Question for the Italians

[TruthBTold]

I'm Italian (but there are so many types). However, quickly put, sauce is poured on pasta which is in a big bowl. The pasta is dished out to individual plates and people take more sauce if they want. And then they take cheese, probably Parmesan, which is passed around. Very peasant. God, I'm hungry.

[+ quoththeraven]

Since my sister's son had his DNA processed, and he's only from the UK (and Ireland), I assume I'm in a similar genetic stream.

My adopted home town of Worcester, MA has one kind of Restaurant: Italian. I've heard tomato based sauce called "Red gravy" as opposed to beef based "Brown gravy."

 

I saw a patient preoperatively once. At the end of my interview, she said "You Paisan?" I stumbled, "uh ... no ..." and she said "You look Paisan!" [The British think I'm one of them when I'm in the UK]. I was later told that she was giving me a compliment.

 

... and my local Jewish friends used to ask me when the High Holy Days were.

 

So go figure.

 

Welcome to the club! I am of Korean, Irish and German extraction (what a combination), and I've been mistaken for Italian, Jewish (which my German ancestors might have been if you go back far enough), and Ukrainian. The face and monolid eyes that marked me as Asian as a button-nosed kid no longer look all that Asian now that I've grown into my mother's nose, wear glasses, and have jowls.

 

My hairdresser, whose family moved to the US from Naples when she was an older teen, calls sauce gravy. We once had a long discussion about that. The Italian-Americans I knew growing up in upstate New York called it sauce. It may be a mid-Atlantic thing, with New York City serving as the dividing line.

[flguy]

True Bolognese is not "saucy" at all, its very thick with very little tomato in the mix. It has beef and pork, mirepoix, chicken liver, milk, a little tomato, lots of broth etc. I takes HOURS to cook down with lots of stirring, is a pain to make and simply in my opinion not worth it. It tastes nothing like meat sauce.

[+ Italiano]

True Bolognese is not "saucy" at all, its very thick with very little tomato in the mix. It has beef and pork, mirepoix, chicken liver, milk, a little tomato, lots of broth etc. I takes HOURS to cook down with lots of stirring, is a pain to make and simply in my opinion not worth it. It tastes nothing like meat sauce.

 

Chicken liver??.......It's not worthy??...I guess taste is an acquired thing!

 

A GOOD ragù alla bolognese, Italian (not Italian-American..) way is absolutely delicious.

Yes you need a little broth and a a little milk but you need red wine, essential for a real bolognese.

And no, you don't need HOURS to cook it and it's not a pain if you like cooking.

 

This is an authentic Italian great recipe, dubbed into English from an Italian excellent youtube blog:

 

[mike carey]

This is an authentic Italian great recipe, dubbed into English from an Italian excellent youtube blog:

I have a recipe that is almost identical to that, from a Time Life Italian recipe book I bought 40 years ago. The differences: garlic and some herbs (oregano, basil, thyme, bay leaves, rosemary - whatever you have); crushed tomatoes [canned or fresh] as well as or instead of the tomato paste. I'm never precise about the quantities, and I'm inclined to add all the liquids and let it cook down. Adding them gradually looks like a good idea.

 

And yes, fry off some chicken livers, finely chop them and add them towards the end. If you haven't become accustomed to the taste, mince them really finely and it will add 'something' to the flavour rather than having the distinct liver taste if it's chopped more coarsely. And cream is the way to go rather than milk!

 

I have half a kilo of veal and pork mince in the fridge, so tomorrow...!

[+ Italiano]

And cream is the way to go rather than milk!

 

 

Cream?.....

 

Pleeeeease don't tell me you add cream also to carbonara sauce....

[mike carey]

Cream?.....

 

Pleeeeease don't tell me you add cream also to carbonara sauce

No! If there's cream it's not carbonara. But I have been known to make up my own pasta sauces with cream in them. And the video did say you could use cream instead of milk in ragu Bolognese.

[whipped guy]

Well, it's definitely true!

