Anal Sex (Greek)?

[biggerbilly]

So I click on Ben's website after reading his review today, and saw that under his services, he lists anal sex as Greek. Does anyone know what that means? I've heard of French Kissing, never Greek Fucking.

[+ Gar1eth]

So I click on Ben's website after reading his review today, and saw that under his services, he lists anal sex as Greek. Does anyone know what that means? I've heard of French Kissing, never Greek Fucking.

 

For some reason -and I'm going to look up the derivation right now-'Greek' is a euphemism for anal intercourse. I'll bet it has something to do with the fact that in Ancient Greece older men often had 'relationships' with young boys.

 

Anal Intercourse is even the (if you'll pardon the expression) "top" definition of the word "Greek" on the Urban Dictionary site which I've copied and pasted below.

 

 

 

TOP DEFINITION

greek

Anal sex. Used mostly as a euphemism in prostitution circles.

I looked at the newspaper ad of 'Lola', she specifically said 'No Greek'.

by Fang Teng October 05, 2003

4391 For 1735 Against

 

Gman

[vabballfan]

Greek is a synonym for anal intercourse. French Active/Passive refers to oral and Greek Active/Passive refers to anal (fucking). Greek Active = top, Greek Passive = bottom, Greek A/P = versatile.

[+ Gar1eth]

I was basically right in my supposition of why Greek implies anal intercourse.

 

Here is a column by Cecil Adams, "The Straight Dope" (Cecil claims to be the world's smartest human in case you aren't familiar with him) -

 

Did the ancient Greeks routinely practice incest as well as homosexuality?

January 13, 2006

Dear Cecil:

 

A friend forwarded your article on male genitalia in Greek art, and it reminded me of a discussion--OK, a near argument--I had with a friend on the sexual habits and rituals of the ancient Greeks. I read somewhere that homosexual acts among ancient Greeks were commonplace, and that one involved a ritual when a boy became a man. Supposedly the boy was anally penetrated by his father (or maybe his grandfather) to symbolize the passing on of the family seed. Can you verify this for me?

 

— David Lyon, Memphis

 

Time to get the meds adjusted, pal. The ancient Greeks were pretty out there sexually, and I've even seen speculation about homosexual initiation rites in prehistoric times, but ritual gay incest? Gross me out of existence. At any rate there's nothing about it in Kenneth Dover's Greek Homosexuality (1978, revisited 1989), for now the definitive work on the subject. That said, you can see where a bizarro idea like this would arise.

 

Truth is, we don't really get what was up with the ancient Greeks. Partly that's a function of mainstream western society's centuries-long refusal to face the facts, namely, that sexual relations between members of the same sex, or anyway between males, were common in Greek society in those days. Even now there's a lot we don't know and probably won't ever know. Though we have a seeming abundance of Greek art and literature to sift through, ancient Hellenic culture broadly understood spanned well over 1,000 years. Our knowledge of many periods and subcultures is sparse. Many texts are ambiguous. Pornographic vase paintings, it's true, don't leave a lot to the imagination, but much of this stuff was art of a sort and not necessarily representative of how people lived--God knows what archaeologists a couple millennia hence are going to make of Robert Mapplethorpe and Britney Spears.

 

The real handicap, though, is that little of what we think we know about sexuality now prepares us to understand what the Greeks thought about it then. Today we tend to regard sexual orientation as a binary proposition--most people are attracted to either men or women; relatively few are consistently attracted to both. What's more, we think of sexual identity as innate and more or less immutable. It may take a while (usually in adolescence) to figure out if you're gay or straight, but once you do, you stay that way for life.

 

None of this could be confidently said of the Greeks. A common practice in ancient times, at least among those men rich enough to have the time for such things, was to chase boys until you were 30 or so, then settle down with a woman and have kids. Dover cites an Athenian jury trial involving an allegation of male prostitution on the part of one Timarchus in which the prosecutor in effect argues: Look, we've all had the hots for young studs; I've gone after a few myself. But selling yourself to another man--now that's low. Granted, the prosecutor doesn't say he's actually had sex with another man, but we've plenty of evidence from other sources seeming to indicate that many prominent Athenians (e.g., the lawgiver Solon) did just that.

