morally bankrupt people ??????

[taylorky]

i know i will take a lot of shit for this.........but....i really don't care.jeff went home about an hour ago,and i stayed downstairs with my folks until a few minutes ago when i came up to go to bed.i know this will appear disjointed but....it just hit me how lucky i really am. my folks really love each other. i can't imagine my dad being so uncaring and callous; that he would take the chance on hurting her and by extension me.....by having sex with another person be it male or female.we (my family and me) are bleeding heart kneejerk liberals........but we take comittment and trust very seriously.and i believe we are the most important people in his life. this is not and should not be taken as a criticism of the escorts that serve married or coupled men. they like Mc,Ds provide a product and don't nor should care if it affects your beltline , or the people that love you. we make choices in our lifes,and i don't understand how anyone can be so uncaring of the people they supposedly love . cheating is cheating and it can never be rationalized.taylorky@23:32-02/09/03

[+ Lucky]

Wow. To think I could be the first one to respond/comment on this new thread! Nah! I'll pass.

[+ glutes]

>,and i don't understand how anyone can be

>so uncaring of the people they supposedly love . cheating is

>cheating and it can never be

>rationalized.taylorky@23:32-02/09/03

 

 

And your point is???????????

[VaHawk]

>i know i will take a lot of shit for this

 

Yeah, taylor you know us all too well by now! But I won't give you any shit, as you are obviously a sincere young man, just inexperienced in the world so far! Nothing wrong with that, as a whole lot of old "farts" on this board would love to go back to that time in their lives where you currently are at. Keep posting whatever you feel like posting, as you've shown you can "roll with the punches" here, and it is great to get input from the young generation of gay men.

 

>but....it just hit me how lucky i really am.

 

No, there's only one "lucky" here and he is indeed totally unique! I don't know if the board could handle more than one!

 

But on the other hand as you state, you are indeed lucky in the sense that I assume your mom and dad know you are gay and that Jeff? is your lover. That would have indeed been an "unheard of" experience for the older gay men who post here, when we were your age, especially having our boyfriend come over to visit at our parent's house. It is great to hear that what the older gay generation has done and endured has had a positive impact on the lives of young gay men. Just out of curiousity, do you have any interaction with SMYAL?

 

It sounds as if you have a great mom and dad, and I sure hope you let them know that!

 

As far as monogomy goes, it is sometimes, but not often found in the gay world. I think it is great that you feel that way and if you continue to do so, you will probably have a more satisfying life than a lot of gay men.

 

I certainly can not speak for others, especially women, but it seems to me that monogomy is just not the nature of the "male beast". Those who can practice it are to be admired, but then again, those who can't should not be castigated (and no, I'm not accusing you of this, just stating an opinion). I've never been an escort, but I have certainly been with many, many men who were married and fathers and yes, even grandfathers. Just because a married man has sex with another person, does not make him less of a husband/father. No one can know what drives another person to do what he/she feels they need to do.

[Rick Munroe]

>we (my family and me) are bleeding heart kneejerk

>liberals........but we take comittment and trust very

>seriously.

 

Since when does liberal = uncommitted & untrustworthy? Politics has nothing to do with it.

[Rick Munroe]

>As far as monogomy goes, it is sometimes, but not often found

>in the gay world. I think it is great that you feel that way

>and if you continue to do so, you will probably have a more

>satisfying life than a lot of gay men.

 

That's a terrible generalization, Hawk. My life is no more or less satisfying now than when I was monogamous. Are you saying that most gay men are promiscuous & if so, lacking something in their lives? Sounds like something Dr. Laura would say.

[IM_Moore]

Warmonger are you trying to help him or push him over the edge? You are really a fucking right winged war loving moron.

[VaHawk]

Geez!! Dr Laura?? next thing I know I'll be getting called Anita! If that's how you interpreted my comments, then I guess I didn't state them very well. No, I am not implying that the majority of gay men are promiscous, but that very few are monogamous! There is a big difference, imo, between not being monogamous and being promiscous. I was just trying to say, that gays who have a commitment to another, even though they engage in sex with others, are a lot happier and more stable, than those who are only interested in sex with as many different partners as possible. I think these types of people have a "sex addiction" that like any other addiction can be destructive! Oh well, I guess I'll go have a glass of Florida orange juice!

