Are Cruise Liners Safe?

[Luv2play]

The accident this week off the coast of Italy of a Carnival Cruise ship, which went down with a loss of life as yet undetermined in numbers, raises questions about the safety of these mamouth cruise ships which have multiplied like mushrooms all over the world.

 

100 years after the sinking of the Titanic, it seems we will have to learn the lessons of maritime safety all over again. There were reports from passengers that the lifeboats were manned by waiters who had no idea how to pilot one, that diners were told to remain seated at their tables, even as the ship began to list. That there was chaos everywhere as people started st scramble when they realized the ship was sinking.

 

Many lifeboats couldn't be launched because they had waited too late and the ship was listing too badly. It seems the captain abandoned the ship and he is being held under arrest. I could go on but you get the picture. It was an accident waiting to happen.

 

Given that this was a ship owned by Carnival Cruise Lines, the largest such company in the world, I think there is going to be pressure to bring in new regulations governing how these ships are operated. I don't know who regulates these things as they operate in international waters. BUt I know many changes were made after the Titanic disaster and it appears to me changes need to made again before a ful-scale disaster involving the loss of hundreds of people happens.

[Diverdan]

The ships are only as good as the Capitan and Crew... and in this case, they were not up to the task, were not prepared for this disaster and were not reading the charts of the waters in which they were sailing. The larger the ship, the more pressure is on to make money and pay for this huge investments. When I sail, I only sail on the smaller cruise lines and the smaller ships. Again, it is always the buyer beware. Unfortunately most of the countries where these ships are flagged have little or no regulations and no personnel to inspect and monitor them. Fortunately even foreign flagged ships that dock in the US, have to meet US standards. This is so sad, as it did not have to happen, and I hope the survivors and the families of the deceased sue the pants off of Carnival.

[+ not2rowdy]

The ships themselves are much safer than they were during the Titanic era. Just like modern airplanes are safer than early aircraft.

 

The issue is not the ship but the but, as usual, the human factor. It was reported the ship was over a mile off-course. All that state of the art electronic navigation equipment. Probably even an autopilot system. Complacency. Goes back to crew training.

 

It was reported that the lifeboat drill was scheduled for later that day. Maybe that is something that needs to be looked at. Maybe a lifeboat drill, or at the least a muster at lifeboat stations, needs to be done before even leaving the pier. But pier time is very costly and the time available limited. So maybe ships need to schedule an emergency drill within a very short time of clearing harbor.

 

But if, as reported, some crewmembers assigned as lifeboat operators were clueless as to their responsibilities that, again, goes back to crew training. And is inexcusable.

 

It is very interesting in the photos that I see a huge rock imbedded inside the gash in the hull. It is also interesting that the ship capsized to the side opposite of the gash. Maybe if the ship had been just a few more feet to its right it might have settled to the bottom in a more upright position in shallow water.

[Luv2play]

I actually love boats and have sailed all my life. I own 2 sailboats and various other watercraft and know how to operate them safely. I have great respect for the water and while I am a good swimmer, I know the ocean and even lakes can be unforgiving to humans who are tossed into them from boats.

 

I have never been attracted to taking a cruise although I have fancied taking a tramp steamer to far-off ports and seeing the maritime life as experienced by commercial sailors. I think the cruise industry intentionally downplays the fact that these are actually ships they are sailing and that as such, are exposed to the hazards of the oceans as any other ship would be. All the advertising seems to be aimed at recreating a resort-like experience with the only difference being that you are at sea, often hundreds of miles from any land.

 

I watched a program only a couple of weeks ago that was about the Norwegian Line, which is the third largest cruise company in the world. It operates the same kind of boats as Carnival and caters to the same market. It gave a good idea of what life was like on board from the customers' perspective as well as the people who work on these ships. From the moment the passengers step on board, where they are greeted with champagne or orange juice, the message seemed to be, this is a care-free experience. Leave any cares behind, we will take care of you for the next week and make sure you are fully occupied with activities that have nothing to do with sailing. From rock climbing, casinos, yoga classes, wine-tasting, art auctions, it was the gamut of activities normally pursued at home or at resorts.

 

It must be a rude awakening when one is informed on one of these cruises that the ship is going down, as happened on the Costa Concordia at 10:30 at night while passengers were just digging into their first course at dinner. How all the pretense is swept aside in an instant and the reality dawns, that there is a cold unforgiving sea just beyond the doors and that floating palace is about to evict you!

 

No, I don't think I will ever take a cruise. I'll stick to my little puddle jumpers.

