Grammar and Spelling

August 26, 2001

>One reason (of many) why my

>ex is my ex were

>his constant corrections. At

>first I let it slide.

> Then I would purposely

>use adjectives vs. adverbs, and

>incorrect noun-verb agreement, and

>definate and indefinate pronouns.

>Think he got the point,

>and he posed a question

>he had. Said in

>his class, one student remarked

>he was offended when he

>was corrected publically. My

>ex thought was right thing

>to do, trying to help

>this poor soul get over

>his use of double negatives.

>

May I correct this paragraph? Just kidding! I'm one of those guys who, when asked "Can I ask you a question?" answers "You just did!" But I also take criticism well. You stated that one of the reasons we should avoid correcting people is that English may be a second (or third) language. Especially when I'm speaking a foreign language, I appreciate being corrected. Otherwise I keep making the same stupid mistakes.

For example, I was with a patient and her sister-in-law recently. I was trying to figure out if they were related, and I asked "Son relaciones?" They corrected me, and informed me that I asked them if they were having sex. Well, that's an extreme example, but a milder one was my patient who informed me that when I asked how her husband was "Como esta su esposo?", that I was being too informal ("Como esta su marido?" is better, I learned). I could have thought "What nerve to correct me when I'm making an effort to speak Spanish!" Instead, I appreciated the education and thanked her.

When someone corrects me, I can look at it as a slight or as an educational gift. I choose to view it in the latter manner. Of course, this does not mean that it's necessary to point out obvious typographical errors. Nevertheless, some people would be grateful to learn how to spell "definite." And I don't agree that it's too late to learn something once you're in college. At least I hope it's not to late to learn in college!!

And I'm sure jealous of anyone who has so many eligible men after him that he can dump guys because they correct his grammar (although I know there was more to it that)...

August 26, 2001

Of course getting the message across is more important,

but I don't buy that just because we're on the Internet, grammar, style and spelling suddenly don't matter anymore. We should all try our best.

However, correcting the mistakes of others IMHO is rather lacking in style. In the eyes of speakers of International English, the whole idea of American English is an abomination, but we treat it with humour—well, at least we try to. It’s not going to go away, and neither is sloppy spelling.

MrB

PS I believe the preferred spelling is advertise not advertize, even in AmE :-) :-) Feel free to correct me (and Webster) if I'm mistaken.

August 26, 2001

Of course getting the message across is more important,

but I don't buy that just because we're on the Internet, grammar, style and spelling suddenly don't matter anymore. We should all try our best.

However, correcting the mistakes of others IMHO is rather lacking in style. In the eyes of speakers of International English, the whole idea of American English is an abomination, but we treat it with humour—well, at least we try to. It’s not going to go away, and neither is sloppy spelling.

MrB

PS I believe the preferred spelling is advertise not advertize, even in AmE :-) :-) Feel free to correct me (and Webster) if I'm mistaken.

August 26, 2001

As a child, I developed a slight stutter as a result of a psychotic mother who corrected every word that came out of my mouth. I was constantly wondering if what I was about to say was

correct or not. She wasn't about to have her children grow up

speaking like a bunch of hicks(I grew up in southern Ohio).

I learned to read before kindergarten and by the fourth grade, I was reading at a 12th grade level. I do have difficulties with

punctuation...slows down my thought process and quite honestly

I don't remember the correct usage of semi-colons and commas at

times.

I never use spellcheck. I always take the time to proofread everything I've written. Just as I would with a handwritten letter or memo. I'd like to think that most of the posters here

would do the same. Why should posting on message boards be any

different? I think it's just laziness for the most part. Several

misspelled words in a post slow me down just as much as an incoherent thought. It's simply a part of effective communication. Some posters obviously never proofread what they

have written.

Yes, it's a pet peeve of mine. I corrected a guy at the gym the other day when he said Margaret Cho was coming to town,

but he pronounced her name CHOW instead of CHO. Some people just

don't seem to hear the correct pronunciation of words.

I don't know if correcting people in a public forum is necessarily appropriate. Maybe if everyone would take a little more time in composing their messages, there wouldn't be

as many glaring mistakes.

Jeff4hire@aol.com

P.S. DC, please feel free to correct anything in this message.

August 26, 2001

As a child, I developed a slight stutter as a result of a psychotic mother who corrected every word that came out of my mouth. I was constantly wondering if what I was about to say was

correct or not. She wasn't about to have her children grow up

speaking like a bunch of hicks(I grew up in southern Ohio).

