Three Cheers for the Cardinal Law and theCatholic Bishops!!!

[Chuck50]

I watched it too. I am a Catholic and also a retired navy man after having served 20yrs. Not sure I believe all that they say will happen. oh well. hugs chuck

[Guest fukamarine]

>WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. Roman Catholic bishops agreed Tuesday

>to draft a statement on the threat of war with Iraq that will

>likely oppose an American invasion under the current

>circumstances.

 

Damn right! Why would they favor an invasion of Iraq when they have all those tender buns of their young altar boys to invade, right here at home. Quicker, easier, cheaper.

 

fukamarine

[ad rian]

November 12, 2002

Bishops to Draft Iraq War Statement

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

 

Filed at 4:04 p.m. ET

 

WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. Roman Catholic bishops agreed Tuesday to draft a statement on the threat of war with Iraq that will likely oppose an American invasion under the current circumstances.

 

Boston's Cardinal Bernard Law, who has been under fire all year for his handling of sex abuse claims against priests, proposed issuing the Iraq statement in his role as chairman of the prelates' international affairs committee.

 

Speaking at a meeting of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Law said the statement ``will certainly be in opposition to war in this situation,'' though not against all wars. The conference voted to allow Law's committee to write the statement. It will vote again on whether to endorse it.

 

Iraq has until Friday to respond to a United Nations resolution that demands it allow weapons inspectors back in the country. President Bush has made it clear the United States will attack Iraq if it does not comply.

 

The bishops' president, Wilton Gregory of Belleville, Ill., delivered a letter to Bush in September that raised doubts about a pre-emptive military strike.

 

Gregory told Bush that the bishops' 50-member administrative committee had serious moral questions about ``any pre-emptive, unilateral use of military force to overthrow the government of Iraq.''

 

The bishops supported U.S. action in Afghanistan last year, though they cautioned that worldwide poverty and human rights must be factors in U.S. foreign policy. Law said Afghanistan was ``a different case'' because a pre-emptive strike was not involved.

 

During the prelates' discussion on Tuesday, Archbishop Philip Hannan, the retired leader of the New Orleans Archdiocese and a World War II paratrooper chaplain, urged Law's committee ``to be cautious and to acknowledge at least the difficulties the president is taking care of.''

 

``If we allow some despotic power to rule the earth, or some portion of it, we are in terrible shape for our religion as well as protection of our rights,'' Hannan said.

 

He also noted that ``advances in weaponry'' seen in the Afghanistan conflict show that warfare can be ``precise in its effects.''

 

Bishop Edward Braxton of Lake Charles, La., said he favored an anti-war stand but admitted ``a large number'' of the nation's 65 million Catholics do not understand the church's teaching on criteria for a ``just war'' and have ``a general we-don't-like-Saddam-Hussein'' attitude.

 

If the statement opposes this particular war, rather than wars in general, Bishop Francis DiLorenzo of Honolulu said that could make it tough to give Catholics give moral guidance.

 

``What would we say to Catholics who participate in this war, in terms of conscience?'' he asked. Law said his committee would have to consider that point.

 

------

 

On the Net:

 

U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops: http://www.usccb.org

[ad rian]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bishops!!!

 

>Damn right! Why would they favor an invasion of Iraq when

>they have all those tender buns of their young altar boys to

>invade, right here at home. Quicker, easier, cheaper.

 

True, but don't you prefer fornicating peacenik priests to having to worry about any of them murdering their wives to be with their mistresses like Rabbai Neulander in New Jersey! (Funny, only Court TV seems to cover the story.) It gives a whole new perspective on, "quicker, easier, cheaper."

[BewareofNick]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bishops!!!

 

>>Damn right! Why would they favor an invasion of Iraq when

>>they have all those tender buns of their young altar boys

>to

>>invade, right here at home. Quicker, easier, cheaper.

>

>True, but don't you prefer fornicating peacenik priests to

>having to worry about any of them murdering their wives to be

>with their mistresses like Rabbai Neulander in New Jersey!