[robberbaron4u]

I haven't made the Atlantic voyage from the time that the SS United States was taken out of service some years ago. The newer liners are no more than floating Holiday Inns on a gargantuan scale with little concern for aesthetics, sanitation or safety. In the event the ship flounders, its every man for himself, crew first, from the moment the alarm is given. I have "cruised" on the smaller, high-end clipper rig lines, Windstar in particular, and, I found it to be a very enjoyable experience.

[adriano46]

I have been on cruises before -- almost all in the Mediterranean - and even was on the same sea route as this fated ship.

 

I have to agree with others here - that the super new liners are almost too big, and they try to make people really forget they are at sea. I was on a CARNIVAL cruise a year ago, and it was fun, especially as I was in a small suite with balcony and with concierge services etc... - but we did not have the drill for at least a few hours after leaving port, and as was pointed out, just the idea of boarding so many of us on one of these 13-story monsters, getting us to our rooms, getting the luggage sorted, getting the lay of the land etc... kills pretty much the first day. Given the big number of guests and crew on my most recent cruise, I did wonder if we would ALL fit into the lifeboats I did see available. I had no idea nor did IU think of the skill of the crew (any crew members) being able to man the boats, I just assumed they would know. BIG error it seems.

 

Sad for the people on the ship, but amazingly, loss of life is still not very high -- considering. No loss of life is acceptable, and captain and crew getting to shore before all bodies were accounted for, bad. Still I first imagined a loss in the hundreds.

[Steven_Draker]

Accidents happen

 

[video=youtube;-J6TTeL-wNs]

[OneFinger]

I've been on several cruises but not never on Carnival. I've always felt very safe and the required safety drills were always done as regulated. I'd sail again in a minute but have no desire to EVER sail on Carnival.

 

I've actually seen the specific ship that had the accident in several ports and it did not appear to be in good repair. In addition, I spoke with several people on that ship and they indicated the service was marginal at best.

 

I think you have to chose your cruises carefully and base it on factors other than the cheapest price. You get what you pay for.

[ChiTown]

Steven,

 

Thanks for the link, there were some pretty funny scenes. Hopefully, no one was hurt.

 

Accidents do happen. There are certainly some blatant cases of operator error, but I love to cruise and feel safe doing so.

[+ Cash4Trash]

Just a note - the cruise ship involved in the accident is from Costa Concordia, an Italian line, and not Carnival.

[adriano46]

Just a note - the cruise ship involved in the accident is from Costa Concordia, an Italian line, and not Carnival.

 

Cash4Trash, actually more precise would be to say it was the COSTA Cruise ship CONCORDIA, but it is all owned by CARNIVAL

 

"Carnival owns 100 ships and has 10 on order. Its brands also include Carnival, Holland America Line, Seabourn, AIDA Cruises, Ibero Cruises and P&O Cruises. The Costa cruise line has 15 ships and sails worldwide." (from the Carnival business page)

[+ Cash4Trash]

Thanks for the info - I thought Costa was a stand alone company.

[+ glutes]

Most of the blame should be directed toward Captain Coward, who was arrested on several charges today.

 

From KMEM-TV:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/01/17/italian-cruise-captain-committed-mortal-sin-by-disembarking-early-american-672181082/

[adriano46]

Capt. Coward is too kind. Seems he was arrogant and tried to show off the boat at thenperil of ship, crew and passangers. Wonder where they found this creature? Tapes (in Italian) of captain with Italian coast guard and rescue workers was damning and will guve fodder to those wishing to sue. Sad.

[Steven_Draker]

I think the cruise industry intentionally downplays the fact that these are actually ships they are sailing and that as such, are exposed to the hazards of the oceans as any other ship would be. All the advertising seems to be aimed at recreating a resort-like experience with the only difference being that you are at sea, often hundreds of miles from any land.

 

I watched a program only a couple of weeks ago that was about the Norwegian Line, which is the third largest cruise company in the world. It operates the same kind of boats as Carnival and caters to the same market. It gave a good idea of what life was like on board from the customers' perspective as well as the people who work on these ships. From the moment the passengers step on board, where they are greeted with champagne or orange juice, the message seemed to be, this is a care-free experience. Leave any cares behind, we will take care of you for the next week and make sure you are fully occupied with activities that have nothing to do with sailing. From rock climbing, casinos, yoga classes, wine-tasting, art auctions, it was the gamut of activities normally pursued at home or at resorts.

 

While it's true that the cruise liners try to create the illusion of a care-free experience, we often neglect the mandatory lifeboat drill required by international law at the start of every cruise. It would be interesting to see if that helped any of the Concordia's passengers.

[+ glutes]

Captain Coward Bullschettino...

 

When Letterman’s writers do their Top Ten Captain Excuses for Abandoning the Costa Concordia they’ll be hard-pressed to surpass Capt. Francesco Schettino’s own lame explanation.

