"The fee is for time only", etc.

[Guest ncm2169]

OK, lawyers, do your stuff. ;-)

 

(As always, if this topic has been discussed before, the obvious apologies.:o )

 

Do these disclaimers really protect anyone? If so, are there any actual examples of cases decided in favor of escorts/clients who have used these or similar words in their advertising/websites/emails/IM's?? :*

 

When first contacting an "escort" via email or IM, does it help if you ask if he is a cop, and he says, "No?" ;-)

 

This post is for those of us who DON'T want cops in our lives. If you like to do cops, that's a diff risk :+ .

[Guest jeffOH]

RE: "The fee is for time only&...

 

It's just as useless for a client to ask an escort if he's a cop as it is for an escort to ask a client if he's a cop. I've had 3 escort/friends arrested in situations where they had all asked the "client" if he was a cop. The cops all LIED!

 

It's just as meaningless for escorts to say on their websites that they're just charging for their time and whatever happens between consenting adults in private is...blah, blah, blah. If anything, I believe it says just the opposite. Cops don't read those "disclaimers" and think, "Gee, guess this one just charges for his time, onto the next one." Duh???

 

JEFF

jeff4men@hotmail.com

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

RE: "The fee is for time only&quot...

 

>OK, lawyers, do your stuff. ;-)

>

>(As always, if this topic has been discussed before, the

>obvious apologies.:o )

>

 

There is a concept in Law called the 'Reasonable Man Rule' which boils down to: what would a reasonable man(person) conclude.

 

It seems to me, regarding the 'fee for time' defense that a strong case can be made for overnights, particularly when receipts for dinner, theater, etc. can be produced. Obviously a lot is going on other than sex and the fee is arguable for time spent.

 

For an hourly the burden for the defense is like to be much tougher. The basic question for the Reasonable Man is: what is the primary if not exclusive purpose for the liason? One hour including sex doesn't leave much time for dinner, theatre, or 'deep conversation' for that matter. :+

 

Of course, this all presumes that you get to a jury trial which is unlikely for misdemeanors, or hopefully that you draw an enlightened judge. MOre probably the prosecution puts the pressure on to plea bargain for a simple misdemeanor rather than go to trial for more substantial trumped up charges -- an often successful ploy.

 

In the end the 'fee for time only' defense is a fig leaf to give those judges, juries, and the rare prosecutor a cover to deny conviction/prosecution that already are generally predisposed to the same end anyway. (My opinion)

 

As for cops lying, you can take Jeffs comment's to the bank!(IMO)

 

Entrapment is illegal, lying does not, in and of itself, constitute entrapment. Lying is not illegal. x(

[Guest Merlin]

RE: "The fee is for time only&quot...

 

I believe the "payment for time only" will work for a time. Until there is an agreement for sex for pay, there is no illegal act. So if there is a discussion by email "for time only" and no discussion of sex, there is at that time no illegality. So the escort and the "client" meet; if they proceed to have sex (with no prior discussion) the court could imply the necessary agreement, but obviously the cop will not actually get into any sex. If one is a cop he will undoubtedly insist on an agreement for sex before payment. Some agencies work this way. You call the agency and make the arrangement. They say the charge will be $100 up front and that there is not sex involved only dancing, posing, message etc. The escort shows up, you give him the $100, still with no promise of sex. The agancy probably is protected. Then the client says that for an additional amount he will have sex. He has broken the law. An agency in Honolulu did it differently. You call the agency and agree on a price and some understanding of what he will do. But you are told that when he shows up, there is to be no discussion of money with him, but payment after. This make the police evidence more difficult but probably does not protect the agency.

[Guest]

>Do these disclaimers really protect anyone? If so, are there

>any actual examples of cases decided in favor of

>escorts/clients who have used these or similar words in their

>advertising/websites/emails/IM's?? :*

 

Whenever I've heard of cops busting escorts or clients, there's always an explicit discussion of what the client gets for the cash. If there's no taping of the meeting, I guess a cop could perjure himself on the stand and say that such a discussion took place when it didn't.

 

>

>When first contacting an "escort" via email or IM, does it

>help if you ask if he is a cop, and he says, "No?" ;-)

 

No, it doesn't.

