The Dark Side of Getting Involved

[TotallyOz]

I am currently visiting one of the most beautiful countries in the world, Thailand. The beauty of the people and the scenery is unsurpassed by most places I have been to in the world. I love it here and I feel like I have found paradise.

 

Now for my story:

 

A few nights ago, my companion and I were walking down the street in an area called Sunnee. It is full of bars with gogo boys and beer bars for gay men. It is often times fun and it is a place where I will have dinner often. Around 7pm we were walking down the major street where the bar Kaos is located. The bars do not open until 9pm so there were few people there. A fight broke out with one guy beating up on another guy. Both were Thai guys. They were not young boys and I would estimate their age to be around 24 or so. The weaker of the two put up no fight and was basically just bombarded with punches and hits. He was knocked from the sidewalk to the street and his head hit the street with a "thump." He was unconscious at this point. The other guy kicked him in the face a few more times and walked away. I thought this was the end. It was not. He walked about 10 paces away and then returned to kick his head even harder into the pavement. It was at this point that I started to walk into the scene to get involved. My companion pull me back. I struggled with him a bit and his eyes were on fire. "No," he said. NO. He kept pulling me back and I could see he was intent on me not getting involved in what was happening.

 

Being a foreigner in a land where I am the minority I followed the direction of my friend. I stayed away. He explained to me that I did not know what the fight was about and it was not my business. I told him I was not worried about my safety as I was sure I could take on the stronger of the two boys fighting. My intention was not to "take on" anyone but to just put myself between the two boys so the boy was not killed. He said, "yes, you are strong. You can take the boy. But, then he will come back with 10 others. What will you do then?"

 

The foreigners I met for dinner about 10 minutes later all agreed that I should not have gotten involved and that it is best to mind your own business.

 

This was the first time I saw something like this on my trip to Thailand. I saw it once in Brazil and many times in NYC. In Brazil I did not get involved. In NYC it was 50/50 depending on the situation and accessing the dangers.

 

I posted in this forum as opposed to the Asia forum because my question is not related to Thailand but is meant more generally to all.

 

I have regretted not getting involved with this since the moment it occurred. It has been the cause of a few bad dreams as well. I know that I did the wrong thing by not doing something and my regret for this will stay with me for a long time.

 

When do you get involved in something that is not your concern? What are the boundaries when you are in a foreign land? Are those boundaries different when you are in your home? Is there a responsibility to go to the police and tell them what you witnessed? What is the right thing to do if this occurs again?

[jackhammer91406]

Oz,

Gosh, this is a tough question. I am sorry that you (or anyone) would have to witness something like this. I know nothing of Thailand or the customs. But, seeing someone get beaten is not easy to watch. the operative word. WATCH. I'd like to think many of us would have had the same reaction as you and would want to step in to stop the beating, especially after it had become clear that one of the guys could no longer even defend himself. And I don't know if it takes a special courage or is just foolish. My guess is that you will get responses from both sides of this coin.

But, my gut tells me that if you are of a stature and experience where you can pretty much hold your own against the one doing the beating, and if your skills at defusing a situation are pretty sharp, maybe you would be OK.

It's a very personal decision for each of us, but it's clear that you are having some regrets now.

The question we have to balance, it would seem to me, is whether we can live with ourselves as men if we do nothing in a circumstance like that. If we can, then the smart thing to do is to walk to the nearest law enforcement official, and pass the problem on to them.

If we can't live with seeing someone being badly beaten, particularly after they are already unconscious, then we have to act. It's not heroic, and it's perhaps foolhardy (to some), but it's got to be the right thing to do I think, and we take the punches that come with doing the right thing.

[VaHawk]

"The foreigners I met for dinner about 10 minutes later all agreed that I should not have gotten involved and that it is best to mind your own business.

 

This was the first time I saw something like this on my trip to Thailand. I saw it once in Brazil and many times in NYC. In Brazil I did not get involved. In NYC it was 50/50 depending on the situation and accessing the dangers."

 

My only question is why, the locale whether Thailand, Brazil or NYC should matter?

