Closet Life- An Invitation to a Discussion

[Guest happyday]

I am 56, gay, closeted, grew up in the 50's and 60's in rural America, got married, had child, and never realized the fact it was ok to be gay until I was in my late 30's. Have recently separated and am making an attempt to find myself and gradually open the closet door. For financial reasons I have to be very careful. Personally it is stressful beyond words. I could go on and on but don't want to bore you with my personal closeted in America story.

I do have a thought or two to share with you. In this life we all dealt a hand of cards and no two people are dealt the exact same hand. If I never totally get out of the closet it will not be because I didn't have the desire or courage. It will be because I just never got the right cards. I am not making excuses here and I have not given up but rather pointing out that regardless of our similarities we are all unique with a multitude of differing influencing factors. For those of you who have "come out" I am forever envious and I rejoice in your choice to be openly gay and I rejoice in your choice to be free. hd

[Guest CraigSF39]

>It's been a few years now, but I used to be a closet case.

 

congradulashons on coming out!!!!! Out = LIFE !!!!

 

>What I hated about it was having to hide who I really was

>from friends and family.

 

that is so trajik, when people lye to there friends and family.

 

>There are many posters on this board who are still in the

>closet, or who call themselves "bi."

 

you know what they say - there are more flying purpel one eyed unicorns who talk then there are really "bi" males.

[Guest allansmith63]

Lorenzo - to offer you my story as support.

 

I came out to my parents early last October. I was petrified to tell them - church background, my father used all the wrong words - but I felt I had to tell them, and come what may.

 

The long and short of it - my dad - whom I was more concerned about and wanted most to accept me as I am - told me that it was devastating news to him, but I would always be his son, and he loved me.

 

The next time I saw my parents, I went to their place at their request, to talk about my life. One of the amazing things my father said to me was that he wished I had told him I was gay when I was a teenager, NOT so that he could change me, but so that he would have come to understand me better and to be able to provide the support that he knew now I needed then. A little later in the conversation, he looked at me, and said "Allan, you must have been so incredibly lonely." My father - a homophobic (I thought) who always spoke disparagingly about "faggots"), church-attending, narrow-minded (I thought) European immigrant - with those few words, completely understands my journey.

 

Your parents may surprise you, as mine so thoroughly did. Basically, Lorenzo, be proud of who you are, and your parents have two choices - to accept you as you are, or to reject you. Trust me that living openly is immeasurably better than living a lie.

 

My 3.15 cents (CDN) worth (or 2 cents US)

 

Allan

[Guest tmbg]

I have been in the closet my entire life. There are a small group of people who do know that I'm gay, so small I can count them on one hand. Three friends and my Doctor. The friends are also gay so that was pretty easy letting them know. I told my doctor so he could be alert to potential medical problems a gay man might face.

 

My parents I feel they know yet it isn't spoken about. They have never displayed any negative feelings about gay people. I simply have made the choice not to tell them.

 

At work I could not let any person know I was gay. It would have a direct impact on me.

 

My friends, aside from the 3 who are gay, have no clue. I simply do not want to tell them as I feel they'll have a hard time dealing with it. For me there friendship is more important than making a declaration about my sexual preferences.

 

I do acknowledge that I realy dislike living in the closet. I'm always hiding, lieing, pretending but I seem to have become use to this.

 

Cheers! Ritchie

[HooBoy]

Allen - Thank you for sharing that part of your life.

 

Parents are so strange. They really love their offspring no matter what.

 

Gay people often brush off lovers like dandruff. But parents have roots that cling. When you go over your memory "tape", how do you see it playing out if you had told your parents when you were a teen?

[HooBoy]

Hey Ritchie,

 

Do people ask your parents or your friends what they do in bed?

 

I imagine they don't.

 

I think the same applies with you.

 

It is no one's biz what you do in the sack.

 

Now if you want to have a secret relationship, that is your business. You are not deceiving anyone unless you want them in your life. If they are peripheral, then who gives a shit what they think?

 

You certainly should not as long as you are happy.

[+ Lucky]

This thread is exceeding my expectations and making me marvel at some of the wonderful thinking here. I feel like I am getting to know people better.

TY, your thread was so well-worth reading through. It put a tear in my eye, and I thank you for placing it.

[Guest Lorenzo]

Bastian,

I may take you up on that offer one of these days!

 

Tampa Yankee,

So much of what you wrote resonates with me, even if our life experiences have been different. The part about feeling like you went to seed: I can relate. I've put on so much weight in the last few years and am starting to work on that now. Luckily I just got a new job that includes a gym and exercise center on the premises so that will certainly be a major incentive. Also when you mention attractions to women. I'm not unattracted to women, and there a few I find very sexy. But for the most part they just don't float my boat in a sexual way. Whenever I've had sex with a woman it was always a chore to stay interested. Of course I thought that being with a female was "normal" and "Natural"(god, I hate that word anymore!) so I always tried to be "normal". But I've had stronger attractions to males since at least high school and I'm at the point where I just want to be with guys all of the time, sexually and otherwise. I just need to take the next few steps so I can be who I believe I was meant to be.

Lorenzo

 

 

 

 

 

>WARNING: This is a long thread not intended for those with

>tolerances only for short reads. And if a paragraph or two

>wander a little off point that is the price for the whole.

>So for those put off by this type of post, please skip it

>and move on. :-)

>

>Lucky posed the question:

>

>>There are many posters on this board who are still in the

>>closet, or who call themselves "bi."