[Guest Vegas]

Escorts/Clients & the Cops: Just curious, do the cops really have that much time on their hands that they are resorting to entrapment schemes for escorts and clients? Do we have evidence of this being a significant problem or is this discussion purely speculation? The only time I have seen publicity where hookers & johns were arrested was when they engaged in activities in public and in effect became a public nuisance with neighbors complaining. If the cops are resorting to schemes of entrapment then Hooboy's Escort Reviews are an even more valuable tool for the client in the escort marketplace! Yeh, Hooboy!!!! :-)

[Guest newawlens]

RE: "The fee is for time only", etc.

 

Yes, this has been discussed before, many times.

 

Some of what is posted above is accurate, some isn't. The best way to summarize the situation is to say that if you hire someone to have sex with you or hire yourself out to have sex with someone else and in either case the other person turns out to be a cop, there is virtually no chance that saying or avoiding certain "magic words" is going to save you. You just need to accept that prostitution is a crime almost everywhere in the U.S. and that if you get caught doing it, you're caught. If you don't want to take that risk, just don't do it.

 

And yes, there are a number of cities where the police have engaged in sting operations designed to catch escorts or clients, respectively. And the fact that an escort is reviewed on this website is no guarantee that you can contact him without worrying about a sting. People who have been arrested sometimes agree to assist the police in setting up other busts in return for lenient treatment. Happens all the time in other contexts.

[Guest fukamarine]

RE: "The fee is for time only", etc.

 

>Some of what is posted above is accurate, some isn't. The

>best way to summarize the situation is to say that if you hire

>someone to have sex with you or hire yourself out to have sex

>with someone else and in either case the other person turns

>out to be a cop, there is virtually no chance that saying or

>avoiding certain "magic words" is going to save you. You just

>need to accept that prostitution is a crime almost everywhere

>in the U.S. and that if you get caught doing it, you're

>caught.

 

Just a thought. Some escorts are so well known as such, that it should be perfectly safe to hire them without fear of arrest.

 

But....... if you are hiring an escort you know nothing about, I think you would be safe to tell the escort that you want to hire him for a massage. I doubt if a cop would actually go through with the scenerio of you getting naked and him having to massage your nude body. It would take a very gutsy cop to do this.

 

Then once you're into the massage you could make moves to "go further" without actually being specific and discussing money. At that point it would be easy to argue that he was hired for massage only and during said massage he got you going to the point where you decided to get him to have a little consential sex between to individuals and that $$ had nothing to do with it as the initial contract was for massage only.

 

If you think this would NOT work I would be interested in hearing your reasoning.

 

fukamarine

 

 

 

 

 

fukamarine

[BobbyB]

RE: "The fee is for time only&quot...

 

Dear fuk,

 

I agree that it would take a very gutsy cop to do this. Especially since in order to obtain a conviction, he would have to tape the events and expose what may be embarrassingly small, or possibly erect (and still embarrassingly small) body parts to not only jurors, but coworkers, his captain, the DA, defense attorney, the bailiff, court stenographer, and God knows who else might be ogling slack-jawed at the tape.

 

Generally speaking, cops aren't always on a first name basis with Stephen Hawking, can't discuss any theories that Einstein might have put forth, and don't wax poetic about the balance and integrated tannins of a superb cabernet. On other words, they are not the most sophisticated minds to think outside the box. Especially when they are schooled exactly what legally constitutes "the box." (No pun intended) Consequently, they stick with the tried and true methods of apprehending their chosen target, i.e. "How much for a bow job, ya big sissy?"

 

A cop wouldn't just put himself in that situation and see what "pops up." If a cop did what you just described, he would be hard pressed to convince a jury of anything other than what they had just witnessed with their own eyes, which, again, could be embarrassingly small.

 

- BobbyB

[+ Lucky]

RE:Penis police..

 

Bobby, I don't know where you get your information but you couldn't be more wrong. A cop doesn't have to tape it, it's his word against yours, and guess who wins on that one?

And the idea that he would have to show his dick to the jury is just preposterous.

I hope that your post was all in good fun!

[Guest jeffOH]

RE:Penis police..

 

The cops don't have to tape it, but in sting operations set up in motel rooms they usually do. One friend of mine told me that after he was arrested, they took him to the room next door and he saw that they were videotaping everything.

