Is Dating an Escort Advisable?

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

RE: An Escort Answers

 

>I'll take you up on it. Wonder if energetic Antoine is still

>at Taboo?

>

 

Why yes he is! As late as last weekend anyway. :7

[tedbear]

RE: An Escort Answers

 

Ky--I'm also sorry to hear about your breakup. You two seemed so happy together during the Chicago Hooville dinner. :-(

[KY_TOP]

RE: An Escort Answers

 

>Ky--I'm also sorry to hear about your breakup. You two seemed

>so happy together during the Chicago Hooville dinner. :-(

 

Hey Tedbear, don't feel sorry. I have some awesome memories and good times with a guy that is still very dear to my heart. I'm Thankful for what time we had. Plus it was more of parting than a breakup.

 

Life is too short and we must all make the best of it.

[tedbear]

RE: An Escort Answers

 

I'm glad that's the way it worked out for the both of you, then. Hope to see you next time you're in town.

[buckguy]

Listen to your head not your heart (actually you're heart doesn't seem in this either). It sounds like you're not ready for this and it simply may not be something you can deal with. If he had to come up with 10 different reasons how it could work, I'd guess you had 10 reasons (some unspoken) why it might not.

 

Others have noted that gay LTRs are more likely to be non-monoganous than straight relationships. This may be true; however, non-monogamous relationships seem to fail for the same reasons, gay or straight: one partner gets jealous because the other partner has more outside partners or more outside sex, one partner is more enthusiatic or comfortable with the arrangement than the other; the non-mongamy was really one partners idea and the other is too much of wimp to set limits or too desperate to end the relationship; one partner (or both) lies about their outside activities. There's also something largely unspoken here--a stigma about escorting. I know many gay men who are surprisingly judgmental about whether others' hire and there are many barely spoken concerns about disease, the "morality" of the profession, etc. You haven't been that clear about all your concerns, so I suspect that it may be more than just jealousy that's an issue here. This is likely to be a big hurdle for most guys and you have to be willing to talk frankly about it--if not, you have to accept that it might not be in the cards.

 

If I'm honest with myself, I know that I'd be a little shocked and surprised if I guy I dated said he was an escort. I wouldn't know what to do, initially, and I'd really have to think through where this was going (if you're the type to go from a few dates to picking out wall sconces, this is probably the wrong guy for you to date) and what I really felt. That this guy waited to tell you doesn't concern me--you don't get a complete picture of anyone on a first date. OTOH, I'm a bit surprised he didn't want to know who you'd hired. In his place, I'd want to know because it would speak volumes about your preferences, etc. that wouldn't come up otherwise. He may have some "shame" concerns of his own or, if he hasn't been doing this long, he may still be getting used to it as an occupation.

[nice guy]

Hello all you escorts and escort-lovers. I wanted to provide an update on my original posting to let you know that my burgeoning relationship with an escort, which I described here only one month ago, has ended. I appreciated all your advice -- your responses were pretty much evenly split.

 

I did my utmost to not let it bother me that he was seeing clients during our relationship, and surprising even myself, I think I succeeded quite well in that area. I was not comfortable enough with it to want to read his reviews, mind you, but I never pressured him to quit and we never argued about it.

 

We were already facing the usual challenges every relationship faces, especially a long-distance one. But the final straw for me was last weekend when I flew to visit him. After arriving, he claimed that his best client just requested an overnight session tonight and was willing to pay a hefty premium due to the last minute nature of his request (and how my friend already had plans with me!). My friend asked me if I minded if he took the session. Of course I minded! But did I say so? No. The fact that he even considered accepting it when we had existing plans told me what his priorities were and always would be. "But the money is so good, what I normally get a month!" was his justification.

 

With the session being at my friend's apartment, I was relegated to getting a hotel and spending the night by myself during the holiday weekend. I'd blown off my family and elected to be with him for the holiday, so you can imagine my remorse and disappointment of having to spend it in a cheap hotel alone. I flew back home in the morning without telling him and broke it off. He is angry for my not telling him before he accepted the session about how I really felt. I don't blame him for that -- but the extent of my hurt and anger didn't sink in until I got to the hotel and began thinking about it. Emails are being exchanged and we've attempted to reconcile. But I'd be fooling myself if I thought I could deal with our contrasting lifestyles. Happy New Year everyone! Mine isn't at the moment, but I'll try.

