It's About Time! - Law is out!

[Guest fukamarine]

>Bravo, finally some GOOD NEWS!!!

 

And long overdue too!

 

The joke is that he still remains a Cardinal and will do so for life. The Church will find a cushy job for him somewhere else and "life goes on"

 

What should happen next is to see the old bastard brought up on criminal charges. If it were you or me, we would be in court so fast, our head would spin. Nothing would make me happier than to see him do jail time. The rest of the prison population could then show him just what molestation is all about!

 

fukamarine

[Guest Bitchboy]

I have no problem with him remaining a "cardinal for life," because what the hell does that mean anyway. But I am in total agreement that this aider and abettor of child molestation should practice his "cardinalhood" in the confines of a not-so-cushy "penal" institution. He won't, of course, because religion has some hold over the powers in charge, whether they want to admit it or not. I feel extremely sorry for whatever good priests remain. While I don't find the need for one in my life, I have no doubt that there are honorable men who wish to assist people in matters of faith. These sickos, however, who coddle the molestors have to be weeded out in a timely fashion.

[Guest Hole_4_Hire]

>The joke is that he still remains a Cardinal and will do so for life. The Church will find a cushy job for him somewhere else and "life goes on".

 

Don't know whether to believe the "Cardinal for life" bit. But, I'm willing to bet next week's paycheck that he'll still receive a pension and benefits for life. x(

 

I think he deserves a long prison term where he can be someone elses bitch. God knows he enough of an asshole to be able to perform that role.

[BewareofNick]

It's better than nothing, but where's ad rian and today's Jewish conspiracy?

[Guest fukamarine]

>I have no problem with him remaining a "cardinal for life,"

>because what the hell does that mean anyway.

 

What it means is that he'll live in the lap of luxury for the rest of his life with ALL his living expense paid. And where does the money come to pay for all this? From the pockets of faithful Catholics who will still continue to put 10% of their paychecks into the collection plate to keep these bastards in the style to which they have become accustomed.

 

Just you wait and see. Law will be reassigned to some fancy titled administrative post. He might even be transferred as a Cardinal to somewhere else in the world where the molestation scandal has not had as much bad press. It really surprised me that someone has not taken a pot shot at him and if I were him, I'd spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder.

 

fukamarine

[ad rian]

>It's better than nothing, but where's ad rian and today's

>Jewish conspiracy?

 

Hey if the Pope wants to sack the Cardinal that's ok with me. I am still waiting to see the American Jewish organizations to condemn the murdering rabbi and rescind his title, and to address the issues of the epidemic of child sexual abuse that I have discussed in other threads. Bravo to Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church for this, and for their principled opposition to the war on Iraq. Let's see what the Jewish religious leaders have to say abut that one too!

[ad rian]

December 14, 2002

 

No Longer Taboo

For years, the Orthodox community has hidden it. Now, a confluence of factors is making their sexual abuse problem come out of the closet.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

 

By Julie Wiener

/Jewish Telegraphic Agency

 

Jewsweek.com | The Borough Park section of Brooklyn is one of America's most visibly Jewish neighborhoods.

 

On several residential blocks of one- and two-family brick homes, almost every front door has a mezuzah. Modestly dressed women push strollers, while girls in dresses and boys in tzitzit and yarmulkes play on the sidewalks.

 

Sixteenth Avenue, one of the main drags, is lined with religious study centers and yeshivot, a Jewish high school for girls, small synagogues and Judaica stores.

 

And in the middle of it all is an agency that runs a treatment program for Orthodox Jewish pedophiles.

 

Orthodox pedophiles?

 

For years, most people in the Orthodox world assumed their religious way of life and tight-knit communities insulated them from problems rocking the larger world, like sexual abuse.

 

There is still a great deal of resistance to discussing the issue, and a lingering feeling among many victims and advocates that Orthodox institutions are more concerned with protecting the reputations of men accused of sexual abuse than with believing or helping victims.

 

But fueled by a combination of factors — recent scandals, a growing cadre of Orthodox psychotherapists in whom Orthodox Jews feel comfortable confiding, and American society's growing openness about sensitive social problems — that sense of insularity is eroding both among the fervently and centrist Orthodox communities.

