Not Experiencing Gay Sex/Love While Young

[KY_TOP]

>9. e.e. cummings

 

I'm familiar with a Tony Cummings in Atlanta. He is no Poet but he makes me rhyme.

[Guest Tristan]

JustStarting, thank you so much for including Robert Frost's poem. It's just perfect for this thread. It's not just one of my favorite poems. It IS my favorite poem. In fact, I made a very risky extreme decision about a year ago based on this poem, and it has made all the difference.

[guptasa1]

I'm too tired to read this whole thread right now, but thought I'd chime in based on the initial post.

 

I'm 23, but even at this age, I have regrets. I actually didn't realize I was gay until I was 19, and I don't think I even had sex until I was 20 (might have been late 19) with my first and only boyfriend, a relationship that will always be one of the best memories I have (though I hope I have even better ones in the future someday).

 

I do understand somewhat where you're coming from as far as regrets, though. I had a very conservative upbringing and never dated (or cared about it really) in high school at all...or most of college (and when I did find that relationship, it was long distance and I only saw the person on rare occasions). I never really was able to socialize well (don't have the skills), and it's still a problem for me. I never went to proms or dances or parties or any real social events, nor did I "play" much in the normal sense of the word. I was just very quiet and withdrawn, favoring time spent with a machine over that of another person...and in some ways I do regret that (but I don't really see many other ways I could have successfully done things either).

 

One resource I do now have that I'm lucky to have at this age, at least for the present (dunno how far it will extend into the future or even if it will), is the current financial ability to see escorts occasionally. I figure since there's no certainty of a relationship in the near future and I'm awful at picking up dates, I'm going to enjoy sex (and more than that companionship of nice guys) while I'm young, and if I can't afford to do this later, that's not desirable...but okay I suppose (better than not living for the moment now at least...or for better or worse that's how I feel at the moment). I'll have some good memories from it no matter what.

 

I guess my perspective on the whole thing...at least for me...is simply that, while regrets will always exist, all one can do is live for the moment and try to get as close in the present as they can to where they wish they could have been.

 

I can never know what it's like to say...be 14 or 15 and fall in love with a gay classmate of the same age and grow up with him close by to live my life with him. Nor can I ever go back to that past relationship that meant so much to me as it was...or know what it's like to be straight...or go to a prom...or be as social as the other kids, etc. All I can do is make the best of the time I have and try to have some fun now in the ways I know how. *shrugs*

 

I've found it's also allowed my ideals to change a bit, or at least allowed me to realize sometimes for me practicality beats idealism. (For example, while waiting for the perfect relationship might be ideal, I've realized I'll have more fun by seeing escorts somtiems and accepting that it may never happen...or it may...and just finding something to enjoy either way).

 

By the way - one interesting point you make is the Internet. I think a lot of what I'm saying is much easier now because of it. For example, had I lived the same type of life 30 years ago, I doubt I would have ever known how to find an escort due to lack of tools, etc.

 

At the same time, though, the Internet can have it's own pitfalls...like getting so caught up in it you avoid human contact altogether...which I tend to do far too much personally.

 

Just my rambling two cents. =oP

[Guest DevonSFescort]

If it's any consolation, I think you might be surprised how much overlap there is between your feelings and those of many gay men who DID come out early, and DID experience gay sex and/or love during their youth. I came out to myself when I was 17, and had my first sexual encounter and started coming out to others when I was 18. And while I have always been a proponent of coming out as early as possible, I have also had to face up to the fact that coming out during one's immature years can have its own share of pitfalls and drawbacks. I have observed this with respect both to my own life and that of more gay men than I can remember.