>(Funny, only Court TV seems to cover the story.) It gives a

>whole new perspective on, "quicker, easier, cheaper."

 

I actually I prefer posts where you do not get into your pathological hatred of Jews. SEEK SOME COUNSELING!!!!

[ad rian]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bishops!!!

 

>I actually I prefer posts where you do not get into your

>pathological hatred of Jews. SEEK SOME COUNSELING!!!!

 

So in your view, it is hatred to mention the trial of a rabai for slaughtering his wife, but not to talk about abuse of some children by priests? Interesting, revealing, but not at all convincing. I appaud, the Catholic priests for their stance on peace, can you educate us where the rabais stand on that issue? Or is asking that question tantamount to hatred too?

[ad rian]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bishops!!!

 

>I actually I prefer posts where you do not get into your

>pathological hatred of Jews. SEEK SOME COUNSELING!!!!

 

So in your view, it is hatred to mention the trial of a rabai for slaughtering his wife, but not to talk about abuse of some children by priests? Interesting, revealing, but not at all convincing. I appaud, the Catholic priests for their stance on peace, can you educate us where the rabais stand on that issue? Or is asking that question tantamount to hatred too?

[BewareofNick]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bishops!!!

 

I'll try to take this VERY slowly for you:

 

* Any time that anyone brings about the Catholic sex abuse cases, you bring up something having to do with Jews.

 

* You are incapable of discussing this issue or anything to do with the War on Terror without bringing up Israel.

 

* If you wish to discuss this Rabbi who alledgedly muredered his wife, great. Bring it up in a separate thread.

 

* Try discussing the issues without bringing your pathological hatred of all things Jewish into it.

[phage]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bish...

 

Lord knows that ad rian gets my goat sometimes too, but it wasn’t he who got off topic. I’m sure he’s smart enough to have predicted the child molester crack, and once the button was pushed, the rest of us could predict what type of comeback he would have.

 

I understand the point he is making – over and over again – but I certainly don’t agree. Everyone sees things in the light of their own expectations. Just as he sees an anti-Catholic conspiracy around every corner…you are convinced he is an anti-Semite and view everything he says through that filter. It’s human nature but not exactly the foundation for a reasonable discussion.

 

I’m keeping it simple these days and not even trying to justify my views or to be “enlightened”. I am sick to death of the Arab states and their never ending issues, problems, complaints, grudges and savagery. I love Israeli. I love the way they kick ass. I love the way they never give up even in the face of extreme hardship. I love their “never again” attitude.

 

I no longer care what is fair and what is right. I’ve chosen my side.

 

Oh yeah…this was supposed to be about Catholics. I’m completely ambivalent about Catholics. I’m not big on any organized religion, but what’s not to love about gay men in funny hats?

[ad rian]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bishops!!!

 

>I'll try to take this VERY slowly for you:

>

>* Any time that anyone brings about the Catholic sex abuse

>cases, you bring up something having to do with Jews.

 

And that proves hatred because . . . .?

 

>* You are incapable of discussing this issue or anything to

>do with the War on Terror without bringing up Israel.

 

And that proves hatred because ....?

 

>* If you wish to discuss this Rabbi who alledgedly muredered

>his wife, great. Bring it up in a separate thread.

 

Why is it ok to discuss alleged abuse by priests in a thread about the Catholic Bishop's opposition to the war, but not ok to discuss a murdering rabai in the same thread? And assuming you can have a logical resonse, please also show how to do so shows hatred in one case but not the other?

 

>* Try discussing the issues without bringing your

>pathological hatred of all things Jewish into it.

 

Try not to be so sensitive. Neither you nor all rabais are responsible for the (alleged?) actions of a murdering rabai any more than I or all priests are resonsible for the (alleged?actions of a few priests who engage in sexual abuse.

[BewareofNick]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bishops!!!

 

>Try not to be so sensitive. Neither you nor all rabais are

>responsible for the (alleged?) actions of a murdering rabai

>any more than I or all priests are resonsible for the

>(alleged?actions of a few priests who engage in sexual

>abuse.

 

Now I understand. ad rian is a priest!!! It all makes so much sense now.

