Chutzpah

[ad rian]

Should Mayor bloomberg go to Columbus day parades with Soprano Stars? Would he go to the Salute to Israel Day Pardes woth PLO Members? Sholuld he go to the Gay Pride Day parade with Dr. Laura?

[Guest Not2Kinky4me]

I think he should do anything he darn well pleases including flying a sortie over Iraq.

 

Dont you ?

[+ Lucky]

For me, it's who cares?!

[BewareofNick]

Note that he manages to work in yet another reference to Israel too!

 

-Truth Justice and the American Way-

[ad rian]

>Note that he manages to work in yet another reference to

>Israel too!

 

I see, Israel should never be discussed? We can talk about Italians, Blacks, Asians, Muslims, Arabs, gays, lesbians, transgenders, but never jews or Israelis (words that are distinct in my usage)? No wonder that state gets a way with murder. Why not answer the questions posed?

[Guest Not2Kinky4me]

ad rian, I dont think anyone here means "don't discuss Israel". I believe some have the opinion its best to limit, or contain the discussion, or debate, to ONE topic that is not extremely complex.

 

This is a message board, not a real-time telephone conversation or debate forum. Israel is an extremely complex subject matter (understatement) and often requires or causes an individual to drill down into its complex historical timeline. Such diversion creates too many spin-off debates while the original topic becomes forgotten or abandoned without any type of closure.

 

It happens to the best.

[Traveller]

I think the Mayor and Ad should get a three-fer and have the Sopranos parade with uzis and butt plugs up their asses.

 

Later.

 

PS. Is Ramallah a parking lot yet? I get too nervous when the BF is home.

[ad rian]

>ad rian, I dont think anyone here means "don't discuss

>Israel". I believe some have the opinion its best to limit,

>or contain the discussion, or debate, to ONE topic that is

>not extremely complex.

>

>This is a message board, not a real-time telephone

>conversation or debate forum. Israel is an extremely complex

>subject matter (understatement) and often requires or causes

>an individual to drill down into its complex historical

>timeline. Such diversion creates too many spin-off debates

>while the original topic becomes forgotten or abandoned

>without any type of closure.

>

>It happens to the best.

 

I appreciate that, but what makes Israel more complicated than any other contentious issue, and how on earth can anyone pretend that the Iraq and Israel issues are not linked?

 

Don't you really mean that the issue is more controversial and sensitive. Having travelled extensively and lived all over the world, I have to tell you that I do not regard it as very healthy to carve off one issue off the table and say that it cannot be debated because it is too "complex".

 

At any rate, this thread was intended to show just how complicated issues of race, religion or ethnicity can be. We should all pause to think about how our conduct or words might offend. I don't care who Bloomberg takes to the parade, but I do think it is worth asking the other questions I posed above also.

 

That said, I think we would be better off if we kept these political questions off the Board altogether.

[+ Lucky]

"I think we would be better off if we kept these political questions off the Board altogether."

 

Who started it?

;-)

[ad rian]

> "I think we would be better off if we kept these political

>questions off the Board altogether."

>

>Who started it?

 

I think it was Bewareofnick.

[Guest Bitchboy]

I think heading the thread "chutzpah" says something very telling to begin with. However, that said, what the hell has two Soprano actors going to the Columbus Day parade with the semi-mayor of NYC got to do with marching in a Salute Israel parade. I seriously doubt any PLO leaders would be attending such a function, unless they had a bomb strapped to themselves. But then that would be their kids, wouldn't it - certainly not the leaders.

[ad rian]

>I think heading the thread "chutzpah" says something very

>telling to begin with.

 

Well if I had called it "Hypocricy" somebody would have called me an antisemite, but maybe just maybe if I refer to a trait that Jews discuss among themselves, and for which they have their own word to describe, we can have a rational debate without name-calling and hysteria! Seriously, you see no "inconsistency" or insensitivity in the Mayor's actions?

[Guest Bitchboy]

None whatsoever. The actors are Italians and A-C-T-O-R-S. The PLO has sworn to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. To imply they are similar is chutzpah.

[ad rian]

>None whatsoever. The actors are Italians and A-C-T-O-R-S.

>The PLO has sworn to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

>To imply they are similar is chutzpah.

 

Hmmh, I wonder whether national Italian American organizations would agree with you. Your reaction here is quite revealing.

[Guest Bitchboy]

Whether national Italian organizations agree with me or not is of no consequence or improtance to me whatsoever. What I am, however, is a very pro-Israel Christian (well, at least born christian). The implication that the mafia (and let's be "straight" here - that's what you're implying) and the PLO have any similiarities, other than being filled with idiots, is bile producing. The mafia (of which neither actor is a supporter) hasn't made it it's credo to wipe out an entire race of people.

[ad rian]

>Whether national Italian organizations agree with me or not

>is of no consequence or improtance to me whatsoever. What I

>am, however, is a very pro-Israel Christian (well, at least

>born christian). The implication that the mafia (and let's

>be "straight" here - that's what you're implying) and the

>PLO have any similiarities, other than being filled with

>idiots, is bile producing. The mafia (of which neither

>actor is a supporter) hasn't made it it's credo to wipe out

>an entire race of people.