[Rod Hagen]

What a shitty thing to do to someone. Sorry it happened to you.

 

It's not difficult to balance escorting and a relationship, I've been doing it for the five years I've been an escort (and he's not). The most important thing is not to pull junk like that. Sucks, sorry.

[Boston Guy]

Echoing Rod, that sucks and I'm sorry it happened to you. Things like this suck especially at the holidays when we have higher-than-normal expectations.

 

From a distance, it's easy to see how both of you could feel wronged here: he blew you and your plans off -- at the holidays -- in favor of a client; and you weren't completely honest with him, even if you weren't totally sure how you felt when the discussion was held.

 

From my point of view, leaving town early without even telling him seems pretty childish. Sure, you were hurt and disappointed, but that comes with this thing we call life. It's usually better to pick yourself up and make things good again instead of feeling sorry for yourself and, essentially, running away. It's really easy to see how disappointed you are. But I hope you can also see that this thing is a really big deal precisely because you've chosen to make it a really big deal.

 

Let's unwind it another way:

 

1. You arrive in town, full of expectations for the holidays.

2. He tells you that his best client just called, wants an overnight and is willing to pay a large premium ("As much as I'd normally make in a month!")

3. You say "Well, I'd really love to spend the night with you. But your career is also important and I know this is a lot of money for you. Go, have a good time. I'll book a hotel and tomorrow we'll make up for it with an especially great time together. Just know that I really like you and I'm not going anyplace and you can count on me."

 

What would you have done if the guy you were seeing was a doctor and, when you got to his city, there was an emergency and he had to go spend the night at the hospital? Or if he was a police officer and was called in suddenly to work an overnight shift? Or if he was a plumber and the freezing temps had caused a large pipe to burst at one of his most important client's buildings and he really had to go immediately to work overnight repairing the plumbing? In these scenarios, would you have gotten upset and simply left town without talking to him? Somehow, I think you would have seen these situations differently.

 

I think the real issue here is that you are not truly comfortable with the way he makes his money. You aren't comfortable with the idea that he's with someone else when he was going to be with you. Plain and simple, you didn't see this as a job-related emergency (my best customer needs me) or even a job-related opportunity (it's a lot of money). Instead, you were jealous that he'd be spending your time with someone else.

 

It's really understandable that you felt this way -- I might have, too -- especially given that it was a holiday, you had plans and you had traveled a long way. It all sucks.

 

But, love can be difficult to find and it often isn't found in the most convenient of places. If what you have with this guy is potentially very good and potentially important to you, you have to be more understanding about the realities of what he does. Understanding in truth and in deed, not just in words. Otherwise, you're bound for sorrow in this relationship.

 

Sorry to say it, but I think you blew a real opportunity to show this guy what you're really made of. Or, alternatively, you could have simply been honest and said "this is going to really piss me off. I've traveled a long way to see you and this is the holiday. Explain to your client that you have an important prior commitment." But you didn't even do that.

 

So, as I'm kind of thinking this out loud here as I write this, I'm coming to the conclusion that I think you are the one most at fault in this situation. First, because you acted childishly and left town without communicating with him; second, because you didn't communicate your feelings honestly when he asked you how you felt about it; and third, because you really didn't/don't accept what he does and you turned his job requirement/opportunity into something personal to yourself and then, feeling sorry for yourself, began to pout about it.

 

You sound like a decent guy and I'm being honest with you. I think you blew it. If you like this guy, I think you should apologize and offer to do something nice to make up for it. It would be nice if he apologized, too, but it was work for him and, if I were seeing a doctor, I wouldn't expect too much of an apology for having to go into work at the last minute on a holiday. Instead, it would be more of a "jeez, this sucks" kind of thing. Not treating an escort in the same way means you don't see his job/career with the same level of respect as if he were a doctor or policeman or plumber. And, if that's true, you have more fundamental questions to deal with than just being left alone on a holiday night.