I learned to read before kindergarten and by the fourth grade, I was reading at a 12th grade level. I do have difficulties with

punctuation...slows down my thought process and quite honestly

I don't remember the correct usage of semi-colons and commas at

times.

I never use spellcheck. I always take the time to proofread everything I've written. Just as I would with a handwritten letter or memo. I'd like to think that most of the posters here

would do the same. Why should posting on message boards be any

different? I think it's just laziness for the most part. Several

misspelled words in a post slow me down just as much as an incoherent thought. It's simply a part of effective communication. Some posters obviously never proofread what they

have written.

Yes, it's a pet peeve of mine. I corrected a guy at the gym the other day when he said Margaret Cho was coming to town,

but he pronounced her name CHOW instead of CHO. Some people just

don't seem to hear the correct pronunciation of words.

I don't know if correcting people in a public forum is necessarily appropriate. Maybe if everyone would take a little more time in composing their messages, there wouldn't be

as many glaring mistakes.

Jeff4hire@aol.com

P.S. DC, please feel free to correct anything in this message.

August 26, 2001

Ooooh...there were many more reasons. But, that is worthy of an entire website. Despite the long line of hot men waiting outside my door, I would not dump a boyfrined just becuase of the grammar issue. In my feeble attempts at discussion and compromise, he failed to see why anyone would get offended when they were corrected in public. So, it's more than really the act of correcting, but more about unwillingness to tone it down or accept that some find it humiliating.

Yes, we should use language to our benefit, and do so correctly. This message board is about sex, prostitution, and some fun. Do I really have to take out my thesauras (sp)and elments of style, and edit every line? Let's keep sight of what we are talking about. This is not an educational or professional journal.

I learned Spanish as well, and I always appreciated feedback and corrections from native speakers. While learning Spanish, I accepted I was on the grammatical level of a child. I was eager to learn and humble. This situation is a bit different than a native English speaker correcting another.

DCboy, I didn't mean to malign you, or imply you were boorish. My post was more about the grammar thing in general.

August 26, 2001

Ooooh...there were many more reasons. But, that is worthy of an entire website. Despite the long line of hot men waiting outside my door, I would not dump a boyfrined just becuase of the grammar issue. In my feeble attempts at discussion and compromise, he failed to see why anyone would get offended when they were corrected in public. So, it's more than really the act of correcting, but more about unwillingness to tone it down or accept that some find it humiliating.

Yes, we should use language to our benefit, and do so correctly. This message board is about sex, prostitution, and some fun. Do I really have to take out my thesauras (sp)and elments of style, and edit every line? Let's keep sight of what we are talking about. This is not an educational or professional journal.

I learned Spanish as well, and I always appreciated feedback and corrections from native speakers. While learning Spanish, I accepted I was on the grammatical level of a child. I was eager to learn and humble. This situation is a bit different than a native English speaker correcting another.

DCboy, I didn't mean to malign you, or imply you were boorish. My post was more about the grammar thing in general.

Will · August 26, 2001

Here's a consideration that I'm not sure has appeared on this thread. (And it's offered by a grammar-fanatic if there ever was one.)

A person's writing communicates who he is and I imagine that is something most of us want from M4M. It would be a pity if we all wrote the flat-textured, Toyota-like, grotesquely pretentious English prose so dear to what is called "the business community," which among other linguistic curses brought us the awful practice of turning nouns into verbs (e.g., "to input," "to impact," "to dialogue") and archly flourished overstatements like the hideous "at this point in time," instead of plain old "now." Give me a split infinitive or a run-on sentence rather than that kind of language, however technically correct it may be, any time.

One of the things I enjoy about this board is the variety of people I meet here. Many, maybe even most, are men that I would never be able to encounter in my professional life. Almost everybody in that world writes near-perfect English, although, as somebody already noted, occasionally we all type "there" when we mean "their" or "they're" -- and no spell-check is going to catch the mistake. Unlike many "correct" writers, quite a few regular contributors to this site give us savory prose with verve, zest, and humor. Whatever Messers Strunk & White might say about their grammar and usage, those contributors' comments bring me enormous pleasure and, even more important, insight. I love reading what they say, exactly the way they say it.

Therefore, I'm all for a consensus that would include everybody. Some people toss off a comment and hit the "send" button with no further thought. Others, like JeffOH and I, edit and re-write over and over before posting. In the generally flavorless anonymity of cyberspace, devoid as it is of sound and visual affect, the written word is about all we've got as a means of expression. I say, write any old way you want to.