 

Another friend, who was arrested, said that he was giving the female

"client" a massage(she had her shirt off and her bra was undone)and as soon as he touched the side of her breast he was busted. They said that he'd touched her in a "sexual manner" in the arrest report.

 

A couple of years ago here in Columbus, a vice cop had allowed a female escort to start giving him head. He said that he was just trying to obtain more "evidence" to make an arrest. He was transferred to another department.

 

JEFF

jeff4men@hotmail.com

[Rick Munroe]

RE:Penis police..

 

>A couple of years ago here in Columbus, a vice cop had

>allowed a female escort to start giving him head.

 

Well...did he get to cum? What was his dick like? Cut, uncut, veiny, thick? I need details, Jeff. Don't leave a horny cocksucker hanging; this is a good one so far.

 

>He was transferred to another department.

 

Where? I'd even take a trip to <gulp> Ohio to suck cop cock. }(

[+ Cash4Trash]

RE:Penis police..

 

Of course none of the disparaging comments about police officers in this thread apply to our own treasured RushNY. Cops have feelings too.

Plus Officer Rush has a 6'3" cop boyfriend so he probably doesn't have time to "wax poetic about the balance and integrated tannins of a superb cabernet". Much too busy with those handcuffs.

 

On the other hand, a friend was busted recently and the cops lied through their teeth. Friend refused plea and judge threw the case out. Reason not to plea - it leaves a record in case of future trouble.

[Guest Lunario]

RE:Penis police..

 

A couple of weeks ago I was in Los Angeles and turned the news on in my hotel, and lo and behold the police had busted a large prostitution ring in Beverly Hills, at various apartment houses. So it looks like the police still do vice busts, not only on street prostitution. I am not too comfortable about the safety of escorts, unless you know them. For some reason, prostitution rings so negatively in the minds of all those people from the "red" states who are both fundamentalist Christian and Republican. Sex is still for only married people and procreation, so it is a good issue to stir them up, by bringing in some prostitutes. I suspect that gay prostitution is equally a target. I guess there is a new Chief of Police in LA who is determined to clean up crime, and his theory is to go after the small stuff and the big stuff goes easy.

[Guest Ruben]

RE: "The fee is for time only", etc.

 

If a client is busted by the police for prostitution with an escort, what sort of consequences can he expect from the courts? Are the legal consequences for the client much worse in some states than in other states? Which states would likely be the hardest on the client? And what about Florida and Orlando in particular?

[Justice]

RE: "The fee is for time only", etc.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, I once saw an episode of Cops where a member of the New Orleans vice squad got naked (they blurred out the good stuff) during a bust of female escort that was shown on the show.

 

>And yes, there are a number of cities where the police have

>engaged in sting operations designed to catch escorts or

>clients, respectively.

 

The police several cities have been known to conduct sting operations. A now retired escort (who used to occasionally post on this Board) was caught up in a sting in Las Vegas. I read somewhere, that the police in one city raided a male escort service and then set up clients by continuing to answer the phone. And several years ago, someone reported here that at least one dancer from the Gaiety was caught in a sting operation at the Marriot Marquis.

 

Scary stuff.

[Justice]

RE:Penis police..

 

>A couple of years ago here in Columbus, a vice cop had

>allowed a female escort to start giving him head. He said that

>he was just trying to obtain more "evidence" to make an

>arrest. He was transferred to another department.

 

 

He's lucky that he didn't lose his job and his pension.

[VaHawk]

Is anyone who has replied so far a lawyer? ad rian do you have any input on this as you are an attorney although this may not be your area of expertise? I would assume that the penalty for the escort would be more serious than that for the client and that the laws and penalties would vary as to jurisdiction. All arrests are a matter of public record, so it shouldn't be that hard to search the net for these types of arrests to determine the penalties. I also think that most of the sting operations, especially the street scene, are conducted against heterosexuals as after all they are supposed to outnumber us 10 to 1. In DC for heterosexuals, a first time offense for the client results in a fine and mandatory "john school" according to a recent Washington Post article. It doesn't sound that bad as they get safe sex education and get to hear stories from hookers. A very interesting news article.

 

As an aside, has anyone ever been arrested by undercover cops at public cruising areas, or ever been caught by the cops when engaging in sexual activities with another guy? If so, what penalites did you endure?