 

The biggest problem, as I see it, is that your earliest sexual and romantic encounters tend to be formative -- especially, perhaps, if they happen while you're young. My first boyfriend informed me one month into our "relationship" that he had ongoing sexual liasons with the doctors at the hosptial where his mother worked and where he volunteered. My second boyfr-- well, I can't even call him that; let's just say the second guy I slept with -- knew that (in those days) I didn't believe in sex without love, so he told me he loved me so I'd agree to sex, then left town without telling me two days later. My next boyfriend was living at Covenant House during most of our affair, until he went AWOL; I had to scramble to find housing for him; and then he cheated on me (I believed in monogamy back then) with the two guys I'd gotten to take him in. I forgave him and asked him not to do it again; he promised not to and kept that promise a good twenty-four hours. This all happened during my senior year in high school, and there were plenty more dysfunctional experiences to be had both before I graduated and after. While I did experience sex with young guys as a young guy (although, truth be told, I get a lot more young guys now that I'm over thirty), I sure didn't experience love. Instead I formed relationship patterns that I haven't shaken to this day. The longest two relationships (excluding a couple of long-distance ones) I've had lasted six and five months each, and both were very much products of their limitations.

 

Like you, I sometimes look back with pangs of regret and wonder what would have happened if I'd made different choices. The dirty little secret those of us who believe in coming out early -- and I still count myself among them -- often forget to mention is that coming out, while a great and important thing, is not a panacea. When I hear a gay man expressing concern about a younger gay man he knows, some cute young thing who's just coming out, invariably the big worry is "I just hope he doesn't end up jaded." When friends of mine date younger guys and it doesn't work out the biggest single anxiety they express, in one way or another, is that they're afraid they've fucked that sweet young boy's head up in some way, and when I draw them out, sure enough, THEIR first boyfriend was an asshole or cheated on them, etc., etc.

 

>I didn't have a gay encounter until my mid-20s. I see pics of

>young guys in an erotic situation, and I feel like I missed

>something important in my life.

 

Very well said. Wanna hear something weird? I feel that way too. This is partly because the pics we're seeing don't have a whole lot to do with reality. Larry Clark's movie 'Kids' was controversial because it showed REAL teenagers having sex, with all their gawkiness and awkwardness, shot on grainy film in available light, instead of perfectly made up and lit 'Dawson's Creek' cast members well into their twenties. I've always thought that was what was so responsible about that movie, because what Clark showed (especially in the opening scene) was about the least glamourous depiction of teen sexuality I've ever seen. I think we need a 'Kids' for gay audiences, if only to remind us of something we already know or should at least suspect -- that most gay teen sex doesn't look like a Brett Everett movie or an A&F spread, and a lot of "young gay love" could better be described as young gay dysfunction.

 

>Instead of exploring my true

>sexual inclinations, I wasted my early years dating girls and

>young ladies. Not that it was a total waste. It gave me a

>different perspective, and I did learn some things about

>women.

 

This too strikes a chord with me. I also did a lot of wasteful dating in my early years. It just so happened to be with guys. But I didn't really start exploring my true sexual inclinations, which after all, involves so much more than merely picking the right gender for your sex partners, until my mid-to-late twenties. But like your experience with women, I cannot view my earlier, less fulfilling experiences as total wastes. I learned from them as well.

 

I can also relate to not having had the Internet to enhance my coming out process. Sometimes I wish I had (it would have made it easier to meet other young gay guys) and sometimes I think, "thank god I didn't" (it would have made it SO much easier to really, REALLY fuck up).

 

You're right to let yourself mourn what you've missed out on. I would also encourage you to celebrate what you've missed out on. There are many young, out gay men whose experiences you're probably glad you DID miss (I don't mean myself here; notwithstanding the experiences I shared above, on the whole I've really enjoyed the ride). When all is said and done, maybe you really did come out when you needed to come out.

[Guest YFSC]

Ah, yet another erudite, well-thought-out and well-reasoned post from VaHawk.

Vintage Hawk.

 

OK, since you seem to want to play, I'll let you drag me down into the muck again, but just for a little while, not for as long as before. And I didn't "promise not to respond" as you claim. I said I *probably wouldn't*. Read what I wrote. Even *that* remark you feel compelled to misrepresent.