[BewareofNick]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bish...

 

>I understand the point he is making – over and over again –

>but I certainly don’t agree. Everyone sees things in the

>light of their own expectations. Just as he sees an

>anti-Catholic conspiracy around every corner…you are convinced

>he is an anti-Semite and view everything he says through that

>filter. It’s human nature but not exactly the foundation for

>a reasonable discussion.

 

If he's not an anti-Semite, then why does he always bring up a negative example about Jews? He could just as easily bring up Southern Baptists or Muslims or Buddhists or any other religion, but with him it's all Jews all the time. Of course, with the revelation taht ad rian is a priest, maybe it takes on a whole new meaning.

[phage]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bish...

 

How much fun is it to bait a Southern Baptist? When is the last time anyone got their panties in a twist over Dahli Lama bashing? People can only push your buttons if you show them where they are.

[ad rian]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bishops!!!

 

>>Try not to be so sensitive. Neither you nor all rabais

>are

>>responsible for the (alleged?) actions of a murdering

>rabai

>>any more than I or all priests are resonsible for

>the

>>(alleged?actions of a few priests who engage in sexual

>>abuse.

>

>Now I understand. ad rian is a priest!!! It all makes so

>much sense now.

 

Of course, by the same logic that would make you a rabai too. The interesting question is whether that would also make me an abuser, and you a murderer. Don't ask, don't tell!

[Guest Bitchboy]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bish...

 

Just to stick my well-rounded ass into the discussion I believe Neulander is an asshole who murdered his wife (yes, some Jews are scum as well). I think the Catholic bishops, priests and other clerics have murdered the spirit of thousands of young men (and I wouldn't be surprised finding out there are probably a few "real" bodies buried in the rectory basements). Trying to save face with their plea to stay out of war is not much of a cover-up. I would have expected better from slime like Law.

[Guest Bitchboy]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bishops!!!

 

Dude, if you're going to discuss them at least learn to spell their titles; it's R-A-B-B-I:o

[ad rian]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bish...

 

>Trying to save face with their plea to

>stay out of war is not much of a cover-up. I would have

>expected better from slime like Law.

 

Interesting, but Catholic teaching on "Just War" goes back much further than that. As I have suggested here before, one has to wonder whether the singling out the RC church in connection with abuse, is not part of a campaign against them for their social teachings on questions of great importance like war and peace. Again I ask, where do the rabbais (I am waiting for the spellcheck option to be added to my browser, and perhaps to learn to type with more than one finger) stand on the issue of war with Iraq? You might find this to be on interest:

 

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' statement on Iraq.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Nov. 14, 2002 | As we Catholic Bishops meet here in Washington, our nation, Iraq and the world face grave choices about war and peace, about pursuing justice and security. These are not only military and political choices, but also moral ones because they involve matters of life and death. Traditional Christian teaching offers ethical principles and moral criteria that should guide these critical choices.

 

Two months ago, Bishop Wilton Gregory, President of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, wrote President George Bush to welcome efforts to focus the world's attention on Iraq's refusal to comply with several United Nations resolutions over the past eleven years, and its pursuit of weapons of mass destruction. This letter, which was authorized by the U.S. Bishops' Administrative Committee, raised serious questions about the moral legitimacy of any preemptive, unilateral use of military force to overthrow the government of Iraq. As a body, we make our own the questions and concerns raised in Bishop Gregory's letter, taking into account developments since then, especially the unanimous action of the U.N. Security Council on November 8th.

 

We have no illusions about the behavior or intentions of the Iraqi government. The Iraqi leadership must cease its internal repression, end its threats to its neighbors, stop any support for terrorism, abandon its efforts to develop weapons of mass destruction, and destroy all such existing weapons. We welcome the fact that the United States has worked to gain new action by the UN Security Council to ensure that Iraq meets its obligation to disarm. We join others in urging Iraq to comply fully with this latest Security Council resolution. We fervently pray that all involved will act to ensure that this UN action will not simply be a prelude to war but a way to avoid it.

