What Are You Looking For

[Huey]

deej, I agree while I haven't met Devon his 'tone' works for me . Plus, a while back I hired one of his buddies, Adrian, who also has amazing 'tone" :9 .

[+ deej]

Awesome post, Will, and right on the money ... err ... mostly.

 

Like you, I like "something special". Usually.

 

But I'd be telling a lie if I didn't say sometimes I just want a hot fuck. ;-)

 

I think there's a little of each in all of us, and if we're honest with ourselves we'll admit it.

 

I've had regulars that I knew would always be "something special" and other regulars I knew would drop their pants on their way through the front door and be pre-lubed. I'd call them depending on my mood.

 

This is another of those situations where one size doesn't fit all.

 

It depends.

[axebahia]

>Devon is welcome in my home any time. I can't say the same

>about you.

 

Don't be to sure that I would accept an invitation from you, or offer you one. Hey, if folks like older jaded escorts, go for it. That just leaves more good stuff out there for me!:-)

[+ Charlie]

Will, I was riding with you until I got to the line "My basic fantasy...is that this is real." The paradox in that statement sets my mind reeling. The man you have described is the ideal lover, as opposed to sex partner, yet you are paying him to be with you. It is obvious from many of your posts that you are one of the true romantics on this board--it's one of your more lovable traits. But I'm not sure how healthy it is to transpose all the things you would look for in someone with whom you would have a genuine intimate relationship onto someone you are paying to enact a role. I wonder if it might not make it harder to negotiate a real relationship with the less than perfect human beings with whom the rest of us actually deal in our non-fantasy lives. I think deej is on target with his nuanced dissent.

 

I hesitated to write this, because I suspect it will lead you to hours of thinking and composing a response, but your comment really worried me.

[Will]

>I wonder if it might

>not make it harder to negotiate a real relationship with the

>less than perfect human beings with whom the rest of us

>actually deal in our non-fantasy lives.

 

Thanks, Charlie, for your concern. I value your wisdom, and take it gratefully very much to heart. In response, I can quickly say that the mode of my interest in escorts could very well be dangerous as well as immature. There's plenty of evidence on this board that clients go nuts over escorts, and that they project their fantasies of a "real" relationship onto their dealings with escorts.

 

But that's the way it is for me. First, escorts, like everyone else, are "less than perfect human beings." That's one of the things I like about them. In my professional life I encounter lots of bright, intelligent, sweet-natured, and very goodlooking young men. With some of them I develop genuine intimacy and, certainly, mutual love. But it isn't sexual. It isn't sexual because that wouldn't be appropriate, for sure; but it's also not sexual because I just don't feel sexually attracted to most men who are young enough to be my sons. I acknowledge that on occasion I have lustier longings for certain of these young men than I wish I did, but I can live with frustration. I'd rather have the occasional unfulfilled wish than not have those relationships. The benefits far outweigh the costs.

 

So it is with escorts. The ones I've named here are men for whom I do have genuine affection, affection as authentic as for anybody else I know. (How they feel about me is their business, not mine.) And, yes, I've inscribed my affection within the boundaries of etiquette called for by escort/client relationships, but so what? So is the affection that flows between me and my therapist, who is a lesbian, or between me and my two closest friends, who are married and as straight as God ever made any men?

 

I'm trying to say that all human relationships have a "shape" that seems to fit them. It's both party's responsibility to respect the outer contours of that shape; but whatever happens within can be incredibly rich. When I say that my fantasy with an escort is that this is "real," I am being as honest as I know how to be. The fact is that I do not have noticeable sexual fantasies for the stereotypes in porn films when I see them in real life. So it's not as though I'm suppressing one kind of fantasy in order to indulge another.

 

Finally, I think the danger of becoming addicted to an escort or to sex with escorts is a bigger danger than using an escort as a substitute (for what?). Thanks to having discovered the Wonderful World of Escorts about three years ago, I am more sexually active now than at any other time in my life. However, in order to be with an escort, I have to travel a MINIMUM of two hours; and it's been maddeningly difficult to coordinate even that short journey with my busy life. (Therefore, I'm having JeffOH-withdrawal, though not by choice.) It also happens that I go to New York on business very frequently, and so that's my built-in escort venue.

 

It takes more than stimulating conversation and hearty laughter and authentic caring to build an intimate partnership. I have those already with any number of friends. It also takes sex, and that's not going to happen in my life unless I hire it. That's just the way it is. Escorts -- and my attitude towards escorts -- don't interfere in any way with my mental health. On the contrary, my two best friends, my psychotherapist, and my psychiatrist have told me repeatedly that "my" escorts are the smartest thing I have ever done for myself.