I am Italian born and raised (in Milan) and living in NYC for the past 16 years. Having embraced for marriage an Italian-American family arrived in USA 45 years ago and settled in Brooklyn, I have learned to discover habits and things that definitely don't exist (anymore) in most parts of Italy!

And let's not talk about all the Italian-American slang...

 

No, in Italy generally speaking the sauce (gravy???...HAAAAAA!!!!) it's put on top of the pasta al dente, but believe me, it's not a sin at all to add it in the pot (NEVER TOO MUCH SAUCE LIKE THEY l HERE, PLEEEEEASE!!) and stir it, as now it's actually quite "fashionable" to do that. There is this newish trendy cooking term called "mantecare" which means to have the pasta and the sauce sauté for a minute with the sauce to suck up the flavor.

And then putting it on the dish (piatto) now it's called "spiattare"....

 

Generally Italians don't eat leftover reheated pasta. What they do (especially in the South) is mixing it with 1 or 2 beaten eggs with more parmesan cheese, salt and pepper, and make in a pan a "frittata di pasta", which is really delicious.

 

Sugo and Ragù are not the same, or better said, Ragù is one of many ways to make sugo. Sugo is a general name for a tomato sauce. Ragù is in the north what here is called Bolognese, in the South a Ragù is cooking a piece of meat (not ground) in the sugo until it becomes flaky and then eat it as a second course.

 

Italians have always a first course of pasta or rice (rice more in the north than south), and then a second course with beef, fish, chicken and a side dish. And possibly a dessert.

And generally obesity is not a generalized problem like here.....

 

And no, in Italy they don't eat "spaghetti with meatballs" or "spaghetti bolognese"!

In Italy nobody knows what "fettuccine Alfredo" are. Nobody eats "Ceasar's salad".

 

Thank you [uSER=3916]@xafnndapp[/uSER] ! S0meone finally got it right... and I could quote some of your other postings as well!! LOL! (I having been away and not paying attention just noticed this thread.) A couple of more things to add to your list of no "spaghetti with meatballs", "fettuccine Alfredo", or "Ceasar salad"... Italians in Italy do not serve chicken in a tomato sauce with pasta if I am correct. Also, cappuccino is something that is had with biscotti for breakfast as opposed to an after dinner treat as in the USA. Again please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Incidentally, being born in the USA I am guilty of partaking in some of the above... you know chicken parmegiano with a side of spaghetti or ziti! Also, there are so many recipes that were brought over in the early Twentieth Century that probably don't currently exist in Italy. My ancestry is Provincia di Napoli and Provnicia di Salerno so we often tend to use more sauce than would be used in the north of Italy... and yes, we always called it sauce. Of course on Sunday mom always made a BIG sauce! The only oil in the house was cold pressed olive oil. I now only use extra virgin from a special supplier who gets it directly from Italy. Otherwise what you buy in the stores today is crap... just look at the fine print on the Filippo Berio bottle... Yuck... and that was the only brand mia nonna would buy years and years ago!

 

In any event, I really like when an Italian restaurant has it's menu set up in the true Italian manner with Antipasto (appetizer), Primo Piatto (first course of pasta or rice), Secondo Piatto (second course of Meat etc.), Contorni (side dishes), and of course Dolce (dessert). Yes, that's the big Italian meal!

 

Incidentally, most American recipes for a Bolognese sauce that is mentioned above are basically a Sloppy Joe mix thrown over pasta!

[mike carey]

Almost all migrants in settler countries forget or disregard things that were firm rules at home. If they set up restaurants they adapt foods to local tastes and ingredients. The rest of the community will adopt aspects of the immigrant cuisines, and serious chefs, especially in the Anglophone settler countries created fusion cuisines. @whipped guy, people in Australia drank milk coffees before there was any substantial Italian influence here (and used horrible liquid coffee concentrates to make them), when 'coffee' meant instant, most people had a little milk in it, so it was only natural that when espresso became common here, the drink of choice was a milk coffee and we drank it at any time of the day. The fact that Italians (or the French) were aghast that we would drink breakfast coffee at any time of day worried us not one jot. Similarly, pizza in the US has a life of its own, often with only a passing resemblance of an Italian pizza.