 

Just as it has begun to acknowledge that there are Orthodox child abusers and Orthodox drug addicts, the community is gradually coming to grips with the fact that it, too, has sexual abusers in its midst.

 

Through Jewish agencies like Borough Park's Ohel Children's Home and Family Services — whose sex offender program is believed to be the only Orthodox program of its kind — it is starting to confront the problem.

 

Among the indicators of change:

 

• In the wake of public allegations last year that a high-ranking professional in the Orthodox Union's National Conference of Synagogue Youth had sexually abused more than 20 teen-age girls, sexual abuse has become a household world among centrist Orthodox Jews. The O.U., which had been accused of protecting Rabbi Baruch Lanner, the alleged abuser, underwent an investigation by an independent commission, made some key staff changes and has vowed to implement policies to prevent future abuse.

 

• Four years ago, at the request of the Brooklyn District Attorney, Ohel — which already treated Jewish survivors of sexual abuse — created the first- ever treatment program specifically for Orthodox sex offenders. More than 30 people, half referred through the criminal justice system and half through rabbis and Jewish communal leaders, have received evaluation or treatment through the program; more are on a waiting list.

 

• At its convention this year, the Rabbinical Council of America, which represents 1,100 mainstream Orthodox rabbis, held an open and detailed discussion about sexual abuse led by Dr. Susan Shulman, a pediatrician who served on the O.U.'s commission investigating the Lanner scandal and lectures frequently about sexual abuse.

 

• According to the RCA's immediate past president, Rabbi Kenneth Hain, the rabbinic group is in the "embryonic stages" of creating a system for dealing with members accused of sexual misconduct.

 

• In the aftermath of two publicized cases of pedophilia — one concerning a rabbi teaching at a day school and another concerning a kosher butcher — the Chicago Rabbinical Council recently created a special Beit Din, or rabbinical court, to address sexual abuse. The court, which has four rabbis from different sectors of the local Orthodox community, consults with a team of psychologists, social workers and lawyers. It is believed to be the only permanent North American Beit Din focusing on this issue.

 

• According to David Mandel, chief executive officer of Ohel, Orthodox schools and other institutions increasingly are hosting workshops educating parents and teachers on how to prevent abuse against children and identify the symptoms indicating that a child may have been abused. In the past year, Ohel participated in more than 12 seminars or conference sessions on the topic, about twice as many as in previous years.

 

Sexual abuse is hardly unique to the Orthodox community, and many who work in the field say there appear to be far fewer incidents in the Jewish community than in American society as a whole.

 

Problems like victims' reluctance to come forward, difficulty proving cases, and a tendency of people not to want to believe accusations are vexing issues in any community. Even when caught, sexual abusers are difficult to treat, and many experts say they must be watched vigilantly because they never fully recover.

 

But there are certain aspects of Orthodox life that make such problems uniquely challenging.

 

Perhaps the biggest obstacle is the wall of silence and denial.

 

"We're a community that would like to believe that our religious lives prevent these problems," said Rabbi Yosef Blau, a spiritual guidance counselor at Yeshiva University's rabbinic seminary and someone known as an advocate for victims of sexual abuse.

 

Samuel Heilman, a professor of Jewish studies and sociology at the City University of New York, said the presence of sexual abuse "calls into question some of the deeply held values of Orthodoxy — mainly that if you maintain a strict attachment to Jewish tradition and values, somehow that would insulate you from all that is evil in society."

 

In addition, there is a historic Jewish tendency, particularly acute in the Orthodox world, to keep quiet about sensitive issues for fear of publicly scandalizing the community.

 

Many Orthodox Jews also fear that embarrassing information could jeopardize future wedding matches for individuals and their families.

 

Another obstacle is that the many demands of an Orthodox lifestyle — and the fact that Orthodox Jews must live within walking distance of synagogue — make Orthodox communities tight-knit. That can make it hard for a victim to come forward, particularly if the abuser is prominent or well-liked.