 

This, obviously, won't be true for everyone, and I had to learn how to negotiate these feelings. But I have learned, and the only thing about it that I regret is that the passing years make me less and less interested in "hot sex." But they have done nothing to dampen my enthusiasm for those who provide it!

[axebahia]

>On the contrary, my two best friends, my

>psychotherapist, and my psychiatrist have told me repeatedly

>that "my" escorts are the smartest thing I have ever done for

>myself.

 

I am always curious when people on this Board say things like this whether this is actually what the therapists said, or just what the patient heard? I am not sure that the AMA lists the use of escorts among their approved treatment methods, but I suppose anything is possible.

[Will]

Maybe that's the New York version of the good ol' Southern potato-chip sandwich: Take two pieces of thick, white bread, such as Wonderbread, and slather both with generous amounts of mayonnaise. Place as many potato chips on one slice of bread as you can (stacking them, of course), put the other slice, mayo-side down, on the potato chips and press down hard with the flat of the hand. Enjoy with a guart or so of sweet tea.

[Will]

Whether the AMA does or does not recommend escorts, what goes on between me and my doctors is my business. I'm telling the truth. Thus, this isn't just what I "heard," although that fact may be so disappointing that you won't "read" it.

[axebahia]

>Whether the AMA does or does not recommend escorts, what goes

>on between me and my doctors is my business.

 

... except when you choose to discuss it here. At any rate, I'd sure like to know who these doctors are because it sounds like they need some professional liability insurance and/or legal advice. Sorry, but I really think that some important contextual information is being held back here by choice or because in your state you did not/do not hear the context in which this "advice" is given.

[Rick Munroe]

>Take two pieces of thick, white bread,

>such as Wonderbread, and slather both with generous amounts of

>mayonnaise.

 

Eeww...my Jewish mother is rolling over in her grave. Oh wait, she's still alive. OK, she's rolling over in Boca.

[btmstudnyc]

Surrogate

 

Well, some therapists do reccommend SURROGATES. Actually, they can be prescribed. I think it might be easier if you picked one out yourself...instead of just having any joe shmoe come over.

 

Will, happens to be extremely smart. I think he did some digging...YEEEhAW....to find the guys that are right for himself.

 

I think long-term clients along with long-term escorts are good for each other. I don't mind meeting new people....but I have to say that I also look forward to seeing familiar faces. It makes my job....much less of a job and more of a meating (misspelllled on purpose.)

 

JIM

[axebahia]

RE: Surrogate

 

>Well, some therapists do reccommend SURROGATES. Actually,

>they can be prescribed.

 

Hmmh, in which states? And can you tell me which HMOs reimburse such medical expenses? I couldn't resist the urge to google the AMA site. Here is the relevant part of what I found in terms of the view of the ethics of sexual surrogates:

 

"E-8.20 Invalid Medical Treatment.

 

The following general guidelines are offered to serve physicians when they are called upon to decide among treatments:

 

(1) Treatments which have no medical indication and offer no possible benefit to the patient should not be used (Opinion 2.035).

 

(2) Treatments which have been determined scientifically to be invalid should not be used (Opinion 3.01).

 

(3) Among the treatments that are scientifically valid, medically indicated, and offer a reasonable chance of benefit for patients, some are regulated or prohibited by law; physicians should comply with these laws. If physicians disagree with such laws, they should seek to change them.

 

(4) Among the various treatments that are scientifically valid, medically indicated, legal, and offer a reasonable chance of benefit for patients, the decision of which treatment to use should be made between the physician and patient. (I, III, IV) Issued June 1998 based on the report "Invalid Medical Treatment," adopted December 1997.

 

Last updated: Jul 22, 2002

Content provided by: Ethics"

 

I think # 3 would pretty much put sexual surrogates beyond the legal pale, but I am not sure that sexual surrogacy would survive under #1 and 2 either. Even so the AMA has also spoken about the ethical implications of a physiian having sex with clients (I assume in Will's case his "best friend" therapists were not also his surrogates, but just in case physician on the Board was thinking about moonlighting ....):

 

"E-8.14 Sexual Misconduct in the Practice of Medicine.

 

Sexual contact that occurs concurrent with the physician-patient relationship constitutes sexual misconduct. Sexual or romantic interactions between physicians and patients detract from the goals of the physician-patient relationship, may exploit the vulnerability of the patient, may obscure the physician’s objective judgment concerning the patient’s health care, and ultimately may be detrimental to the patient’s well-being.

