertain to the original topic, but I decided intead of my creating a separate response, I'd attach my agreement on here.

[VaHawk]

>I know it's very uncaring of me, but quite frankly I don't

>give a rat's ass if Iraq ever embrasses gay marriage

 

Why? If you insist on gay marriage rights, then you should insist that they be granted to all citizens of the world in all nations, regardless of the religious affiliation of the majority of the citizens of that nation. According to your own statements, you don't care if nations such as Iraq which are mostly Islamic don't embrace gay marriage because their religion will never accept it, BUT you rant and rail against the U.S. for doing the same just because the majority of the citizens are Christians, who will ALSO never embrace gay marriage.

 

Nations predominantly Islamic never accepting gay marriage are OK! The U.S. which is predominantly Christian never accepting gay marriage is BAD!! Conclusion: Islamic beliefs okay, Christian beliefs not okay. What an anti-American and anti-Christian attitude.

 

When you as a Canadian citizen, get to participate in the U.S. election process to choose the members of Congress, that ultimately determine the policies of the United States according to the wishes of the citizens that they represent, then please feel free to spew such vitriol again, as at that point it just might be part of the solution!

[trilingual]

BUT you rant and rail against

>the U.S. for doing the same just because the majority of the

>citizens are Protestant Christians, who will ALSO never

>embrace gay marriage.

 

Really? Why wouldn't they? What makes them different from the Protestants who are the majority in Canada (at least in the English-speaking provinces)? They've managed to embrace gay marriage. So has the Protestant majority in the Netherlands. And goodness knows, the Catholic Church considers the idea of gay marriage to be anathema, yet gay marriage is being legalized in predominantly Catholic countries like Belgium and Spain. So general public opposition to gay marriage doesn't seem to have anything to do with being Protestant or Catholic. It seems to have much more to do with the country you live in. What is it about the U.S. that creates so many backwards-looking, narrow-minded people? (Obviously, they exist in other Western countries, too, but they don't seem to have become as politically powerful as in the U.S.)

[Guest zipperzone]

Well well hawk - here we go again!

 

>>I know it's very uncaring of me, but quite frankly I don't

>>give a rat's ass if Iraq ever embrasses gay marriage

>

>Why? If you insist on gay marriage rights, then you should

>insist that they be granted to all citizens of the world in

>all nations, regardless of the religious affiliation of the

>majority of the citizens of that nation.

 

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It is, however, not mine.

 

>According to your

>own statements, you don't care if nations such as Iraq which

>are mostly Islamic don't embrace gay marriage because their

>religion will never accept it,

 

That's right. No point in trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

 

>BUT you rant and rail against

>the U.S. for doing the same just because the majority of the

>citizens are Christians, who will ALSO never embrace gay

>marriage.

 

Well, first of all, I wouldn't tend to describe my stating my opinions as "ranting and railing" That's more your style.

 

Secondly - you are dead wrong when you say "the majority of the citizens (meaning American citizens) are Christians, who will ALSO never embrace gay marriage".

 

In case it hasn't dawned on you, many millions of Christians in your country DO ACCEPT the concept of gay marriage. It's just the extreme right wing nuts that are having a problem with it. Unfortunately, your Leader, happens to be one of them.

 

>Nations predominantly Islamic never accepting gay marriage are

>OK! The U.S. which is predominantly Christian never accepting

>gay marriage is BAD!! Conclusion: Islamic beliefs okay,

>Christian beliefs not okay. What an anti-American and

>anti-Christian attitude.

 

If you see this as anti-American, so be it. However, it's not and you shouldn't be so quick to reach conclusions that are unfounded.

 

>When you as a Canadian citizen, get to participate in the U.S.

>election process to choose the members of Congress,

 

Now, now Hawk - you're just being silly. Citizens of another country will never be in a position to participate in a U.S. election process, and you know it.

 

>then please feel free to spew such vitriol again, as at that

>point it just might be part of the solution!

 

Now what in the world does that last bit mean? I know vitriol is a favorite word of yours but I really don't think it is applicable in this particular discussion.

 

It is no secret that we have had differances of opinion in the past but I really feel that we should strive to discuss these in a more adult manner. I can't help but remember the several instances in past years where you showed your disdain of Canada and Canadians in general. I never took those remarks personally and would never have thought to call you on your right to express them. I would like to think I would receive the same courtesy from you.

[+ Charlie]

RE:TODAY'S THE DAY. . .

 

In most of the nominally Christian countries of the West, the percentage of the population that actually practices has been a minority for decades. Even in a place like Poland, where church attendance was very high as recently as the 1980s, it turned out to be largely a substitute for opposition to the communist government, and has fallen off rapidly with democratization. Therefore, it's not surprising that when the church becomes the establishment, a majority of the population rejects their attempt to impose dogma on government. In America, however, where there is no established church and people are free to choose any religion or none, a much higher percentage of Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims take their religion seriously, since it provides an important part of one's identity (there's nothing special about being a Catholic in Spain, where almost everyone else is, too, but being a Baptist in Virginia or a Lutheran in Iowa gives one a firm place in a shifting society). Since gay marriage is anathema to all the major Western religions, I wouldn't be surprised if the USA, the first country to provide the theory of equality to the world, is the last Western nation to provide the reality to gays, just as it was one of the last to abolish slavery.

[Karl-G]

44% attend Church in U.S.

 

Be very careful. I'm not sure where you got these statistics, but anything in those numbers are REPORTED activities, not actual activities. That is what people SAY when they are interviewed on the telephone or whatever; what they DO is quite different. When sociologists have stood outside church doors on Sunday and counted actual people attending church, numbers for both Catholics and Protestants drop below 20%. For some reason people want to believe for themselves and want others to believe that they go to church frequently when as a matter of fact this is not the truth. In Europe actual church attendance is much lower; just go to a Sunday service in any country in Europe. You and three little old ladies will be alone in the church.