>>What I wonder is this: What is it like today to have gay

>>desires, yet be unable to express them publicly? To have a

>>wife/girlfriend/children who have no idea...

>>Do you come to terms with this existence? Does it eat you on

>>the inside? Do you constantly worry that you will be

>>discovered?

>

>And BenDover reflects:

>

>>No matter how many positive images on TV or in the news, no

>>matter how much information is out there, no matter how many

>>laws and restrictive social norms are set aside, coming out

>>can still be a frightening, lonely and almost always

>>frequently painful experience. I hope it is easier these

>>days, but it must still be tough.

>

>While I am out now, it has only been year. And while it was

>not an easy thing to do it was much easier than living with

>the self-imposed burden for most of my life.

>

>A little over a year ago I had occasion to reflect on my

>journey in a thread on another website. I reproduce it

>below for those few that may find some similarity with their

>circumstance. (I respond to questions posed by others

>denoted in brackets. ) After I wrote that piece I decided

>to come out to my family Christmas dinner a year ago. In

>my case it went very well, but the time had come for me to

>do it no matter how it turned out. I have moved on from

>where I was a year ago but I'm still pretty much that guy.

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>More on xxxxx's deceptively simple question...

>

><Given that many of us are secretive about our sexuality,

>how do some of you guys

>counter what, to me, can be an overwhelming sense of

>loneliness - of being there,

>but not really being a part of things going on around you?>

>

>Counter loneliness?, there is no countering, there is

>enduring and adapting to

>it, but for me this may be easier than for most, because it

>has been a way of

>life since I started school at age 5. I was very shy as a

>child and quite a bit

>younger than my classmates due to the peculiarities of the

>state law regarding

>birth dates for starting school attendance and my birthday.

>Socially I was less

>mature than the others and it showed in my interaction or

>more precisely lack of

>interaction. I eventually grew to accommodate the

>personality trait but never

>really grew out of it. Today, I'm still slow to warm up to

>unfamiliar people and

>only take them in small doses, one or two at a time, maybe a

>few more. I have no

>tolerance for large groups of strangers, or even

>acquaintances. I never really

>enjoyed the art of superficial social interaction and don't

>care to, even today --

>with one exception, public flirtations or good natured

>teasing. It must be

>public to avoid misunderstandings and complications... and

>of course I wouldn't

>undertake this with a complete stranger anyway, because I

>need to anticipate

>their comfort level with this sort of play.

>

><of being there, but not really being a part of things going

>on around you?>

>

>This is an uncanny accurate description of my feeling in

>large groups... Again, a

>way of life all through public school until college, when I

>began to exercise

>more control over my day to day life and I could pick and

>choose the environment

>within which I placed myself. Of course the anonymity of the

>internet provides

>a variation on our basic personality just as the armor in

>our auto gives us when

>we venture out on the roads...

>

>And I haven't even brought up the subject of sexuality

>yet...

>

>As a young man I learned that I was supposed to be

>interested in girls and I was,

>depending on the girl-- but I always found it difficult to

>interact with them on

>any level but as friends, not that I didn't want to. I also

>discovered that I

>developed very strong emotional attachments to boys -- only

>to a few but the

>attachments were deep. And of course we interacted

>intimately in a nonsexual way

>as best friends do. The sexual dimension didn't rear its

>head until my senior

>year in high school but I ignored it (it was tough and I

>almost couldn't manage

>it). I didn't think my friend could accept it -- I still

>think today that it was

>the correct assessment. A similar situation happened while

>an undergraduate,

>again avoided -- I suspect he wanted it too but I don't

>think he would have been

>comfortable with it and I'm not sure I would have been

>either. Today we are still

>good friends, one of my closest though we don't see each

>other often -- both of

>us married and divorced, both with children.

>

>Then there is the 23 years of marriage, all of the time

>taking furtive glances at

>good looking guys in the supermarket, pumping gas, or just

>walking on the street

>while trying to avoid being discovered by my wife or kids.

>How did I deal with it?

>I just did -- there was no easy way to get past it or over

>it and I wasn't prepared

>to give up my children or be unfaithful. Someone to talk to

>-- I think not!! One endures.

>

>Then after 23 years my wife asks for a divorce (I had

>seriously considered for a

>few years asking for one myself but always found a reason

>not to). There was

>emotional trauma and very mixed feelings but it didn't take

>too long to get past

>any hurt or negative feelings.

>

>Nevertheless, I felt that life was pretty much over at that

>point. I was happy

>the marriage was over, and I didn't want another marriage. I

>felt I was pretty

>much past my prime, in fact, gone to seed wouldn't be an

>overstatement. I

>certainly had no desire to engage in another relationship

>and thought no one, who

>was not more needy than I, would be interested in me. So I

>looked forward to just

>playing my hand out and looking forward to grandchildren

>which seemed doubtful

>(and still do).

>

>Then I discovered an interesting world on the internet.

>Although I had been on

>the internet for several years I hadn't investigated the

>'gay' side at all --

>wouldn't have known where to begin. Then I came across some

>escort sites which

>really piqued my interest -- maybe what I couldn't attract

>on my own

>could be purchased! I never would have had the balls to do

>it before but with my

>newfound independence and the feeling that time is running

>out on you and also an

>undertaking of a personal renovation program (I was very

>overweight and

>recovering from a double knee injury which happened the

>previous winter) I

>decided it was now or never -- and never was forever.