 

All such scenarios, regardless of locale are dangerous to an outsider, not to mention the local police! No one knows the cause of the attack, nor even the reaction of the "victim" towards outside intervention, as many such victims will attack the interloper!

 

Unless it is OBVIOUS that the victim's life is in danger, for example, the attacker was stabbing the victim or bashing the victim's head with a blunt instrument, then I would not advise getting involved beyond the point of verbal shouts or calling the police!

 

It doesn't seem that the victim in this case, was being "murdered", so I think you did the correct thing by not getting involved beyond reporting the attack to authorities. The FACT that you did the correct thing, despite your natural tendencies otherwise to help someone in distress, should not in any way, put you in such distress!

[Guest msclonly]

You are only a GUEST!

 

Remember you are a guest in Thailand or any other country when you travel. You are not familiar with the way things are done in a foreign country, so take the advice of someone who does and lives there. As hard as it is to stnad by, you are not superman or omnipotent.

 

If your companion did not feel it necessary to inform the officials, then it would be wise not to judge the world through your eyes as they see in the U.S. Sorry if this sounds heartless and insensitive, but we must remember we are not at home nor know the details for the fight, regardless of how it 'looked' to you at the time.

[hiJinX]

Since the concern from the natives was that the actor would return with reinforcements and then umbrage with YOU since you involvced yourself, you should consider your ability to act with impunity in the given situation.

 

Would you have been able to advocate for the "victim" in this situation and be able to "retreat" to a place of safety?

 

Always consider the axiom or standard for intervening in a life threatening situation...you have to take care for your own safety to assure that of the person you are assisting.

 

That said...it is many a person who has intervened in a bar brawl who receives the thanks of a bottle to the skull.

 

It all depends on what you value most...peace of mind for having done the "right" thing or your own personal safety.

[Ignoto]

>I am currently visiting one of the most beautiful countries

>in the world, Thailand. The beauty of the people and the

>scenery is unsurpassed by most places I have been to in the

>world. I love it here and I feel like I have found paradise.

 

>I posted in this forum as opposed to the Asia forum because my

>question is not related to Thailand but is meant more

>generally to all.

 

Thanks for the postcard, Pollyanna, but there is a difference between life in a country where police response is predictable, and a country where police corruption is a way of life. You don't get involved in Asian street fights because you don't know whether the guy on the losing side is a drug dealer, and the guy who is getting the best of him is the enforcer for the local police honcho who didn't get his cut of the action this week.

 

What would be your advice to a Japanese tourist who found himself in Harlem at a time when few people were on the streets and most of the business were closed? Maybe, "there is a time and place for everything, and this is the wrong time and the wrong place for you."

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

BANGKOK, June 25 (TNA) – Senior Thai academics have urged the government to tackle police graft immediately.

 

A renown Thai economist, Phasuk Pongpaichit from Chulalongkorn University, said the infamous case of police extortion from the massage parlour tycoon Chuwit Kamolwisit highlighted the need for reform of the police.

 

She noted that there is also widespread public concern over the government’s efforts to legalise "shady businesses" like gambling and prostitution.

 

The number of people involved in these businesses could increase markedly, and could adversely affect both society and the family, she said.

 

Experts estimate these "shady businesses" already generate more than 20 billion baht a year.

 

If these businesses are legalised, their share of the gross domestic product (GDP) could reach 60 percent, said Ms. Phasuk.

 

Other businesses which are part of the shady economy also include street stalls and motorcycle cabs.

 

http://www.mcot.org/query.php?nid=28482

[HooBoy]

If I see a fight in the street, as I did in Europe last week, I watch - from a distance. But if it is not my argument, it is not my business and I let 'em do their own stupid thing.

 

The fight I saw had two grown taxi drivers throwing punches and eventually one of them had his brand new car kicked, which started another row.

 

But then, in Europe, they fight over football games, too.

 

I am happy to hear you are still enjoying the land of smiles.

[ValleyDwellerNorth]

Hello Oz,

 

It is obvious that, in general, you "care". You are what my father refers to as a "good egg".