As for correcting someone's writing in a forum like this, in my opinion moral intentions are irrelevant. It's simply in bad taste.

Will · August 26, 2001

Here's a consideration that I'm not sure has appeared on this thread. (And it's offered by a grammar-fanatic if there ever was one.)

A person's writing communicates who he is and I imagine that is something most of us want from M4M. It would be a pity if we all wrote the flat-textured, Toyota-like, grotesquely pretentious English prose so dear to what is called "the business community," which among other linguistic curses brought us the awful practice of turning nouns into verbs (e.g., "to input," "to impact," "to dialogue") and archly flourished overstatements like the hideous "at this point in time," instead of plain old "now." Give me a split infinitive or a run-on sentence rather than that kind of language, however technically correct it may be, any time.

One of the things I enjoy about this board is the variety of people I meet here. Many, maybe even most, are men that I would never be able to encounter in my professional life. Almost everybody in that world writes near-perfect English, although, as somebody already noted, occasionally we all type "there" when we mean "their" or "they're" -- and no spell-check is going to catch the mistake. Unlike many "correct" writers, quite a few regular contributors to this site give us savory prose with verve, zest, and humor. Whatever Messers Strunk & White might say about their grammar and usage, those contributors' comments bring me enormous pleasure and, even more important, insight. I love reading what they say, exactly the way they say it.

Therefore, I'm all for a consensus that would include everybody. Some people toss off a comment and hit the "send" button with no further thought. Others, like JeffOH and I, edit and re-write over and over before posting. In the generally flavorless anonymity of cyberspace, devoid as it is of sound and visual affect, the written word is about all we've got as a means of expression. I say, write any old way you want to.

As for correcting someone's writing in a forum like this, in my opinion moral intentions are irrelevant. It's simply in bad taste.

August 26, 2001

I have been seeing the same escort for 2 years. His spelling and grammer are near perfect in e-mails. His grammer is near perfect in person. Does that make a difference in my opinion of him? Yes, I really appreciate his care in using spell check and proof reading his e-mails. Over a long period of time with the same client, an escort with these good skills can offset faults

in other areas.

August 26, 2001

I have been seeing the same escort for 2 years. His spelling and grammer are near perfect in e-mails. His grammer is near perfect in person. Does that make a difference in my opinion of him? Yes, I really appreciate his care in using spell check and proof reading his e-mails. Over a long period of time with the same client, an escort with these good skills can offset faults

in other areas.

+ *deej* · August 26, 2001

>"the business community," which among other linguistic curses brought us

Let us not forget that other bastion of linguistic torture: government, which brought us the magical phrase "It is hoped". I once worked for a federal agency that was gradually decentralizing fiscal responsibility to each local office, known as decentralized offices. The term that came into use for the remainder was non-decentralized. ;-)

The English language can be a wonderful thing and a source for much humor when abused. (Heck, Rodney Dangerfield made a career of it!)

+ *deej* · August 26, 2001

>"the business community," which among other linguistic curses brought us

Let us not forget that other bastion of linguistic torture: government, which brought us the magical phrase "It is hoped". I once worked for a federal agency that was gradually decentralizing fiscal responsibility to each local office, known as decentralized offices. The term that came into use for the remainder was non-decentralized. ;-)

The English language can be a wonderful thing and a source for much humor when abused. (Heck, Rodney Dangerfield made a career of it!)

August 26, 2001

http://www.m-w.com lists advertize as an accepted variant of advertise.

consider yourself corrected

August 26, 2001

http://www.m-w.com lists advertize as an accepted variant of advertise.

consider yourself corrected

August 26, 2001

and i--obviously--am unconcerned with your judgements of whether ANYTHING from me is in good (or bad) taste!

August 26, 2001

and i--obviously--am unconcerned with your judgements of whether ANYTHING from me is in good (or bad) taste!

+ *Charlie* · August 26, 2001

The majority of the posts in this thread contain grammatical or mechanical errors, even those which complain about them in others' posts (my God, dcescort: did you proofread your posts?). Ironically, those writers who seem to care least about technical correctness are the ones who are generally error-free.

We are not trying to impress clients or get good grades on our essays here. I take care that I express my point as clearly as I can, and I hope others have done the same, but I agree with those who say it is boorish to correct errors in grammar, punctuation or spelling if they do not confuse the reader about the message. If you wish to privately inform the writer that he has misspelled a name or consistently made a grammatical error which could affect readers' perception of his competence, use the inbox function. (By the way, congratulations to the writer who used "visual affect" correctly.)

