Proof of purchase when you ride your bike?

[marylander1940]

The Times of Tampa Bay reported that in the last three years Tampa officers wrote 2,504 bicycle tickets, more than Jacksonville, Miami, St. Petersburg and Orlando combined. The Times said Tampa police target cyclists in poor, black neighborhoods, stopping them for offenses such as not having a bike light or carrying someone on the handle bars, then seize on those minor violations to question and search people.

 

http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/tampa-police-chief-defends-bike-stop-program-to-city-council/2226734

 

http://tbo.com/list/news-opinion-editorials/editorial-clear-the-air-on-bike-stops-in-tampa-20150424/

[+ WmClarke]

Sadly, not very surprising.

[marylander1940]

Sadly, not very surprising.

 

Poor people need "good policing" and not just been targeted as would-be-criminals.

[mike carey]

Can't find the link, but I saw a video of four Swedish police in NYC on holidays break up a fight and restrain the perps. Vid was cited as a potential training example for NYPD. I'm sure Ferguson PD could learn from it too. (And NSWPF while I'm at it!)

[marylander1940]

Can't find the link, but I saw a video of four Swedish police in NYC on holidays break up a fight and restrain the perps. Vid was cited as a potential training example for NYPD. I'm sure Ferguson PD could learn from it too. (And NSWPF while I'm at it!)

 

Without shooting anybody... just with their hands, and immediately after moving on to something else.

[mike carey]

Without shooting anybody... just with their hands, and immediately after moving on to something else.

 

It CAN be done!

[+ quoththeraven]

Poor people need "good policing" and not just been targeted as would-be-criminals.

 

I wish I could hit the "like" button more than once for this. This is the biggest problem with the police in minority/poor communities. The residents justifiably see the police as an occupying force representing The Man and The Establishment. The police see the residents as a bunch of lying scumbags who they must watch out for. This cycle of distrust escalates and perpetuates itself.

 

BTW, the practices described at the start of the thread is what's called "microaggressions" -- the kind of thing that makes the lives of members of disfavored groups hell. (See Claudia Rankine's book Citizen for a bunch of examples.) Gay people are subject to them too, but those microaggressions take on a different form and may be less frequent in nature. At the very least, I doubt white gay men get treated as thieves while shopping, whereas this is common for Black folks.

 

I don't have much use for Spike Lee ever since he suggested Black kids skip school to attend the opening of his movie Malcolm X (good movie, but why, Spike, why?), but his earlier movie Do the Right Thing is an excellent (though stylized and not perfect -- for one thing, Lee is a better director than he is an actor) look at what inner city life feels like for its residents and how a race riot starts.

 

This may have not be widely known, but the origin of some of the riots of the late 60s that leveled significant parts of some US cities like Newark, NJ was police brutality. The more things change ...

[instudiocity]

Poor people need "good policing" and not just been targeted as would-be-criminals.

Gotta figure out who in the mix is just a "Poor" Person and who is the Predator. NYC had a 'stop & frisk' program for similar reasons. The courts require probable cause to stop someone and having a bike on the street that doesn't comply with traffic codes is that probable cause. The article talks about the 2,000 plus tickets issued but doesn't tell us about the number of misdemeanor and felony arrests that resulted from bike stops.

 

It all goes back to citizens demanding police protection then bitching when it bites them in the ass. If you want to be protected by the police, allow them to use the methods the politicians and the courts have given them to evaluate the people they encounter.

 

After all, no one would get targeted by the cops if they kept their bike in compliance with the laws.

[marylander1940]

 

It all goes back to citizens demanding police protection then bitching when it bites them in the ass. If you want to be protected by the police, allow them to use the methods the politicians and the courts have given them to evaluate the people they encounter.

 

After all, no one would get targeted by the cops if they kept their bike in compliance with the laws.

 

During stop and frisk where you ever stopped by the police and searched?

 

Stopping a biker, handcuffing him and search him? Aren't any other crimes going on in the city?

 

This shouldn't be a police state, and cops should focus on big crimes and not in just filling up jails with alleged jaywalkers and guys riding a bike without a light at night or other minor offenses, every time a cop arrest someone he gets off the streets to fill some paperwork.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgjwaWERUp8

 

I'm sure someone was raped, or having his/her iPhone stolen while this happened... Even if there's a law saying it's illegal to play music in the metro, why arresting him?

 

Do you think you're tough because you just posted this on here? Do you feel good about yourself because just a thought posted on here? I can tell you got your adrenaline going while you wrote it, you know it wouldn't happen to you because you're white, old and (according to you) wealthy and a resident of a now rich and safer than ever city.

 

Go tell the youngsters who live in your building the way you think about his and they'll find who you're and stop "treating you like an equal".