 

>Hey self-alluding, all knowing, self-righteous flaming queen! What's

>the matter, can't stand a little criticism of your supercilious,

>snobbish, self-importance?

 

Everything you said there applies to you, not me. And it's obvious to all that *you* are the one that "can't stand a little criticism." You can't even admit that your criticism of Tristan's use of 'miss' was wrong, even when confronted with the dictionary entry.

 

The fallacies are yours. Everyone can see that.

I have only drawn attention to your rude and bombastic manner (like in the post just above) and to your misreprentations of facts and other people's views, mine included.

 

You like to dish it out to others and do it quite frequently, but don't like it when it comes back to you. The solution is simple. Just stop your rants.

 

Elsewhere you said:

>BTW: I see that the gentler, kinder Hooville didn't last long, did it?

>Once again, it has devolved into name calling ala VaWack. After all,

>when you can't attack the issue, by all means resort to attacking the

>poster. -- VaHawk, Feb 13, 2004.

 

Rather than address the issues here, you chose to attack the poster in spades, and in childish terms. Further eloquent testimony to your hypocrisy.

 

And, BTW, I am *not* a federal bureaucrat. My God!! you couldn't even figure out that was sarcastic??

[Guest YFSC]

I did not refer to "negative hostility" or accuse you of it. That was from someone else's post. But there you go accusing me of it, as usual. My original reply was addressed to Tristan and his remarks, to defending his use of the word 'miss' and to pointing out that the criticism of him for it was incorrect. And I did not name the critic.

 

However, your original reply was an unnecessary and uncalled-for putdown of Tristan, starting with your sarcastic Sinatra remark, in response to a post in which he had already telegraphed loud and clear that he was making himself vulnerable. Read what other posters have replied in the later parts of this thread, and compare that with what you replied. Also compare the tone of their posts and yours. Note the difference. You may even have been more correct in your take on the situation than they were (or may not have been, I'm not commenting on that),.but that is not the point. You could have said something nice to Tristan, or you could have just passed by without comment. Instead you zeroed in. Whether you intended it or not, that's the way he took it. That's undeniable. And notice that he did not react that way to anyone else's post.

 

You may not intend your posts to be negative and hostile, but that's how a lot of people seem to be taking them. Maybe you're just being you, and you are unaware of the effect that what you say, and especially how you say it, has on many other people. And maybe that's why you are so defensive about it.

 

>incorrectly citing previous flames,

 

No, unfortunately the citations are all correct. Do I really need to go into the archives and post chapter and verse here for you? You keep having many of these flames, and *not* just with me.

[Guest Tristan]

Robert,

 

Thank you for being willing to share your personal story. I'm glad if my post helped you write down what you feel. I hope it wasn't too painful to do so. No, you are not alone. It was my intention to see if others felt as I did and, if so, for people to see that they are not alone.

 

Thanks for participating in our discussion.

 

- Tristan

[Guest Tristan]

Guptasa1,

 

Thanks for your reply. A few thoughts. You are only 23, and have your whole life ahead of you. If you really want a relationship, don't give up. Find someone while you're young and more desirable. It just gets harder and harder as you get older because most people seem to want younger. And we all know the older you get, the more you have to be rich to get someone younger. I'm sure there are some exceptions to this, but for the most part, I believe it is true.

 

Your generation is very fortunate to have the Internet despite its drawbacks. Before the Internet, we had to use the local gay papers with personals. You reponded to an ad either by PO Box or by dialing a number and leaving a voice message. You paid up to $2.50/minute just to leave a response. It could easily cost $20 to leave two responses, only to get a phone bill and not hear from either of the two people. Escorts frequently had no pics in the ad. There was no place to get a review. It was much easier to get burned. You were essentially working in the dark trying to find an escort, and you did get burned.

 

There is a long way to go for gay people, but we have come a long way.

Younger people very often don't realize all the resources available to them today that previous generations did not have. Time goes by very quickly. So take advantage of all these resources, and I hope you find someone special.