[Rick Munroe]

>I was just trying to

>say, that gays who have a commitment to another, even though

>they engage in sex with others, are a lot happier and more

>stable, than those who are only interested in sex with as many

>different partners as possible.

 

OK, that's very different from what you said earlier. Being committed and being monogamous are definitely not the same thing! I'm a perfect example. I'm completely devoted to my Derek & used to be monogamous but now that the Pandora's box has been opened, I'll always be a slut...but a committed one.

[Guest fukamarine]

>>i know i will take a lot of shit for this

>

>Yeah, taylor you know us all too well by now! But I won't

>give you any shit, as you are obviously a sincere young man,

>just inexperienced in the world so far! Nothing wrong with

>that, as a whole lot of old "farts" on this board would love

>to go back to that time in their lives where you currently are

>at. Keep posting whatever you feel like posting, as you've

>shown you can "roll with the punches" here, and it is great to

>get input from the young generation of gay men.

>It sounds as if you have a great mom and dad, and I sure hope

>you let them know that!

 

Well SOMEBODY had to be the first to kiss his ass - might as well be you.

 

fukamarine

[Uncle Bill]

My late parents were also very committed to and loving with each other (despite many serious problems in their lives), and I know from an experience that my brother had that my father would have never cheated on my mother. The same is true of my in-laws. Great role models, so what happened to me?

 

My wife and I are best friends and love each other dearly. There isn't anything that either of us wouldn't do for the other or for our kids. The only problem is that sex stopped when the kids were born, and I mean stopped. I won't go into detail or answer questions about it, but I'll just say that it's not from lack of trying on my part. My wife and I have even talked about the possibility of my hiring prostitutes, but of course it was always just talk. Now, I've always relied on my right hand in times of need, but after about 10 years of denial, I was getting downright testy. Then the internet came along, I found out how easy it was to link up with people with a fair amount of safety and discretion, and I started hiring. It's helped my mood dramatically, reduced the tension over the lack of sex at home, and actually helped me to be a better husband, father and friend in most ways.

 

Do I feel guilty about the deceit that goes on? Absolutely. Would I be willing to give it up if I needed to for the sake of my wife/family? You bet. Would I walk away from it if my wife became "active" again? In a heartbeat. In the meantime, I'll keep doing what I'm doing despite the moral outrage it might cause some people on this site.

[IM_Moore]

>

>

>Do I feel guilty about the deceit that goes on?

 

IM feels bad for Uncle Bill. He sounds like a nice man though a little troubled by his current situation. Guilt is not a happy feeling. here are some words from a song for you Uncle Bill, I hope they make you think and maybe feel better.

 

Freedom... we're talking bout your freedom

Freedom to choose what you do with your body

Freedom to believe what you like

Freedom for brothers to love one another

Freedom for black and white

Freedom from harassment, intimidation

Freedom for the mother and wife

Freedom from Big Brother's interrogation

Freedom to live your own life...

(TRB)

[Guest Love Bubble Butt]

Taylor, you're a pretty good kid. And I don't mean that to kiss your ass as another poster stated. Sounds like you love your parents and you were just reconciling your thoughts about your parents being in love and monogamous and knowing that a lot of married men cheat on their wives.

 

The fact is that men look at sex much differently than women ... generally speaking that is ... there are always exceptions. But generally, it is easier for a man to look at sex as just a physical activity that is fun. Women are more likely to attach emotion to it. That's why when a man tells his wife (who has just learned that he cheated on her), "honey, it didn't mean anything." And she replies in disbelief, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN it didn't mean anything." To him, it really didn't. It doesn't change his feelings for her one bit. But to her, it's a personal betrayal.