>

>Well, 75 pounds later and a dozen men or so I have come to

>the realization that,

>while the occasional female will still turn my head, men

>make it spin like a top.

>And while I may not be a young man anymore, I'm not that old

>and I'm far from

>dead, in fact more alive that I've been in 25 years. But

>I've substituted one set

>of problems for another. I've only recently dropped the

>fiction that I am Bi and

>accept that I am gay and that it was probably responsible

>for the failure of my

>marriage. Not only have I admitted it to another but more

>surprsingly I have

>admitted it to myself (the hard part). I really accepted

>this fact openly while in the company

>of another man, a pretty exceptional man in some ways, for

>an extended overnight

>experience. This in contrast to previous trysts with others

>(one or two also

>exceptional) of at most a couple of hours, which might be

>likened to the backseat

>of a car at the the drive-in when I was a kid. Well, not

>exactly, but you get an

>idea of the contrast I'm trying to evoke. The extended

>engagement really brought

>into focus just how right for me that this kind of

>relationship seemed. The

>first time I kissed another man I felt so comfortable that

>it seemed I had done

>it many times before -- it just seemed so right. Then when I

>became more

>physically involved it seemed the same although the emphasis

>was on the physical

>with whatever passion and tenderness that limited time and

>my partner would

>allow. But the overnite offered a new dimension to the

>experience -- to spend

>time, intimate in some ways, with another over dinner,

>theatre and just

>walking, just talking. The experience became overwhelming

>with respect the

>realization of what I was learning about myself -- so this

>is what it is really

>about...

>

>I am bursting at the seems to 'come out' for the shear

>freedom to say and do what

>I feel like -- I have come close to letting it slip out but

>so far I've managed

>to pull back at the last minute. And i'm sure once they do

>know they will reflect

>on the several tell-tale signs I put out there as subtly as

>I could. How do you

>tell your kids, mother, and x-wife, not to mention a brother

>and his family. It

>will be as difficult an adjustment for them as it has been

>for me to grapple

>with. But the time is not ripe, my employer would not be

>very understanding I am

>sure. Only two more years to reach a milestone that permits

>me to carry away the

>last important benefit I haven't already sewed up!! So, I

>wait...

>

><What I really miss is what yyyyyy mentions in his comments

>.. "the availability

>of someone you can trust with your ideas, dreams, and daily

>thoughts".. I have no

>one I can speak face to face with about these things - or my

>conflicts, my

>emotions, my guts! >

>

>Ditto in spades!!! The overnight certainly brought that

>need into sharpe focus

>for me. But I too do not seek another committed

>relationship at this time, the

>last one lasted 23 years and was more than enough for now.

>I have missed a lot

>in the last 25 years that I need to make up for as best one

>can after the horse

>is out of the barn. It's easy to postulate an ideal open

>relationship but these

>are almost never realized. It requires two secure

>individuals to begin with and

>that is just for starters. Then the potential temptations

>for another committment

>to overcome... No, no committed relationship for now -- I'm

>smart enough to never

>say never but certainly not now. Of course, that could all

>change when I see a

>guy with that certain glint in his eye -- never say never.

>We are such a fickle

>species.

>

>Just a few idle thoughts on xxxxx's simple question and

>other contributed

>thoughts from yyyyyy and zzzzzzz. These issues have been

>just under the surface of

>late and maybe boiliing over the top a little too.

[Guest soccerstud]

I looked at this topic briefly yesterday, but didn't have time to respond. (GREAT topic, Lucky.)

 

This topic leads me to think about what I've long wanted to pose on the Msg. Ctr: Why can't the "gay community" (I won't get into "that" discussion) be more tolerant of its different gay members? If any group should be accepting of different "lifestyles," it should be us. However, all too often (including in my case--see below),I find other gay men looking down on those who choose not to be out, who are only partially out, who consider themselves "bi," or whatever. I recently encountered a group of other gay men who totally refused to even accept that I am gay because of my particular circumstances that are so different from their norm. (Interestingly enough, I find that, as a rule --am I violating my own standard against generalities?--, escorts are far more accepting of differences (again, different topic).)

 

 

In my case, I led a straight life for 40 years, however always knowing I was gay but simply never acknowledging it to myself or others (the shrinks will label that "compartmentalization"). Two years ago I decided to deal with all this (knowing that if I didn't do it now, I never would and would always regret it).I had gay sex and, if there had ever been any question in my mind, the wonders of gay sex for me answered it all. Six months later I came out to my wife. We have an incredible relationship, she was totally understanding, and we are determined to stay married and make it work (despite all the odds). Not because I want to maintain a straight life; no, simply because our relationship is the most important thing in my life, and I firmly believe that sex (as important as it is) is only a part of a relationship; depending on the couple (gay or straight), it can be the most important part or it can just be one of many components. A month ago (per my post in the Msg Ctr)I came out to my kids. Very emotional; very surpirising to them; but very very supportive and accepting. I am not out elsewhere, only because of my wife's trepidations, which I accept as one of the many compromises we have made (as all other couples do every day of the year) to each other on all sorts of non-gay and gay matters. For me, it all works. For others, obviously it may not.

