Hiring and Ebola concerns

[Steven_Draker]

And it's righteous expensive, not to mention a human rights violation (and, for US citizens, a constitutional violation). And it won't be effective.

 

Tell me, how many HIV infections were prevented by the Reagan-era ban on travel by HIV-infected individuals (which was just lifted in the last year)? How many SARS infections were caught by the Canadian travel ban? (Hint: none.) How effective have ANY travel bans ever been?

 

Thinking you can bury your head in the sand and it won't come here is idiotic. It's here. The solution to the African Ebola problem is in Africa. Not here.

 

It's amusing, though, to see all of the small government libertarian leaning talking heads suddenly calling for BIG DAMN GOVERNMENT RESTRICTIONS that won't be effective but will cost a shitload of money.

 

Panic is in full swing and as I said it's absolutely never the right response.

 

+1

[rvwnsd]

...While it looks as if the current outbreak (which came from a single man who simply lied about his exposure history on an intake form) may be contained, imagine the bedlam multiplied by 5 or 6....

 

Yes, ten or twelve ebola patients would cause pandemonium, mainly due to scare-mongering from real and fake news sites.

 

...I think we have enough information to require quarantine of all travelers with passport stamps indicating travel from Guinea, Liberia, or Sierra Leone until 21 days after their date of departure from those countries. That's not panic. That's sensible behavior.

 

Here's a handful of reasons why this is not sensible:

 

 

1. If someone from one of the three countries you mentioned wants to get out without a passport stamp or wants a passport from a different country, they will find a way to do so and will bypass the quarantine.
   
2. Assuming the passenger traveling from Guinea, Liberia, or Sierra Leone does get their passport stamped upon leaving one of those countries, they will have flown to an intermediate destination before boarding a plane to the United States. The second plane will be full of people who have not travelled to one of those countries, but could be at risk of contracting the disease. Shall we quarantine the other passengers, too?
   
3. A passenger traveling from one of the three countries to a non-US destination sneezes on a US-bound passenger in an intermediate airport. We know nothing about that sneeze. The sneezed-upon passenger doesn't know where the other passenger has traveled, but could have been exposed to Ebola. They will not be quarantined because they have not traveled to one of those three countries.
   
4. If the US did impose a quarantine, where would we put the people who are being quarantined?
   

[+ deej]

 

1. Assuming the passenger traveling from Guinea, Liberia, or Sierra Leone does get their passport stamped upon leaving one of those countries

 

Not a given. As soon as there's a ban, exit stamps will stop happening.

 

That's one of the things that mystifies me about the calls for travel bans. The US has banned travel to Cuba since the Kennedy administration yet Americans still go there. We've seen posts about it in this forum.

 

Travel bans DO NOT WORK.

[rvwnsd]

 

Not a given. As soon as there's a ban, exit stamps will stop happening.

 

That's one of the things that mystifies me about the calls for travel bans. The US has banned travel to Cuba since the Kennedy administration yet Americans still go there. We've seen posts about it in this forum.

 

Travel bans DO NOT WORK.

 

My point exactly!

[Guest]

And it's righteous expensive, not to mention a human rights violation (and, for US citizens, a constitutional violation).

 

 

Tell me, how many HIV infections were prevented by the Reagan-era ban on travel by HIV-infected individuals (which was just lifted in the last year)?

 

Would you mind quoting which part of the US Constitution a quarantine bans? (BTW, it's been done before with a multi-drug resistant TB-carrying US lawyer). HIV is so different from ebola, it could hardly be any more different. The method of transmission is obviously the most important difference (one has to have unprotected sex or unsterilized need exposure to get HIV, which is not a risk to the general public). Other differences include the fairly predictable incubation period for ebola, and the fact that those who survive ebola infection clear themselves of the virus and are no longer contagious.

[rvwnsd]

Would you mind quoting which part of the US Constitution a quarantine bans? (BTW, it's been done before with a multi-drug resistant TB-carrying US lawyer). HIV is so different from ebola, it could hardly be any more different. The method of transmission is obviously the most important difference (one has to have unprotected sex or unsterilized need exposure to get HIV, which is not a risk to the general public). Other differences include the fairly predictable incubation period for ebola, and the fact that those who survive ebola infection clear themselves of the virus and are no longer contagious.

 

Deej, I hope you don't mind me taking this one, with a little help from our friends at The Bill of Rights Institute.

 

The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America reads as follows (I added the boldface)

 

Amendment V

 

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

 

The key here, Unicorn, is the Fifth Amendment prohibits a person from being deprived of liberty without due process of law. Note it does not read "citizen," it reads "person." In the case of the attorney who was quarantined, due process of law was followed because evidence was provided to a court, the court agreed he posed a threat to the public, and a court order was issued quarantining him. This is why the police need a warrant to arrest and hold a person who is suspected of committing a crime. Again, they follow due process by providing evidence to a judge to issue an arrest warrant.

