Bare-backing Escort Encounters

[Rick Munroe]

RE: A lynching for the greater good?

 

>If the client was a "first-time poster" who said Rick

>Munroe was at fault and RM disagreed, I'd be inclined to

>believe Rick, again because he has established a history of

>credibility here.

 

Hey, can we use a different example here? I rarely have anal sex as it is, and the thought of doing it raw (whether as top or bottom) really grosses me out, you know? (Sorry, I just channeled Jennifer DiNuccio from Square Pegs )

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

RE: A lynching for the greater good?

 

>Argument sometimes can be made for its supremacy

>but I don't think it has been made in this case unless the

>sacrifices are equally shared among the parties.

>

 

Having reread this I obscured the point I was attempting to make. Fair play in the pursuit of justice doesn't necessarily require equallly shared sacrifices. It does require fair treatment on a level playing field. Sometimes that requires sacrifices from the parties involved.

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>The client saw the escort put on a condom

>prior to the initial insertion, and (1) naturally assumed the

>second time would also be safe, but (2) wasn’t in a “position”

>to observe the escort’s preparation for the second round,

>which is when the bare-backing occurred.

 

I'm not saying this to kick your friend when he's down, but people really need to get out of the habit of making "natural" assumptions about strangers who are fucking them. Whether it's a client, an escort, or someone you met online, or in a park, bar, bathhouse, sex club, etc., a stranger is a stranger, and when you decide to let a stranger fuck you you're taking a risk, and it's up to you to keep your eyes open, both proverbially and literally. Even if the stranger is someone who's been well reviewed by other strangers. Just because he was a nice guy with other people doesn't mean he's incapable of being an asshole with you. Maybe this guy's got a knack for sensing who he can get away with pulling this stunt on. After all, he's just as well reviewed and well liked today as he was the day before he met your unfortunate friend, because your friend's decided to let him get away with it. Maybe others have chosen, for reasons known only to them, to protect him as well.

 

I can't believe the reviews were ever intended to relieve clients of their responsibility for using good judgement and protecting their own health and safety, but sometimes I get the feeling that some people expect their every sexual encounter to be protected by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. But no amount of reviews will take the risk out of sex, and it definitely won't take the risk out of bottoming for someone you don't know. Rick's point above deserves underscoring and repeating: just because you saw the condom go on before the first insertion doesn't mean it's going to go on before every insertion unless YOU make sure it does. At least half the time the reason there IS a second insertion is because the top went soft while Mr. Happy was sheathed. If anything that's when you have to worry more about making sure the top doesn't decide to cut corners.

[giovoni]

Francisco Franko is still dead

 

And barebacking is still unsafe and people still try to do it to other people unknowingly. None of these facts will EVER change.

 

As Mr. Monroe pointed out earlier there are ways to make sure a condom goes in over any dick anytime someone puts one into your ass. You don't have to put mirrors or cameras or any complicated apparatus into the room you're in to see if your partners twinkie has it's wrapper on. Just reach back, or over, or to the side or down or whatever the positions demands and FEEL. If you don't feel the condom ask. If someone keeps pushing against you with his bare dick trying to push in kick him out, or leave, don't pay him, or don't charge him and don't interact with him again.

 

People interacting with other men that they don't wish to be barebacked by shouldn't need to be reminded of these things unless they are in their very first sex education class and even then I suspect this would be common knowledge in many circles.

 

If someone RAPES you forcing you to have unprotected sex with them then go to the police and take care of it there. As has been pointed out here we don't need it mentioned. If the incident is so egregious that police should be involved then mentioning it here sounds like 'one of my friends was shot.. and he wants to alert people that someone is going around shooting people, but he doesn't want that person's name divulged because all the pro-shooters here will yell at him..' no.. go to the police and get the guy off the streets. Same if another man rapes you no matter what the relationship, client, escort, friend, stranger, pet.

 

We really should be dedicating our time on this message board to things we haven't talked about before, like Bruno Goucho and Rick Monroe's Kate and Ashley doll collection.

Gio in Denver

http://www.angelfire.com/massagebygio

[giovoni]

Devon, well said.. I think I was writing my reply just as yours was posted.. it makes most of what I said sound extraneous especially as one of my points was that things on this board are getting repeated too much.

