Anyone Want To Compare Testosterone Levels?

[+ Gar1eth]

So last year I went to one of those "Men's Clinics" because my libido was down. I figure a lot of it is due to my age, mood, and not being in great shape. I have taken testosterone injections before. But at the time I had these labs drawn I hadn't had any testosterone injections in at least 18 months-possibly more.

 

So my age was 53 when these were drawn. The total testosterone was 395 ng/dL ( nl was 348 - 1197).

 

Free testosterone was 8.4 pg/mL (nl 7.2 - 24)

 

So not being an expert on these-they seem to be normal but at the low end. I'm guessing that may explain my decreased libido. On the other hand I don't know if these are normal levels for a guy my age.

 

I ultimately decided not to buy any medications from the clinic as they were incredibly expensive. They did give me a low dose of Trimix to see if it would work on me. It worked too well. I found the experience extremely painful, and I had to receive the antidote.

 

Gman

[LouieD]

Goodness, what an unpleasant result with the Trimix.

 

I don't have my t levels. But, my doc ran the blood test and said they were normal. Still, I am 65 and I have felt my libido waning.

 

He was quite adamant in not wanting me to take a supplement, such as the one you roll on under your arm, as advertised on tv. Too many possible side effects. So, I basically just chalked it up to getting older and didn't press it.

 

But, I still wonder.

[+ Gar1eth]

Goodness, what an unpleasant result with the Trimix.

 

I don't have my t levels. But, my doc ran the blood test and said they were normal. Still, I am 65 and I have felt my libido waning.

 

He was quite adamant in not wanting me to take a supplement, such as the one you roll on under your arm, as advertised on tv. Too many possible side effects. So, I basically just chalked it up to getting older and didn't press it.

 

But, I still wonder.

 

Each physician orders the specific strength of Trimix depending on what the patient needs. They said they gave me a very low strength dose to test it out. But my tallywacker was so hard it hurt. The physician said I must be really sensitive to the Trimix. Possibly with a lower strength dose and repeated experiences with it, I might have gotten used to it. But I'm not good with pain. And it was incredibly expensive. As I'm not totally impotent, I decided not to buy it.

 

As for testosterone, I was taking the injections for about a year and a half to two years. I heard that they worked a lot better than the cream or gel. I'm not sure how well the testosterone worked for me. It's not supposed to help with erections at normal doses but to restore libido. I also don't know if my levels drawn 18 months later are low because my production was still suppressed after taking the testosterone injections.

 

Gman

[tedbear]

I started out with the roll-on testosterone, but the fumes from it drove me straight into asthma attacks, so that didn't work out. My urologist was going to put in a testosterone implant, but I ended up moving to another state, so that didn't work out and I haven't followed through with it in my new state. I should do so.

[frankwon22]

Shots are the best rest is trash. Should get estrogen checked as well.

[+ Funguy]

First of all Frankwon - shots are NOT the best. I do this for a living and I can tell you that, yes, they may be just as effective as other choices BUT, as it is injected, the testosterone has to go thru the liver and can be hard on the liver to metabolize. There are now creams formulated (made at compounding pharmacy) with a great absorptive transport (e.g. lipocream) which, tho they must be applied daily, work just as good if not better than injections. We use a 20% cream, not the usual 6.25% Androgel and it will boost your FREE testosterone well into optimum range of 200 or more (or, > 24 - if using units mentioned by Gman). Note: I said "optimum" not just normal - the goal is to put you back to what it was at age 25.

I am 67 and use this myself and I keep my free Testosterone in the 400 range and I feel great and my libido is great as well. No complications, side effects, etc.

 

I would caution against the implant as if there is a reaction, you have to get it removed, if it does not boost your T high enough you have to add to it; too high and you have to have it removed/changed. There is an unacceptable (to me) rate of complications: infection, pain, etc. If the well-absorbed cream is used it is easy to control: add more if not high enough, cut down if too high, etc.