 

When the perpetrator is a rabbi or other respected member of the community, victims have an even greater difficulty, given Orthodox Judaism's reverence for rabbinical authority figures.

 

"If a kid goes to a parent and says, My rebbe did something to me, the parents tend to believe the rabbi, not the child," Blau said.

 

Perhaps the greatest challenge is that most Orthodox institutions lack a formal system for preventing or reporting abuse.

 

Exacerbating the situation is the fact that Orthodox Jews generally are more reluctant than liberal Jews to go to the police for crimes committed within the community.

 

Instead, Orthodox Jews tend to rely on rabbinical courts. But most such courts are ill-equipped to handle sexual abuse cases, and many — according to victims' advocates and Shulman — refuse to hear such cases.

 

Chicago's Beit Din is one of the few actively dealing with sexual abuse. So far, it has found three people guilty of abuse, alerting community leaders so they can keep an eye on the offenders and not hire them for jobs where they will be alone with children.

 

Rabbi Gedalia Schwartz, chief presiding rabbi of the Chicago Rabbinical Council and the Beit Din of America, a national rabbinical court under RCA auspices, urges victims to go to the police as well.

 

"Some might say, send" the abuser "to another community," Schwartz said. "That's no good because if he goes to another community he will do the same thing."

 

However, some communities do just that.

 

In her RCA speech, Shulman told of an anonymous rabbi who impregnated a student while he was principal of a school for Jewish girls with learning disabilities. When he was fired, he moved to another community where he is "still a prominent rabbi."

 

Despite the remaining challenges, some in the Orthodox world find solace in the fact that the topic is now on the table and that some treatment programs are out there.

 

Because of the Lanner case, "people who in the past would've said, ‘I'm sure he couldn't have done that and Just let it go are now saying, I heard about this and we can't let this happen again,' " Blau said.

 

According to Mandell and others, the changes are deeper than a mere reaction to Lanner.

 

In fact, sex abuse is being discussed and addressed not just in centrist Orthodox circles but in fervently Orthodox communities where many people — who do not read secular or even mainstream Jewish newspapers — have not heard of the Lanner scandal.

 

David Pelcovitz, director of psychology at North Shore University Hospital in Manhasset, N.Y., and a clinical professor of psychology at the New York University School of Medicine, said he increasingly hears rabbis frame the issue by talking about the concept of ha'alamah, the biblical injunction not to look the other way.

 

Mandel, Pelcovitz and Shulman all say that invitations are increasing to speak on the topic at conferences and to lead training workshops.

 

Pelcovitz, who teaches a pastoral psychology course at Yeshiva University's rabbinical school on dealing with sexual abuse complaints, said Orthodox rabbinical groups such as the RCA and the National Council of Young Israel also are starting to offer continuing education on sexual abuse.

 

Mandel noted that after almost every speech he and his staff give on sexual abuse, at least one adult privately comes forward to say he or she, too, was victimized but never before felt comfortable telling anyone.

 

"People are discussing a topic that truly wasn't discussed," he said.

 

***

 

{ © Jewish Telegraphic Agency

[ad rian]

MAY 3, 2002

 

Orthodox Rabbi Issues Warning on Sexual Abuse

Says Community Needs To Learn From Catholic Church Scandal

By AMI EDEN

FORWARD STAFF

The rabbi of a prominent Manhattan synagogue is using the occasion of the Catholic Church's sex scandal to warn that Orthodox institutions are often "dismissive" of abuse complaints.

 

Rabbi Ari Berman, the religious leader of the Jewish Center, a well-heeled Modern Orthodox congregation on the Upper West Side, issued the warning last weekend during a Saturday morning sermon. Berman said the Orthodox community needs to learn from the sex abuse scandal racking the Catholic Church. While asserting that sexual abuse cases are far more common in the Catholic community than in Orthodox circles, Berman criticized Orthodox institutions for dismissing many of the claims that do arise in their own backyard.