 

- Tristan

[Guest Tristan]

Devon,

 

Great reply and great insights! Thanks so much for taking the time to write them down. I agree that gay sex/love at an early age has its pitfalls. I never meant for people to think I regreted not having something that was "perfect" or without its problems. Yeah, I know that a lot of what we see commercially is not the reality for most of us mortals. I'm not that naive. On the other hand, I have met guys who did have very good experiences having gay sex at an early age, and it didn't mess them up. So I'm a romantic and a dreamer. What can I say, except that my regret is that I was not one of those who did have a good experience.

 

Your perspective is very helpful to me, and I will think about everything you've said.

 

Thanks again,

 

- Tristan

[guptasa1]

Hi Tristan. I appreciate your comments and insights (and I hope I didn't make my thread to much about me...I just thought I'd share my experiences for your comparison, and don't want to get this thread off track).

 

You're right that it's probably easier when you're young to find relationships, and that almost put too much pressure on me I guess, so I stepped back a little. I haven't given up by any stretch, but I suppose you can say I'm not counting on it either anymore. I haven't been real successful in putting myself out there so far, but I have tried a few things (personals, etc.). We'll see. I unfortunately, don't fall easily for people, but when I do fall, it's hard. Finding that mutual attraction (again) seems pretty improbable, but hopefully there's someone out ther.

 

As far as the Internet, yes - I doubt I would have even done the phone system/mail system back then - I'd simply be too shy to I think (though who knows - I may have found the courage after a long while of being alone). I'm glad things have progressed this much, and there's no doubt it was much harder back then.

 

Thanks again for your comments. =o)

[woodlawn]

>Now many of us pay for the pleasure of younger escorts, but

>how many like myself never had the chance to have sex with

>someone young while being young, or to have a bf and be in

>love with another male while being young?

 

There are a couple of different issues mixed together here.

 

First, if a man with homoerotic desires grows up in a culture that discourages those desires and as a result does not act on them until later in life, is he missing opportunities to explore and understand the feelings and relationships that might result? Probably. But the truth is that a lot of gay men who grow up without those constraints spend their earlier years in a series of one-night stands or other meaningless sexual pursuits. The fact that an opportunity exists doesn't mean one will be wise enough to take it.

 

Second, you're only young once, but it isn't only the young who have the opportunity to engage in real relationships rather than making do with the simulacrum of intimacy provided by paid escorts.

 

>I can't help but

>think I missed something very important - young gay love.

 

> Yet the void in my early years will always remain -

>impossible to ever recapture, and no memories to ponder, no

>matter what escort I hire.

 

I'd have to agree -- you can't simulate "memories" of "young gay love" by hiring some gay kid for sex. But if you try very hard you might be able to have a real relationship with someone else.

[jackhammer91406]

Celebrating a different Age.

 

Tristan,

Thanks for setting a very interesting question with a subject that resonates with most all of us (albeit for different reasons).

 

I don't think any guy over the age of, say 25, can possibly give much insight to guys under that age as to how different it is for young men growing up today. Although they are still bombarded with the emotions and hormone changes of budding sexuality, in today's environment, there seems to be much more freedom of expression and many more opportunities for finding other guys with like sensibilities.

 

Having said that, I guess many of us in the over 25 group, find ourselves wistful when remembering our coming of age period because we see so many young men enjoying a freedom we feel we may never have had. While some on this thread have shared that they had open experiences of gay dating and relationships, many others have come to this place in time with the sense of something missing from their early life.

 

As I have shared before, I came to this new place in my sexuality fairly late, having never had thoughts or fantasies that typify most gay men in their youth. After my one gay relationship ended, my choice was to just shut down emotionally (not a wise choice, never the less) I did just that for 18 years.

 

My feeling of missed opportunities stems from that celibate time, where so much could have been experienced, but wasn't.

 

I CAN TOTALLY IDENTIFY WITH YOUR EXPRESSED FEELINGS

 

I am thankful for a place like this which has introduced me to other men with similar interests, who are willing to share their experiences with me and allow me to FAST TRACK my learning curve.