 

Let's be reasonable.

[instudiocity]

During stop and frisk where you ever stopped by the police and searched?

 

Stopping a biker, handcuffing him and search him? Aren't any other crimes going on in the city?

 

This shouldn't be a police state, and cops should focus on big crimes and not in just filling up jails with alleged jaywalkers and guys riding a bike without a light at night or other minor offenses, every time a cop arrest someone he gets off the streets to fill some paperwork.

 

I'm sure someone was been raped, or having his/her iPhone stolen while this happened...

 

Do you think you're tough because you just posted this on here? Do you feel good about yourself because just a thought? Go tell the youngsters who live in your building the way you think about his and they'll find who you're and stop "treating you like an equal".

 

Let's be reasonable.

I believe you missed my point. Who is committing the 'big crimes'? And who's getting jailed for jaywalking or riding without a light. The story was about TICKETS! The news article reported the Police Chief said, "She also said the agency has given out more than 2,000 bike lights (tickets) and that cyclists get "many, many more" warnings than tickets."

Does anyone know how many of those 2,000 tickets in 3 years were for repeatedly being stopped for the same violation? How many of those tickets were issued the first time the bicyclist was stopped?

 

I question your hyperventilating, as you didn't answer my point? I wrote, "The courts require probable cause to stop someone and having a bike on the street that doesn't comply with traffic codes is that probable cause. The article talks about the 2,000 plus tickets issued but doesn't tell us about the number of misdemeanor and felony arrests that resulted from bike stops."

So let me ask you:

• How do you differentiate between a 'big crime' rapist riding a bicycle and bicyclist who isn't keeping his bicycle in good shape? (In this case, having working lights on their bike.)
  
• How do you differentiate between a guy speeding through the neighborhood to get home to watch a game and the 'big crime' gang-member who just popped a cap in a rival gang member and is now fleeing the scene?
  

Unfortunately, the days of bad guys wearing black hats is gone. To a cop on the street, they all look like people (and I won't defend the few cops who differentiate based on race). A cop's responsibility is to observe all the people finding the bad ones in the mix. They do this by enforcing all laws.

 

The consequences of breaking a law is being stopped. If you didn't renew your car's license plate, don't you think you should be stopped? If you had a headlight out, shouldn't you be stopped? What if I get drunk at a bar and drive home and while my driving is perfect - no signs of impairment, I fail to turn my lights on. Should I get stopped and arrested for DUI? Yet the only reason I was stopped is because I didn't have my headlights on.

[+ purplekow]

During stop and frisk where you ever stopped by the police and searched?

 

 

I'm sure someone was raped, or having his/her iPhone stolen while this happened... Even if there's a law saying it's illegal to play music in the metro, why arresting him?

 

 

 

Let's be reasonable.

Raped or killed yes. Raped or having their iPhone stolen NO.

[marylander1940]

...

 

So let me ask you:

• How do you differentiate between a 'big crime' rapist riding a bicycle and bicyclist who isn't keeping his bicycle in good shape? (In this case, having working lights on their bike.)
  
• How do you differentiate between a guy speeding through the neighborhood to get home to watch a game and the 'big crime' gang-member who just popped a cap in a rival gang member and is now fleeing the scene?.
  

In the meantime by skin color cops could judge who's guilty or innocent and bother the whole community.

I'm sure the are a lot of rapists and gang members who don't speed and have their license plates up to date and I'm sure 11 y/o in white neighborhoods can ride their bikes without fear of been asked for proof of purchase.

 

 

Unfortunately, the days of bad guys wearing black hats is gone. To a cop on the street, they all look like people (and I won't defend the few cops who differentiate based on race). A cop's responsibility is to observe all the people finding the bad ones in the mix. They do this by enforcing all laws.

 

The consequences of breaking a law is being stopped. If you didn't renew your car's license plate, don't you think you should be stopped? If you had a headlight out, shouldn't you be stopped? What if I get drunk at a bar and drive home and while my driving is perfect - no signs of impairment, I fail to turn my lights on. Should I get stopped and arrested for DUI? Yet the only reason I was stopped is because I didn't have my headlights on.

 

... and introduce the person to the criminal system just to get him accustomed... I'm sorry but I keep getting the adrenaline rush from you.

 

I hope none of us gets arrested for solicitation one day.

 

We agree to disagree.

 

http://media.giphy.com/media/jXs52ENDhbz5C/giphy.gif

[+ quoththeraven]

For some reason, whenever I try to post this, there are strikethroughs I didn't intend. So I will have to do without the extended quotation I wanted to include.