 

I do not regret the subconscious decisions I made years ago. I now feel so much more honest and open with those who mean the most to me. But had I not lived a straight life for those years, I wouldn't have my family whose support and love have been so crucial for years and, most recently, in the coming out process. Do I still feel hypocritical? Yes. But I can live with it. Am I content? Absolutely. I try to expand my gay life as much as possible. Life requires compromises; this is just one of many.

 

All of us are different. Whatever works for you. The important thing is to take the time to know what you want and need and, then, not to compromise in achieving it.

[phage]

>If any group should be accepting of

>different "lifestyles," it should be us. However, all too

>often (including in my case--see below),I find other gay men

>looking down on those who choose not to be out, who are only

>partially out, who consider themselves "bi," or whatever. I

>recently encountered a group of other gay men who totally

>refused to even accept that I am gay because of my

>particular circumstances that are so different from their

>norm.

 

We’ve had a lot of recent discussion about expecting anything from gay men as a group. You’re going to find men who will accept your situation and men who won’t.

 

Your situation is pretty unique. How often do you run into a guy who is half out and has a wife at home? An ex-wife…yes…but a current wife? You are even more rare than the guys who have wives that they are fooling around on. At least it is my belief that married guys are fairly rare in the out gay community. We probably have more here at this site just because of its nature.

 

We all know that life is all about choices and no one has the right to have it all. You have chosen to retain this primary relationship with a woman who means the world to you. You have kids and no doubt receive a great deal of joy from them. Those are both huge things that enrich your life and more power to you.

 

You just shouldn’t be surprised when gay men don’t know how to react to your situation. For me personally, it would be a little too complicated. I won’t even date a bisexual guy who is trying to have it all because I just won’t compete with a woman. I honestly don’t know if it is insecurity or some kind of bitchy pride, but I just won’t have it.

 

You’re just going to have to expect some disbelief and make some extra effort to help guys understand. I’m sure there will be questions about your boundaries and the rules, etc. What are you going to do if you fall in love with some guy?

 

>Do I still feel hypocritical? Yes.

 

I don’t see any reason why you should feel hypocritical. Yes, it took some time, but you are being honest with all the important people in your life. Now, if you were running around gay bars and not telling anyone about your wife…that would be hypocritical.

 

You’ve chosen a very interesting path and I hope it works out well for you.

[Guest soccerstud]

Thanks, Phage. I appreciate the understanding. I know my situation is so unique and hard to understand. It's just frustrating when other gay guys won't even try to look behind the intial barrier and get to know me--not as a boyfriend (because I certainly understand your decision not to date bi guys) but just as a friend. I try to work at it and try hard to understand where others are coming from.

The hypocrisy I still feel? It's to the others in my life to whom I haven't yet come out. But, again, I can live with it. I try to make up for it by getting very active in gay/human rights public issues (even though as an apparent straight guy). Again, thanks for the kind words.

[Will]

I have a friend who is in the same situation you are in. He's in his early sixties, has always (sort of) known he was gay, got married, had two children, and likes it that way. Now that he has come out to himself, his wife, and to a few friends, he no longer fears that something awful will happen when and if they "find out."

 

This man has chosen to stay with his wife of about thirty years; they love each other and have a strong relationship. However, he has never, ever, had sex with another man and doesn't intend to. He is faithful to his wife in every way but his fantasies, and he seems happy with his choice. For him, the problem was being in the closet. He finds it much easier to be an out-but-married man than he did to be a closeted-and-married man.

 

I am pretty certain that there are, in fact, lots of men in your shoes. NASAguy is one, for instance. The sad thing is that prudence makes it almost impossible for you to know each other. I do know that at the local Gay/Lesbian Community Center they have a support group for married gay men. You might look for something like that on the net, if you aren't close to a big city.

 

Thank you for telling us these things. Even anonymously, it can't have been easy, and I'm grateful.

[Guest allansmith63]

My memory tape tells me that a lot of stuff would be different - not necessarily better. It's all choices - if I had acknowledged being gay as a teen, I wouldn't have my children - particularly my son, who still sees his dad as his hero. But I also wouldn't have hurt them as painfully as I have.

 

So many questions. Would I have survived the early 80's? Would I have the job I do today? My profession? Would I have ever painted a watercolor? Would I have ever volunteered to work with a queer youth support group? Would I have ever met Matt_Vancouver, who helped me to learn so very much about myself? Would I have ever had the pleasure of knowing Tampa Yankee? And most importantly, would I have ever met the man who tells me he loves me every day? On and on the questions come when I think about having come out to my parents in my teens.

 

So many wonderful things have come out of my living my life the way I did. My memory tape plays with all the things that have come out of my living in the closet the way I did. I guess as Paul Anka sings "I did it my way!" and dammit, I'm glad I did!

 

Allan

[Matt_Vancouver]

Pleasure Mr. Smith

 

My experience is similar to Allans, I too lived closeted, was married, have a child, and was deathly afraid of how the people around me would react, particularly my family. I never would have guessed they would have accepted it as easily as they did, but I'm glad.

It's not so easy for others. I have friends who haven't spoken to their family since coming out.

I think things would have been very different had I come out as a teen. I wouldn't have my daughter for one, and my parents more than likely would have reacted differently.

I struggled with being gay for years, thought I could make it go away, but realizing it wasn't going anywhere, I made a choice.

When it was my 'time' I was willing to lose everyone close to me, if that were to happen, just so that I didn't have to live a lie anymore. It was a pretty scary possibility, but, to me, wasn't as scary as living a closeted existence. After all it is 'my' life, why shouldn't I be true to myself, instead of living a false life to please others around me?