 

Thanks again Tristan for this interesting thread, and to all who have shared their opinions.

 

[VaHawk]

“And keep in mind that hawks circle high in the sky looking for vulnerability on the ground, waiting to exploit it.”

 

Do you think we are all fools here, or just me? Now who could you possibly have intended to be the target of this negative barb.?

 

“However, your original reply was an unnecessary and uncalled-for putdown of Tristan, starting with your sarcastic Sinatra remark, in response to a post in which he had already telegraphed loud and clear that he was making himself vulnerable.”

 

Well, obviously you, and you are not alone here (refer to some of the remarks by HB himself), have absolutely no sense of humor. The only kind of humor you obviously get is the slapstick variety. If he telegraphed vulnerability, then I guess the Western Union at my place was out of order, because that isn’t the message that I received. My interpretation was that he was asking a question foremost and secondly “mooning” over something he “supposedly” missed in the past, and expressing that somehow that made him less than “whole”.

 

“You could have said something nice to Tristan, or you could have just passed by without comment. Instead you zeroed in. Whether you intended it or not, that's the way he took it. That's undeniable. And notice that he did not react that way to anyone else's post.”

 

I also could have posted something really nasty to him, but didn’t do that either. So what is your point? How he took it is his problem, and obviously, something that you feel the need to take up as some kind of mc crusader. You seem to feel the urge to do that quite often, e.g. with that escort guy from south of the border.

 

”You may not intend your posts to be negative and hostile, but that's how a lot of people seem to be taking them. Maybe you're just being you, and you are unaware of the effect that what you say, and especially how you say it, has on many other people. And maybe that's why you are so defensive about it.”

 

I’m not defensive about what I say, at least not any more so than you, and most others on this mc. What effect could a post on an anonymous internet board possibly have on anyone? It is a INTERNET board, and if posts by others is going to affect any area of your life in any meaningful way, then you should not participate, but instead, go join live groups that share your interests and opinions.

 

”

Do I really need to go into the archives and post chapter and verse here for you? You keep having many of these flames, and *not* just with me.”

 

While you’re there, post some of yours. And you have never posted other’s posts chapter and verse. Your forte, is cutting and pasting words out of context of the whole to support your points. FLAMES sure help the site from turning into a WET BLANKET society of sob sisters.

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>On the other hand, I have met guys who did

>have very good experiences having gay sex at an early age, and

>it didn't mess them up.

 

Yes -- I have too, and I am heartened by the fact that it seems to be easier for kids today to have positive early formative experiences. For the past five years I've had the wonderful privilege of knowing and becoming friends with the nephew of good friends of mine (I've always thought of him as my own nephew). The level of self-confidence and self-awareness he had at age fifteen (when we first started exchanging emails), living in a small, conservative Southern town, was so much greater than I had when I came out at eighteen. It's a wonderful thing to see, and fortunately the pleasure I take in his well-being pretty effectively overrides the envy I feel vis-a-vis things I feel I may have missed out on. And I'm grateful to all the generations of gay men whose fight made my coming out easier.

 

>Your perspective is very helpful to me

 

I'm glad. Great thread.

[+ Oliver]

Tristan –

 

When I first read your beginning thread, it resonated through me like nothing before. I thought “I didn’t have those opportunities when I was young either.” And I was feeling some regret also. But after reading compassionate responses from JustStarting, Rap218, KY_TOP, bigjoey, BuckyXTC, Franco, Devon, Woodlawn, and jackhammer I realized that regret is probably not the right word. Nevertheless, What if?

 

I am undoubtedly much older than you and, therefore, was brought up in an even more repressive atmosphere relative to “gayness”. The word didn’t even exist when I was a teenager. It was “queer” or “fag”, and don’t wear green on Thursday, because that means you’re queer. I knew that I liked looking at men’s bodies and muscles but one didn’t or couldn’t act on that, or even dwell on it too long – I couldn’t be queer.