 

Read this, with a quote from a concurring opinion by Judge Janice Rogers Brown of the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals discussing a DC police practice in a minority neighborhood. A tweet characterized her comments as "try that in a white neighborhood and see what happens." (For added oomph, change "Georgetown" in the proposed thought experiment to "Dupont Circle.")

 

Judge Brown is an African-American conservative/libertarian appointed to the court by George W. Bush. She previously served on the California Supreme Court. Despite her race, she is not an apologist for crime, and I disagree with her on some things, like the constitutional validity of economic regulation. (She doesn't believe in it.) But we do agree on this aspect of Fourth Amendment jurisprudence.

 

The issue is disproportionate stops and arrests, so saying "don't do those kinds of things and you won't be bothered" is both untrue and beside the point. Police stop, question, and harass black folks for things they wouldn't usually bother white folks about unless they had it in for them.

 

I recently saw pie charts showing the proportion of blacks arrested for drugs vs. whites and the proportion of black drug use vs. white drug use. While those two aren't completely congruent, they're a start. Since there were no notes or attribution, I can't verify their accuracy (c'mon, folks, cite your sources), but they purported to show most drug arrests are of blacks while the majority of drug users are white. If true (and while I can't verify the exact proportions, I have reason to believe what I just said is true), that's a pretty sad reflection on how much easier it is, and how popular, to paint a target on black folks while mostly ignoring white folks.

 

This is hard for anyone outside the situation to grasp and understand. That's why I recommend watching Do the Right Thing and identifying with one of the Bed-Stuy residents -- maybe Brother Love the DJ -- not the police or the pizza parlor owner, or reading Claudia Rankine's book Citizen. Or read about a stop and imagine how you'd react, especially if you thought the police stopped you solely because you're gay.

 

Hell, think about Stonewall. That was violent. It wasn't a peaceful protest like those led by Martin Luther King, Jr. That was "we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore." Unless one thinks the people who engaged in violent protest at Stonewall, no matter how justified or useful, deserved and should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law for the laws they broke -- laws more important and with harsher sanctions than bike-related infractions -- one is exhibiting bias.

[sincitymix]

It does remind me of a time I went to the AF Meps. With me were a black guy from Cali, a girl from Costa Rica, a guy from Argentina, and a girl from Brazil.

Morning arriving: We arrived at SLC airport.

Number of minorities seen: 1

Afternoon: We decided we did not want to stay in the Hotel. We all went out as a group to see the sites within walking distance. People took one look at our group and crossed the street to get away from us. We noticed women clutching purses closer to their bodies as they seemed to shrink into themselves, and then scurried across the street. We got many stares. (it probably didn't help that the girl from Brazil took off her high heels and was walking barefoot)

Number of minorities seen: 0

Mid afternoon: We went to the Mall close to the hotel. (repeat of afternoon minus the barefoot sequence)

The black guy said and this is a direct quote. " Geeze, these Mormons really are acting like we are going to up and rape some white women."

number of minorities seen: 4!! (a group of young black men and an Asian pulled up in a pink Cadillac (yes pink) and wanted the phone number of the Brazilian)

The only friendly person we met during our entire time in SLC, UT..?

A Mounted Police Officer. She let us pet her horse, she was very polite and laughed at our jokes. Wished us all luck in joining the Military.

 

sorry if I rambled here and kind of missed the point of the thread.

Its not just police who look at people with blinders on.

 

Not all police are into petty hassling. To me. a lot of it probably comes from hiring the wrong type of person. the Alpha male with an "ego/chip on the shoulder/axe to grind/power trip/I have a badge and you will respect my a-thor-I-tay." type person.

They really should give in depth psychological/sociological evaluations for police officers.

[Frequentflier]

Its annoying to read about the police giving tickets out for lights on bikes as that's another example of the local government allowing the hiring of the wrong people and poor City Council/Mayoral leadership. Ferguson learned a little recently by turning out more in the recent elections (although not as many people voted as should have) and the City Council is a little more representative of the population. It doesn't cost much (if any at all) money to call politicians, register and vote and write (online) editorials, etc., etc. And if citizens really get fed up, turn the TV off and take action for a change in their next elections big money won't have as much influence. Tampa should probably learn from the Justice Department report on Ferguson because it wouldn't be hard for that have the same review done in Tampa - hopefully from perhaps 100 or more complaints - not the senseless killing of a teenager.

[mike carey]

To me it is tantamount to corruption for a government to use the police to raise revenue by the rigorous enforcement of trivial laws without some underlying law enforcement or serious motive. Bike lights are trivial, but arguably enforcing speed limits has a real road safety motive, but it can still be controversial. State police forces are the lowest level of law enforcement here so we don't have local government with any capability to use police this way, but some of the fine sprees like Ferguson appear, to an outsider, to be particularly venal.