 

But with that said. I agree with you (at the risk of coming under others' wrath). It's one thing to have, like Rick and Derek, an honest and open relationship where both partners agree that they can see others. But it's another (IMHO) when both partners have committed to a monogamous relationship (whether gay or straight) and one is being faithful and the other is cheating. That is not right. You shouldn't tell or make your partner believe you're monogamous and then turn around and cheat. That's not an honest relationship.

 

But I also think vahawk is right too ... because of the way men are wired. It is my belief that in the hetero world, women basically "tame" men. But in the world of gay men, both sides of the partnership are more open and free about sex. The different wiring that exists between men and women is illustrated by the fact (at least I believe it) that lesbians are more into monogamous relationships than gay men. And have you ever heard of bath houses, book stores, or sex clubs for lesbians? We just look at sex differently. Again, there are exceptions to all of this.

 

As far as whether gay men are more promiscous than straight men depends on how you define promiscuous. I don't believe that gay men are any hornier or have higher sex drives than straight men. But it is easier for a gay man to get just plain sex if that's all he wants. A straight guy has to jump through more hoops, wine and dine, to get laid because his partner is taught by society to "don't kiss on the first date," "don't be easy," "make sure he respects you," etc. But gay men can just look at each other with one saying, "hey, you wanna" ... and the other simply saying, "sure." (And that's even if they talk at all! hehe). And I also think that because it's easier for gay men to get sex, gay men can be and are more selective. Let's face it, put two drinks into the typical straight guy, and he'll fuck anything with a pair of tits and a heart beat!

 

But Taylor, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting or being in a monogamous relationship. There are many monogamous gay men couples. And I'm assuming you and Jeff are one of them. Personally, I would love to be in a strictly one-on-one, monogamous relationship. But I refuse to give 100% of me for 80% of someone else. It's not fair and I won't do it. I just haven't had much luck meeting the right one (Rick Hammersmith just won't commit! Damn it.).

 

Oh man, I didn't realized I typed so much. Sorry guys for the long post.

:7

[Guest jeffOH]

RE: The Inexperienced passing judgment

 

SEX does NOT equal LOVE!

 

When I was in my late teens I thought that if I had great sex with someone it must be love. I soon found that not to be true.

 

For me, there are different kinds of sex and if I'm in love with someone and have sex with someone else, that has nothing to do with the love I feel for my partner.

 

I don't believe monogamy should be a requirement for having a relationship. Monogamy can happen naturally if both partners have no desire to have sex with others. Monogamy certainly doesn't appear to be a natural state for a lot of men.(Thank God! They've been great for my business}( )

 

My advice is to keep a more open mind about such things. It certainly makes life more interesting.

 

JEFF

[email protected]

[Guest ortrud45]

RE: The Inexperienced passing judgment

 

Great answer, Jeff, I totally agree!

 

I was just thinking how to phrase a reply (in my limited English),

when yours came up: thanks to you my dinner did not overcook!

[Guest newawlens]

I guess you already noticed that after you started this thread with a post saying cheating can never be rationalized, you got a bunch of responses from people trying to rationalize it.

 

Like you I don't go in for rationalizations. A relationship may or may not include a commitment to monogamy. If it doesn't, I suspect one or the other partner is always going to feel shortchanged whether he admits it or not. If it does, there's no excuse for breaking a commitment and deceiving someone after you ask for their trust. All these old sayings about men being "wired" so they can't keep a commitment to one person don't hold water. It's just a way for people to justify a philosophy that adds up to "do whatever you want whenever you want to." You pursue that creed to its logical conclusion and you end up with John Gotti.

[Rick Munroe]

>Like you I don't go in for rationalizations.

 

But you certainly go in for generalizations. Every relationship is different and unique. Therefore, this entire conversation is pointless.

[Will]

This thread seems to strike a nerve for many people. Not having been in a relationship for ten years and doubtful that I'll ever have another, I don't have very strong feelings about "monogamy" and "cheating" as regards my personal life. But because Taylor is one of my favorite posters here, and because both JeffOH and Rick Munroe have given escorts' viewpoints, maybe a contribution from someone completely out of the fray will be of interest.

