Eye Opener

[axebahia]

>What was the name of the agency again?

 

I have not disclosed it here yet. They have been good to me in the past, and if I raise the issue with them it will be directly. Besides, if I disclose the name here, they could take action against the escort, and I would not want to push him over the edge. I still have not sorted out that moral dilemma yet.

[Flower]

I still have not sorted out that moral

>dilemma yet.

Oh, you sorted out the moral dilemma, at least to your satisfaction, when you fucked him. Now you're looking for rationalizatons and hoping that someone here will come up with one to make you feel better about yourself:+

 

Yours was a very revealing post;)

[axebahia]

>Oh, you sorted out the moral dilemma, at least to your

>satisfaction, when you fucked him. Now you're looking for

>rationalizatons and hoping that someone here will come up with

>one to make you feel better about yourself:+

 

What nonsense. I think Devon had it about right. What was I to do? Refuse to pay, and send him away? How would the escort of reacted? How would the agency have reacted? Can you say with certainty?

 

Or should I have paid him, but not fucked him, and rather talked to him for 2 hours instead about his problems on my dime? As I said, the wrists were slashed some time before the encounter, and he was on the mend (and he was a good fuck - the bandages actually did not get in the way!) So I handled that part about right. The only moral dilemma that I have is whether or not to follow-up with the agency.

[TotallyOz]

If your moral dilema is whether or not to tell the agency, then in my opinion you should. The agency needs to know. If it is a good agency, they won't fire him but they will counsel him and watch out for him. If they don't know this happened, then more than likely some people that are very close to him and could help him do not know. In a very non-judgemental way, call the agency up and let them know.

[axebahia]

>If your moral dilema is whether or not to tell the agency,

>then in my opinion you should. The agency needs to know. If

>it is a good agency, they won't fire him but they will counsel

>him and watch out for him.

 

Thanks, but what if it is a bad agency? That's the dilemma.

 

I guess the other dilemma is whether to call him again directly, but I guess I can figure out the morality of that one myself.

 

:-(

[Doug69]

>If your moral dilema is whether or not to tell the agency,

>then in my opinion you should. The agency needs to know. If

>it is a good agency, they won't fire him but they will counsel

>him and watch out for him.

 

I can guarantee you that many agencies, if not most, would immediately fire an escort if some client called up and complained that he showed up for an appointment wearing bandages on his wrist and yapping about his suicide efforts and drug binges. Then what? Do you think that would do him good - getting him fired, having his paycheck disappear, being tossed out?

 

It's pretty obvious that this escort is still escorting because he needs the money. All of this Priestly talk about how the client should have "intervened," or counselled him, or acted more sensitively -- topped off by Flower's typically self-righteous condemnation of Axe for (gasp) actually fucking the escort (fucking an escort who shows up for an appointment?? who would do such a ghastly thing - it's almost as bad as abandoning your wife!!) -- assumes that everyone runs around looking for Moral Guidance, even if they don't ask.

 

This escort is probably working and doing appointments because: (a) he needs the money and (b) he wants to have his life return to normalcy. Showing him unsolicited pity, or treating him like a mental patient, or calling his agency and "telling on him," is probably most likely to drive him to his coffin.

 

Much better advice is to butt the fuck out of his business - stop being busybody Advice Columnists with people who aren't asking for your help -- and just treat him like he wants to be treated, like a normal person doing his job. The downside of such conduct is that it won't enable you to run around clucking about how wonderful and caring you are, but if you actually care for this escort, the best thing you can do for him is to mind your own fucking business unless he seeks your help.

[axebahia]

>Much better advice is to butt the fuck out of his business -

>stop being busybody Advice Columnists with people who aren't

>asking for your help -- and just treat him like he wants to be

>treated, like a normal person doing his job. The downside of

>such conduct is that it won't enable you to run around

>clucking about how wonderful and caring you are, but if you

>actually care for this escort, the best thing you can do for

>him is to mind your own fucking business unless he seeks your

>help.

 

I agree with much of what you wrote, but why then did he raise the issue during the encounter? Should he not have lied and had some explanation for the bandages? Or perhaps, I should not have inquired?

[Doug69]

>I agree with much of what you wrote, but why then did he raise

>the issue during the encounter? Should he not have lied and

>had some explanation for the bandages? Or perhaps, I should

>not have inquired?

 

He didn't raise the issue; you asked about the bandages. Once you did, he had only 3 choices: (1) tell the truth; (2) lie; or (3) refuse to answer.