 

Oh well

[Argos]

I am amazed how cavalier some escorts are about barebacking. It is almost as if they have a death wish. Case in point. I have hooked up with one escort on several ocassions and he has always used a condom when he had topped me. He has complained about my insistence that he do so but I have always made sure that he complied with my request. What amazes me though was his willingness to let me top him without a condom which I did on several ocassions. I know this was stupid on my part but in the heat of the moment I threw caution to the wind. I am, and always have been, disease free but the escort had no way of verifying my status other than simply taking my word for it. I was willing to roll the dice and take the chance of not getting infected but I am no longer willing to take that chance. I just wonder how many other guys this escort allows to bareback him. He claims I was the only one. LOL It is a scary thought. I always assumed the escort was HIV+ even though he swears to this day that he is not.

[Guest ncm2169]

Hey...just returned after a long day and read the posts since this AM. I'm really overwhelmed at the responses: the incisive analysis, the honest debate about values and priorities and risks, the sincerity and caring for those involved in this and similar situations (real or hypothetical), and the excellent advice offered.

 

I ended my original post with a reference to a few bad apples spoiling the whole barrel, and it made me sad to say that. For what it's worth, the responses here from escorts are in many ways the most heartening and, IMHO, contain exactly the kind of precautionary advice necessary for clients who face the circumstances I described.

 

Rick, Derek, Jason, Devon, Gio: IMHO, you guys REALLY shined here. Well-deserved bravos and kudos to each of you!

[Boston Guy]

>What amazes me though was

>his willingness to let me top him without a condom which I did

>on several ocassions. I know this was stupid on my part but

>in the heat of the moment I threw caution to the wind. I am,

>and always have been, disease free but the escort had no way

>of verifying my status other than simply taking my word for

>it. I was willing to roll the dice and take the chance of not

>getting infected but I am no longer willing to take that

>chance. I just wonder how many other guys this escort allows

>to bareback him. He claims I was the only one. LOL It is a

>scary thought. I always assumed the escort was HIV+ even

>though he swears to this day that he is not.

 

 

I assume that you DO realize that fucking an HIV+ person without a condom is a good way to get infected with HIV? And that being on top does not somehow guarantee immunity from infection?

 

If you fuck someone without a condom -- especially someone that you "always assumed ... was HIV+" -- you can no longer be sure that your prior statement is true. That's the one where you say "I am, and always have been, disease free."

 

Even one barkbacking encounter is good reason to get tested and do follow-ups.

 

BG

[Argos]

Boston Guy, your assumption is 100% correct, and I fully realize I was an idiot for barebacking this guy. I had started getting out of control with my sexual practices and decided it was time to face the music and put a stop to an unsafe sexual practices. I finally came to the conclusion that I valued my life too much and did not want to become another statistic. I was fortunate that I never caught any type of disease, and I am still disease free. I have been tested on several ocassions, and even earlier this month I went to the AIM Healtcare Foundation where I had PCR/DNA HIV testing performed. I was obviously relieved when this and the testing I had for all other STD's came back negative. I had the whole battery of STD tests performed including throat cultures. I realize that it was totally irresponsible for me to bareback the escort and that I subjected myself to great risk. I am not making any excuses for my behavior but I am doing what I can to change it and make sure it does not happen again in the future.

[Boston Guy]

That's terrific. It's good of you to post. We're all human and we all make mistakes of one sort or another and it's good to get reminders that we need to be careful.

 

BG

[axebahia]

>I'm not saying this to kick your friend when he's down, but

>people really need to get out of the habit of making "natural"

>assumptions about strangers who are fucking them. Whether

>it's a client, an escort, or someone you met online, or in a

>park, bar, bathhouse, sex club, etc., a stranger is a

>stranger, and when you decide to let a stranger fuck you

>you're taking a risk, and it's up to you to keep your eyes

>open, both proverbially and literally.

 

Aren't you the guy who was bragging to all the world about your recent barebacking in your diary not so long ago?

[Barry]

>Even one barkbacking encounter is good reason to get tested

>and do follow-ups.

 

Does this have something to do with trees?

 

Sorry BG.....I just had to say it before Rick Monroe read it and jumped in.

 

Barry

[Boston Guy]

OMG... LOL!! It sounds painful...

 

BG

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

>OMG... LOL!! It sounds painful...

