Are faggots allowed to call themselves faggots?

[Lookin]

I don't mind "Faggot" because I know what it means and it reminds me that even today being a minority is not necessarily safe, I don't mind "Queer" because I know what it means and I fit the definition. I celebrate "Gay" because it's a word that we as a group adopted long ago even tho it's original meaning was completely different.

 

 

(With apologies to those who may already have seen this little wheeze on the 'other site'.)

 

 

A catamite poofter named Jay

Thought that nancy boy sounded too gay.

'To be labelled a fag

Is a bit of a drag,

But I'll answer to queer any day.'

 

'http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ivhQJ-8cdJo/S8AfNWbRI3I/AAAAAAAAAW4/oveN72nihr4/s1600/not-gay-but-queer.jpg

[bigvalboy]

For the record, this is/has been a fascinating thread. Even among my friends, opinions on this vary greatly. Some as you can imagine absolutely hate any word used that could be considered derogatory to a particular group, and when I am with them, I respect that. Other friends use the "N" word or faggot almost tongue and cheek. So among those friends in closed social circles, I think it is fine. It certainly keeps me in check, and makes sure that I don't take myself too seriously.

 

So while all of this political correctness becomes a bit tiresome, there are times when many of us must, as my mother used to say, "hold our tongue"

[instudiocity]

I actually agree with you -- people can call themselves what they wish. That right does supersede the other issues involved.

 

And I also think members of a group have a right to call themselves something without that corresponding right being transferred to outsiders.

 

All I'm saying is that decision isn't made in vacuum and that decision does carry consequences. We've seen it played out with the n-word.

 

When I hear black people use the n-word amongst themselves, I don't take as a license to use it myself, but I frankly think less of them if they do. I think of them as lacking class and education and its use is a signal they don't respect themselves either. If they don't respect themselves, then why should I respect them? And that's a self-imposed burden they'll have to live with because I am not going to be the only person that reacts that way.

 

So they may think it's cute, funny, diffusing, empowering or whatever -- and again, it's totally their right as individuals and members of a group -- but it has consequences and not all of them are good. How others perceive us does make a difference.

 

I would transfer the same lessons to the word faggot.

 

So yes, other gay people may call themselves that all they wish -- I may not like it but I can't stop it and won't try.

 

But I do not wish to be called that -- not in jest by other gay people and definitely not in derision by anyone else. The only way I know how to get that across is to begin with myself.

DGuy, that's such an appropriate response. To me, exercising a double standard towards people does not celebrate diversity - it cordons diversity. Building walls with words beats the hell out of separating people by race, creed, or sexual orientation, but it's still segregation - segregation of words used to mean different things. While we shout about tolerance, we use the very words by which we judge outsiders as intolerant of us.

 

Which leads to the question of what is 'tolerance'? Can we continue in our small sub-group of society demanding universal tolerance while at the same time employing these words of derision and slur as if they have a different meaning when we speak them?

[bostonman]

Seriously, though, in my circle of friends, it isn't uncommon to hear gay people referred to as "sodomites" with full irony intended.

 

What's of course always funny about the "Sodom" reference is that, in some biblical research, it's held that the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were more about a lack of hospitality and kindness to strangers, than any kind of sexual debauchery. (Though yes, that's in the bible story as well.) They were just evil, inhospitable people in general - not specifically (or only) sexual deviants. But of course the terms "sodomite" and "sodomy" have taken on a sexual connotation, and that won't ever go away easily.

[Epigonos]

I sometimes feel that everybody has rights in our current society EXCEPT middle aged and older white males. In the minds of many African American it is unacceptable for someone to use the word ****** yet it is perfectible acceptable for them to use words like cracker or honkie. Please don’t tell me that this is true because African Americans, as a group, have been persecuted and middle aged and older white males have not. That kind of logic makes no sense. I absolutely REFUSE to feel guilty for “sins” which I have not personally committed. Guilt gets old and tiresome very quickly and eventually turns into resentment which is definitely not what we should be trying to achieve. My grandfather owned slaves in Virginia prior to the Civil War. I have NEVER owned slaves and I REFUSE to be made to feel guilty because he did. We simply must get beyond the concept of persecuted and of persecutor or this society will never become whole.

[Zapped]

For me, it all depends on context.

 

If someone were to call me "faggot" in the process of gay-bashing me, whether physically or otherwise, I'd mind a hell of a lot.

 

When a gay man uses it in way that seems to have an air of resigned self-loathing, it makes me sad.

 

When gay men use it in a way that reclaims it, much as many African Americans have reclaimed the "n" word with great enthusiasm, I say go for it.

 

And every once in a while I hire someone to flex his muscles for me, make me suck his dick, and call me "faggot." That just makes me cum.

 

As for the who-gets-to-use-it discussion, I'm in the the-people-who-are-in-the-group-the-word-is-used-to-demean-are-the-only-ones-who-have-social-permission-to-use-it camp.

[instudiocity]

... much as many African Americans have reclaimed the "n" word with great enthusiasm, I say go for it.