 

I know this strikes a lot of people as amazing, but some individuals won't lie. Had he refused to answer, it would have made the situation tense and weird, exactly what an escort doesn't want at the beginning of an appointment. Although it's possible he told you this because he wanted to talk about it with you, my guess is that he told it to you for one simple reason: you asked.

 

The fact that he asked his agency to make him available; showed up for the appointment with you; and then performed adequately, demonstrates that he wasn't there looking for some maternal intervention, but was there to be fucked and to make money. You were just a stranger to him - a client - and you would have had no business giving him "help" that he didn't ask for and evidently didn't want.

 

If you liked him as an escort, and enjoyed your session, there is absolutely no reason at all to refrain from hiring him again. I love all these do-gooders who think that they are helping this individual by refusing to hire him and thereby cutting off his income and/or telling his employer something that would likely get him fired. With helpers like these, who needs enemies?

[JamesK840]

When this thread first started I was tempted to say you should have told him that next time he should cut up the vein, not across, then get in a nice warm bath if he really wants to succeed.

 

I'm glad I didn't, but it seems clear that you are struggling with worry about the guy, and a touch of guilt that you should have done more. So what I was going to say as a joke may help you in that it involves a certain truth about suicide...

 

It's my understanding that wrist-slashers are about the least successful suicide attempts, it is much more often a cry for attention and help then a real attempt to end one's life. The fact that he's still wearing bandages, and seems to talk eagerly about it back this view up.

 

The simple truth is that in our society, with so much puritan influence even today, becoming a prostitute, especially a male one, breaks many taboos. Add to that drugs and desperation, and you'll occasionally come across truly screwed-up people in the business. Can you fix them? No. The best you can do is show them how they can help themselves and hope for the best, being as supportive as you can afford to be (not necessarily talking money here, time could be far more positively influential). Don't expect a Hollywood movie miracle though, you'll probably be sadly disappointed.

 

So I say if you want to hire him again then do, but during your time together, if he's still acting erratic, tell him that you are concerned about his attempt, that you care about what happens to him and would be glad to help him find some help if he wants it and isn't already getting it. You may try calling social services or a suicide hotline or something before the encounter and get information from them on what you can do to help a friend with little money that's apparently made an attempt recently.

 

But remember, it's probably not as grave as you are thinking... in the younger generations 'attempts' are more and more common, as teenagers/young adults get less and less attention.

[Rick Munroe]

I agree with Doug. It's exactly what I would have said (well, no -- I would have put it in a kinder, gentler way with some sexual innuendo and at least one reference to either my ass or my cock or my deep throating skills). Anyway, Axe did the right thing.

[+ Axiom2001]

RE: I hate the obvious

 

Mr. DiSantis- I liked your genuine response. Ax... likes to debate tit -for- tat if you're not in agreement with his views. This has happened on other forums, thus I refuse to respond to his questions (which by the way are quite salient).

 

I presume he has his answers already and purposes the questions to solict an ongoing debate or a refutation of what others have written! AxIOM

[Will]

Wrist-slashers may be the least succesful, but it does work every now and then. Witness the recent wrist-slashing by the British arms expert who blew the whistle on the whole WMD thing.

[axebahia]

>Wrist-slashers may be the least succesful, but it does work

>every now and then. Witness the recent wrist-slashing by the

>British arms expert who blew the whistle on the whole WMD

>thing.

 

... apparently he missed the warm bath part in the open field, though feasting on some sedatives might have been an adequate alternative!

}(

[JamesK840]

It also helps to not look at the wound, the body has a way of lessening bleeding by clamping down on blood vessels, and it's supposedly most effective when you look at the wound. I think the warm water helps counteract this (was actually taught these things, as they apply to suicide, in high school biology, if you can believe it!).

 

That British arms expert, I just don't know... Maybe not as obvious as suicide by rifle, but it seems far more likely such a 'suicide' would be successful if the person doing the cutting wasn't cutting himself...! Sure was convenient for the powers that be though...

[chrismac]

RE: I hate the obvious

 

I agree with Franco as well (and Devon). If the questions posed were directed at finding the "correct" moral answer - there are as many as there are individuals who could answer. I personally wouldn't have gone through with it. But that's going by my set of standards. They don't work for everyone. If you (axebahia) had declined to proceed with the appointment, the escort may have left dejected, and even more depressed. Would you have been responsible for this? No. That's his issue to deal with.

 

You sat down and talked with him a while. Did you ask him if he wanted to proceed? Probably you did. I assume his answer was "yes". Are you sure he was being honest in his answer, or was his focus on the money and you could tell he was just agreeing to proceed based on that?