 

So I did what was expected of me, went to college, got married, and had three children. I was married until my wife died almost five years ago. I wasn’t fair to her because of who I am, but we did end up as best friends, because we had a lot in common (other than sex) and we raised three great kids together. Did she know? – probably.

 

I am in much the same place as KY_TOP is with his children (I’m still in the closet with mine, too), but I wouldn’t trade my relationship with mine. I also don’t have to wish. And being a grandfather is beyond words.

 

I had my first sex with a man when I was 51. Mine have all been paid encounters until the last half year. When guess what? – I was reunited purely by happenstance with a friend from junior high and high school. (We were j/o buddies – but that was OK because boys did that and we didn’t touch each other!!!) Turns out he’s gay, too!!! So we’ve met twice, even though we are thousands of miles apart. We have also agreed that to dwell on what if’s is pointless and a waste of what time there is. We’ll see where this goes.

 

Sooo, all of that being said – I, too, am enjoying life, although at my age I’m having to speed along a path leading to “Two roads diverged in a wood…”

 

Thank you for opening this topic. This is the longest post I’ve ever made. I’ve been too vulnerable before.

 

With warm regards,

Oliver

[Guest DevonSFescort]

Hey guptasa1 -- if it helps to hear this, barring unforeseen tragedy or some truly disastrous choices, the best is almost certainly yet to come. I don't think I've EVER met a gay guy over thirty who told me his twenties were better than his thirties. One of my little fetishes is for guys in their early twenties who seem to have it so much more together than I did at their age...but the funny thing is, no matter how amazing they are they're usually also a mess in a lot more ways than first met the eye. I think it's an extremely confusing time -- the euphoria has started to wear off; disillusionment has started to kick in; expectations have started to be challenged; you start realizing things that depress you, like the fact that your high school memories are more than five years old; and you've had time to learn that gay men aren't nice to each other just because they're fellow gay men. But almost everyone I know who's my age or older says that you really start getting it together (on a lot of different levels) in your late twenties and just take off in your early thirties. I just hope you don't do what I did at your age and waste time worrying about "your fading youth." You're going to be young for a long time, and "mid-to-late youth" is, in my experience at least, a lot more fun overall than "early youth" (but the disparity's greater if you don't enjoy early youth's perks while you've got them). You're just paying your dues, but the good news is you're near the end of your dues-paying period and the beginning of the really good part.

[Guest YFSC]

>Well, obviously you, and you are not alone here (refer to some

>of the remarks by HB himself), have absolutely no sense of

>humor. The only kind of humor you obviously get is the

>slapstick variety.

 

Huh?? Are you trying to say that your post was *humorous* and that I just didn't get it?? I don't think you will find very many people that thought it was humorous. And Tristan didn't think so either. And that was definitely not the proper place for a humorous post.

 

>If he telegraphed vulnerability, then I

>guess the Western Union at my place was out of order, because

>that isn’t the message that I received.

 

Well I guess it *is* out of order, just as you often are. Read the preamble to his post.

 

>My interpretation was

>that he was asking a question foremost and secondly “mooning”

>over something he “supposedly” missed in the past, and

>expressing that somehow that made him less than “whole”.

 

As I suggested before, read your post and then read the ever longer chain of others which comment on or respond to the OP. See if you notice a difference in content and in tone between yours and all of theirs. Tristan has struck a very responsive chord in many posters and most of them thank him for raising the topic, contrary to the belittling way that you refer to his post in your capsule summary above and contrary to your first take on the matter.

 

>I also could have posted something really nasty to him, but

>didn’t do that either.

 

Well, I guess we should be thankful for small favors.

 

>So what is your point?

 

My point is just what I have been telling you many times. Don't go on rants and putting people down, don't attack people for doing the same things that you yourself do, don't misrepresent their words or opinions, don't invent and proclaim their intentions and beliefs when you have no idea whatsoever about what those beliefs and intentions are,......