 

Here's a link to the Bill of Rights

 

http://billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/bill-of-rights/

[MsGuy]

1) The CDC just redefined 'symptomatic' as having a fever of less than 1 degree (99,5). How many guys with a couple of drinks in them are going to notice the cute stud they're hitting on is running a fever of less than 1 degree? Hmm??

 

2) What little data the CDC actually has on Ebola comes from studying other variants of the virus that occurred small outbreaks and in isolated, lightly populated areas in Central Africa. The current variant is behaving in ways contrary to their predictions. Especially troubling, it has a far higher retransmission rate than predicted. No one knows why. I repeat NO ONE KNOWS WHY.

 

3) The notion that this particular variant of Ebola is not infectious until the host becomes symptomatic is based very thin evidence. It is more of a best guess by the CDC than anything else. Just think a bit about how difficult it must be to compile solid case histories in Liberia right now and you will realize that this must be true. Hell, a big chunk of the local medical staffers are dead or dying. Local facilities have long since been overwhelmed. It's not like they're driving carts through the streets every morning and ringing a bell and shouting, "Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!" but it's way too confused for the CDC to tract down the exposure of each patient.

 

4) The long and the short of it is that Ebola is not a very well characterized disease. There's just not enough really known about it to be complacent.

 

So...no panic but no complacency either.

 

And take what the CDC says with a grain of salt. It's tasked with calming down the public, not with admitting it may not have a good handle on this thing.

 

Of all people gays should understand that the CDC is a government bureau and subject to political 'guidance'

 

Or does no one here recall its antics in the early years of the HIV epidemic.

[Steven_Draker]

http://schneide.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/onoz-omg.gifhttp://schneide.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/onoz-omg.gifhttp://schneide.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/onoz-omg.gifhttp://schneide.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/onoz-omg.gif

 

 

"Ebola and AIDS spread through the body with the same mechanism. HIV, which causes AIDS, and Ebola bud from the same cells which they infect. Both the viruses hijack cells of our body and inject genetic materials in the cell. As a result, the cells turn into a small virus factory. Before infecting the next new cell, the virus bud from the injected cell. It is really remarkable to see that two very different viruses share the same mechanism to bud. Both of them have been also termed by researchers as ‘engineered viruses.’ There is no cure to either HIV or Ebola infection. Ebola causes hemorrhagic disease and kills nearly two-third of its victims within days.

 

Both the viruses attach to the T-Lymphocytes, cells in the body that are responsible for the immune system. During the replication time period of these viruses, the T-Lymphocytes is disabled and destroyed. As a result, even common infections such as cold become lethal. The HIV virus does not physically destroy the cells as fast as Ebola virus. Hence, Ebola virus limits in number of additional people to be infected.

 

The HIV virus is stopped by preventive measures to further transmit. The virus is isolated, though theoretically till date. On the other hand with Ebola virus it is not possible. The virus is a biosafety level 4 agent. This means that it is handled under extremely tight security with all possible safety measures."

 

 

 

Doctor treats Ebola with HIV drug in Liberia -- seemingly successfully

 

(CNN) -- A doctor in rural Liberia inundated with Ebola patients says he's had good results with a treatment he tried out of sheer desperation: an HIV drug.

 

Dr. Gorbee Logan has given the drug, lamivudine, to 15 Ebola patients, and all but two survived. That's about a 13% mortality rate.

 

Across West Africa, the virus has killed 70% of its victims.

 

Outside Logan's Ebola center in Tubmanburg, four of his recovering patients walk the grounds, always staying inside the fence that separates the Ebola patients from everyone else.

 

"My stomach was hurting; I was feeling weak; I was vomiting," Elizabeth Kundu, 23, says of her bout with the virus. "They gave me medicine, and I'm feeling fine. We take it, and we can eat -- we're feeling fine in our bodies."

 

Kundu and the other 12 patients who took the lamivudine and survived, received the drug in the first five days or so of their illness. The two patients who died received it between days five and eight.

 

"I'm sure that when [patients] present early, this medicine can help," Logan said. "I've proven it right in my center."

 

Logan is mindful that lamivudine can cause liver and other problems, but he says it's worth the risk since Ebola is so deadly.

 

He also knows American researchers will say only a real study can prove effectiveness. That would involve taking a much larger patient population and giving half of them lamivudine and the other half a placebo.

 

"Our people are dying and you're taking about studies?" he said. "It's a matter of doing all that I can do as a doctor to save some people's lives."

 

Logan said he got the idea to try lamivudine when he read in scientific journals that HIV and Ebola replicate inside the body in much the same way.

"Ebola is a brainchild of HIV," he said. "It's a destructive strain of HIV."

 

At first he tried a drug called acyclovir, which is often given to HIV patients to treat infections that occur with their weakened immune systems. But it didn't seem to be effective. Then he tried lamivudine on a health care worker who'd become ill, and within a day or two he showed signs of improvement and survived.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/27/health/ebola-hiv-drug/index.html

[rvwnsd]

...And take what the CDC says with a grain of salt. It's tasked with calming down the public, not with admitting it may not have a good handle on this thing.