 

Nor has the PLO (Do you perhaps mean Fatah? And of cousrse, wanting to end the occupation of your homeland does not mean anything about an ethnic group, although for the sake of argument, I concede, it might have something to do with a nationality, Israelis.), but I suppose if I believed that then I could understand your frothing at the mouth here.

[ad rian]

>Nor has the PLO (Do you perhaps mean Fatah? And of cousrse,

>wanting to end the occupation of your homeland does not mean

>anything about an ethnic group, although for the sake of

>argument, I concede, it might have something to do with a

>nationality, Israelis.), but I suppose if I believed that

>then I could understand your frothing at the mouth here.

 

Sorry, I meant to say Hamas not Fatah above, but I was too quick to hit the button.

[Guest Not2Kinky4me]

ad rian, come on, Israel has a very long historical [and some might assert controversial] timeline of events which are still being fought over today, and in my opinion, there will be conflict there for a very long time to come.

 

By the way, what is Chutzpah, bread ?

 

Pass me a beer, Im celebrating - the markets bounced up 2 consecutive days!

 

Hmmm, Just another 65% more to go and I'll recover this years losses!:7

[Guest jeffOH]

RE: Columbus Day!

 

The Native American groups here usually have a protest downtown at one of our city's(Columbus)tourist sites, an exact replica of the Santa Maria moored in the Scioto River. Being part Native American my sympathies lie with them. He didn't exactly do much for the mostly peaceful people who were already living here.

 

JEFF

jeff4men@hotmail.com

[Guest alanm]

RE: Columbus Day!

 

I agree the Native American have more to be upset about than anyone else. The PLO and Isreal should never have been compared to ACTORS on a popular cable TV show and Italian Americans groups that dislike "The Sopranos." No one with any sense would characterize all Italians as members of the Mafia. In fact, I once worked for the sister of a very famous crime boss; she was one of the nicest people I have ever met!

[Guest RushNY]

RE: Columbus Day!

 

Jeez what an over-reaction......i'm sure some people just jump up and down and complain just for something to do ..as somebody who is gonna march in the parade being a member of the Columbia Association i dont give a f**k if the entire cast of the Sopranos marched ..the simple thing being ITS A TV SHOW -ITS FICTION i suppose the same people get pissed everytime The Godfather gets shown on TV or Mario Puzo writes a new book.GET OVER IT

[ad rian]

RE: Columbus Day!

 

>I agree the Native American have more to be upset about than

>anyone else. The PLO and Isreal should never have been

>compared to ACTORS on a popular cable TV show and Italian

>Americans groups that dislike "The Sopranos." No one with

>any sense would characterize all Italians as members of the

>Mafia. In fact, I once worked for the sister of a very

>famous crime boss; she was one of the nicest people I have

>ever met!

 

The point here is that it is always easier to react to what does not affect you directly. So the Europeans cry about Blacks on death row while ignoring their Holocaust past. (White) Americans increasingly find it easy to cry about the Holocaust, defend Isarel while ignoring their past history of slavery and Jim Crow. I think a Holocaust museum in Germany has more meaning and a slavery memorial in Washington has more meaning than a Holocaust museum in Washington or a slavery memorial in Germany. Societies that contend with their own demons are less likely to repeat them than those that revel in the demons of others while ignoring those of their own.

 

That said, the real struggle is to to try to find ampathy for others. It is fascinating that you would so readilly defend a slight to one group while defending so assiduously another from any perceived slight. Well, if you can appreciate that not all Italians are Mafia types, perhaps you can concede that not all Palestinians are evil, some just want their land back, and not all Israelis are noble, some just want to occupy someone else's land.

 

Now, does anyone want to take on the Dr. Laura question above?

[Guest fukamarine]

>Should Mayor bloomberg go to Columbus day parades with

>Soprano Stars? Would he go to the Salute to Israel Day

>Pardes woth PLO Members? Sholuld he go to the Gay Pride Day

>parade with Dr. Laura?

 

You can't compare the two. Dr. L. hates gays. The Soprano's in this context represnt the Italian Mafia. They (the Mob) don't hate Italians. You comparison just doesn't compute

 

fukamarine

[ad rian]

>You can't compare the two. Dr. L. hates gays. The Soprano's

>in this context represnt the Italian Mafia. They (the Mob)

>don't hate Italians. You comparison just doesn't compute

 

Not so fast. The issue is whether Bloomberg would go to a parade of any other group along side invited guests that some or all memmbers of that group find offensive or who they believe have unfairly denigrated them or prpomoted negative stereotypes of them. I think the questions posed and the predictable responses here compute very well as expected, hence the title that I chose.

[phage]

RE: Columbus Day!

 

Well, if you can

>appreciate that not all Italians are Mafia types, perhaps

>you can concede that not all Palestinians are evil, some

>just want their land back, and not all Israelis are noble,

>some just want to occupy someone else's land.

 

You use history in a very interesting and seemingly convenient way. You try to excuse, or at least explain, the invasion of Kuwait based on some historical claim that Iraq has to that area. You also make references to “homeland” and “occupation” to excuse Palestinian actions.

 

I ask this in all sincerity, since I make no claim to being a history buff. How far back does this regard for history extend? Is there some kind of statute of limitations on historical claims? Why doesn’t the even more ancient claim that the Jews have over Israel trump the more recent claim of the Palestinians?

 

Why do you always stop your historical point of references at a time where it might excuse present day behavior?