[+ SundayZip]

Regarding the cop arresting the musician in the subway, I actually feel sorry for this cop. He did not make whatever law it was that prohibits this musician from performing in the subway. He has a job to do and he did it the best he could. The cop went to great lengths to explain the law, gave the guy the option to leave and warned him multiple times. The musician saw that he had an audience and decided play like he was some sort of societal martyr. Whether people like it or not, individual cops cannot and should not arbitrarily decide which laws to enforce and which not to enforce. I live in a neighborhood with that has lots of college kids who think they’re above the law and think it’s cool to make fun of the cops. Cops are not perfect, but that doesn’t mean that they’re all bad.

[marylander1940]

...

 

The issue is disproportionate stops and arrests, so saying "don't do those kinds of things and you won't be bothered" is both untrue and beside the point. Police stop, question, and harass black folks for things they wouldn't usually bother white folks about unless they had it in for them.

 

I recently saw pie charts showing the proportion of blacks arrested for drugs vs. whites and the proportion of black drug use vs. white drug use. ...but they purported to show most drug arrests are of blacks while the majority of drug users are white...

 

Blacks also get fully searched more...

 

I agree with you on everything you said!

[instudiocity]

To me it is tantamount to corruption for a government to use the police to raise revenue by the rigorous enforcement of trivial laws without some underlying law enforcement or serious motive. Bike lights are trivial, but arguably enforcing speed limits has a real road safety motive, but it can still be controversial. State police forces are the lowest level of law enforcement here so we don't have local government with any capability to use police this way, but some of the fine sprees like Ferguson appear, to an outsider, to be particularly venal.

If it's trival, it shouldn't be a law. If it's a law, it should not be trivialized.

 

The new building next door to mine if full of inconsiderate people who party, argue and shout at all hours of the night. I cannot get an LAPD response to these loud disruptions of my life. But when these same folks park on the red curb in front of our buildings, I can get Parking Enforcement to respond.

 

So now LA has a great new source of revenue, the red curb outside my home and KARMA SUCKS!

[sincitymix]

If it's trival, it shouldn't be a law. If it's a law, it should not be trivialized.

 

The new building next door to mine if full of inconsiderate people who party, argue and shout at all hours of the night. I cannot get an LAPD response to these loud disruptions of my life. But when these same folks park on the red curb in front of our buildings, I can get Parking Enforcement to respond.

 

So now LA has a great new source of revenue, the red curb outside my home and KARMA SUCKS!

 

there are still a lot of very trivial and outdated laws on the books for many cities and states, which are not enforced unless either the cop is bored and wants to generate a bunch of frivolous tickets, or someone raises a huge fuss.

case in point, there is a road in vegas that runs across what could be considered to be a river or stream bed. the law when it was made, says no motor vehicle is allowed on the road crossing over this particular stretch of rd. yet it is a major street. law is still on the books, the cops could ticket hundreds, if not thousands of people a day, but they don't, because its a trivial frivolous law.

in VA its illegal to have unmarried sexual intercourse.

In Waynesboro it is illegal for a woman to drive a car up Main Street unless her husband is walking in front of the car waving a red flag.

http://www.gunslot.com/blog/outdated-laws-still-books-be-careful-out-there

[marylander1940]

there are still a lot of very trivial and outdated laws on the books for many cities and states, which are not enforced unless either the cop is bored and wants to generate a bunch of frivolous tickets, or someone raises a huge fuss.

case in point, there is a road in vegas that runs across what could be considered to be a river or stream bed. the law when it was made, says no motor vehicle is allowed on the road crossing over this particular stretch of rd. yet it is a major street. law is still on the books, the cops could ticket hundreds, if not thousands of people a day, but they don't, because its a trivial frivolous law.

in VA its illegal to have unmarried sexual intercourse.

In Waynesboro it is illegal for a woman to drive a car up Main Street unless her husband is walking in front of the car waving a red flag.

http://www.gunslot.com/blog/outdated-laws-still-books-be-careful-out-there

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BlGzb3AK8IA/UmXpjyOa08I/AAAAAAAAAEU/2RhbTXhp8BA/s1600/Abolishing+Sodomy+Laws.png

[sincitymix]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BlGzb3AK8IA/UmXpjyOa08I/AAAAAAAAAEU/2RhbTXhp8BA/s1600/Abolishing+Sodomy+Laws.png

 

Mississippi was also the last state to abolish slavery in the state... in 1997.. because they.. well.. "forgot".

[marylander1940]

Mississippi was also the last state to abolish slavery in the state... in 1997.. because they.. well.. "forgot".

 

And the last one in late 60's to legalize alcohol... Wife beating is still a legal sport down there... LOL