 

"Perhaps in the outside world there might be an exaggerated tendency to launch a witch hunt, to fire people and prosecute immediately," said Berman, whose predecessors at the Jewish Center include Rabbi Norman Lamm, president of Yeshiva University, and Rabbi J.J. Schachter, dean of a Modern Orthodox think tank in Brookline, Mass. "But in the Orthodox world we have the opposite tendency: to circle the wagons and deny wrongdoing. The concern for the reputation of the teacher or school is given greater weight than the child's words."

 

Berman's sermon comes as American Jews are struggling to understand the ramifications of the church's sex scandal for their own religious institutions. It also comes as the most prominent Orthodox organization in America, the Orthodox Union, attempts to recover from its own sex scandal involving Rabbi Baruch Lanner, a popular leader of its youth group, the National Council of Synagogue Youth.

 

An independent commission set up by the O.U. determined that the organization had failed to act on complaints about Lanner, who allegedly abused dozens of students over 30 years. In his sermon, Berman said that allegations of sex abuse were not limited to Lanner and had not disappeared in the wake of the O.U. scandal.

 

"Just a short time ago, a much publicized case of abuse and negligence in the Modern Orthodox world raised this issue in the public consciousness," Berman said, in an apparent reference to the Lanner scandal. "I wish I could say that these were the only cases that I have heard in our community, but they are not. There are others, and some with tragic endings."

 

To hammer home his point, Berman told the story of a pre-teen child who claimed he had been molested by a rabbi at summer camp. According to Berman, even though the rabbi had been the subject of previous complaints, the camp rejected the allegation, and a teacher at the child's school told the student "to stop making up stories, to forget about it and to move on." The family was ostracized, Berman said, and had trouble enrolling the child in another school.

 

Rabbi Steven Dworken, executive vice president of the Modern Orthodox Rabbinical Council of America, argued that Orthodox sensitivity to sex abuse has greatly improved since the Lanner scandal became public almost two years ago. He cited one Orthodox school that, when faced with a credible complaint just a few months ago, immediately fired the teacher, contacted law enforcement authorities and supplied the student in question with psychological counseling.

 

"The Lanner incident really awoke and sensitized the community," said Dworken, whose group represents more than 1,000 Orthodox rabbis. "We are surely more sensitized now than five years ago. You don't think that the entire world is more sensitized since the Catholic Church scandal? Unfortunately it takes such a scandal to sensitize people."

 

Meanwhile, Rabbi Avi Shafran, spokesman for Agudath Israel of America, a leading ultra-Orthodox group, said leaders of his community have no tolerance for sex abuse, and that those who commit such acts are blackballed from holding educational positions.

 

But Rabbi Yosef Blau, a religious adviser to students at Yeshiva University and harsh critic of the O.U.'s handling of the complaints against Lanner, argued that in both the Modern Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox worlds, organizations still do not adequately respond to sex abuse complaints. He acknowledged, however, that some progress has been made, with several prominent rabbis, including the O.U.'s new professional head, Rabbi Zvi Hersh Weinreb, instructing followers to bring sex abuse complaints to law enforcement agencies.

 

Many rabbis, especially older ones, simply find it hard to believe that any of their colleagues would sexually abuse children, said Blau, who sat on a three-person rabbinical court that decided not to take severe action against Lanner in 1989. But, Blau said, after hearing additional complaints and learning more about sexual abuse, he realized that he had made a mistake in not pushing for Lanner to be barred from working with young people.

 

Blau said that even when rabbis are dismissed or leave their job under suspicion, they often manage to find educational work in another city. Blau said he is strongly in favor of Berman's call for the creation of a "national registry" for schools, camps and youth groups to check before hiring staffers.

 

http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.05.03/news4.html

 

and the link to the earlier post

 

http://www.jewsweek.com/society/080.htm

[Guest Bitchboy]

>Just you wait and see. Law will be reassigned to some fancy

>titled administrative post. He might even be transferred as a

>Cardinal to somewhere else in the world where the molestation

>scandal has not had as much bad press. It really surprised me

>that someone has not taken a pot shot at him and if I were

>him, I'd spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder.

>

>fukamarine

>

 

Well, that is extremely sad if that happens, and I will follow it and make sure that my voice is heard by the powers that be. I suspect that won't do any good since we're apparently dealing with some of the richest and most corrupt people in existence.