 

If a physician has reason to believe that non-sexual contact with a patient may be perceived as or may lead to sexual contact, then he or she should avoid the non-sexual contact. At a minimum, a physician’s ethical duties include terminating the physician-patient relationship before initiating a dating, romantic, or sexual relationship with a patient.

 

Sexual or romantic relationships between a physician and a former patient may be unduly influenced by the previous physician-patient relationship. Sexual or romantic relationships with former patients are unethical if the physician uses or exploits trust, knowledge, emotions, or influence derived from the previous professional relationship. (I, II, IV) Issued December 1989; Updated March 1992 based on the report "Sexual Misconduct in the Practice of Medicine," adopted December 1990 (JAMA. 1991; 266: 2741-2745).

 

Last updated: Jul 22, 2002

Content provided by: Ethics"

[guyinsf]

RE: Surrogate

 

Not that I think many psychologists would "recommend" escorts (though I'm sure there is a variety of responses when a client discloses he has hired one), but I'd like to point out that psychologists are NOT medical doctors and hence have nothing to do with the AMA but, instead, the APA. And while the APA certainly has ethical codes about patient-therapist sex (not to mention which it is illegal), I don't think it has any specific formulated guidelines about "prescriptions" of any kind.

 

Perhaps your focus on the AMA had only to do with psychiatrists, but I just thought I'd point out that the initial comment was about more. Of course a psychiatrist "prescribing" the use of a surrogate or escort would also be different than a psychiatrist responding to a client's self-disclosure about hiring one. I don't think that the AMA has a code which requires psychiatrists to invoke blame or shame when a client says he has hired an escort.

[axebahia]

RE: Surrogate

 

>Not that I think many psychologists would "recommend" escorts

>(though I'm sure there is a variety of responses when a client

>discloses he has hired one), but I'd like to point out that

>psychologists are NOT medical doctors and hence have nothing

>to do with the AMA but, instead, the APA.

 

Fair point, that is why I used the phrase "therapist". Will's exact phrase referred to his "two best friends, (his) psychotherapist, and (his)psychiatrist". I didn't google the APA, but it would be interesting to know if they come out differently than the AMA with respect to rules #1 and # 2, if not #3 above.

 

>Of course a psychiatrist

>"prescribing" the use of a surrogate or escort would also be

>different than a psychiatrist responding to a client's

>self-disclosure about hiring one. I don't think that the AMA

>has a code which requires psychiatrists to invoke blame or

>shame when a client says he has hired an escort.

 

No, but by the same token I doubt very much that the AMA would approve of a psychiatrist telling a patient that "repeatedly

that (his) escorts are the smartest thing (he has) ever done for

(himself)." As I said before, I think there is more context here that Will is not hearing from his therapists or sharing with us here.

[Will]

RE: Surrogate

 

It's just as silly of me to rise to this bait as it is cheap of Axebahia to have dropped it in the first place. But I can't resist.

 

1. The punctuation of the string "my two best friends, my psychiatrist, and my psychotherapist" makes it clear that I am talking about four different people; had I omitted the comma between "psychiatrist" and "and," I could understand someone's mistakenly assuming that my psychiatrist and my psychotherapist are my two best friends. They aren't.

 

2. Nowhere did I state that anybody -- whether psychiatrist, psychotherapist, or, come to that, my two best friends -- had "prescribed" that I seek out escorts, nor did I say that anyone had even "advised" me to do it.

 

3. The idiom, "...best thing I ever did for myself," is just that, an idiom. It does not appear in quotation marks and therefore cannot be construed as quoting anything that any person or persons said to me.

 

4. It is my prerogative to choose to report something said of me in the confidentiality of a client/therapist or patient/doctor conversation, if I am the client or patient about whom it was said; I am not obligated to provide any "context" whatsoever. In the event, such contextualization would be beside the point I was making.

 

5. Only I know whether my psychiatrist, my psychotherapist, or my two best friends "advised" me to hire escorts.

[axebahia]

RE: Surrogate

 

>4. It is my prerogative to choose to report something said of

>me in the confidentiality of a client/therapist or

>patient/doctor conversation, if I am the client or patient

>about whom it was said; I am not obligated to provide any

>"context" whatsoever. In the event, such contextualization

>would be beside the point I was making.

 

>5. Only I know whether my psychiatrist, my psychotherapist,

>or my two best friends "advised" me to hire escortme

 

True, but when you discuss priveleged communications in a public forum, you lose the right to claim the privelege. Frankly, I don't care what your therapists actually said to you. My point was addressed more generally to that species of posts that comes from the anti-depressant crowd here from time to time. If either escorting or therapy works for you, go for it, but please don't imply that your therapists gave you advice or take their advice out of context when you report it here. I am sure they must also have told you take responsibility for your own actions and choices.