 

Purists may resent where our food cultures have gone, but in both our countries we have an incredible variety of cuisines (of varying degrees of authenticity) that we love. [Caesar salad is an American invention, an Italian saying that it doesn't exist makes as much sense as one saying that hot dogs don't exist.]

[whipped guy]

Almost all migrants in settler countries forget or disregard things that were firm rules at home. If they set up restaurants they adapt foods to local tastes and ingredients. The rest of the community will adopt aspects of the immigrant cuisines, and serious chefs, especially in the Anglophone settler countries created fusion cuisines. @whipped guy, people in Australia drank milk coffees before there was any substantial Italian influence here (and used horrible liquid coffee concentrates to make them), when 'coffee' meant instant, most people had a little milk in it, so it was only natural that when espresso became common here, the drink of choice was a milk coffee and we drank it at any time of the day. The fact that Italians (or the French) were aghast that we would drink breakfast coffee at any time of day worried us not one jot. Similarly, pizza in the US has a life of its own, often with only a passing resemblance of an Italian pizza.

 

Purists may resent where our food cultures have gone, but in both our countries we have an incredible variety of cuisines (of varying degrees of authenticity) that we love. [Caesar salad is an American invention, an Italian saying that it doesn't exist makes as much sense as one saying that hot dogs don't exist.]

Well based on your posting I decided to have an American version of Italian cuisine for dinner. Chicken parmigiano style, with a side of potato gnocchi... dripping in a tomato basil sauce made from fresh tomatoes from my garden... Okay if I wanted to break all the rules I would have opened a jar of Rugu or Prego... but I'm not that desperate to break the rules. Damn, the easiest thing to make is a good basic Italian tomato sauce... Ideally from ripe home grown tomatoes, but even tomatoes from a can are better than something out of a jar. Again, read the ingredients of said jar. Grandma never used high fructose corn syrup or the gods only know what else in her sauce! I might even have a cappuccino for an after dinner treat. Things evolve and evolve differently in different locals. That makes life and especially the food aspect of it interesting

[TruthBTold]

I am 100% Italian and I must confess fortunately or unfortunately we Italians are not a precise people. That's why you will have different recipes for different families. Buon Appetito.

[whipped guy]

I am 100% Italian and I must confess fortunately or unfortunately we Italians are not a precise people. That's why you will have different recipes for different families. Buon Appetito.

That is so true! I recently spoke with someone who told me about the "pizza rustica" that she was had made for Easter. That is a pie with various types of meat and cheese. It was absolutely like nothing I had ever hear of! Ever! While things are changing, in the good old days virtually each town had its own traditions and dialect. This certainly was reflected in the foods that they prepared. I recall my paternal grandfather making fun of the way my maternal grandmother spoke. They both spoke a very similar Italian dialect, but the words were inflected slightly differently. My grandfather who lived at the top of the mountain said that those who lived at the bottom of the mountain on the seashore sounded as if they were crying when they spoke! There recipes differed as well. Personally I preferred the recipes form the base of the mountain! However, I was very lucky to have experienced both. After all, as my grandfather also said that, "Not everyone likes German , French, or whatever type of cooking. However, everyone likes Italian cuisine!"

[TruthBTold]

I always thought it was because Italy was such a long country. But then my mother told me that her family who lived in Calabria (the end of the toe on the boot) could hardly understand my father's family even though they lived about 50 miles away. However it was across the strait on Sicily. She said each family would just sit and stare at each other.

[whipped guy]

I always thought it was because Italy was such a long country. But then my mother told me that her family who lived in Calabria (the end of the toe on the boot) could hardly understand my father's family even though they lived about 50 miles away. However it was across the strait on Sicily. She said each family would just sit and stare at each other.