 

Sorry again that this happened. I'm sure it wasn't fun for you, especially on a night with high expections. The big question now is, looking at it like an adult and acting like an adult, what do you now and where do you want this relationship to go?

 

BG

 

PS to all of the clients reading this: this is a good example of client who acted in a literally self-centered way to get something he wanted for himself. He asked an escort he must see frequently -- he's the escort's best client -- to see him at the last minute on a holiday. He offered a bunch of extra money, which might have seemed to him like a nice thing to do, but was in reality a power play. He was trying to put the escort into a situation where he couldn't say no. Without reading the client's mind, my suspicion is that he wasn't all too concerned about the impact of his offer (demand?) on the escort. He probably wasn't wondering if the escort had plans, if this would impact the escort's personal life or even piss off or disappoint the escort's boyfriend. In some ways, he put the escort in a very uncomfortable position. True, it's up to the escort to be honest with clients and communicate these things. But if the age difference and wealth difference are significant enough, that can be difficult for the escort. So when suddenly dangling extra money in front of an escort you like in order to induce him to do something at the last minute, give at least a little thought to the consequences you might be wreaking on the guy's personal life. It all comes down to really, in truth, respecting the various people that you populate your life with.

[nice guy]

While I appreciate the logic you used trying to evaluate my situation, your final conclusion that I was the one at fault is ridiculous. My reaction was worse than his action? That's what you're saying. He changed his plans at the last minute, didn't have the balls to tell a client that he couldn't fuck him tonight...that it would have to wait one more night, or just a matter of hours?! He didn't consider how I changed my holiday plans to be with HIM, hurting my family's feelings as it was the first Christmas in my LIFE that I did not spend it with my family. After I changed my plans around to be with him....which is not something I pushed on him....he was the one pressuring me for it so HE wouldn't be alone on Christmas. Then HE changes his plans and leaves me in the lurch for money? I would have given him the amount of money he made that night as a gift, and I have already, if he would have foregone that meeting.

 

I didn't tell him that I wanted him to take the session. I merely told him to do what he felt he had to do. At the time I was too stunned at the turn of events to get mad about it. My fault is this: when he asked if I was okay with it, I said, "I guess so." He didn't press but I knew he saw my reaction and chose to disregard it. Still, I suppose if I wasn't so shellshocked, I should have made it an issue. I didn't think about "him choosing a client over me"....I'm past that.

 

I also don't think your analogy to a doctor, policeman or plumber is appropriate. The first two, in particular, are careers where you're "on call" and KNOW you're on call because there are lifes on the line. My first boyfriend was a doctor and I was always cool when those situations arose. In this case, no human life was on the line here...only sex. That is no different from a client calling me for financial consulting (for which I have my own business) on Christmas Day and wanting it done that day...I would tell him "no" but I'll get to it tomorrow, etc. No one is going to die if it didn't get done on Christmas. Plus, I wouldn't want to keep a client that had total disregard for one's personal life on what is arguably the most important day of the year for family gatherings and being with loved ones.

 

I don't see that I was more at fault here! He started it! (I threw that in for humor). How was I to know another overnight session wouldn't have come up the next night? As he changed his plans that night, why couldn't I change my plans too and decide to fly home and to my family to salvage some of the Christmas spirit and find refuge among my loved ones...who would NEVER leave me out in the cold like he did?!

[Boston Guy]

Nice Guy:

 

It isn't my intention here to try to make you feel worse about this. But when you posted what happened, I assumed you wanted responses from us... and wanted us to be honest with you.

 

I still think you're looking at this from pretty much your own point of view -- understandable but not necessarily optimum if your goal is to do anything other than walk away from the relationship. At the end of your last post, you said you had attempted to reconcile, so I assume you are at least considering that. If so, I think it's worth looking at the situation as much as possible from the point of view of a neutral observer.

