Changing attitude/criminal law with HIV+

[jackjackjack]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/crime/article57147868.html

Interesting article involving the military and hiv military personnel.

[rvwnsd]

Interesting, indeed. I noticed the beginning of the article stated the defendant engaged in unprotected oral and anal sex but at the end of the article the defendant is said to have engaged in unprotected oral and protected anal sex. Wonder which is correct.

[stop]

I have been positive for over 25 years, and unless they find an outright cure, I will never see this any way other than a criminal offense for not disclosing your status. As with all law I do think there is some grey area with the receiving party (so to speak) and their actions but both parties are responsible for knowing their HIV status and disclosing it.

 

Yes I get the argument that you should treat everybody as if they are HIV +

Yes I get the argument that decriminalizing it would start to remove the stigma

Yes we have medication now that will allow most to live a "normal" life

 

But here is my issue with those arguments.

 

Medication allows me to live a normal life: The mediation is so expensive. I spend upwards of 7000 a year on just medication from a pharmacy. That is not including Imodium or other OTC stuff that i need to take to counter act the side effects of the meds. I should also state that I have excellent insurance but with co-pays I still have to pay out a lot. Imagine if I didn't have great insurance or any insurance. Plus I have to see the doctor at a minimum of 4 times a year for blood work which is also not cheep. Annually I pay out my full copay in the first few months of the year just in lab work and drug co-pays. This adds up. I calculated once that I was going to pay out about 750,000 in medical costs just for being HIV that I would not have had to pay otherwise. But I am a lucky one, I take the least potent HIV meds, and did not have to start meds right away so I have better chance of lasting longer on low side effect medication. What about the people that aren't as lucky, their medical costs are much higher than mine.

 

I have to take medication daily for the rest of my life. Daily. I am down to 1 pill for HIV meds once a day, but I also take 3 other pills to counteract side effects I have daily. Other HIV meds are multiple times per day. My current regime went to a combined pill about 4 years ago. Prior to that I was taking pills 3x a day with food. So imagine getting up at 5 AM and having to force down food when you are not hungry so you can take a pill. I know others that are not on the same meds as me that have to get up at midnight every night to take their pills with food.

 

So this is not a normal life.

 

Treat everybody as if they are HIV+, so this is a great argument that people have and I agree you should do this but the flips side is people will believe other people what about that 19/20 year old dating a doctor that says he is HIV negative and after dating for awhile he finds out that actually the guys is HIV +? sorry i think that is criminal. That doctor knowingly infected somebody that he had told he was negative. Yes they should have been wearing rubbers but he also has an obligation to tell the truth in my opinion. What about the men that don't even know their status and say that they are negative. Don't they have a responsibility to society to start getting treatment? You are less likely to pass on the virus when you have no viral load but if you are not getting treatment then your viral load will not be undetectable.

 

finally the removing the stigma argument. I really don't see this happening just because its not illegal. Part of the stigma is because people still see HIV as AIDS which are two different things. They still see AIDS as the gay cancer which is interesting because there are more straight people in the world with HIV and AIDS than gay people. Lots of people still feel we deserve this. That is the mindset that needs to be changed. Peoples perceptions about being gay. There is the same perception with HepC. A lot of folks think that those people that have it deserve it because they used drugs with needles. Those drug addicts deserve what they get for shooting up drugs. I have to admit I used to feel that way for awhile until i met somebody that had HepC and realized how wrong I was. I am not saying that all HIV + people need to come out and all of a sudden people will be drinking coke and holding hands singing "I'd like to teach the world to sing" but I don't think that decriminalizing HIV will have any effect on peoples perceptions. Either they will look at me with pity or they will look at me and think I deserve it or they will look at me and not care. They have already made up their mind we aren't going to really change it at this point. The newer generation could care less and the older generation is dying off. time is going to change the perceptions of HIV for us.

 

I think this guy in the article deserves what the court gives him. He was told he was HIV and he was actually ordered not to have unprotected sex and to tell his partners and he didn't do either. Do his partners have some responsibility to take on insisting they use a rubber, sure they do but does that absolve the guy who lied about his status? No don't think it does.

[caliguy]

The sad thing is for those that don't know their status the law is on their side. However, they're mostly the ones out there passing it out.

 

Once you're known to be HIV+ you'll face stigma and possibly even prison. Safe/unsafe it makes no difference once you're accused.

[stop]

The sad thing is for those that don't know their status the law is on their side. However, they're mostly the ones out there passing it out.

 

Until these laws change though there's no incentive for them to get tested. Once you're known to be HIV+ you'll face stigma and possibly even prison. Safe/unsafe it makes no difference once your accused.

 

You make a good point but I think the courts should go further and I think somebody that doesn't know their status should be prosecuted. I don't mean somebody that recently serioconverted but they can tell with fairly good accuracy how long somebody had had it. I know that sounds rough but people have to take responsibility for their actions.