 

Which gets us to the heart of your question. In ancient Greece the partners in a homosexual relationship, whether physically expressed or not, were rarely on an equal footing--almost invariably one partner (the erastes) was dominant, the other (the eromenos) submissive. While your idea about intrafamilial buggery is a little off-the-wall, in the typical scenario an adult male would hook up with a comely adolescent boy, mentoring him intellectually and in some though not all cases using him physically (the kid wasn't supposed to enjoy it). Today we'd call this pederasty and condemn it as exploitative. The Greeks didn't necessarily see it that way. While the main attraction from the senior partner's standpoint was the physical beauty of the younger man, the goal of the erastes, at least ideally, was to earn his beloved's affection and protect him from harm. An example commonly held up in Athens' heyday was Achilles and Patroclus in the Iliad, who were understood to be lovers. (Admittedly Brad Pitt didn't bring this out very well in the movie Troy.) Achilles has promised Patroclus's dad he'd bring the kid home safely from the war and is driven berserk by grief when his significant other gets killed.

 

Dover suggests that homosexuality, or more precisely homoerotic attraction, was a jumping-off point for Greek philosophy. For example, Plato, an opponent of same-sex coupling, conceded that men lusted after boys, but argued that erotic desire ought to be channeled into an appreciation of the higher things. How droll to think that the Greeks' metaphysical musings on the Good, the Beautiful, etc, may have begun with some guy sighting a naked youth at the gymnasium and thinking: Whoa, nice ass.

 

— Cecil Adams

[+ Gar1eth]

And from "The Straight Dope Message" Board-

 

#1

aceplace57 http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif

Guest

 

Join Date: Oct 2009

 

How did Anal Sex and the Greeks get Associated?

Snickers aside, why are Greeks and Anal Sex so closely associated? Is it a homosexual reference or something practiced by straights too?

 

As a culture do they prefer that form of sex?

Last edited by aceplace57; 03-01-2012 at 06:24 PM.#2

 

Shagnasty http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif

Charter Member

 

Join Date: May 2000

Posts: 23,721

 

It is a homosexual reference. The basic idea is that the ancient greeks didn't like women much and that sex with them was mainly for procreation. Ancient greek men had a culture that encouraged male bonding to the fullest extent possible including male on male sex. They weren't gay. They just valued men that much and were extreme misogynists in general...or so the common historical meme goes.

 

I took Ancient Greek history in college. They did have a male dominated culture in general but we didn't spend much time on anal sex practices. I am not sure I am buying it based on what I believe about innate sexual preferences but that is the standard line.

 

********

 

Gman

[biggerbilly]

Thanks for clearing that up. Don't know why he put Greek in parentheses. Anal sex is pretty clear on it's own.

[sincitymix]

I was basically right in my supposition of why Greek implies anal intercourse.

 

Here is a column by Cecil Adams, "The Straight Dope" (Cecil claims to be the world's smartest human in case you aren't familiar with him) -

 

Did the ancient Greeks routinely practice incest as well as homosexuality?

January 13, 2006

Dear Cecil:

 

A friend forwarded your article on male genitalia in Greek art, and it reminded me of a discussion--OK, a near argument--I had with a friend on the sexual habits and rituals of the ancient Greeks. I read somewhere that homosexual acts among ancient Greeks were commonplace, and that one involved a ritual when a boy became a man. Supposedly the boy was anally penetrated by his father (or maybe his grandfather) to symbolize the passing on of the family seed. Can you verify this for me?

 

— David Lyon, Memphis

 

Time to get the meds adjusted, pal. The ancient Greeks were pretty out there sexually, and I've even seen speculation about homosexual initiation rites in prehistoric times, but ritual gay incest? Gross me out of existence. At any rate there's nothing about it in Kenneth Dover's Greek Homosexuality (1978, revisited 1989), for now the definitive work on the subject. That said, you can see where a bizarro idea like this would arise.

 

Truth is, we don't really get what was up with the ancient Greeks. Partly that's a function of mainstream western society's centuries-long refusal to face the facts, namely, that sexual relations between members of the same sex, or anyway between males, were common in Greek society in those days. Even now there's a lot we don't know and probably won't ever know. Though we have a seeming abundance of Greek art and literature to sift through, ancient Hellenic culture broadly understood spanned well over 1,000 years. Our knowledge of many periods and subcultures is sparse. Many texts are ambiguous. Pornographic vase paintings, it's true, don't leave a lot to the imagination, but much of this stuff was art of a sort and not necessarily representative of how people lived--God knows what archaeologists a couple millennia hence are going to make of Robert Mapplethorpe and Britney Spears.