I made the right choice.

I'm much happier, still working on the relationship with my daughter, have friends that I can 'honestly' share myself with, and I'm probably closer to my parents than at any point in the past.

Some fun reading for guys on the verge, or freshly out men, is 'The Gay Manual'. Lots of tongue in cheek caricatures of the 'gay community'. Mostly for fun, but frighteningly accurate: )

Matt(birth, school, marraige, father....birth.....)

[+ Lucky]

That last part- that you are active in gay/human rights activities, says a lot. SOME men like to have the advantages of the gay world, but do nothing to help when help is needed. And they aren't all closet cases!

[Guest tmbg]

You bring up a very good point about giving back. A long time ago I use to give back with my time. I raised money for my towns's AIDS food bank. Yet, that was nearly a decade ago. It isn't that I do not care anymore, I guess as I grow older I simply do not have the motivation and financial resources I once had.

 

Also, HooBoy thanks for the words of support to my earlier post in this thread.

 

Cheers! Ritchie

[Guest cmp]

>> [...] or who call themselves "bi."

 

> you know what they say - there are more flying purpel one eyed

> unicorns who talk then there are really "bi" males.

 

I strongly resent those remarks. Gay (and other types of "not-completely-straight") people are often subject to bigotry or lack of understanding. It should then follow that they will never do the same upon others, right?

 

I understand I am one of the few people who are much more comfortable in the closet than out. I am sure I am one of *many* people who get as hard looking at a hot lady as looking at a hot twink.

[Guest Studpony]

Gentlemen,

 

Great topic, I usuaually don't respond to the many topics here, but I have to step forward here. I am in my early 40's and have always known that I had gay tendencies, from age 15. I am in the closet, unmarried, and live alone. I have had relationships with women, but they have been unfullfilling. I am a prominate businessman who is known in my community. If you met me, you would not guess that I am gay. I have given a great deal of thought to coming out, but I have decided against it. At this point in my life, I think it would harm too many people, harm them more than it would benefit me, ie my family. Also, I am concerned at how it would affect my business.

 

Many would chose to disagree with my choice, however I have made it in free will and it is my personal business, which is what freedom is all about. I hire escorts in order to satisfy my sexual desires. I find joy in my life doing what I do, and I have no regrets. I wouldn't recommend it to everyone, but it works for me. Ciao Gentlemen

[Bilbo]

Dear StudPony,

Your decision is AOK with me, so long as you don't let the need to stay in your closet push you into doing things, saying things, voting things which would be detrimental to those of us who are out of the closet.

It may have taken a lot of courage to say what you said here, and if it did I applaud you for it and I am thankful that that same courage will hopefully allow you to make sure your business is a nondiscriminatory workplace.

I also hope that if the chance comes to vote for legalization of prostitution, you will vote in favor of it, even though you probably couldn't campaign for its passage.

Sincerely,

Bilbo

[Guest Everett]

This has been an interesting topic, and I can agree with and understand many of the feelings that have been expressed here.

 

I have been thinking about this issue (disclosing that I’m gay) in my own life the past few weeks and months. I was considering whether I should tell a friend of mine at work. He is someone who I feel I could trust.

 

I don't believe anyone knows that I am gay. For example, about two months ago three guys I work with, and who I consider friends, were joking around with me and telling me that I need to get out more and date women. (In my office, there are two people out of about 25 who aren't in a hetero relationship with someone). Sometimes on a Friday I'll go out with several guys from work for a drink, and a few times there have been some women along with us who we encounter occasionally during work, or some of these women will be at the same bar and we'll end up talking with them. I know one of them likes me - she openly flirts with me.

 

Well, three of my male coworkers brought up the topic that I need to get out more and start "getting some tail." As I said, they were joking with me, but underneath the jokes I know they'd like to see me in a relationship with a woman. They said I'm "at the top of the food chain" when it comes to men (I'm a relatively young attorney), and that I should go after one of these recent college grads. I gave them some excuses as to why I didn't pursue anyone (some rather weak excuses), and my friends just didn't understand why I behaved this way. They thought I should be on the prowl.

 

One of these same guys (the one I would most likely tell), a few weeks later, said he'd like to see me dating someone, in part, so that I could share my war stories with him. He got married last year, and most of his other friends are married or engaged, which is true for my friends outside of work as well. He swaps stories with his married friends, but he said the stories about sex with your wife get dull. If I were living the swinging bachelor life, he'd love to hear what I'm doing. Despite the jokes and wanting to live vicariously through my private life, I know their intentions are good. They'd like to see me happy and dating women, which equals happiness to them. At times like these I feel as if I'm alone.

 

In the past I've spent weekends in NY or DC, alone, and as the highlight of the weekend I've hired escorts. I don't go to gay bars, not that there are many in the small city in which I live. The closest gay community of any size, to where I live, would be in Philly.

 

Last month I went to South Beach for vacation. I'd never been to an area in which it is so open and acceptable to be gay. This was the first time I went to openly gay clubs, and I had a blast! Not that I did anything wild in these clubs, but to be in that type of atmosphere (and to have guys actually hitting on me) was certainly a boost to my sagging ego.