 

Of all people gays should understand that the CDC is a government bureau and subject to political 'guidance'

 

Or does no one here recall its antics in the early years of the HIV epidemic.

 

Comparing the Reagan-era CDC with today's CDC is a bit unfair. The current CDC head would have been a college sophomore back then. It would be interesting to know how many staffers from that era still work there. That being said, I agree that there is little knowledge to be had about Ebola. By anyone. Including the "news" sites and self-appointed pundits who claim the government is mismanaging the "outbreak" (in three people) in the US.

 

Your mentioning the initial response to the AIDS epidemic in the 1980's (we didn't know about HIV back then) made me stop and think about the similarity between the response at that time (closing bathhouses, shunning gay people, being afraid to use public toilets, etc) and the calls to ban travel and the notion of keeping kids home from school. Yes, we now know that HIV causes AIDS and that it is not spread through casual contact, but we did not have that information back then. In a similar vein, we do not know very much about Ebola. As was the case with many diseases and infections in years past, we are learning as we go along.

[Okliehomo]

My ex lives in Dallas. He drove in last week to spent a couple of days with me and the pup. I told him in no uncertain terms not to bring any Ebola with him.

 

He replied, "I promise not to spit or cum on you." Which I must say was a relief, for reasons other than Ebola.

 

So, of course, when he arrives, he walks in the door wearing a surgical mask.

 

What a card.

[Steven_Draker]

The seasoned traveler can often witness people wearing surgical masks at airports particularly in Southeast Asia and Japan way before Ebola.

 

But this one below is a first for me. A woman was spotted wearing a hazmat suit at Dulles airport ...

 

http://trendingcurrentevents.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Woman-at-Dulles-Airport-Wearing-Hazmat-Suit-for-Ebola-e1413537522167.jpg

[+ deej]

Deej, I hope you don't mind me taking this one, with a little help from our friends at The Bill of Rights Institute.

 

Happy to have the help!

[rvwnsd]

My ex lives in Dallas. He drove in last week to spent a couple of days with me and the pup. I told him in no uncertain terms not to bring any Ebola with him.

 

He replied, "I promise not to spit or cum on you." Which I must say was a relief, for reasons other than Ebola.

 

So, of course, when he arrives, he walks in the door wearing a surgical mask.

 

What a card.

 

I laughed so hard when I read this my neighbor heard me.

 

The seasoned traveler can often witness people wearing surgical masks at airports particularly in Southeast Asia and Japan way before Ebola.

 

But this one below is a first for me. A woman was spotted wearing a hazmat suit at Dulles airport ...

 

http://trendingcurrentevents.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Woman-at-Dulles-Airport-Wearing-Hazmat-Suit-for-Ebola-e1413537522167.jpg

 

I notice some skin peeking out between the glove and her sleeve. Sloppy. Damned sloppy!

[+ deej]

How Nigeria Stopped Ebola "Dead In Its Tracks"

[Guest]

 

"Ebola and AIDS spread through the body with the same mechanism. HIV, which causes AIDS, and Ebola bud from the same cells which they infect. Both the viruses hijack cells of our body and inject genetic materials in the cell. As a result, the cells turn into a small virus factory. Before infecting the next new cell, the virus bud from the injected cell.

 

Both the viruses attach to the T-Lymphocytes, cells in the body that are responsible for the immune system. During the replication time period of these viruses, the T-Lymphocytes is disabled and destroyed.

 

(CNN) -- A doctor in rural Liberia inundated with Ebola patients says he's had good results with a treatment he tried out of sheer desperation: an HIV drug.

 

Dr. Gorbee Logan has given the drug, lamivudine, to 15 Ebola patients, and all but two survived. That's about a 13% mortality rate.

 

Across West Africa, the virus has killed 70% of its victims.

 

 

The level of ignorance seems overwhelming to me. HIV and ebola virus are so completely different, it's like comparing a praying mantis to an elephant. Yeah, they're both animals and reproduce sexually. HIV uses an enzyme called reverse transcriptase to incorporate its genome into the human host's DNA, something the ebola virus does not do. The ebola virus simply injects its RNA into the cytosol (cell outside the nucleus) in a form which can be transcribed directly for the virus to have the cell make the proteins it needs. Lamivudine inhibits the reverse transcriptase enzyme, an enzyme ebola does not have and does not need. These two viruses are almost as different as any two viruses can be.

The statement that both viruses attach and replicate via T-lymphocytes is a complete and utter lie. Ebola viruses' targets are endothelial cells, macrophages, monocytes, and liver cells, not T-lymphocytes. To reach such malarkey is completely shocking.

 

And to answer another poster's comments about quarantine orders being illegal, it is simply not the case that public health officials have to go through a trial in order to issue quarantine orders. No one is being accused of a crime, nor being punished as a criminal. The fifth amendment relates to criminal processes, and does not relate to public health matters.