 

The real handicap, though, is that little of what we think we know about sexuality now prepares us to understand what the Greeks thought about it then. Today we tend to regard sexual orientation as a binary proposition--most people are attracted to either men or women; relatively few are consistently attracted to both. What's more, we think of sexual identity as innate and more or less immutable. It may take a while (usually in adolescence) to figure out if you're gay or straight, but once you do, you stay that way for life.

 

None of this could be confidently said of the Greeks. A common practice in ancient times, at least among those men rich enough to have the time for such things, was to chase boys until you were 30 or so, then settle down with a woman and have kids. Dover cites an Athenian jury trial involving an allegation of male prostitution on the part of one Timarchus in which the prosecutor in effect argues: Look, we've all had the hots for young studs; I've gone after a few myself. But selling yourself to another man--now that's low. Granted, the prosecutor doesn't say he's actually had sex with another man, but we've plenty of evidence from other sources seeming to indicate that many prominent Athenians (e.g., the lawgiver Solon) did just that.

 

Which gets us to the heart of your question. In ancient Greece the partners in a homosexual relationship, whether physically expressed or not, were rarely on an equal footing--almost invariably one partner (the erastes) was dominant, the other (the eromenos) submissive. While your idea about intrafamilial buggery is a little off-the-wall, in the typical scenario an adult male would hook up with a comely adolescent boy, mentoring him intellectually and in some though not all cases using him physically (the kid wasn't supposed to enjoy it). Today we'd call this pederasty and condemn it as exploitative. The Greeks didn't necessarily see it that way. While the main attraction from the senior partner's standpoint was the physical beauty of the younger man, the goal of the erastes, at least ideally, was to earn his beloved's affection and protect him from harm. An example commonly held up in Athens' heyday was Achilles and Patroclus in the Iliad, who were understood to be lovers. (Admittedly Brad Pitt didn't bring this out very well in the movie Troy.) Achilles has promised Patroclus's dad he'd bring the kid home safely from the war and is driven berserk by grief when his significant other gets killed.

 

Dover suggests that homosexuality, or more precisely homoerotic attraction, was a jumping-off point for Greek philosophy. For example, Plato, an opponent of same-sex coupling, conceded that men lusted after boys, but argued that erotic desire ought to be channeled into an appreciation of the higher things. How droll to think that the Greeks' metaphysical musings on the Good, the Beautiful, etc, may have begun with some guy sighting a naked youth at the gymnasium and thinking: Whoa, nice ass.

 

— Cecil Adams

 

I believe the Spartans were what that guy was thinking of. The men, warriors, lived in a separate mens house. The adolescent boys in training had to "submit" to their mentor sexually. women were only used sexually for procreation purposes only.

When the boys passed the tests and became warriors and men, they would do the same with the next group of boys-warriors in training. cycle repeats itself.. all considered a great honor.

If the Spartans all looked like the guys in 300. hell yeah lol

[+ Gar1eth]

I believe the Spartans were what that guy was thinking of. The men, warriors, lived in a separate mens house. The adolescent boys in training had to "submit" to their mentor sexually. women were only used sexually for procreation purposes only.

When the boys passed the tests and became warriors and men, they would do the same with the next group of boys-warriors in training. cycle repeats itself.. all considered a great honor.

If the Spartans all looked like the guys in 300. hell yeah lol

 

 

The Athenians didn't go that far. But it was reportedly not usual for an adult male to have a younger male lover. But as Cecil points out, the time period of the Ancient Greeks spanned a 1000 years. Who knows how common this type of relationship was over that entire span.

 

Gman

[luv2rim]

Back in the mid 80s many ads for escorts in the advocate classifieds said Greek active or Greek passive.

[Rudynate]

Back in the mid 80s many ads for escorts in the advocate classifieds said Greek active or Greek passive.

 

 

It goes way back, I think to the 50s or 60s maybe earlier, when sex was always spoken of in euphemisms.

[Guest RexB]

It goes way back, I think to the 50s or 60s maybe earlier, when sex was always spoken of in euphemisms.

 

And today's terms 'topping' and 'bottoming' aren't euphemisms?