 

According to The Guardian, the cruise liner captain on Tuesday told a court trying to determine whether he should be charged with manslaughter that he left the ship by accident.

 

“The passengers were pouring on to the decks, taking the lifeboats by assault,” the newspaper quoted him as telling a judge.

 

“I didn’t even have a life jacket because I had given it to one of the passengers. I was trying to get people to get into the boats in an orderly fashion. Suddenly, since the ship was at a 60- 70-degree angle, I tripped and I ended up in one of the boats. That’s how I found myself in the lifeboat."

[happyguy2]

many of my friends keep telling me to try a cruise, they all love it. Could you guys tell us what lines you feel are safe? I travel by plane many, many times a year, all over the world, and never let a plane crash make me think about stopping. But some of you have said you avoid certain lines. Could you share the good ones with us, I just might still take the plunge -------------- eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwww what a bad choice of words!

[Diverdan]

I have only taken one cruise, and that was several years ago with Princess from Vancouver to Anchorage (Seward). We had just started out of the Vancouver Harbor when we were summoned to the lifeboat drills. It must have been within 15 minutes of our leaving the dock. It is totally irresponsible for any cruise ship not to do the life boat drills almost immediately upon departure. It involved putting on our life jackets, moving to our designated spots, standing by the life boats and getting instructions by the crew. Accidents can happen but this was sheer stupidity and hubris.... That Capitan should go to jail for the rest of his life so he has time to think about what a stupid thing he did. By the way, I am planning for a cruise from Florida through the Panama Canal to LA or SFO next winter !! Not sure what line it will be on, but definitely not Carnival!

[Luv2play]

While it's true that the cruise liners try to create the illusion of a care-free experience, we often neglect the mandatory lifeboat drill required by international law at the start of every cruise. It would be interesting to see if that helped any of the Concordia's passengers.[/color]

 

 

That is not quite what the reporters and analysts have been saying on television since this tragedy unfolded. It seems that there is no uniform international law regulating the cruiseship industry. In the wake of the Titanic an international convention called SOLA was agreed in 1914 but it has no enforcement mechanism.

 

Liability is governed by where the cruises touch land and therefore all cruises by Carnival that touch a US port are governed by the US laws. The Coasta Brava line, while owned by Carnival, does not operate through US ports and therefore would be subject to Italian law and courts.

 

Regulations and rules concerning the operation of these ships is a national affair. In the US crews must be trained and passengers shown the safety drill before leaving port. In Europe it appears the procedures are more lax and the safety drills are often only undertaken once the ship is at sea. In this case, no safety drill had been held when the accident occurred only a few hours after sailing. There are many tales of crew members who were totally unhelpful and clueless as to how to evacuate a ship. The passengers were essentially left to their own devices.

 

As one commentator said, a retired executive of the industry, the crew are largely entertainers and waiters with no real training in seamanship. To have such a crew would be enormously expensive and uneconomic in the way these cruise lines are run.

[adriano46]

I have traveled different cruise lines, and I like many of the ships in the CELEBRITY line for clean, neat, comfortable cabins (on the Concierge level) with impeccible service, food, amenities. I did not attend any entertainments, and frequented the usual casino floor only 1 evening. Gym was so-so but plenty of other activities.

 

BTW we had our lifeboat drills always withn 15 -30 minutes of leaving port, most often 15 min, and all crew participated with us.

[edjames]

NYTimes reports today that cruise ship passenger contracts severly limit the liability of cruise ship lines against accidents and death.

Passengers on the Costa Concordia reported getting voicee mail message saying Carnival Cruise lines will refund their money. No amounts mentioned in the message or other sympatheic gestures. A class action lawsuit is in the works, however the article reports that cruise ship contracts have been upheld in the courts in past actions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/19/world/europe/cruise-lines-use-law-and-contracts-to-limit-liability.html?_r=1&scp=9&sq=costa%20concordia&st=cse

 

ED

[Luv2play]

Are class action law suits available in Italy? They showed the contract that passengers of the Costa Concordia signed on television yesterday and it clearly stated that Italian law had jurisdiction. It was stated by the expert that passengers from whatever country of origin would have to hire Italian lawyers and seek redress there as the contract was governed by Italian law.

[bigvalboy]

Fun stuff...

[JoeyBryant]

Having gone to the beach many a time, I know this probably doesn't mean much in very choppy or deep water....but the ship looked like it was so close to land. The Titanic was hundreds of miles from land. I'm surprised it was as bad as it was.

[Steven_Draker]

but the ship looked like it was so close to land.

 

And yet some of the largest ships sail away every day, several times a day "close to land" with no problem.

 

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/09/19/article-0-0B1786CD000005DC-167_634x337.jpg