 

I use to get involved in situations like this. Like you, my instinct use to be to get involved and break it up.

 

I use to ignore people that would say don't get involved. I use to think such advice would come from a heartless, uncaring person. I now view such advice as valuable and worth listening to.

 

If I was in that same situation today that you described I would call the police, take pictures or video if I could and then get away ... far away. A few years ago I would have become physically involved. No more.

 

If you were to have been hurt would anyone care? Would the victim compensate you if you hurt yourself to the point where it would effect your ability to work and live with no pain? Is the permanent damage to your body that you may have incurred worth helping this individual?

 

Not only this country but this world does not favor the good samaritan. As a matter of fact it seems to punish us.

 

Most people would just watch. Personally, I do all that I mentioned above: call authorities, etc. But no one except myself has my best interest in mind.

 

You feel bad because you have a soul and you saw something very disturbing. More than likely you are having some sort of post traumatic stress disorder symptoms as well. However, your companion did the right thing. In time you will see the wisdom of you not getting physically involved.

 

Peace VDN

[ValleyDwellerNorth]

> A fight broke out with one guy beating up on another guy.

>Both were Thai guys. They were not young boys and I would

>estimate their age to be around 24 or so.

 

OH .. and by the FUCKING way .. what the hell do you consider young if you think 24 "or so" ISN'T young? Are you 9? ;-)

[KY_TOP]

Unfortunately by not getting invloved you probably did the right thing, due to the Asian culture. When I read your story it reminded me of the story of the Japanese civilians that were held captive after the Iraqi war started. When they were released and returned home they were ridiculed and had to go into hiding because the Japanese felt it was wrong for them to be there getting involved in something that was none of their business. Here in the US we would have celebrated their safe return. Knowing your Southern background I can imagine the conflict you felt. We have to realize that sadly,helping the underdog or your neighbor is not apart of many cultures.

[TotallyOz]

Thank you all for your responses. I do appreciate the input and the food for thought. I found myself in a situation where I was very uncomfortable not helping and knowing I did not do what I could to assist someone. I understand that for my own safety in a foreign land and not knowing the language or customs, that I did what was in my best interests. Hopefully, had I been the one being beaten down on the pavement, I would hope there would be someone that walks by that had more compassion than I and more of a willingness to intercede.

 

I guess part of what scares me is that life is too short for regrets. I have lived a good life and I have very few regrets in it. For some reason, this one incident is one of them and something I cannot change at this point in time. I did go back to the scene 15 min later to see if the guy was still laying there and he was not. As I was just around the corner, I know no police or ambulance came by so my hope is that someone came to help him.

 

Anyway, for each of you that responded, I appreciate it. You have given me much to think about. I think that is one of the true blessings of this board.

[TotallyOz]

>My only question is why, the locale whether Thailand, Brazil

>or NYC should matter?

 

To answer this, I think that the closer I am to homebase, the safer I feel and the easier it is for me to depend upon the network of friends I have established. If I were in my home state in the deep south, there would have been little doubt that I would have gotten involved. The further away I go from this, the less safe I feel getting involved. Does this make sense?

[TotallyOz]

>That said...it is many a person who has intervened in a bar

>brawl who receives the thanks of a bottle to the skull.

 

Wow! What memories of the past things brings back for me. My best friend owned a bar in the deep south and there were bar brawls on a weekly basis. The owner just happens to be a woman and one of my found memories of her is once during a brawl, she pulled out a bottle of Jack D and landed it upon this guys head. Down he went. Quiet the place. Round of drinks for everyone. Back to playing George Jones on the jukebox.

[TotallyOz]

>I am happy to hear you are still enjoying the land of smiles.

 

I am still enjoying the land of smiles more than you can imagine. I know I cannot stay here permanently, but I am trying to stay as long as possible.

 

I am also in Bangkok this weekend and staying at one of our favorite hotels. The spaghetti bouillanaisse is as good here as it was in Sao Paulo. It is the first thing I order when I get to my room. Thanks for the recommendation!