+ *Charlie* · August 26, 2001

The majority of the posts in this thread contain grammatical or mechanical errors, even those which complain about them in others' posts (my God, dcescort: did you proofread your posts?). Ironically, those writers who seem to care least about technical correctness are the ones who are generally error-free.

We are not trying to impress clients or get good grades on our essays here. I take care that I express my point as clearly as I can, and I hope others have done the same, but I agree with those who say it is boorish to correct errors in grammar, punctuation or spelling if they do not confuse the reader about the message. If you wish to privately inform the writer that he has misspelled a name or consistently made a grammatical error which could affect readers' perception of his competence, use the inbox function. (By the way, congratulations to the writer who used "visual affect" correctly.)

Boston Guy · August 26, 2001

I was the person who posted the note to DCescortBoy that probably resulted in the creation of this thread. In that note, I told him that I thought it was inappropriate to correct the grammar and spelling of what other people post here.

Like Will, I'm something of a stickler for language and I appreciate good grammar and good spelling. As others have noted, a few misspelled words in a sentence can really slow us down as we're passing through it. Consequently, I do re-read what I write here before posting it in an attempt to catch errors in my own writing but I'm sure many errors still sneak through. I don't go so far as to cut and paste the text into a spell-checker, though; who has the spare time to do that?

As I said to DCescortBoy, I think context is everything. Most of us write in many different contexts and each context brings a different set of standards and a different set of rules. The rules for writing a letter to Mom are different than the rules for writing an article that will be submitted for publication to The New England Journal of Medicine. And although the sets of rules are very different in those two cases, neither is wrong and both are well-suited for their intended audience.

The Internet is no exception and writing here is vastly more informal than what is found in many other places. Posting here is far more like writing a letter to Mom or even writing down a recipe (with all of those short-cuts and abbreviations long accepted by cooks and chefs alike) than writing a business document.

Business documents can be tedious, as Will notes, and the language can be stifling. But well-written business documents are pithy and to the point, are designed to communicate business concepts quickly and efficiently to an informed audience, and follow accepted constructs. They are written in this manner precisely because the audience expects it and will then be able to concentrate on substance instead of style. Use of many of informal constructs we automatically accept on the Internet would doom many a business document; imagine inserting a :-) into the first paragraph of a business plan that was seeking funding for a new business idea!

Which brings me back to the concept of audience. In our proverbial letter to Mom, if Mom responded not to what we had written but rather with a note full of spelling and grammar corrections, we'd probably be rather disappointed. But she wouldn't, because informal notes are just that -- informal -- and although we always hope to write correctly, the rules for informal communication are very much relaxed.

It would be nice if everyone spelled every word correctly and always wrote clear and correct sentences. But if someone is taking the time to communicate with me and the others here, I am happy for it and I'm going to be very forgiving indeed of spelling errors (which are often simply typing errors) and loose grammar.

Some people write in incomplete sentences when they post. Some people create a whole post that consists simply of "ROTLMAO". I sometimes find that aggravating, because it takes time to find out that someone was simply amused by what someone else wrote, but it's all part of the game.

Some people use smiley's every three sentences. They vary the smiley and I can almost see them choosing the particular emoticon with great care. And I find it a little annoying because I think multiple smiley's make a whole post hard to read, with bright yellow faces everywhere. I sometimes want to say "But use your words to communicate your emotions!"

But that would be wrong and it is wrong of me to judge how they choose to communicate with us. That they choose to use their valuable time to do so at all is what is most important and I am grateful that they chosen to do so.

DCescortBoy asked if I wasn't making the same mistake I was accusing him of when I suggested that correcting other people was inappropriate. Perhaps. And I think that he believes that I am out to correct anything he writes (in this he is not correct; I have found some of this contributions quite interesting and I encourage him to continue posting). But I only posted my remarks after he had issued multiple corrections to what other people had written.

And I did so for the same reason that someone would or should pull someone aside at a party if they have been standing around correcting the other guests all night long: this is supposed to be fun and we're supposed to be simply enjoying what the others have to say. We'll enjoy it a lot more if we focus on the message and on supporting each other.

All of that notwithstanding, if DCescortBoy worked for me, I would happily submit all of my formal writing to him for proofreading. He seems to have a knack for it and he catches errors that I pass by. I don't know what he intends to do when he gets older, but good editors are always in demand.

BG

Boston Guy · August 26, 2001