 

While we cannot predict what will happen in the coming weeks, we wish to reiterate questions of ends and means that may still have to be addressed. We offer not definitive conclusions, but rather our serious concerns and questions in the hope of helping all of us to reach sound moral judgments. People of good will may differ on how to apply just war norms in particular cases, especially when events are moving rapidly and the facts are not altogether clear. Based on the facts that are known to us, we continue to find it difficult to justify the resort to war against Iraq, lacking clear and adequate evidence of an imminent attack of a grave nature. With the Holy See and bishops from the Middle East and around the world, we fear that resort to war, under present circumstances and in light of current public information, would not meet the strict conditions in Catholic teaching for overriding the strong presumption against the use of military force.*

 

Just cause. The Catechism of the Catholic Church limits just cause to cases in which "the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations [is] lasting, grave and certain." (#2309) We are deeply concerned about recent proposals to expand dramatically traditional limits on just cause to include preventive uses of military force to overthrow threatening regimes or to deal with weapons of mass destruction. Consistent with the proscriptions contained in international law, a distinction should be made between efforts to change unacceptable behavior of a government and efforts to end that government's existence.

 

Legitimate authority. In our judgment, decisions concerning possible war in Iraq require compliance with U.S. constitutional imperatives, broad consensus within our nation, and some form of international sanction. That is why the action by Congress and the UN Security Council are important. As the Holy See has indicated, if recourse to force were deemed necessary, this should take place within the framework of the United Nations after considering the consequences for Iraqi civilians, and regional and global stability. (Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran, Vatican Secretary for Relations with States, 9/10/02).

 

Probability of success and proportionality. The use of force must have "serious prospects for success" and "must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated" (Catechism, #2309). We recognize that not taking military action could have its own negative consequences. We are concerned, however, that war against Iraq could have unpredictable consequences not only for Iraq but for peace and stability elsewhere in the Middle East. The use of force might provoke the very kind of attacks that it is intended to prevent, could impose terrible new burdens on an already long-suffering civilian population, and could lead to wider conflict and instability in the region. War against Iraq could also detract from the responsibility to help build a just and stable order in Afghanistan and could undermine broader efforts to stop terrorism.

 

Norms governing the conduct of war. The justice of a cause does not lessen the moral responsibility to comply with the norms of civilian immunity and proportionality. While we recognize improved capability and serious efforts to avoid directly targeting civilians in war, the use of military force in Iraq could bring incalculable costs for a civilian population that has suffered so much from war, repression, and a debilitating embargo. In assessing whether "collateral damage" is proportionate, the lives of Iraqi men, women and children should be valued as we would the lives of members of our own family and citizens of our own country.

 

Our assessment of these questions leads us to urge that our nation and the world continue to pursue actively alternatives to war in the Middle East. It is vital that our nation persist in the very frustrating and difficult challenges of maintaining broad international support for constructive, effective and legitimate ways to contain and deter aggressive Iraqi actions and threats. We support effective enforcement of the military embargo and maintenance of political sanctions. We reiterate our call for much more carefully-focused economic sanctions which do not threaten the lives of innocent Iraqi civilians. Addressing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction must be matched by broader and stronger non-proliferation measures. Such efforts, grounded in the principle of mutual restraint, should include, among other things, greater support for programs to safeguard and eliminate weapons of mass destruction in all nations, stricter controls on the export of missiles and weapons technology, improved enforcement of the biological and chemical weapons conventions, and fulfillment of U.S. commitments to pursue good faith negotiations on nuclear disarmament under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

 

There are no easy answers. Ultimately, our elected leaders are responsible for decisions about national security, but we hope that our moral concerns and questions will be considered seriously by our leaders and all citizens. We invite others, particularly Catholic lay people -- who have the principal responsibility to transform the social order in light of the Gospel -- to continue to discern how best to live out their vocation to be "witnesses and agents of peace and justice" (Catechism, #2442). As Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers" (Mt. 5).

 

We pray for all those most likely to be affected by this potential conflict, especially the suffering people of Iraq and the men and women who serve in our armed forces. We support those who risk their lives in the service of our nation. We also support those who seek to exercise their right to conscientious objection and selective conscientious objection, as we have stated in the past.