 

Without rehashing all of my previous post, perhaps you should ask yourself what he would have done if you had said "No, I don't want you to take this call tonight. It's important to me to be together." If you had done that, would he have stayed with you? If the answer to that question is yes, then, shell-shocked or not, you really are to blame for at least some of this. You verbally give him permission to do what he did (you said "I guess so" when he asked you) and then got mad that he did what he asked your permission to do. We can't expect people -- especially boyfriends in relatively new relationships -- to be mindreaders. If it wasn't ok, you should have said so. Then you turned it into an enormous deal (It's the first Christmas you've ever been away from your family), got madder, and left town without telling him. From the point of view of a neutral outsider, there's a lot about what you did that wouldn't have been recommended by most people if asked ahead of time.

 

Certainly, if had asked me ahead of time if he should take the call, I would have said "No, not if you're really serious about this relationship with this person who just left his family to join you" -- unless there were extenuating circumstances (for example, perhaps he really needs the money?).

 

But I go back to my original point that I think this really is about how you view his choice of employment. Some of the language and examples you have used in your posts lead one to that conclusion.

 

For example, regarding my analogy to the doctor, policeman and plumber. You dismiss the analogy, partly because the first two are careers where you know you are on call and lives are at stake. Well, aren't escorts pretty much ALWAYS on call? And while lives may not be stake, your friend's current career and income are probably just as important to him as any of ours are to us. In fact, an escort has absolutely no assurance of future income and no job security. We should probably be even more sympathetic to escorts and other self-employed people when they accept money-making opportunities, since they don't have the luxury of a regular paycheck.

 

Then you said "Plus, I wouldn't want to keep a client that had total disregard for one's personal life on what is arguably the most important day of the year for family gatherings and being with loved ones." That's all well and good for you to say. But this was your friend's most important client. Are you so certain that your friend can just blithely give up his most important source of income? Most escorts I know aren't independently wealthy and are escorting because they need the money. Your statements make it seem like you really are dismissing what he does as being reasonably unimportant. I doubt very much that he feels the same way about it. Does he dismiss what you do as being unimportant?

 

Finally, you say: "I don't see that I was more at fault here! He started it! (I threw that in for humor). How was I to know another overnight session wouldn't have come up the next night? As he changed his plans that night, why couldn't I change my plans too and decide to fly home and to my family to salvage some of the Christmas spirit and find refuge among my loved ones...who would NEVER leave me out in the cold like he did?!"

 

1. How would he know that another overnight session WOULD come up. He already told you that the money was as much as he'd normally make in a month. That tells me his situation is such that the money aspect of this is very important to him, if not to you.

 

2. Why couldn't you change your plans and go home? You could and did. But did you give him the luxury of telling you to go or not go, the way he gave you the opportunity to okay whether he took the call or not?

 

Sorry, others may see this really differently. But I still come back to the point where I think he handled a difficult situation pretty maturely -- he did ask you if it was ok and he explained why it was important to him, both in terms of the money and in terms of satisfying his most important client -- and you reacted in an understandable but rather self-pitying manner. And your comments make me think that you don't value his job very highly, which would seem to me to be a potentially looming obstacle should you in fact reconcile and start up the relationship again.

 

I know this must be annoying to here, if for no other reason than that you're already upset about what happened and already upset about losing the relationship (and you must at least be considering your own culpability here). So having someone tell you what I'm telling you must be aggravating as hell. But if you really do want to reconcile with this guy, I'd lower my ego, go back and apologize for running out of town and for getting upset with him for doing something you had told him was ok and for expecting him to read your mind and see that, in fact, it wasn't ok.

 

However you want it to work out, I hope that's how it does turn out. And I hope that 2005 ends up on a much higher note for you than it began.

 

Regards,

BG

[gayray]

BG,

 

(I have to make a number of assumptions and I do not know the escorts side of the story)

 

While you have some valid points about the way nice_guy reacted, I have to side with nice_guy. I too would have been stunned if someone treated me like this.

 

Put yourself in his shoes. He comes over to NYC from another city to spend a special time with his boyfriend. The bf is tempted by an astronomical amount of money. (BTW, don’t put the blame on the client. He had the money and the nerves to make an indecent proposal. The escort is the one who gave in to the temptation). The very fact that he seriously chose it over spending the night with his bf (and mind you this was still a young fragile relationship that was in need of nurturing) already disqualifies him in my eyes.