 

As to Gman - 18 months is way long enough that you don't have any effect left. Even your total T is on the low side. TRIMIX is for erectile dysfunction and NOT for low T. It will not boost your T or have much of an effect on your libido but will help you to "carry thru" your libido.

Besides, who wants to have to inject your penis - ouch! and yes, your sub-optimum level certainly may account for your decreased libido.

As to expense, I have it made at a compounding pharmacy and, for a 3 month supply it runs about $100 (about $30 per month which probably would equal an insurance co-pay.) The injectable Depo-testosterone 200 mg/ml used at 1 ml once a week is cheaper at about $40 for 10 ml (coupon available at Goodrx.com).

 

I have a whole lot of men on this regimen and, believe me, they love it. If they travel, they elect to either inject before they go, take cream with them, or forego while away if on business and they aren't playing. Restarting cream is simple - just put it on. It comes in a dispenser which sends out the exact measured amount needed.

 

LouisD - you must make sure your doc runs FREE testosterone level. There are very minimal side effects with the lipocream. The roll-on variety is not very effective and yes, the smell can be terrible. Again, the lipocream, rubbed in on your forearm or inner thigh has little odor for the first few minutes of application and then dissipates.

 

Finally, as frankwon says, initially check your estrogen after you start applications. If it goes up (and this is rare), there are blockers you can take.

 

Hope this helps you all - it does for me!

[Irtwo]

We use a 20% cream, not the usual 6.25% Androgel.... As to expense, I have it made at a compounding pharmacy and, for a 3 month supply it runs about $100 (about $30 per month which probably would equal an insurance co-pay.)

 

Funguy, informative post, thanks. But how does that work? I can go to a doctor and get a prescription for 20% T-cream, and then I go to a special pharmacy to have it made?

[geminibear]

Is this what they refer to as a short arm inspection?

[+ Gar1eth]

Funguy, informative post, thanks. But how does that work? I can go to a doctor and get a prescription for 20% T-cream, and then I go to a special pharmacy to have it made?

 

Yes, in most (large) cities-there will be something called a 'compounding' pharmacy. Most of the big chains don't 'compound' (mix together) medications anymore because it's too time consuming. The problem is in most states 'compounding' pharmacies aren't regulated that well. I remember several years ago the big news was there was a drug shortage of a steroid. Hospitals all over the country bought the steroid from this one compounding pharmacy somewhere in NE United States if I remember as the hospitals couldn't get the steroid from the regular drug manufacturers. The medication turned out to be contaminated with fungus. Many patients ended up with deadly fungal infections. On the other hand, you are much safer with an ointment applied topically.

 

Gman

[+ Funguy]

Funguy, informative post, thanks. But how does that work? I can go to a doctor and get a prescription for 20% T-cream, and then I go to a special pharmacy to have it made?

 

Not quite that simple.

First of all, you need to find a doctor who specializes in bioidentical hormone replacement therapy - most general docs and even endocrinologists don't work much with "custom" medications or even know which is the most effective delivery system. If/when you do find someone, and you should be able to find one in a big city, just google "bioidentical hormone therapy," many have their own preference for cream v. injection v. pellets. Age is a factor as well - under 38-40ish Hcg is used instead of T in order to stimulate the body's own production - lots of pieces of the puzzle are necessary to do this right.

 

If your tests indicate you do need T supplementation, the doc will write a Rx and send you to a compounding pharmacy. The reason to go to a compounding pharmacy used by that doc is that they will be used to filling that Rx in the most cost-effective manner. Many compounding pharmacies CAN fill it but if they do not do a volume of Rx's then they wind up charging more than ones which do a high volume. If the Rx is for meds other than a cream, ask the MD for HIS/HER reasoning. As I said before, not everyone treats in the same manner and each has his own preferences.