 

Nobody comes looking for you to pick a fight. All your fights here have been the result of offensive and insensitive remarks that you have made on somebody else's post. Maybe you don't intend your remarks to be offensive and insensitive, but it's obvious that that's the way quite a few people, not just me and not just 1 or 2, take them. I'm not asking you to admit to anything. Just think about it. Why do so many people "misinterpret" you in the same way? Are they all wrong?

 

>How he took it is his problem,

 

But pretty predictable from what he said in his OP.

 

>and obviously, something that you feel the

>need to take up as some kind of mc crusader.

 

Only after you had already done your bit to put him down.

 

>You seem to feel

>the urge to do that quite often, e.g. with that escort guy

>from south of the border.

 

I get that urge only when you trigger it. Stop triggering it and I won't get it any more.

 

>I’m not defensive about what I say, at least not any more so

>than you, and most others on this mc.

 

Right... you're not.... by the way, have I ever told you about this bridge that I have for sale in Brooklyn...?

 

>"Do I really need to go into the archives and post chapter and

>verse here for you? You keep having many of these flames, and

>*not* just with me.”

>

>While you’re there, post some of yours.

 

I invite you to repost any of mine at all. You will find that they are not self-contradictory and are consistent with each other, that they are factual, that they do not misrepresent the words or opinions of others, that they do not put words in people's mouths.... Unlike yours, which are not consistent, which say one thing when you do another, which misrepresent what other people said, which attribute things to people that are not so....

 

>And you have never

>posted other’s posts chapter and verse. Your forte, is

>cutting and pasting words out of context of the whole to

>support your points.

 

Wrong again. EVERYTHING that I have quoted from you has been quoted in a full enough form to give the clear context, so that it is clear that I have not taken anything out of context, unlike what you do.

 

I think maybe you don't understand what "cite chapter and verse" means. It means "give specifics." Or it can also mean "cite with attribution, cite the source." It does *not* mean "give the whole post from the first letter to the last when it is not necessary to do so." All that is necessary is to give enough context so that the remark is not made to mean something other than what it means in context. And to cite the source so that anyone who wants to can go and check it out if they think there is a reason to. And that's what I do.

 

I have never "cut and pasted" (rearranged) words *within* a quote that I took from you or anyone else, and I have never dropped out significant words that change the meaning of the quote. I defy you to find just *one* example. What I *have* done is cut a chunk from a post of yours and pasted it into a post of mine. That's a very different kind of "cut and paste," and there is nothing wrong with that. It's called quoting what somebody said. You apparently don't understand what is meant by "cut and paste" either, or what the difference is.

 

And, for the record, I do cite the source when the quote has not been from the immediate post that I am replying to, for example, in another post of mine on this thread when I took a quote from an older post of yours, and attributed it with the notation "-- VaHawk, Feb 13, 2004." If you want the number of the thread or of the post I will be happy to provide it. The entire paragraph has four sentences. I quoted three of them in full. The three were all complete sentences just as you wrote them with no omissions or changes, and they were contiguous. How is that "out of context" or "cutting and pasting your words"?

[+ Oliver]

>...and "mid-to-late> youth" is... a lot more fun overall...

>

 

And "really late youth" (after 60) can be al lot of fun, too!}(

 

Oliver

[VaHawk]

Guptasa, imo, you seem like a really nice person, so treat yourself as well as you obviously treat others. I wish you the very best. One thing I most wish for you is the end to the constant need to apologize to others for being who you are and for expressing your opinions and thoughts.

 

On to the general, that is not specific to you.

 

All the pissing and moaning about the "bad" old days. Well, just mo, but they were the "good" old days, where one had to go out and deal with all aspects of the gay scene, certainly not limited to escorts, on live one on one encounters on a daily basis. IMO, the internet "invasion" has turned into a crutch that only inhibits the growth of individuals and is used as a convenient place to remain hidden/closeted. IMO, personal progress is often a casualty of technological progress.