 

We pray for President Bush and other world leaders that they will find the will and the ways to step back from the brink of war with Iraq and work for a peace that is just and enduring. We urge them to work with others to fashion an effective global response to Iraq's threats that recognizes legitimate self defense and conforms to traditional moral limits on the use of military force.

___________________

 

*"Just war teaching has evolved ... as an effort to prevent war; only if war cannot be rationally avoided, does the teaching then seek to restrict and reduce its horrors. It does this by establishing a set of rigorous conditions which must be met if the decision to go to war is to be mostly permissible. Such a decision, especially today, requires extraordinarily strong reasons for overriding the presumption in favor of peace and against war. This is one significant reason why valid just-war teaching makes provision for conscientious dissent." The Challenge of Peace: God's Promise and Our Response (1983), #83."

[Guest Bitchboy]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bish...

 

Timing is everything! A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down. Believe me, you wouldn't be getting such a pronouncement if this other crap weren't being uncovered at an alarming rate.

[ad rian]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bish...

 

>Timing is everything!

 

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in paragraphs 2302-2317, authoritatively teaches what constitutes the just defense of a nation against an aggressor. Called the Just War Doctrine, it was first enunciated by St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD). Over the centuries it was taught by Doctors of the Church, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, and formally embraced by the Magisterium, which has also adapted it to the situation of modern warfare. The following explanation of Just War Doctrine follows the schema given in the Catechism."

 

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm

[Guest Bitchboy]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bish...

 

And the doofus pulled it out and used it at just the same time he was apologizing for his continued use of priests who had molested children. How conveeeeeenient!

[ad rian]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bish...

 

>And the doofus pulled it out and used it at just the same

>time he was apologizing for his continued use of priests who

>had molested children. How conveeeeeenient!

 

Are you suggesting that George, Ariel, Tony and Saddam all decided to play there little war games upon the request of the Catholic Bishops? Now if you are right, that would take chutzpah!

[BewareofNick]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bishops!!!

 

>>>Try not to be so sensitive. Neither you nor all rabais

>>are

>>>responsible for the (alleged?) actions of a murdering

>>rabai

>>>any more than I or all priests are resonsible for

>>the

>>>(alleged?actions of a few priests who engage in sexual

>>>abuse.

>>

>>Now I understand. ad rian is a priest!!! It all makes so

>>much sense now.

>

>Of course, by the same logic that would make you a rabai too.

> The interesting question is whether that would also make me

>an abuser, and you a murderer. Don't ask, don't tell!

>

 

Nope. You're the one who chose the wording. I think you may have inadvertently slipped and revealed something about yourself, but that's okay. Either you're a Catholic priest or an anti-Semite. Course, I guess you could be both too.

[Guest Bitchboy]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bish...

 

>

>Are you suggesting that George, Ariel, Tony and Saddam all

>decided to play there little war games upon the request of the

>Catholic Bishops? Now if you are right, that would take

>chutzpah!

>

 

Of course not. He doesn't wield that power. But I never said he was stupid (just evil and selfish). He knew what to emphasize to appease the multitudes. Sort of like that fish and loaves scenario.

[Guest Bitchboy]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bishops!!!

 

Either you're a Catholic priest or

>an anti-Semite. Course, I guess you could be both too.

 

Hey, it works for the pope!

:-(

[ad rian]

RE: Three Cheers for Cardinal Law and the Catholic Bish...

 

>Of course not. He doesn't wield that power. But I never said

>he was stupid (just evil and selfish). He knew what to

>emphasize to appease the multitudes. Sort of like that fish

>and loaves scenario.

 

 

What a stretch. The RC Church implements its Just War doctrine that is almost as old as the Church itself and you see a conspiracy. Wow! For my part, I welcome the return of the Church to public discourse on war and peace. I sure hope some other leaders of(unmentionable?) faiths stop killing their wives and start speaking out for peace. Isn't anybody going to answer my question about where the good rabbais stand on the war?