 

What really affected me was as I was lying on the beach one afternoon, I saw two cute guys who were obviously a couple. The way they looked at each other when they talked, and the way one guy would put his arm around the other and the second would pat the first guy's butt as each laid on his chest, was fascinating to me. I was impressed how two guys could be so comfortable with each other - I was intrigued and, in all honesty, a bit envious. Not that I wished them any ill will, just that I wanted to experience similar feelings toward a guy.

 

I really don't talk about my dating situation with anyone. Sometimes I mention girls I’ve dated and broken up with in the past after a few months of dating. Whenever I’ve been with women in the past I tried to think about guys to help me get turned on. I can’t do that for long, never mind the fact that it’s not fair to the woman. I don't like the deceitful feeling I have when the dating topic comes up. I also feel uncomfortable when friends try to play matchmaker. It is living a lie, whether I tell an untruth or simply because I'm not honest when these situations arise and I don't express my true orientation.

 

When I got back from South Beach I thought I had the courage to tell one person. I had no plans to make a general announcement. It would simply be easier in my work environment if I kept this to myself, or maybe told one discreet friend. I believed that if I could unburden myself to one person, I would feel better. I haven’t done this yet. The person I intended to tell asked what I did in Miami, and I was vague and evasive. I talked about the good-looking women there, and that I went out to some clubs. I didn’t say much else. I feel deceitful, and also as if I’m disappointing him and everyone else who encourages me to be a hound dog towards women. And despite the fact that the friend I planned to tell has a sister who is a lesbian, and he’s at ease with that, I have this fear that if I tell him it’ll alter and damage the friendship I have with him.

 

I also had no plans to tell my family. I don’t know how they would react. I have no brothers or sisters, but my parents are older. They’re very good about not putting pressure on me to settle down, but I know they would like to see me married and eventually have kids. I have no intention of going that route.

 

Some days I want to tell my friend, and other days I think I have too much to lose, and I should simply continue to keep this to myself and maintain this uneasy existence. And what would I gain by telling one friend and not telling anyone else? Sometimes I believe it’s best to stay silent rather than to come out. If I came out, I imagine there would be ramifications I can’t foresee as I sit here and think about this. Perhaps it’s better to deal with the devil you know rather than the devil you don’t know, and the one I know is the one that encourages me to keep things as they are and stay silent. I guess, however, that this is the deceptive and cowardly way. We all grow and change, so perhaps as I wrestle with this issue I’ll come to the conclusion that I should talk about this with someone.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

Everett,

 

Some days I want to tell my friend, and other days I think I have too much to lose, and I should simply continue to keep this to myself and maintain this uneasy existence. And what would I gain by telling one friend and not telling anyone else? Sometimes I believe it’s best to stay silent rather than to come out. If I came out, I imagine there would be ramifications I can’t foresee as I sit here and think about this.

 

It is my impression from your post that your are not yet ready or desparate enough to come out -- you are not comfortable with the potential ramifications. If you tell someone other than family (and that may not be an excpetion either) you should be prepared to have it come out. Your friend may keep your confidence or he may not -- intentionally or unintentionally. It is situations such as this that can test friendships very quickly. If you tell and it does come out will you be able to deal with the aftermath. If yes, go for it.

 

THe reason to come out to one or all is comfort and openness at some level. So be sure that you will be comfortable with the consequences as they may unfold. THere is no putting the Genie back in this bottle once it is out.

 

Best wishes whatever you choose.

 

TY

[Will]

Everett, of the hundreds, maybe thousands, of posts that I've read on M4M, yours is outstanding for its bare-bones description of what it's like -- right here in January 2002 -- to be an attractive, well-educated, gainfully employed, articulate young gay man who is also in the closet. A leaden pall of sadness fell over me as I read, and not a little white-hot anger rushed through as well.

 

I think you know what you have to do. You know it very well, because you yourself point with bull's-eye accuracy to those situations that make you feel horrible and those that make you feel great.

 

My greatest hope for you is that you will begin in earnest to seek out friendships -- actual friendships -- with other gay men. Without some form of support and comfort from people who know and accept you for who you are, it might prove too difficult to come out, even to your friend at work.

 

Maybe it would help to ask yourself whether a friend who would turn his back on you if you came out was a real friend, anyway. Maybe it would help to prepare yourself for some future conversation with your parents if you asked yourself if they would chose for you to remain single, lonely, and isolated simply because you didn't want to tell them the truth about yourself.

 

Whatever else you do, please, please, please become a regular on this site. There are lots of men in a geographical situation parallel to yours and here you won't feel so alone.

[duke37]

I just want to join TY and Will in saying we are rooting for you. There is some good advice available here. I hope while you are considering your options you continue to check in and let us know how you are doing.

 

Your situation could have been me 6 months ago. I had the opportunity to get out of my small town and see a different world. A place where a gay couple could openly express their love and feelings. It took a little while but I knew that if I was ever going to be happy I had to take the chance on myself and my friends and family and tell the truth. My question for you is there any way you can see living your life how you are living it now? And since you want something different how are you going to get there? I tried to fight it for 17 years and it never got easier.

 

The suggestion to make gay friends is a very good one. Some of my new friends are excorts some are just big hearted people I have been fortunate to meet. All have been more special to me than I can describe.

 

Good luck and God bless, Jeff

 

"Love is the only thing that makes things one without destroying them."

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

[Boston Guy]

>I also had no plans to tell my family. I don’t know how

>they would react. I have no brothers or sisters, but my

>parents are older. They’re very good about not putting

>pressure on me to settle down, but I know they would like to

>see me married and eventually have kids. I have no

>intention of going that route.