[+ Gar1eth]

And today's terms 'topping' and 'bottoming' aren't euphemisms?

 

I don't really think so. They are more descriptions of the action from a Missionary Position point of view.

 

Gman

[Guest RexB]

I guess I'm thinking of those terms being used as verbs. "I'd sure like to 'top' the sh*t outta him" sure sounds like a euphemism to me.

[AdamSmith]

"I'd sure like to 'top' the sh*t outta him" sure sounds like a euphemism to me.

 

Remember this...?

 

 

[body2body]

When I came out in the early 70s, the personals in the Advocate (which at that time was the local Gay paper) all would have descriptions like "GWM 6' 2" 185 blond/blue Greek active, French passive" which indicated you were an anal top and received oral. This continued for a long time. After a while you would see it abbreviated to G/A F/P. During the Victorian era gay sex was referred to as "The Greek Perversion". Oddly enough many scholars of Ancient Greek culture today don't think that the Greeks actually practiced anal penetration, but instead practiced "intercrural" intercourse. Where one man would place his penis between the thighs of another man. This is born out by depictions on Greek pottery. There was a book of collected transcripts from the Athenian Law Courts I read in college that included a suit brought by one man against another for stealing the affections of a young man to whom he had become attached.

[Rudynate]

Where one man would place his penis between the thighs of another man.

 

Which is pretty hot in and of itself.

[kjun]

If you look at his site, under services he lists "Anal Sex (Greek)".

[+ quoththeraven]

I believe the Spartans were what that guy was thinking of. The men, warriors, lived in a separate mens house. The adolescent boys in training had to "submit" to their mentor sexually. women were only used sexually for procreation purposes only.

When the boys passed the tests and became warriors and men, they would do the same with the next group of boys-warriors in training. cycle repeats itself.. all considered a great honor.

If the Spartans all looked like the guys in 300. hell yeah lol

 

The Spartans took it to more of extreme -- they even suggested that relationships amongst fighting men would lead to greater tenacity in battle to ensure the welfare of one's lover -- but it was also true of the Athenians. Plato's Symposium talks about how much more worthy men are of the love of other men than women are. Such love was also considered purer and more fitting, as men had more in common with each other than with women.

 

This love between men was also supposed to be non-physical, hence the term "platonic." But those cups and bowls depicting otherwise suggest that this was probably a standard that existed more on paper and in the minds of philosophers than in reality.

 

Ancient Athens was a highly gender-segregated society in which marriage had to do with procreation and building a household rather than a family as we know it and women were held in low esteem. As I recall, women didn't even wield authority within the home other than with respect to female matters (childbearing and female children, possibly meals and housework). The only women who were valued for their wit and intellect, and who socialized with men (wives did not, not even with their husbands), were the hetaerae, who were roughly equivalent to courtesans or concubines.

 

Sparta, on the other hand, was more egalitarian. When men were away fighting, a Spartan wife ran the household. They were also expected to understand the rudiments of defense against military attack so as not to leave the city vulnerable to a siege.

[seaboy4hire]

Sexy talk aside, I'm really enjoying this little history lesson.

 

Hugs,

Greg

[biggerbilly]

If you look at his site, under services he lists "Anal Sex (Greek)".

I know, that why I put this trend up, lol. I thought Greek was a specific type of anal sex.

[Phil_musc]

". . .a specific type of anal sex."

 

Just how many types are there? I still come here to learn new things. Teach me. I thought I knew all about this.

[rvwnsd]

I felt like I was transported back to the 90's when I read this thread.

 

Oh, and I LOVED "Top Cat" as a kid.

[Rudynate]

". . .a specific type of anal sex."

 

Just how many types are there? I still come here to learn new things. Teach me. I thought I knew all about this.

 

All kinds - toys, tongues, fingers, hands, feet, bananas, etc. etc.

[biggerbilly]

". . .a specific type of anal sex."

 

Just how many types are there? I still come here to learn new things. Teach me. I thought I knew all about this.

I have no idea, it could have been sex with Greek yogurt as lubricant for all I knew.

[seaboy4hire]

I have no idea, it could have been sex with Greek yogurt as lubricant for all I knew.

 

Coconut oil makes a great lube. Many lubes upset my tummy but coconut oil doesnt.

 

Hugs,

Greg