[caliguy]

You make a good point but I think the courts should go further and I think somebody that doesn't know their status should be prosecuted. I don't mean somebody that recently serioconverted but they can tell with fairly good accuracy how long somebody had had it. I know that sounds rough but people have to take responsibility for their actions.

Well, then there's going to be allot of arrests then. If you choose to be unsafe you take the good with the bad. You don't go to the authorities looking for revenge when the bad happens though.

 

I would tell people in states that have very tough penalties to just never disclose anything to anyone. You're just setting yourself up for problems. It comes down to he said/he said but the courts don't care and will always take the side of the accuser.

 

Many stories of this abuse. Like this guy in Indiana. Totally safe and undetectable yet still goes to prison for 25 years. http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/02/health/criminalizing-hiv/

[ChrisWydeman]

Medication allows me to live a normal life: The mediation is so expensive. I spend upwards of 7000 a year on just medication from a pharmacy. That is not including Imodium or other OTC stuff that i need to take to counter act the side effects of the meds.

 

This may seem like a silly question but if your medication is causing adverse side effects have you tried some of the newer medications like Stribild or Trimeq? While side effects do happen the occurrence of them in newer meds seems to be lower than some of the older options.

[stop]

Well, then there's going to be allot of arrests then. If you choose to be unsafe you take the good with the bad. You don't go to the authorities looking for revenge when the bad happens though.

 

I would tell people in states that have very tough penalties to just never disclose anything to anyone. You're just setting yourself up for problems. It comes down to he said/he said but the courts don't care and will always take the side of the accuser.

 

Many stories of this abuse. Like this guy in Indiana. Totally safe and undetectable yet still goes to prison for 25 years. http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/02/health/criminalizing-hiv/

 

His story like so many others has the common denominator that he didn't disclose his status. That is the issue I have. Regardless of if I BB or use a rubber I still feel a moral and ethical obligation to disclose my status to anybody I am having sexual intercourse with, having medical care with or anybody that may be in a situation that they could be exposed to the virus. Yes I get that many don't do this and that really is the crux of my argument. People should be required to disclose it. Its not a sexually transmitted disease that goes away with a shot or a couple of pills. Its a lifelong viral infection that currently there is no cure for. People should be prosecuted for infecting somebody unless there was consensual sex where the other partner was aware of their status. I know that can be a slippery slope and like I said in my first post, there are some grey areas here. But personally given what happened to me I do feel that there needs to be accountability for guys that are positive and don't' disclose and BB or don't know their status. Hey I take complete ownership for my infection, I did not have to say yes to BB sex, I could have insisted while we were dating he wear a rubber but I didn't. And honestly I doubt I would have ever tried to prosecute because back then I was so ashamed that I was infected. I will admit that I do still at times have BB sex. (Please, I don't need the holier than tho contingent to attack me on this we can agree to disagree on this). And my biggest concern and why I am less likely to do it these days is because of STD's. I have 0 viral load and many T-cells. I am completely undetectable. But I will not sleep with a guy unless he knows in advance what my status is. Because so many hookups are online these days I am really not too concerned about a he said/he said situation because I have a written history of the conversation.

 

I get concerned when I meet guys that say they don't care what somebody's status is because of the meds. And that was part of why I went into so much detail about my experience with the meds. Yes there is something to manage it but a) its very costly, b) there are side effects, and c) we don't know what the long term side effects are going to be. Look at what happened with Crixavan, (spelling???) there was whole adverse long term effect that nobody knew about that caused a lot of guys major subsequent problems. We as a society has gotten so hooked on taking a pill to resolve anything that we are raising a generation of people that think all you have to do is take a pill to fix something. That is something that can lead to addiction.

 

It also concerns me that people wouldn't disclose if they were poz and having sex with somebody. And just because somebody has unsafe sex it doesn't mean they get whats coming to them. That's like telling a woman that was raped that because she dressed like a whore she deserved it.

 

If both people are aware of status and they agree on something then yes I agree I don't know that I have too much sympathy for the guy that claims foul later on.

[stop]

This may seem like a silly question but if your medication is causing adverse side effects have you tried some of the newer medications like Stribild or Trimeq? While side effects do happen the occurrence of them in newer meds seems to be lower than some of the older options.

 

Hey no, not a silly question at all. And I didn't mean side effects like some of the other strong meds have such as night terrors etc. They are really mild minor side effects but stuff I will live with all my life, that is kind of what I meant by the impact. I have digestive issues now, dry mouth, and acid reflux (in part because of the pills I took, stress also impacts this) and a couple other minor stuff.....again I know folks so much worse than me. And I am really lucky and thankful that my experience has been so much easier than a lot of peop0le I know/knew. I have buried more friends and and ex's than I care to remember.