>

>BG

 

Takes tree-hugging... to a new level. :+

 

Speaking of trees... reminds of an escort I've crossed paths with on occasion. His bite is better than his bark. I think Barry has hugged this tree too. }(

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

What Happens When You Travel For Two Weeks

 

The barebacking issue has been discusses, as Lucky says, frequently. Devon and Rick both gave excellent answers, as well as or better than I could have framed any answer myself.

 

So I will limit myself to a few thoughts:

 

(1) accept responsibility for your own sexuality. This includes bringing condoms, lubes and whatever else you need on your trip. While airport security may not let you carry on some metal tit clamps or may question a huge latex or rubber sex toy, they are not yet confiscating either lube or condom. Even drug stores chains in smaller towns now carry KY Jelly and condoms, so it is not an excuse.

 

(2) if you, as a client, depended on the escort to bring the condoms and he agreed to do so and "forgot," SEND HIM HOME. You do not need to get laid.

 

(3) unsafe sex practices are not simply about HIV or AIDS. Unsafe sex practices which will cause STDs can happen simply with receptive or passive oral sex. Everyone should accept responsibility for what the touch, where it goes and how. The links have been posted before, but simple skin to skin contact with any anal or oral penetration, can give a client OR an escort an STD.

 

The links have been provided before on this site to any number of great on line resources. A simple search I just did for "STD" or specific STDs came up with a number of hits.

[woodlawn]

RE: Francisco Franko is still dead

 

>People interacting with other men that they don't wish to be

>barebacked by shouldn't need to be reminded of these things

>unless they are in their very first sex education class and

>even then I suspect this would be common knowledge in many

>circles.

 

This is the first I've heard that one of the lessons in any sex education class is that when you hire a male hooker you can't trust him to behave safely no matter what he says beforehand.

 

If you aren't too familiar with this website you may not be aware that some of the men who visit here have little or no experience having sex with other men. They come here looking for information because they have few or no other sources of such information. I think your assumption that everyone knows these things is unwarranted.

 

>If someone RAPES you forcing you to have unprotected sex with

>them then go to the police and take care of it there. As has

>been pointed out here we don't need it mentioned.

 

Again, you don't seem aware that a lot of the men who visit here are not in a position to go to the police and talk about something that happened when they hired a male hooker. For many, this is the only place they can go to vent or seek advice about such a thing.

[Boston Guy]

RE: Francisco Franko is still dead

 

>Again, you don't seem aware that a lot of the men who visit

>here are not in a position to go to the police and talk about

>something that happened when they hired a male hooker. For

>many, this is the only place they can go to vent or seek

>advice about such a thing.

 

I think this point is worth reinforcing.

 

Most guys who have an unsatisfactory experience with an escort -- even something like unexpected and unwanted barebacking -- will not go to the authorities. I also think that's something that isn't likely to change.

 

It was partially with this in mind that I previously recommended that either the client or his friend "name names": doing so may be the ONLY realistic way to convince guys that there is a price to be paid for this kind of behavior.

 

BG

[giovoni]

RE: Francisco Franko is still dead

 

That's nice.. Sex education classes don't say that you should use a condom with male sex workers. Because todays americans are so damn stupid that if you only say use condoms with all of your sex partners no one is going to make the huge leap that they should also use them with escorts that they hire. I stand by what I said. If someone is coming here to learn how to have sex with an escort and wants to know if he should make sure that the escort is using a condom he can start a thread. I'd like to see some of the users of this thread answer that question.

 

As for the authorities, I'm not sure which people here are in areas that don't have police thus putting them in a position to not go to them to help them with an assault or rape. As for giving other people a heads up for the poor poor clients who don't want to check for condoms on escorts there is another section of this site which contains reviews and if someone thinks they have been wronged by an escort they can write one there. Especially since when it's convienient to the discussion so many of you here clain that no one of consequence ever reads the message board anyway.

 

Gio in Denver

http://www.angelfire.com/co3/massagebygio

[Boston Guy]

RE: Francisco Franko is still dead

 

Hmmm... not sure where your anger is coming from.

 

The issue of going to the authorities has nothing to do with the availability of the police but rather everything to do with the willingness of most clients to have a conversation with the police that begins "I hired this escort and ...".

 

BG

[TightBodyTouch]

RE: Francisco Franko is still dead

 

>Hmmm... not sure where your anger is coming from.