 

What was good for me is that this broke at the same time my old high school had it's annual appeal for funding. In the past I've always given a small amount because when I came out years ago I answered their periodic inquiries about the present status of the alumni by telling them that I was gay and happy in New York. They published it in their alumni journal and I thought that was a good thing for them to do. However, nowhere in these quarterly journals have they addressed this horrific problem of abusive priests and the hiding of them. So when I received my phone call this week it gave me satisfaction to tell them not to expect anything from me until this problem is addressed boldly and honestly. In my mind, it is equally as evil to pretend it isn't happening as the aiding and abetting of child molestors by the heirarchy.

[ad rian]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

I am surprised by the relative silence from our on-line Catholic-bashers. Does nobody want to talk about the links I provided to articles about abuse by orthodox Jewish rabbis? Curious silence, indeed!

[Guest Bitchboy]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

>I am surprised by the relative silence from our on-line

>Catholic-bashers. Does nobody want to talk about the links I

>provided to articles about abuse by orthodox Jewish rabbis?

>Curious silence, indeed!

 

 

I try (although occasionally fail - must be my Catholic upbringing) not to read anything you post so don't wait for me to comment. I also resent Nick for baiting you on a thread that has nothing to do with Jewish history or culture, of which you have already proven yourself to be ignorant.

[ad rian]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

>I also resent Nick for baiting you on a thread

>that has nothing to do with Jewish history or culture, of

>which you have already proven yourself to be ignorant.

 

That's why I posted two articles from very prominent Jewish periodicals. Now which one of us is ignorant of Jewish history or culture? Do you care to comment on the substance of the epidemic of abuse among orthodox Jews, or would you rather keep your head up your ass and pretend that this is only a problem for Cardinal Law and the Catholic church?

[trilingual]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

Typical postings from Auntie Semitic, who reads worlds into things that aren't there, or manages to convince himself that "W-H-I-T-E" spells "B-L-A-C-K." The articles don't describe an "epidemic." In fact, they say that instances of child abuse seem to be fewer in the Orthodox community than in others. However, the articles describe a community acknowledging ON ITS OWN that it isn't insulated from human failings, and taking steps to deal with child abuse problems within its own world. The Orthodox community seems to be doing this voluntarily, and not reluctantly, like the Roman Catholic Church, which did little or nothing about the problem until its dioceses faced bankruptcy because of the endless lawsuits against them.

 

In any case, isn't Auntie Semitic's obsession with the Orthodox community fascinating all by itself? I mean, he's drawn to it like the moth to the flame. He just can't stay away from it. In fact, doesn't it sound like he's actually turned on by the sight of felt hats and shtreimels, beards, sidelocks and tzitzit! Unfortunately for Auntie Semitic, none of those yeshiva bochers would give him the time of day, let alone allow him to kiss the hem of their shmatas. And there don't seem to be any Orthodox escorts around to go to the Plaza Athenée and lash Auntie S. with their tefillin straps! (Now there's a market niche that needs filling! Or at least a costume and equipment some current escort could add to his fantasy wardrobe. . .)

 

What's a poor, frustrated Auntie S. to do? I've got an idea, though. Maybe we could all chip in and buy Auntie Semitic a one-way bus ticket to Lancaster County, PA. Maybe he'll have better luck with the Amish! At least it would give him something else to obsess about. And could we dare hope they don't have Internet access in Amish country?

[+ Lucky]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

I agree with Bitchboy!

[Guest Bitchboy]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

>I agree with Bitchboy!

 

 

Of course you do; you've always shown yourself to be man of principle and discernment.

[ad rian]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

>I agree with Bitchboy!

 

So you deny the substance of the articles from the Jewish periodicals too? Surely, they must be antisemitic too, n'est ce pas? It must be fun to believe that abuse either exists among only one religious group except that of your own, or can only be discussed in relation to one group other than your own.

 

Great to see that Trilingual's treatment for his multiple personality disorder has not yet affected his numerous contributions and contributors to this site!