>

>Some days I want to tell my friend, and other days I think I

>have too much to lose, and I should simply continue to keep

>this to myself and maintain this uneasy existence. And what

>would I gain by telling one friend and not telling anyone

>else? Sometimes I believe it’s best to stay silent rather

>than to come out. If I came out, I imagine there would be

>ramifications I can’t foresee as I sit here and think about

>this. Perhaps it’s better to deal with the devil you know

>rather than the devil you don’t know, and the one I know is

>the one that encourages me to keep things as they are and

>stay silent. I guess, however, that this is the deceptive

>and cowardly way. We all grow and change, so perhaps as I

>wrestle with this issue I’ll come to the conclusion that I

>should talk about this with someone.

 

Everett -

 

First, welcome! I, too, hope you'll become a regular here. You clearly have much to offer and I think you'll find that there is a great deal of collective experience here from which you may be able to benefit.

 

Next, if you were here in front of me, I'd take out a piece of paper and draw a line down the middle. On one side, I'd ask you to write down the reasons why you should come out. On the other, I'd ask you to write down the reasons why you shouldn't.

 

Since you're not here, I'm going to try to build a partial list based on the things you've said. If I'm misinterpreting you, please forgive me. And the lists I'll construct are in no particular order, just the result of scanning what you wrote from top to bottom.

 

Reasons why you should come out:

 

[ol]

[li] You're gay

[li] You're not in a relationship and will not pursue one with a woman

[li] At times, you feel alone (which I am translating to mean lonely)

[li] You're ego is "sagging" but when you went to an openly gay environment, you had a blast, had guys hit on you -- and felt better about yourself

[li] You want to be able to experience a loving relationship with another man

[li] You feel deceitful when you are talking about your life with your friends and co-workers

[li] When you are with a woman, you fantasize about men and feel you are being unfair to the woman

[li] You feel like you are living a lie

[li] You feel like you are carrying a great burden

[li] You suspect that the course you are taking right now might be deceptive and cowardly

[/ol]

 

Reasons why you shouldn't come out:

 

[ol]

[li] You're very straight co-workers might be disappointed in you or worse

[li] Your friends would like to see you dating someone (a woman)

[li] You're afraid that if you tell your friend that you are gay, it will alter and damage your friendship with him

[li] Your parents would like to see you married and eventually have kids

[li] You don't know how your parents would react if you come out

[li] You feel like you have too much to lose to risk coming out

[li] Sometimes you feel like it's best just to stay silent

[li] You think that if you come out, there will be ramifications that you cannot foresee right now

[li] You think sometimes that it's better to deal with the devil you know instead of the devil you don't

[/ol]

 

Everett, you're post struck very close to home to me: although I've now been out for 20 years, I didn't come out until I was 27. Like many guys, I went through the dating phase (with women) and then the not-dating phase, through the periods of fear and uncertainty, through feeling alone and lonely.

 

Coming out is always a process and it's one that necessarily involves a great deal of self-examination. In order to overcome a lifetime of teaching to the contrary, we have to work through incredibly important life lessons, often with no help at all. It's usually difficult and sometimes very difficult. But, since we have only one life, it's clearly worth trying to live it as well as possible.

 

I'd like to ask you to stop right here, before reading on. Go back and look at those two lists. See if they seem real to you. Have I gotten them right, or close enough? Are there things that should be added to one side or the other? If you make your own lists, I'd encourage you to add everything that you can think of, whether it seems small or large. Sometimes, the small things that spring to mind can be very illustrative later one.

 

And when you are looking at the lists, after you feel like you've gotten them right, what do they tell you? What do they say about you or about your life?

 

Once you've done that, come back and read further.

 

-----

 

The reason that I wanted you to think about your own lists is so you could come to your own conclusions before having your thoughts directed by what I would like to add below.

 

When I viewed the two lists I constructed above, something jumped out at me right away -- everything on the first list is personal and has to do with you and your happiness while everything on the second list has to do with other people and a fear of how they will react if you come out to them.

 

That means we could summarize the lists by saying "you're gay, alone, lonely, unhappy and feel like you are living a lie but aren't sure if you should come out because other people might react badly or dislike you if you do." That's a little strong but it sure seems like it's a fairly accurate summary of what you've said.

 

If so, please know that you aren't alone in this kind of thinking. Not only have most of us been there before, there are absolutely right this very minute countless other guys in the US and elsewhere feeling exactly the same thing.

 

You say you don't believe anyone knows you are gay. My experience, and that of my friends, was that a fair number of the important people in our lives had already suspected it before we came out to them. Not all people and not in all cases. But I think it unlikely that none of the people in your life suspect anything.

 

You also say you're not sure you will have the "courage to tell someone" and you think that perhaps the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

 

But, Everett, living with the devil you know means being alone. It means being lonely, being dishonest with your friends and you're family. It means being unhappy, in the only life you have to live.

 

Dealing with the other devil, the one you don't know, may well be frightening. Coming out is something you've never done before. It's scary, because it is unknown and because it might threaten your relationships with the other people in your life.

 

And that's true. It is scary and it might well affect those relationships. You could lose friends. Your colleagues could react badly. Your parents could disown you.