[+ deej]

>I would assume that the

>penalty for the escort would be more serious than that for the

>client

 

In several communities in the LA area, police have started impounding cars of johns picking up streetwalkers. It's becoming quite popular.

 

It's mostly aimed at the str8 ho's & johns, but it's only a matter of time before they find us.

 

A penalty is a penalty, but having your car impounded in the LA area is roughly equivalent to castration.

 

Be careful how you evaluate penalties.

[Guest fukamarine]

RE: "The fee is for time only", etc.

 

>The police several cities have been known to conduct sting

>operations. A now retired escort (who used to occasionally

>post on this Board) was caught up in a sting in Las Vegas. I

>read somewhere, that the police in one city raided a male

>escort service and then set up clients by continuing to answer

>the phone. And several years ago, someone reported here that

>at least one dancer from the Gaiety was caught in a sting

>operation at the Marriot Marquis.

 

I am SO glad to hear this. It allows me to sleep better at night knowing that the police are attending to the really important crimes rather than wasting their time looking for terrorists, rapests and murderers.

 

Now if we could just get them to turn their attention to unpaid parking ticket offenders the world would be a better place for all.

 

fukamarine

[Guest newawlens]

RE: "The fee is for time only", etc.

 

>Just a thought. Some escorts are so well known as such, that

>it should be perfectly safe to hire them without fear of

>arrest.

 

Wrong. Anyone who has been busted may have made a deal with the cops to set up busts of others in return for lenient treatment in his own case. A lot of drug busts are made that way. I just said as much in my previous post.

 

>Then once you're into the massage you could make moves to "go

>further" without actually being specific and discussing money.

>At that point it would be easy to argue that he was hired for

>massage only and during said massage he got you going to the

>point where you decided to get him to have a little consential

>sex between to individuals and that $$ had nothing to do with

>it as the initial contract was for massage only.

>

>If you think this would NOT work I would be interested in

>hearing your reasoning.

 

 

As far as a cop getting naked is concerned, I have already pointed out that the cops can use genuine escorts to set up busts. The fact that the other person does something you think a cop would not do doesn't mean he isn't working for the cops. Is there some part of that you don't understand?

 

In the second part of your post you are talking about trying to set up a defense to a charge of solicitation. Tell me, how do you think you would assert such a defense? Take us through your plan step by step. First you get arrested for solicitation, and then what happens?

[Guest Mikki]

RE: "The fee is for time only", etc.

 

One of the managers in my Los Angeles branch was arrested for public sex in Griffith Park. He was fined 3,500. I think he said, plus all the legal fees he incurred which were not cheap. But, the but is the judge instead of giving him jail time, sent him to recovery meetings of Sex Addicts Anonyomous......I think he had to attend sixty minutes. He told me that after hearing the stories told in those rooms, his sexual pattern was so altered. He felt lucky to have just been arrested for public sex. Some guys went through all their money........on escorts. One guy re-financed his house and spent all the proceeds on escorts. So consider yourselves lucky that you have some control. For some people there is never enough sex, booze, food, money, and on and on.

[VaHawk]

RE: "The fee is for time only", etc.

 

That seems like a very harsh penalty to me. I got busted 20 years ago in a bookstore in Phoenix (God, I should stay out of Arizona!) during a raid by the cops where they came in and kicked open all the booth doors. They arrested me, the guy I was with, some poor guy who was by himself and only jacking off and a female prostitute (I never could figure out why she thought she could turn a trick in a gay porno book store). It was like a scene from a movie as they marched us single file out of the store and down the sidewalk to their cruisers, with me shouting "gay power", the guy I was with blubbering how he needed to call his wife, and the prostitute who kept tripping as her heels were almost as high as she was! :7

 

I won't go into the police brutality that happened that night as it isn't relative to the point. As far as penalty, I had to meet with the county prosecutor by myself, no attorney for me, where I agreed to a lesser charge of disturbing the peace (although that probably only happened when my partner got home to face his wife ). I must admit that at the court hearing it was embarassing to have everything recited in front of the whole courtroom. I wound up paying a $500 fine with six months probation which would have been rescinded if caught again. I guess I lucked out, as I was on my way back to NYC the next week anyway, but the incident does come up every time I have to go thru a background check for a job.