[ad rian]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

>However, the articles describe a community

>acknowledging ON ITS OWN that it isn't insulated from human

>failings, and taking steps to deal with child abuse problems

>within its own world. The Orthodox community seems to be

>doing this voluntarily, and not reluctantly, like the Roman

>Catholic Church, which did little or nothing about the problem

>until its dioceses faced bankruptcy because of the endless

>lawsuits against them.

 

Did you read the articles with your rose-colored glasses on again? Let's see now the catholic church needed to be pushed from jewish queens to reform, but the orthodox sects changed on their own? I suggest to you that catholics are working to address this problem just as some jews, including some orthodox ones, are working to change their problem. Do the following quotes that you seemed to miss from the articles sound familiar:

 

"Many rabbis, especially older ones, simply find it hard to believe that any of their colleagues would sexually abuse children, said Blau, who sat on a three-person rabbinical court that decided not to take severe action against Lanner in 1989."

 

"Blau said that even when rabbis are dismissed or leave their job under suspicion, they often manage to find educational work in another city."

 

"There is still a great deal of resistance to discussing the issue, and a lingering feeling among many victims and advocates that Orthodox institutions are more concerned with protecting the reputations of men accused of sexual abuse than with believing or helping victims."

 

"Problems like victims' reluctance to come forward, difficulty proving cases, and a tendency of people not to want to believe accusations are vexing issues in any community. Even when caught, sexual abusers are difficult to treat, and many experts say they must be watched vigilantly because they never fully recover."

 

""We're a community that would like to believe that our religious lives prevent these problems," said Rabbi Yosef Blau, a spiritual guidance counselor at Yeshiva University's rabbinic seminary and someone known as an advocate for victims of sexual abuse."

 

"In addition, there is a historic Jewish tendency, particularly acute in the Orthodox world, to keep quiet about sensitive issues for fear of publicly scandalizing the community."

 

Hey, if it really makes you feel better to believe that this is just a catholic problem, put your pink triangle on your yarmulke and shove them both up your ass or asses as the case may be and enjoy it!

[trilingual]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

See what I mean about Auntie S. reading non-existent things into everything?

 

Did ANYBODY here deny the authenticity of the articles? Did ANYBODY say that child abuse exists only in the Roman Catholic Church? Maybe on Auntie Semitic's planet, but not here!

[trilingual]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

>Let's see now the catholic church needed to be pushed from jewish queens to reform, but the orthodox sects changed on their own?

 

Gee, last time I read any articles on the subject it seemed to me that it's CATHOLIC men who've been suing the Church for having been abused by its agents and employees. It's been CATHOLIC prosecutors who've initiated action against the Church because of the organized cover-up by the hierarchy.

 

Jewish queens, as far as I know, have plenty to worry about in our own communities without having to bother about the Catholic church's problem of pedophile priests. Unless, of course, those priests were also molesting Jewish children. . . Otherwise, we need to spend our time taking care of our own issues and dealing with the Auntie Semites of the world.

[ad rian]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

>Jewish queens, as far as I know, have plenty to worry about

>in our own communities without having to bother about the

>Catholic church's problem of pedophile priests. Unless, of

>course, those priests were also molesting Jewish children. . .

 

Would that that were true? If it were, you and others of your ilk here would have made the posts about abuse in the orthodox jewish sects rather than initating and responding to posts about abuse in the RC church. Nonetheless, I guess this is as close to an admission that one can expect in such circumstances. The initial silence was victory enough, but I thought I would take a victory lap notwithstanding!

[Guest Bitchboy]

Bravo, finally some GOOD NEWS!!!

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2572517.stm

[trilingual]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

Victory? I have a feeling only you sees one, but feel free to run yourself into apoplexy.