 

Shouldn't everyone be angry with relentless stupidity? The men coming to this site or any like it are not novice lovers. No one told me that this is site represents an opportunity to carefully educate grown men on gay relationships and sex. Rather, it exists as a discussion of escorting practices. If you need to be taught how to roll on a condom, then back up a bit before finding your way to a site like this.

 

>

>The issue of going to the authorities has nothing to do with

>the availability of the police

 

Heard of sarcasm?

 

but rather everything to do

>with the willingness of most clients to have a conversation

>with the police that begins "I hired this escort and ...".

 

If an individual's desire to care for their life doesn't far out-weigh their inhibition to go to the authorities, then it very well should. Whenever a person has been wronged, in any way, by another person doesn't he instinctively want to confront the action with one of his own? I threw someone out of my home last week for trying to bareback me. No more chances for him, no exceptions.

 

If I had been the client and he had tried to bareback me then I would have throw him off of me just the same and then I wouldn't have paid him. Then I would have no reason for regret and I wouldn't have to worry for myself. I would also accept the responsibilty to go the authorites myself and report such a thing. And if I didn't have the balls to call the police on someone, then I would have no business hiring someone to lick them.

[giovoni]

RE: Francisco Franko is still dead

 

Oh come on if you think that's anger then I wonder if anyone has ever properly been angry with you.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that it is ONLY up to you to make sure people have condoms on. And that people shouldn't need these discussions to know that.

 

As for the police you don't have to preface the report with 'I hired this escort' If you've mastered the deception of hiring them in the first place while also leading a life in which that fact would not be welcome then you've learned enough to say 'I had an encounter with someone who assaulted me' Even if you just have the escort arrested and then drop the complaint you'll make him think twice about any misstep in the future.

 

That would again bring me to the review section of the site. It lends itself perfectly to clients writing down their experiences with escorts be those experiences on the one hand good or on the other hand bad. You may even be able to advance the argument that THAT is why the reviews were instituted in the first place.

 

Gio in Denver

http://www.angelfire.com/co3/massagebygio

[woodlawn]

RE: Francisco Franko is still dead

 

>>Hmmm... not sure where your anger is coming from.

>

>Shouldn't everyone be angry with relentless stupidity?

 

 

What makes me angry are people like you who blame an innocent party for the fact that someone else deliberately injures him. If someone goes for a walk late at night and gets mugged, do you blame him for not staying in at such a late hour? Assuming ncm's account that started this thread is true, the client in this case did nothing wrong. I find it sickening -- but typical -- that several escorts have twisted this situation around so that the injured party is now the one who gets the blame.

 

The men

>coming to this site or any like it are not novice lovers. No

>one told me that this is site represents an opportunity to

>carefully educate grown men on gay relationships and sex.

 

If no one has told you that in the past, someone, actually a couple of people, are telling you now. And both of us (myself and BG) have been around this site long enough to know. Yes, some of the men coming to this site are novices, at least when it comes to sex with men. Yes, some who come here are grown men who have never been with another man and are seeking information on gay relationships and sex. Is there some part of that you don't understand?

 

 

>Rather, it exists as a discussion of escorting practices. If

>you need to be taught how to roll on a condom, then back up a

>bit before finding your way to a site like this.

 

 

Back up to where? For some of the men who come here, escorts represent the only opportunity they have for man-to-man sex, and this site is the only place they've found where they can obtain information on the subject without revealing anything about themselves. I find it hard to believe that anyone familiar with this site doesn't know that.

 

 

>but rather everything to do

>>with the willingness of most clients to have a conversation

>>with the police that begins "I hired this escort and ...".

 

>If an individual's desire to care for their life doesn't far

>out-weigh their inhibition to go to the authorities, then it

>very well should.

 

That is a ridiculous statement. Many clients are married -- just ask Rick Munroe, who has repeatedly told us that he finds married men "fucking hot." Suppose such a client is unwillingly barebacked by an escort. Why don't you explain to us what he has to gain by going to the cops about it? What he has to lose is so obvious that it needs no explanation.

 

>And if I didn't have the balls to call the police on

>someone, then I would have no business hiring someone to lick

>them.

 

"No business" is right. Just ask any veteran escort who posts here how many clients he would have if everyone who doesn't want his use of escorts to become public knowledge is taken off the client list. "No business" is just about what would be left. Someday you must pay a visit to the real world. It has many surprises in store for you.