 

If the original questions you posed are to determine what kind of moral code, if any, exists in such a situation, then I would say that responsibility doesn't end when the session does. Did you contact the escort subsequently to determine his state of mind? Are you still in contact with him now?

 

Some could say you have a responsibility, when faced with this reality, to maintain contact and offer whatever assistance is within your power, as a human being. Others would argue that you have no such responsibility. Either one could be correct in this case; you also have a responsibility to yourself. :-)

[axebahia]

RE: I hate the obvious

 

>If

>you (axebahia) had declined to proceed with the appointment,

>the escort may have left dejected, and even more depressed.

>Would you have been responsible for this? No. That's his issue

>to deal with.

 

But why would his dejection in that case be "his" issue? And why would his elation or dejection after I fucked him be "my" issue?

 

>You sat down and talked with him a while. Did you ask him if

>he wanted to proceed? Probably you did. I assume his answer

>was "yes". Are you sure he was being honest in his answer, or

>was his focus on the money and you could tell he was just

>agreeing to proceed based on that?

 

And if his motive were money, should I have rejected him on that basis? (It was after all the basis upon which I selected him, the agency sent him over, and he agreed to come over?) Can you imagine if someone came to hire my legal services, but declined when I told them that my focus was on the money, and I was just agreeing to proceed on hat basis.

 

I am trying to understand the logic or morality that underpins your comment.

[chrismac]

RE: I hate the obvious

 

>But why would his dejection in that case be "his" issue?

 

Because only he, ultimately, can control his feelings.

 

And

>why would his elation or dejection after I fucked him be "my"

>issue?

 

It wouldn't.

 

>And if his motive were money, should I have rejected him on

>that basis? (It was after all the basis upon which I selected

>him, the agency sent him over, and he agreed to come over?)

 

My answer to this is: yes, no, it depends. The point is, you said he came over with bandages on his wrist after a suicide attempt subsequent to a drug binge. This is quite different than a "normal" encounter with an escort. So again, it goes back to how much responsibility you feel toward this individual as a person - not an escort. If you do feel responsible, then you would probably try to determine if by going through with the session you were doing more to help him or hurt him. This could in part be determined through some discussion with him, and in part with intuition. If you don't feel any responsibility - then no, it wouldn't matter whether you thought he we would go through with it for the money even if he felt terrible about it, nor would it matter if you even considered these things at all.

[axebahia]

RE: I hate the obvious

 

>This is quite different

>than a "normal" encounter with an escort. So again, it goes

>back to how much responsibility you feel toward this

>individual as a person - not an escort.

 

I can't say that I feel any particular "responsibility" as such, but I do feel "concern". What is less clear is how best to help:

 

1. call the agency, but I worry about adverse consequences;

 

2. hire him again directly, but would the money support the lifestyle of escorting and drugs that MAY have created or facilitated his problems;

 

3. Move on to the Next?

 

I think Devon's and Rick's advice have been most helpful, but I still have yet to decide how to follow-up.

 

BTW, did you understand the temporal dimension to my initial post?

[axebahia]

RE: I hate the obvious

 

>I can't say that I feel any particular "responsibility" as

>such, but I do feel "concern". What is less clear is how best

>to help:

>

>1. call the agency, but I worry about adverse consequences;

>

>2. hire him again directly, but would the money support the

>lifestyle of escorting and drugs that MAY have created or

>facilitated his problems;

>

>3. Move on to the Next?

 

 

And 4. or 2.5, if I called him again, I could probably get a deep discount because he had a good time but that be taking advantage of him, or helping him out?

[chrismac]

RE: I hate the obvious

 

>I can't say that I feel any particular "responsibility" as

>such, but I do feel "concern". What is less clear is how best

>to help:

 

I think that's most appropriate way to feel, if I were to lay my own moral judgment on the situation. I don't think you have a responsibility for him, but concern is only humane.

>

>1. call the agency, but I worry about adverse consequences;

>

>2. hire him again directly, but would the money support the

>lifestyle of escorting and drugs that MAY have created or

>facilitated his problems;

>

>3. Move on to the Next?

 

Again, this is just my own way of thinking, it isn't meant to be a judgment of what's right or wrong: I wouldn't hire him again, but neither would I turn away from him and just go on with life. I'd probably contact him, talk with him a bit to show some concern, recommend a counseling session if I knew of someone locally with that specialty, and then move on.

>

>I think Devon's and Rick's advice have been most helpful, but

>I still have yet to decide how to follow-up.

>

>BTW, did you understand the temporal dimension to my initial

>post?

 

I'm not sure I understand that question.