 

Anyway, as far as I can tell, the original posts about abuse in the Catholic church were made by CATHOLICS. On the whole, the sexual sins of Catholics aren't a big Jewish concern. As for abuse in the Orthodox communities, as the articles indicate it's a problem but not one that seems to be enormously widespread. The communities in question, according to the articles posted, appear to be aware of the problems and are taking appropriate measures to deal with them. Otherwise, the situations aren't really comparable. For one thing, there doesn't seem to be any comparison, numerically. More importantly, the Jewish community (even the Orthodox community) isn't monolithic. In other words, it's not one single, hierarchical organization, the way the Roman Catholic Church is. Abusers, even if they are rabbis, at most are representatives, agents and/or employees of their own individual congregations, not of the entire faith. If a congregation's board of directors were to cover up misdeeds of its rabbi or of other employees, that's as far as the issue of responsibility/liability goes. It doesn't run all the way through the hierarchy, all the way up to the Pope, as it does in the Catholic Church. (There IS no Jewish Pope, nor any equivalent.)

 

That's what Auntie Semitic seems to be congenitally incapable of understanding. If a rabbi, or Protestant pastor (in many denominations) or Islamic mullah abuses kids or commits other misdeeds, and their congregation tries to conceal their crimes, it doesn't implicate their denomination or faith the way similarly covered up misdeeds by Catholic priests implicate the church as an institution. It's apples and oranges. What Auntie Semitic also never seems to understand is that people's disgust with the Catholic church, as an institution, is not the same as hating all Catholics, any more than most foreigners' dislike of the actions of the U.S. government means that they hate all Americans, as individuals. That contrasts with Auntie S.'s seething hatred of all Jews, and his constant efforts to blame all Jews for the misdeeds of a few.

[ad rian]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

>For one thing, there

>doesn't seem to be any comparison, numerically.

 

Actually, as I have pointed out in other threads, most academic surveys conclude that: 1) there is no greater incidence of abuse in the RC Church than in the general population; and 2) there is no greater incidence of abuse in the RC Church than in other denominations. That's what makes this a witch hunt.

 

>More

>importantly, the Jewish community (even the Orthodox

>community) isn't monolithic.

 

Are you sugesting that the Catholic community is monolithic? Interesting?

 

>In other words, it's not one

>single, hierarchical organization, the way the Roman Catholic

>Church is. Abusers, even if they are rabbis, at most are

>representatives, agents and/or employees of their own

>individual congregations, not of the entire faith.

 

It may also be the case that the congregational nature is such that it does not present as a ready a target as the RC church, and thus abusers can exist and persist with much less scrutiny than in the RC church.

 

>If a

>congregation's board of directors were to cover up misdeeds of

>its rabbi or of other employees, that's as far as the issue of

>responsibility/liability goes. It doesn't run all the way

>through the hierarchy, all the way up to the Pope, as it does

>in the Catholic Church. (There IS no Jewish Pope, nor any

>equivalent.)

 

Well, it is clear that not even the orthodox Jews share your view on that because the efforts described in both articles show attempts by central authorities such as the Modern Orthodox Rabbinical Council of America to take steps to address the problem. As for the rest, stay tuned. Pretty soon, it will become very clear even to law school drop outs that individual dioces and parishes are financed separately and there is no possibility for financial recovery in Rome. The Sistine Chapel and the Gates of Peter are safe! So much for the deep pocket dreams of certain greedy Beelzebub-inspired trial lawyers!

[trilingual]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

Yawn. . . :o

[woodlawn]

RE: Curious Silence from the Catholic-bashers

 

>Actually, as I have pointed out in other threads, most

>academic surveys conclude that: 1) there is no greater

>incidence of abuse in the RC Church than in the general

>population; and 2) there is no greater incidence of abuse in

>the RC Church than in other denominations. That's what makes

>this a witch hunt.

 

 

According to what I have read the percentage of clergy who engage in sexual abuse is roughly the same in all major denominations, about 5%.

 

What makes the Catholic Church different from the other denominations is the hierarchical and secretive nature of the organization, which has allowed its leaders to conceal the sex crimes of clergy, discourage parishioners from complaining to the authorities and protect the offenders from arrest, all on a very large scale. I don't know of any other denomination in which this has taken place.

 

Perhaps the only other denomination in which there is the potential for this kind of organizational crime is a few of the various sects of Hasidic Jews, which are also hierarchical and secretive. But they are tiny organizations compared to the Catholic Church so the potential for abuse on the same large scale just doesn't exist there.