[Uncle Bill]

RE: Francisco Franko is still dead

 

TJ --

 

You obviously don't have a clue about what this site is about or why various people come to it. Your assumptions are completely invalid, which you'd know if you had been here longer. I would have thought that your partner would be more knowledgeable about those things given that he has been a member here quite a bit longer than you, but I'm left to guess that he either hasn't paid attention, doesn't care, or the issue is hitting too close to home for him (very possibly as a victim of this kind of activity, in which case I can at least understand some of his, and your, anger).

 

This point isn't the only thing that you appear clueless about, but many of us are very closeted, and, as a result, many are not very experienced in being with men or with hiring, such as the client that was involved in the event being discussed. (Many come across this site by searching the Internet -- not very difficult, and it's a very welcome find for most as well.) For those people (including me), an assault of this kind would not prompt them to contact the police because of the ramifications to their own lives (yes, most of us would still get tested for STD's, but a police report won't reverse what has happened, and I for one am not willing to expose myself to the kind of scrutiny, including possible court testimony, that would be involved).

 

If it happened to me (whether I was able to stop the guy or not), I'd like to think that I'd publish all the details (including the guy's name) in the MC as well as posting a review. However, to be honest, I'm not sure I would since the escorts I see often know a lot about me by the time we're through, and I'd be concerned about the escort using that information to severely disrupt my life in retribution for being identified. Yes, that's extremely selfish, but it's also honest. I'm not saying that I wouldn't "name names", but that I just don't know for sure. (No, I'm not going to be totally secretive with the escorts I see from now on -- if I have to do that, it takes a lot of the personal element out of the meeting, in which case I might as well stick with using my right hand to satisfy my urges.)

 

In any case, you two Denver guys don't have to worry about ever accidentally agreeing to meet with me. Your posts will keep me away on my own. BTW, it's Francisco "Franco", not "Franko" -- an understandable mistake as you've probably never heard of him except on Saturday Night Live re-runs.

 

Ok, now that I've opened myself up to more attacks, I'll go for now.

[giovoni]

RE: Francisco Franko is still dead

 

No one here is saying the escort was an honorable blameless fellow. It is unfair of you to characterize that part of the debate as such. What is being said is that since MANY people aren't honorable decent fellows people should always check everytime someone fucks them.

 

The discussion of the police or other autorities simply illustrates that there are far better ways to deal with people who bareback you without your knowledge besides 'I have this friend......' like police, and especially in this case, reviews. This ongoing discussion has done nothing but gained a couple of enemies for those of us who think reaching around and checking for a condom every time you have receptive anal intercourse should become a part of everyones 'common sense'

 

Gio in Denver

http://www.angelfire.com/co3/massagebygio

[woodlawn]

RE: Francisco Franko is still dead

 

>No one here is saying the escort was an honorable blameless

>fellow. It is unfair of you to characterize that part of the

>debate as such. What is being said is that since MANY people

>aren't honorable decent fellows people should always check

>everytime someone fucks them.

 

You are the one who is being unfair. Your previous comments and those of your pal in Denver veritably ooze contempt for someone who, if we are being given a truthful account, is guilty of nothing other than trusting an escort. We should all be angry at his stupidity, isn't that what your friend said? Am I making that up?

 

>The discussion of the police or other autorities simply

>illustrates that there are far better ways to deal with people

>who bareback you without your knowledge besides 'I have this

>friend......' like police,

 

In regard to the police, I refer you to the response you got from Uncle Bill, who has explained the situation far more eloquently than I could. I agree completely with his assessment of you and your partner's comments here.

 

 

>and especially in this case,

>reviews.

 

On the subject of reviews, I refer you to KY TOP, a client who recently attempted to alert the board about an escort who penetrated him and did so bareback, both without his permission. If you have a chat with him, you will learn that there are some major obstacles in the way of anyone who tried to do what you suggest.

 

 

>This ongoing discussion has done nothing but gained a

>couple of enemies for those of us who think reaching around

>and checking for a condom every time you have receptive anal

>intercourse should become a part of everyones 'common sense'

 

If you have aroused any enmity it is due to the insensitivity of your remarks about an innocent person and about many of the people who visit this site.