So true! So many words are unique to a specific area. Example: The Italian word for knife is coltello, I learned the dialect word as curtill', in Sicilian it is something like cutidra... not sure exactly, but a completely different word to be sure! Needless to say it can be quite confusing!

[Bearofdistinction]

I wonder if thats an east coast thing.

 

Hugs,

Greg

 

In Philly its

[MikeBiDude]

I have a recipe that is almost identical to that, from a Time Life Italian recipe book I bought 40 years ago. The differences: garlic and some herbs (oregano, basil, thyme, bay leaves, rosemary - whatever you have); crushed tomatoes [canned or fresh] as well as or instead of the tomato paste. I'm never precise about the quantities, and I'm inclined to add all the liquids and let it cook down. Adding them gradually looks like a good idea.

 

And yes, fry off some chicken livers, finely chop them and add them towards the end. If you haven't become accustomed to the taste, mince them really finely and it will add 'something' to the flavour rather than having the distinct liver taste if it's chopped more coarsely. And cream is the way to go rather than milk!

 

I have half a kilo of veal and pork mince in the fridge, so tomorrow...!

Mike you got me thinking when you mentioned the Time Life Italian recipe book of 40 years ago.

 

If it's the same series I'm thinking of, it was an international cooking series, and each hard back "picture book" came with a companion smaller spiral book with just the recipes. Anyway I was out of town this morning when I read your post, got home later, looked for and found the spiral bound recipe book and the bolognese recipe and found it!! The page for the bolognese is well stained from my prior use, and is almost exactly as you (and the video) describe, yes with dairy and chicken livers.

 

Anyway, made me smile, I've got like 4-5 of that series recipe books around, I don't know what happened tom the full color hard bound books went.

[UnstableAtom]

I am 100% Italian and I must confess fortunately or unfortunately we Italians are not a precise people. That's why you will have different recipes for different families. Buon Appetito.

I'm 100 percent Italian as well! Just originated from the mountain region from a small little town. I haven't really ever tried any other neat pasta sauce combination other than pesto though..

[mike carey]

If it's the same series I'm thinking of, it was an international cooking series, and each hard back "picture book" came with a companion smaller spiral book with just the recipes.

Yep, that's the series and I have five or six of them. I still have both books for each!

[whipped guy]

So true! So many words are unique to a specific area. Example: The Italian word for knife is coltello, I learned the dialect word as curtill', in Sicilian it is something like cutidra... not sure exactly, but a completely different word to be sure! Needless to say it can be quite confusing!

For @TruthBTold

I just was able to look up the Sicilian dialect word for knife... It is cutiddu. I guess I was close, but no cigar! So light years away from the Italian coltello! One reason your mother's family could not understand your father's family!

 

Incidentally, the website that I found notes that of all the Romance languages it is actually the Sicilian dialect that is closest to the original Latin from which they are all derived. An interesting fact!

[MikeBiDude]

Yep, that's the series and I have five or six of them. I still have both books for each!

Somehow - the originals are from I was still living at home - I only have the smaller companion spiral found books. Every recipe I've cooked from these has been good to great, my family favorite scalloped potatoes comes from the French one, my Peking Duck from the Chinese. I seem to have Chinese/Japanese/French/Italian.

[+ Italiano]

No! If there's cream it's not carbonara. But I have been known to make up my own pasta sauces with cream in them. And the video did say you could use cream instead of milk in ragu Bolognese.

 

You are right, but in the original Italian version she discourages cream; funny and bizarre that in the English dubbing they propose milk OR cream...

[+ Italiano]

I'm 100 percent Italian as well! Just originated from the mountain region from a small little town. I haven't really ever tried any other neat pasta sauce combination other than pesto though..

 

Man, you need to try new things! There are soooo many authentic pasta sauces without tomato sauce!...