 

Just as an aside...the injectable form is 200 mg/ml - use 1 ml per week; it is the same for the cream - 200 mg/gram and you use 1 gram twice a day. It should come in a dispenser with pre-measured doses to eliminate guesswork.

 

Also, MOST compounding pharmacies do quality checking very frequently so it is unusual to run into the problem mentioned by Gman but it is something to consider asking the doc.

 

PM me if you need more info...

[+ MasssageGuy]

I've started getting my testosterone levels checked on a somewhat regular basis. It is interesting to see what appears to be a wide fluctuation in the readings.

 

Does anyone know what the "normal" range of fluctuations are in the amounts of total testosterone (LC-MS/MS) and free testosterone?

 

For example my total testosterone was 806 in April and now it is 546.

My free testosterone was 66 in April and now it is 45.

 

Anyone want to share to what degree their levels fluctuate??

[+ Funguy]

MassageGuy - as this is what I do for a living - I will tell you that your total T is an unnecessary test other than to follow to see rising and falling. The FREE T is the important test.

I strive to put my patients to an "optimal" level - not just within normal ranges.

The total and the Free will decrease with age and this is very normal. Don't count on the levels going back up without replacement. 806 for a Total is fine; 546 is on the low side. But, remember that there are several forms of T that go into the total. The free fraction is the important factor for libido, lean muscle, bone support, etc. 66 is low, 45 is very low. I get my patients up to about 195-500 depending on where they feel good. I have some where the total is well over 1,500 and the Free is in the neighborhood of 500-600, and they feel great!

 

As a matter of semantics, I use the word replacement to indicate actual T being used - be it injectable, cream, pellets, etc. I use the word supplement as just that - a substance (not testosterone) used to jack up the level - they don't work! Don't waste your money.

 

Of the forms of T to use - the best seems to be a 20% formulation in lipocream (absorbed really well), injections of 200 mg/1 ml of depo-testosterone (testosterone cypionate) - you give yourself 1 - 1.5 ml every 1-2 weeks depending on the level. I don't like implantable pellets - I have seen too many infections and if the dose isn't right then you have to wait the 4 months and have a different dose implanted. Androgel is only 6.25% vs the 20% we use so you might have to bathe in it to get a really good level.

 

If you search our little forum I have posted ins and outs of this a number a times. You can PM me if you want further details.

[gallahadesquire]

Funguy, I assume you are a board-certified endocrinologist or close to it. My understanding is that the FREE T is more important, as it is the biologically active form. TOTAL T is relatively meaningless; and what does T bind to, anyway? [i wasn't very good at endocrinology].

 

IIRC, most endocrine systems work on a multiple of 1-4, i.e., if the lower range of normal is a "1", the higher range of normal is "4", or a four-fold range, five or take. I know for epinephrine, a single stress exposure can increase epinephrine by ten-foold, which is why a 24 hour excretion is required for diagnosis of pheochromocytoma.

 

I would think that a FREE T near the "lower limit of normal" would not explain significant fluctuations in libido; that there are many factors much more likely to cause problems.

 

Personally, my endocrine profile showed a FREE T of < 250 and an elevated prolactin. There's some sort of old-man's-endocrine-system malfunction that does that. Since I can barely be bothered to put topical agents on my psoriasis, application of Androgel was not going to happen on a day-by-day basis.

 

Just my two cents.

[Beancounter]

I'm not sure I understand this discussion on free T and total testosterone but when I had my testosterone tested my doctor said was OK and I didn't need to worry about. My level was 900. I'm not sure what normal is.

[+ glennnn]

I've been under [uSER=9945]@funguy[/uSER] 's care for two months and feeling sexually potent and ready. I am not even a science type (theater major, humanities MA) much less a doctor, but my man, Funguy, knows what works for me. I just need a harder and more reliable cock to match my libido. Sound familiar? My new, young, handsome and gay-friendly (I think gay himself) urologist and I are working on that! 2017 should be a fun year on one count at least.