[tedbear]

> I find that there is just far too much negotiation about

>practices necessary with older escorts.

 

I greatly prefer "older" escorts and I have never negotiated anything with any of them. I either pay their set rate, or I don't contact them. And as far as negotiating what we're going to do, it simply hasn't happened with an "older" guy. Twinks, yes.

 

I also find "older" guys more experienced, more willing to be adventurous, better in bed and to have more stamina.

[tedbear]

>I am always curious when people on this Board say things like

>this whether this is actually what the therapists said, or

>just what the patient heard? I am not sure that the AMA lists

>the use of escorts among their approved treatment methods, but

>I suppose anything is possible.

 

I hire escorts outside my relationship with my therapist. In other words, she may be aware that I'm going to see an escort (or already have), and it is my decision. She is suportive and has indicated that this has been wonderful for my self confidence and sexual "issues" remaining after a sexual assault.

 

Recently, though, she expressed that I should be aware that a when I'm with a non-escort date, I will find it a difference experience and should be aware of taking care of their needs as well as my own. Even though I'm not sure where she got the idea that I'm not doing so with escorts }( (Oh once upon a time this was true but not any longer), but in my most recent escort experience, I kept hearing her advice and I spent far too much time thinking about taking care of the other guy.

[tedbear]

First, I look for reviews showing that the escort has entertained other heavy guys. Having encountered a few twinks that are picky about who they're with, I found their rejection insulting. So, I now make sure that the guy I'm thinking of contacting has had enjoyable sessions with other heavy guys.

 

After that deal buster, I look for attitude, Top/versatile, general looks. Body type is far outweighed by attitude. I see one guy who's a bit on the pudgy side and I adore our sessions together. There are times I hire a muscle stud, but that's not the reason I hire them (Steven of Portland/San Francisco, for example)--I hire them for thier attitude.

[axebahia]

>I hire escorts outside my relationship with my therapist. In

>other words, she may be aware that I'm going to see an escort

>(or already have), and it is my decision. She is suportive and

>has indicated that this has been wonderful for my self

>confidence and sexual "issues" remaining after a sexual

>assault.

 

Is she a psychiatrist? Once again, if so, I doubt that if I read a whole transcript that I or she would agree that she was actually "supportive" and I doubt her professional notes of the meeting would support that conclusion. I don't doubt that you and Will think you are hearing that, but isn't hearing voices part of what leads people to therapists in the first place?

[Rick Munroe]

>There are times I hire a muscle stud, but that's not

>the reason I hire them ...I hire them for their attitude.

 

Hmmm...and here all along I thought it was my deep throat, tedbear.

[DaninWA]

Rick,

 

A potato chip sandwich is a whole heck of alot better than fluffernutter.

 

Nothing, however, beats a bacon sandwich. Two slices of white toast slathered with Miracle Whip and 6 slices of crisp bacon.

 

YUUUUM!

 

Dan

[Will]

RE: Surrogate

 

>>5. Only I know whether my psychiatrist, my psychotherapist,

>>or my two best friends "advised" me to hire escortme

>

>True, but when you discuss priveleged communications in a

>public forum, you lose the right to claim the privelege.

 

Who says that I lose the right? In any case, who's the judge and jury here, you? But you've already appointed yourself the prosecutor. Gee, you're a regular one-man band of comme il faut, aren't you?

 

>Frankly, I don't care what your therapists actually said to

>you. My point was addressed more generally to that species of

>posts that comes from the anti-depressant crowd here from time

>to time.

 

I thought I recognized your voice from a previous incarnation. You're the anti-anti-depressant fanatic who thinks that everyone who needs psychotropic medication refuses to take responsibility for his actions and relies on drugs instead of character. Now I remember. The Gay Scientologist. Who are you in real life? Tom Cruise?

 

>but please don't imply that your therapists gave you

>advice or take their advice out of context when you report it

>here.

 

I simply state their acknowledgement that seeing escorts seems to be good for my mental health, which is their concern. I imply nothing. It's you who infer.

 

I am sure they must also have told you take

>responsibility for your own actions and choices.

 

Actually, they've never needed to do that, although it's none of your business whether they have or not. I'm an adult and, like you, I take responsibility for my own actions and choices without having to rely on the promptings of others.

[Will]

Well, next time try putting peanut butter on one slice and ReadyWhip on the other, and add a slice of onion.

[+ deej]

RE: Surrogate

 

Why bait it? Or take the bait you're tossed?