[+ Italiano]

Almost all migrants in settler countries forget or disregard things that were firm rules at home. If they set up restaurants they adapt foods to local tastes and ingredients. The rest of the community will adopt aspects of the immigrant cuisines, and serious chefs, especially in the Anglophone settler countries created fusion cuisines. @whipped guy, people in Australia drank milk coffees before there was any substantial Italian influence here (and used horrible liquid coffee concentrates to make them), when 'coffee' meant instant, most people had a little milk in it, so it was only natural that when espresso became common here, the drink of choice was a milk coffee and we drank it at any time of the day. The fact that Italians (or the French) were aghast that we would drink breakfast coffee at any time of day worried us not one jot. Similarly, pizza in the US has a life of its own, often with only a passing resemblance of an Italian pizza.

 

Purists may resent where our food cultures have gone, but in both our countries we have an incredible variety of cuisines (of varying degrees of authenticity) that we love. [Caesar salad is an American invention, an Italian saying that it doesn't exist makes as much sense as one saying that hot dogs don't exist.]

 

You are somehow right, even if in Italy we have a fabulous cuisine, it is also true that Italians (in Italy) are generally very limited with other food which is not Italian. And Italians vacationing abroad mostly can't adapt to the local ethnic cuisine. Their limitation!

Living abroad for maaany years (but going back to see my family in Milano at least twice a year) I learned to really appreciate other food from the one I grew up with.

Still, even if I also learned to put sometimes a few different items in the same plate (blasphemy in Italy!) personally I prefer to keep some recipes as authentic as possible. If not, Olive Garden becomes an Italian restaurant....

I also lived 10 years in Mexico City and can't really get used to "Tex-Mex" variations of an amazing authentic cuisine like the one in the Country south of the border.

Of course migrants to US and other Countries somehow settled and combined their own habits with some taken form the "host" Country, same thing is valid for language. Even if I learned the Southern Italian/American lingo from my acquired Brooklyn family-in-law, as Italian is still my first language I prefer not to "mix" the two languages and I do call a car's trunk "portabagagli" and not "tronco"!

 

And I don't think that either whipped guy or myself stated that Ceasar's salad doesn't exist. It's just that some people think it's an Italian dish (like spaghetti with meatballs), and it's not, and you don't find it in Italy.

 

By the way, this is a cute video about Italian "rules"

 

[whipped guy]

Still, even if I also learned to put sometimes a few different items in the same plate (blasphemy in Italy!) personally I prefer to keep some recipes as authentic as possible. If not, Olive Garden becomes an Italian restaurant....

 

BIG LOL! I have not been to an Olive Garden in ages, but there is/was one dish that I really do like that combines Shrimp and certain veggies such as peppers and mushrooms in an arrabbiata tomato based sauce over pasta. However, the type of pasta used always seemed totally improper to me given my background as it is served with penne pasta!

 

Now in my family any seafood based sauce was always served with something such as spaghetti, linguine, fusilli lunghi, vermicelli, or any long and thin pasta! Fortunately, it is possible to request a different pasta at the infamous Olive Garden as penne pasta would simply not taste or even look correct in my book.

 

Hopefully [uSER=3916]@xafnndapp[/uSER] will concur! If not I just might have to retool my Italian credentials! Also, NEVER cheese on any such seafood based dish. Again, I hope that is still the authentic Italian custom!

 

Still, being brought up in America I do break the "rules" at times and as such things evolve! Heck if each and everyone who posts here did not "break the rules" this forum would not even exist!

[TruthBTold]

[quote="xafnndapp, post: 1082954

By the way, this is a cute video about Italian "rules"

 

 

 

Very cute video. Another rule that involves home cuisine. If you invite people to your home for dinner not only must you make enough to satiate the crowd you must make enough for everyone to take some home. Otherwise you will be talked about in the village.

 

Also something that is not a rule but I think is interesting is the societal structure is based on geography. Italy obviously is a long boot shape. Class (tho this is changing) is relegated in a north/south direction so that the further north you are born the higher class you are seen to be. Sicily is considered to be as low as you can go even though it really is parallel with some of the southern Italian regions. If someone asks where in Italy you are from, you always say you are from the place highest up the boot because that will give you the highest class. And if you are Sicilian, just forget about it.