[+ deej]

>>And NO ONE has the right

>to dictate and/or restrict others from posting a response to a

>thread/topic in an open internet forum.

 

Actually, this statement is 100% wrong. The owner may restrict content at will.

 

This is NOT free speech area so don't delude yourself into thinking that you have any right here other than those granted by the owner. Constitutionally guaranteed free speech applies only to governmental restriction of speech.

 

Hawk, please take these words in the constructive spirit in which they are meant. You are a valued member of the community. You have posted much of value and earned respect in your time here.

 

Lately, though, I'd prefer any butch Lesbian on PMS. There would be less drama and less attitude. You've repeatedly entered benign threads by posting wholesale insults to the entire community, and then have the cojones to whine about getting personally attacked in response.

 

If you don't wish to be attacked, curtail your own attacks. If you insist on attacking, don't whine like a schoolgirl when you get a response in kind. Accept responsibility for your own words.

 

I truly hope there isn't some horrible mishap taking place in your life that is bringing out the uncustomary bitterness and outright hostility you've been displaying lately. You have friends here no matter how hard you want to work to make that not be true. That is not, however, a permanent condition.

[Guest Tomcal_]

Well Guys, add me to the group, got married in college and had 2 kids, knew I was gay but did nothing...regrets some, but fast forward to the present...I am having more sex then most 20 somethings. You can't change the past, but you can make sure you don't repeat the mistakes in the future! Plus, I think most everyone would agree whether your straight or gay, sex/love in your teens is shortlived, and quick, much better after you get into your 20's and for me have gotten better each year! the key, being positive that tonight or tomorrow you are going to find someone and have a great time for how ever long that lasts! This was a very interesting post to read and I think alot of guys out there can relate to it!

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>And "really late youth" (after 60) can be a lot of

>fun, too!}(

 

It shows, if you don't mind my saying so. :9

[Guest Tristan]

Oliver,

 

Thank you for getting up the courage to reply. When I posted this thread, I never dreamed that so many people would be willing to share their very personal thoughts. Apparently, it has served as a vehicle for you and others who had not previously found a safe place to express themselves on a rather sensitive issue. It appears that some members have never been able to vocalize their thoughts on this subject before, and this has been a catharsis for them. If that were the only thing this post accomplished, then I would be gratified that I took a chance in making myself vulnerable.

 

- Tristan

[Guest Tristan]

RE: Know The Path

 

Franco,

 

Thanks for your comments. I'm already working on making changes. As of a year ago, for the first time in my life, I am living in the heart of a gay area, rainbow flags and all. I spent most of my life living in safe str8 suburbs with pockets of gay people. Now it feels right, and I'm glad that I got the courage to do what many gay people will never experience. I'm not saying that it's right for all gay people, or that everyone who is gay needs to live at ground zero. I'm just saying it's something I always wanted to experience, and even with its downside, I'm the happier for it.

 

- Tristan

[Guest DevonSFescort]

RE: Know The Path

 

I agree that spending at least some time living in a predominantly gay neighborhood, even a so-called "gay ghetto," can be a helpful and liberating part of one's long term coming out process. Sometimes you'll hear someone say he doesn't want to live in a gay neighborhood because he doesn't want his life to revolve around being gay. But that's exactly why it can be so freeing to immerse yourself in an all-gay environment, so that for once you can FORGET about being gay, just as straight people, for the most part, don't have to think about being straight when they're surrounded by other straight people.

 

This is something I was indeed fortunate to experience when I was very young: almost straight out of high school I moved to London, where I got a job in a gay pub and lived upstairs. With the exception of a few "fag hags" and ahead-of-their-time metrosexuals, I was surrounded by gay men and was less self-conscious of my sexual orientation than I've ever been before or after. The lingering benefit was that when I re-entered the predominantly heterosexual workforce and neighborhoods, I felt absolutely entitled to be openly gay and not treated differently because of it. Gay spaces are critical pieces to the overall social project of making sexual orientation a non-issue.