[ChrisWydeman]

Hey no, not a silly question at all. And I didn't mean side effects like some of the other strong meds have such as night terrors etc. They are really mild minor side effects but stuff I will live with all my life, that is kind of what I meant by the impact. I have digestive issues now, dry mouth, and acid reflux (in part because of the pills I took, stress also impacts this) and a couple other minor stuff.....again I know folks so much worse than me. And I am really lucky and thankful that my experience has been so much easier than a lot of peop0le I know/knew. I have buried more friends and and ex's than I care to remember.

It might be worth meeting with your doctor or maybe even seeing a new one to minimize side effects. I have known many folks who have had some pretty awful side effects and switched over to stribild and didn't experience anything. Med management is serious stuff but after living with HIV for so many years I don't need to tell you that.

[+ quoththeraven]

My main problem with these laws now that HIV/AIDS is a chronic disease rather than an acute one is that they reward ignorance. From what I understand, people are who are HIV+ but don't know because they haven't been tested are the largest source of new infections.

 

One reason criminalizing this is attractive is that someone who does this may be judgment proof, but once you've HIV+, the burden of taking all those medications for life is yours. Even if it's possible to identify the source of the infection with precision (something I'm not sure is always possible), how useful is it to you or society to put the person who infected you in jail? And how does that encourage people to look out for themselves or their own health?

 

The reason for assuming potential partners are or may be HIV+ is that people often do whatever they feel they need to in order to get laid, including lie. I agree that the right thing to do is disclose, but that and $5 will get you any coffee in Starbucks.

[LADoug1]

I recently had sex with a guy who said he was negative. One week later he tells me he was positive and had been afraid to tell me for fear of rejection. Thankfully the sex was safe. This is why I always play safe regardless of what my partner says.

 

I also always play safe because of the window period of infection. Just because someone has gotten an hiv test and tests negative doesn't ensure they will be negative by the time they have sex with me.

[Frequentflier]

* Was it possible for HIV + people to get health insurance before ACA? If yes, what were the premiums/deductibles like?

* I agree with those who say HIV + people should be prosecuted if they have any form of sex with someone without first disclosing their status, assuming they knew they were +. I also agree with those who say that's the morally right thing to do.

* Reading comments from others who have made the effort to educate themselves on different drugs available for HIV + people reinforces how much knowledge and passage of time benefits us. By passage of time I mean that each day brings with it solutions we didn't have the day before.

* Separate from the HIV topic, I think all insurance plans should come with offers for free assistance programs to help people who need to lose weight, stop smoking, stop excessive drinking (I'm not going to stop drinking completely and I don't drink excessively, but I do drink), modify what they eat and take precautionary steps if their family history suggests higher risk to certain illnesses.

* I really count myself fortunate that, so far, I've avoided illnesses that require daily medication/side effects/additional expenses. Lately I've become a junkie to wristbands that measure heart rate, sleep quality, movement, etc. In the early stages but so far looking at the information has resulted in improvements in my daily routines. One that has helped physically and mentally is the alarm that tells me I've been stationary (like sitting at a desk) for too long.

[Frequentflier]

I recently had sex with a guy who said he was negative. One week later he tells me he was positive and had been afraid to tell me for fear of rejection. Thankfully the sex was safe. This is why I always play safe regardless of what my partner says.

 

So he committed a crime and didn't respect your life enough to tell you. Hopefully that disclosure was rewarded with the rejection he was worried about.

[LADoug1]

So he committed a crime and didn't respect your life enough to tell you. Hopefully that disclosure was rewarded with the rejection he was worried about.

I cut if off more because he lied than because of his HIV status.

[jimboivyo]

If you lie about your status and have unsafe sex, you deserve to be in a jail cell

[caliguy]

I cut if off more because he lied than because of his HIV status.

That's kind of a hard ass position to take IMO. He could've just not said anything at all and everything would've been fine. You essentially rewarded his honesty with rejection.

[AndreFuture]

Forgive my ignorance on this, but how does criminalization of HIV reduce the incidence of the virus? Does prison magically rid someone of HIV or something? If someone knows they could could be imprisoned for knowingly spreading HIV, would that make them more or less likely to get tested? Or is it purely a vengeance practice?

[caliguy]

those who say HIV + people should be prosecuted if they have any form of sex with someone without first disclosing their status, assuming .

Does hugs or kissing count?

[caliguy]

Forgive my ignorance on this, but how does criminalization of HIV reduce the incidence of the virus? Does prison magically rid someone of HIV or something? Or is it purely a vengeance practice?

It creates an atmosphere where people lie out of fear. FF wants a police state where people are punished for not always disclosing. Of coarse who knows who said what. Hard to prove but the burden of coarse will be on the Hiv + person.