I just cannot remember the last time I heard an African-American/Black person use the n-word-er in a reclamation style positive uplifting way. Seems like more often than not, even A-A/Black people employ the n-word-er to put down one another...

 

I'm sure someone here will correct me with examples of the reclaimed n-word-er used in a positive uplifting manner. At least I hope my memories are deficient.

[Decatur Guy]

I just cannot remember the last time I heard an African-American/Black person use the n-word-er in a reclamation style positive uplifting way. Seems like more often than not, even A-A/Black people employ the n-word-er to put down one another...

 

I'm sure someone here will correct me with examples of the reclaimed n-word-er used in a positive uplifting manner. At least I hope my memories are deficient.

 

I agree. That's one of my issues with it. It rarely seems friendly to me.

 

Same goes for GURRRLL or faggot, etc. I rarely hear those terms in the context of genuine compliments or positive statements. There's usually a bitchy or passive-aggressive put-down attached to the usage.

[seeker630]

I agree. That's one of my issues with it. It rarely seems friendly to me.

 

Same goes for GURRRLL or faggot, etc. I rarely hear those terms in the context of genuine compliments or positive statements. There's usually a bitchy or passive-aggressive put-down attached to the usage.

 

That's my impression as well.

[Jaker27]

I just cannot remember the last time I heard an African-American/Black person use the n-word-er in a reclamation style positive uplifting way. Seems like more often than not, even A-A/Black people employ the n-word-er to put down one another...

Then you need to watch more stand up comedy then. I don't see it as a positive or negative. Just the way it is as long as it's a black person saying it.

[Jaker27]

 

And every once in a while I hire someone to flex his muscles for me, make me suck his dick, and call me "faggot." That just makes me cum.

 

That actually sounds kind of hot now that you put it that way. Something unique you'll never see in a porn anyways.

[instudiocity]

Then you need to watch more stand up comedy then. I don't see it as a positive or negative. Just the way it is as long as it's a black person saying it.

Comedy always makes some thing/person/idea the butt of the joke. Comedy objectifies something in pointing out the ridiculous nature of our diverse belief systems. I'd submit that comedy taken out of the context of a stand-up presentation format is offensive - hell, even in a stand-up presentation it can be very offensive. As long as your ox isn't the one being gored, you laugh.

 

Your justification just doesn't work for me.

[Jaker27]

Comedy always makes some thing/person/idea the butt of the joke. Comedy objectifies something in pointing out the ridiculous nature of our diverse belief systems. I'd submit that comedy taken out of the context of a stand-up presentation format is offensive - hell, even in a stand-up presentation it can be very offensive. As long as your ox isn't the one being gored, you laugh.

 

Your justification just doesn't work for me.

When someone like Chris Rock throws out the N word it's practically in every other sentence. Everyone laughs. It's all about context. He doesn't hurt anyone but the most sensitive. I don't think anyone would confuse that with Racism.

 

Now you take someone like Andrew Dice Clay and I might agree with you. He's practically made a career out of being an offensive misogynist and homophobe. A professional hater who IMO brings out the worst in people.

 

I contrast that with say lisa lampanelli who can be equally offensive but not in such a negative way. People don't seem to mind being the butt of her jokes which makes it even more hilarious.

 

Personally, my all time favorite comedian was the late George Carlin.

[Zapped]

That actually sounds kind of hot now that you put it that way. Something unique you'll never see in a porn anyways.

 

It is hot, at least for me (having a muscular guy call me "faggot" while I suck his dick). Took me a long time to accept/embrace my humiliation fantasies and enjoy acting them out. It can be extraordinarily cathartic.

 

I wish there was more humiliation porn. I think the combination of explicit sex and degrading speech is, unfortunately, one of the things that can cause something to be ruled obscene. I see why this is the case, but in the right circumstances it could be very hot.

 

On the topic of the n word: I had a fairly long breakfast in a place in Harlem (I'd missed my train) where I was the only white guy in the place. Many of the black guys addressed each other, or referred to someone else, using the "ah" form of the word. It didn't seem to have the bitterness with which I've heard some gay men use the "f" word referring to themselves or others.

 

As I said above, it seems to me that context is everything. Go to Harlem or another black neighborhood and hang out for a while. You'll hear what you hear. And then, if you're white, decide whether or not you want to use it yourself when asking directions!

[bigvalboy]

as i said above, it seems to me that context is everything. go to harlem or another black neighborhood and hang out for a while. You'll hear what you hear. And then, if you're white, decide whether or not you want to use it yourself when asking directions!

 

..... lmao

[Guest Starbuck]

It is hot, at least for me (having a muscular guy call me "faggot" while I suck his dick). Took me a long time to accept/embrace my humiliation fantasies and enjoy acting them out.

 

Hats off to you, Zapped, for your honesty in sharing this. I see it as another way of "reclaiming" the word--that is, making it serve your purposes. And also as a solid left hook to the jaw of political correctness. The word has history and power; it's never going away. So we can condemn it or avoid it, hide from it or use it as we see fit. Right now it strikes me that hiding from it is the only one of those choices that can hurt us.