 

Like Jeff, I used to believe that sex and love were coextensive. If I desired somebody, then I was in love with him; if I liked him but didn't desire him, then I didn't love him. That was wrong. I can have passionate sex with all kinds of men. True, unlike some people I don't think I could have sex with somebody I really dislike. But escorts have taught me that sex, before anything else, needs to be fun and recreational. From them I've learned not to have sex with somebody who doesn't seem easy with himself, to have fun, to be warm and affectionate in the sharing, and to be unpossessive. If sex isn't fun and recreational, and if there's some kind of blackmail in it, then I don't think it's healthy, regardless of who I'm having sex with.

 

There's a difference between being a one-woman man, which is what "monogamous" literally means, and being committed to someone. I agree that sexual exclusivity may -- or may not -- be part of the relationship; but if the relationship depends on absolute sexual exclusivity for its very survival, then I really do believe that there's something wrong with it.

 

Why? Because sexual "fidelity" is no such thing. What we usually mean by that is a form of possession. On that view, a husband and wife "possess" each other's bodies, they are not at all physically autonomous. Jealousy then becomes my fear that I'm going to lose something that is "mine," my "possession."

 

Despite the centuries of enshrining this kind of moral and sexual kidnapping in both religious and legal strictures, and despite the rich "romantic" literature that has grown up around it, I think that when two people feel *obligated* to each other physically, when they feel that they actually *own* each other, I think they are involved in something that is profoundly anti-human.

 

This is no doubt a minority view, but that's what I think.

[Guest Love Bubble Butt]

RE: The Inexperienced passing judgment

 

>SEX does NOT equal LOVE!

 

I'm a little confused. Did you interpret my post as saying it did? I thought I was pretty cleat that men especially are able to look at sex as just a physical activity that is separate from feelings/love they may have for their wives/partners.

[Guest newawlens]

>But you certainly go in for generalizations. Every

>relationship is different and unique. Therefore, this entire

>conversation is pointless.

 

 

You already have three different posts in this pointless conversation, so I guess time must be hanging kinda heavy on your hands today.

 

You can take your pick of generalizations. Saying every relationship is different is also a generalization. I don't happen to think it's a true one. I've known some relationships that survived the exposure of cheating and some that didn't. One thing they all had in common was that the innocent party was upset when he or she found out. No one likes being deceived by someone they trusted. That's a generalization and it's true.

[phage]

It’s a tricky one. To me it’s all about honesty. You can have a committed relationship that isn’t monogamous, but how do you have a committed relationship without honesty? Unless it’s an open relationship or there is some kind of understanding, it is cheating and that’s dishonest, selfish and hurtful.

 

I know it’s never black and white and I really feel for men in hetero marriages. Trying to be honest could destroy their families. However, I’m not buying the ‘men will be men’ justification. We are also hardwired with a ‘fight or flight’ response and programmed to hunt and gather, but we overcome instinctual drives all the time. This is just one we choose to indulge because it feels so good.

[Guest ncm2169]

Minority opinion or not, Will, you said it better than I ever could have! BIG KUDOS!!:o

 

While it's nice to hear contrary views, I just plain object to the moralizing and condescension that too often accompanies their posts. For Chrissake, isn't this site all about celebrating individuality and the right of people to do "their own thing"??:+

[Guest ncm2169]

Sorry Phage, but after nearly 50 years I SINCERELY believe that women are "wired" for monogamy and men aren't (yes, another generalization, but I think still mostly true). I respect your view. I just hope you can respect mine.:* No judgments, please.x(

[Rick Munroe]

>I guess time must be hanging kinda heavy on

>your hands today.

 

No, but my balls were, until I got sucked off about 15 minutes ago and blew a good-sized thick load on a cocksucker's face. }(

[woodlawn]

>No, but my balls were, until I got sucked off about 15 minutes

>ago and blew a good-sized thick load on a cocksucker's face.

>

 

Somehow I had the impression you were into safe sex. It looks like I was misinformed.

;(