 

But, if you come out, in the end you will be able to forge a new life for yourself, a life free of dishonesty, a life in which you are able to dare to meet guys, have relationships, take a chance (or two or three) with love, be able to go out and have fun on the weekends -- in short, live. Live.

 

Passion is important in life. I don't mean sex. I mean passion. We have to have passion in our life. Right now, it sounds like there isn't a lot of passion in yours. You need to grab onto life and start living again.

 

Of all the gay men I've know, most have had some problems with their parents when they came out. But, most of the time, it has worked out and their relationships ended up better than ever. Some guys come out and end up changing jobs. Well, so what? We change jobs routinely for lots of reasons. Changing jobs so we can work with people who are willing to accept us for who we really are is a good thing, not a bad thing.

 

This has gotten incredibly long and I apologize for the great lenght. But there are so many things I wish I could say to you. So many ways I'd like to encourage you.

 

I do have two specific recommendations:

 

1. Don't come out to your co-workers at this time, including your friend. If you do and it goes badly, you'll have no support structure to your support you and you'll find yourself running back into the closet and slamming the door. That would be human nature but also a terrible shame.

 

2. Do immediately start making some gay friends. As a gay man, you need to populate your life with some gay people. Go to New York or go to Philly. Go out to the bars. Talk to people -- FORCE YOURSELF TO TALK TO PEOPLE!!! You need to meet people and make friends. Tell the guys you are talking to that you are just starting to come out. Some will flee :-). But others will offer to help and may end up becoming some of your new great friends. Look to people of all ages, not just guys who you think are hot. You need friends, people you can turn to, talk to and confide in.

 

Once you've started making gay friends, relax. Have fun. Give yourself some time -- you're not on a timetable. But have fun. Over time, and probably not much time, you'll start to feel like you're living again. You'll start to see that there is a whole world out there beyond the world you've been living in, a world in which you can be very happy.

 

In the best of all worlds, you'll end up with good gay friends as well keep your good straight friends. If you are honest with people and not judgmental, if you give them time to react when you come out to them, then you've got a good chance of that.

 

But, either way, concentrate on you, on your life, on your happiness. Let other people deal with their fears and their emotions.

 

I wish you much luck.

 

BG

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>Some days I want to tell my friend, and other days I think I

>have too much to lose, and I should simply continue to keep

>this to myself and maintain this uneasy existence. And what

>would I gain by telling one friend and not telling anyone

>else?

 

Last year I dated a very closeted guy for about six months -- he was still with his girlfriend when we met -- and it was a real learning experience (I've been out since I was still in high school). He's an international student at one of the local universities, and the int'l students community is very tightly knit at that school. As a group they tend to be quite conservative and anti-gay in their humor. Gossip spreads at faxlike speeds and there is some overlap between his friends at school and friends of his sister (he lives with his family and it's an intensely, at times smotheringly, close Filipino household). He really struggled with the feeling that there was nobody he could trust.

 

However, he did at one point decide to tell his best friend, who, yes, was great about it, and I witnessed a huge transformation in how he felt about the whole issue. He is still closeted for practical reasons -- I don't think he'll want to take any big leaps until he's at least living on his own -- and he still can't bring himself to talk about his current (also closeted) boyfriend without referring to him as "This Person," even when there's nobody remotely within earshot. But having that one person he can talk to has made a huge difference. He is able to tell his friend things he had no idea he was dying to say, and his friend is happy to get to know a side of him that nobody else knows. He carries his secret more lightly, now; it doesn't oppress him nearly as much. The other thing that has happened is he has gotten to know about other closeted students in his circle at school, for it turns out that other people had also found his friend a trustworthy person to confide in.

 

Of course, before he told his friend he was able to confide in me, and I have no doubt that that helped, so I would echo other people's advice to start seeking out gay friends. But at some point you will need to tell someone who has known you longer, in some ways better than and in other ways not as well as your new gay friends, someone who will make you feel great by saying, "you're the same amazing person I've always liked, and I'm still your friend."

 

Boston Guy's typically thoughtful post got your "list" about right, I suspect; it probably does break down to reasons to come out for yourself versus reasons to stay closeted to protect others (or to protect yourself from others). I would only add that, astonishing as it usually is to discover, your sexuality is probably quite low on other people's list of things to worry about, as evidenced by the fact that the anecdote which sticks out in your mind about friends' peer pressure took place TWO MONTHS AGO. These don't sound like people who are sitting around drawing up expectations for you to live up to. They like you and want to see you happy, and their cultural assumption is that dating a girl is what will do that for you. (Chances are if you tell them you're gay they'll start driving you crazy by wanting to introduce you to their other gay friend. Wanna meet fifty gay people quick? Tell one person that you're gay.) I other words, I betcha about 75% of the "pressure from others" that you perceive is self-generated. Face down that 75%, and the other 25 is a piece of cake.

 

>If I came out, I imagine there would be

>ramifications I can’t foresee as I sit here and think about

>this.

 

Yes, indeed. Freedom carries its ramifications. Fortunately, one of the most immediate ramifications will be a surge in your self-confidence as you realize that you really can deal with whatever ramifications come from being true to who you are.

 

>Perhaps it’s better to deal with the devil you know

>rather than the devil you don’t know, and the one I know is

>the one that encourages me to keep things as they are and

>stay silent.

 

Don't forget about the angels you don't know; as a group they are nicer, smarter and more formidable than the devils you don't know. They'll watch your back. Thank you for your post and good luck!