[marylander1940]

So last year I went to one of those "Men's Clinics" because my libido was down. I figure a lot of it is due to my age, mood, and not being in great shape. I have taken testosterone injections before. But at the time I had these labs drawn I hadn't had any testosterone injections in at least 18 months-possibly more.

 

So my age was 53 when these were drawn. The total testosterone was 395 ng/dL ( nl was 348 - 1197).

 

Free testosterone was 8.4 pg/mL (nl 7.2 - 24)

 

So not being an expert on these-they seem to be normal but at the low end. I'm guessing that may explain my decreased libido. On the other hand I don't know if these are normal levels for a guy my age.

 

I ultimately decided not to buy any medications from the clinic as they were incredibly expensive. They did give me a low dose of Trimix to see if it would work on me. It worked too well. I found the experience extremely painful, and I had to receive the antidote.

 

Gman

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnOJQLI6hM

[+ purplekow]

To answer the question about value fluctuation, testosterone levels during the day naturally vary. There are many reasons for this but ultimately a cyclic variation is normal. You should probably get your testosterone tested at the same time each time, usually the morning, Other factors may also be involved. In addition, a normal level on one reading is only a point in time. If your value is 450 and has been slowly decreasing from 900 over a period of years, that has different implications of a steady state 450 level or even a 450 level which may be rising, while is not usual. So you should never count on one level to be the end all in determining testosterone. Time of day is important in testing. Other factors, such a intake of soy may place a small role in testosterone variation.

[Guy Fawkes]

Was at 23 when first measured; Have been injected 1cc in my thigh every week. Last test was in the 200's.

 

It has helped the "Fragileness" immensely. Sex meh... however, I find myself looking at 'em a lot more.

[Guest]

MassageGuy - as this is what I do for a living - I will tell you that your free T is an unnecessary test other than to follow to see rising and falling. The Total T is the important test.

 

On the basis of what do you make this statement? Free testosterone is more closely indicative of the bioavailable testosterone. It also has less diurnal variation. While total is probably OK in many instances, free T is more accurate:

http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/83686

 

http://www.medpagetoday.com/resource-center/hypogonadism/androgen-deficiency-testing/a/34999

 

http://www.alphamaleinstitute.com/your-free-testosterone-level-is-the-most-important-value-in-testosterone-therapy-newsletter/

[jjkrkwood]

After testing positive for low T, I embarked on a 6 month quest to find answers and options. And after the 6 months, and learning of the creams, gels, pills etc, 2 specialists dissuaded me from treatment saying the side effects (which I don't now remember) would not be worth the benefits. "But what about Suzanne Somers" I said ? Believe a fraction of what she says, THEY said..... So I am learning to live with the fatigue and lessened sex drive. But the upside is that still, if you shove a cock in my face, I will suck it, even if I'm tired !

[+ Funguy]

On the basis of what do you make this statement? Free testosterone is more closely indicative of the bioavailable testosterone. It also has less diurnal variation. While total is probably OK in many instances, free T is more accurate:

http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/83686

 

http://www.medpagetoday.com/resource-center/hypogonadism/androgen-deficiency-testing/a/34999

 

http://www.alphamaleinstitute.com/your-free-testosterone-level-is-the-most-important-value-in-testosterone-therapy-newsletter/

 

I CAN'T BELIEVE I MIS-TYPED THAT. The Total is a fairly useless test and it is the FREE testosterone that is important!! Too much wine, I guess.

To re-iterate: FREE T is the important value. Further in the post I also mention that.

[+ sf westcoaster]

Just want to say thanks to "funguy" for taking the time to educate us on so many aspects of testosterone levels and related remedies. The information from a thread of this type is one of the main reason why I continue to visit the message center.

[+ MasssageGuy]

+1000

[Guest]

Too much wine, I guess.... Further in the post I also mention that.

 

And I missed the fact that you corrected yourself also... ;-)