 

Your analogy with the doctor etc does not hold up to scrutiny. A doctor who is on call has people who depend on him for their lives. An escort's “on call” emergency is a horny client! The doctor HAS NO CHOICE but to drop everything and go - the escort could have refused. And I truly doubt that the escort would starve. If you are good (and I assume this guy has lots of good reviews), and have clients willing to spend a fortune on you, then you will earn enough even if you refuse a client.

 

The escort could have offered so many compromises to create a win-win situation. For example he could have said that he was only willing to do a 3 hour session (best scheduled for the next day). He could have at least demanded that the client get his own hotel room (given how desperate he was and how much he was willing to spend) and let nice_guy stay in his apartment as opposed to booting him out. Or given that he was making sooooo much money, he could have promised to make up for it and to take nice_guy to one of NYC’s top restaurants the next day or to a weekend in Miami? Do you get my point?

 

He was blinded by the money and not for one second did he think about nice_guy. For me that is someone who lacks emotional intelligence and maturity. There seem to be many escorts who can balance their personal and professional lives - this one seems not to be one of them.

[Boston Guy]

>While you have some valid points about the way nice_guy

>reacted, I have to side with nice_guy. I too would have been

>stunned if someone treated me like this.

>

 

I would have been as well and, without the benefit of hindsight, I'm not sure how I would have reacted. Honestly and with open communication I would hope but probably with a lot of disappointment. As I've said above, it's easy to understand why Nice Guy was really disappointed.

 

>Put yourself in his shoes. He comes over to NYC from another

>city to spend a special time with his boyfriend. The bf is

>tempted by an astronomical amount of money. (BTW, don’t put

>the blame on the client. He had the money and the nerves to

>make an indecent proposal. The escort is the one who gave in

>to the temptation). The very fact that he seriously chose it

>over spending the night with his bf (and mind you this was

>still a young fragile relationship that was in need of

>nurturing) already disqualifies him in my eyes.

>

 

Well, it wouldn't necessarily disqualify him in my eyes. The sticking point for me is that he asked Nice Guy if it was ok to take the call and Nice Guy said yes. If Nice Guy had said no, all of this might have been moot and Nice Guy might have a Nice Time.

 

 

>Your analogy with the doctor etc does not hold up to scrutiny.

>A doctor who is on call has people who depend on him for their

>lives. An escort's “on call” emergency is a horny client! The

>doctor HAS NO CHOICE but to drop everything and go - the

>escort could have refused. And I truly doubt that the escort

>would starve. If you are good (and I assume this guy has lots

>of good reviews), and have clients willing to spend a fortune

>on you, then you will earn enough even if you refuse a

>client.

>

 

Yes, but you and I have already admitted that we don't know anything about the escort or his situation and have to go on assumptions. The kid could have been broke for all we know -- or simply a money-grubbing son-of-a-bitch. My money is on his needing the funds.

 

>The escort could have offered so many compromises to create a

>win-win situation. For example he could have said that he was

>only willing to do a 3 hour session (best scheduled for the

>next day). He could have at least demanded that the client get

>his own hotel room (given how desperate he was and how much he

>was willing to spend) and let nice_guy stay in his apartment

>as opposed to booting him out. Or given that he was making

>sooooo much money, he could have promised to make up for it

>and to take nice_guy to one of NYC’s top restaurants the next

>day or to a weekend in Miami? Do you get my point?

 

I do absolutely get your point. None of this was optimum and I do rather blame the client for the misery he has caused. The escort could have tried to find a win-win-win way out of this. And who knows? Perhaps he did have a really special surprise planned for Nice Guy on the next day, only to find that Nice Guy had skipped town without talking to him. Do you get my point as well?

 

>

>He was blinded by the money and not for one second did he

>think about nice_guy.

 

Jeez, I don't think the facts as we know them support that conclusion. He asked Nice Guy for permission to go, which means he was most likely going to refuse the call if Nice Guy said "No, don't go." Even offering to turn down a substantial amount of income if your boyfriend says to doesn't sound at all to me like someone who was "blinded by the money" and not "for one second" thinking about his boyfriend.

 

>For me that is someone who lacks

>emotional intelligence and maturity. There seem to be many

>escorts who can balance their personal and professional lives

>- this one seems not to be one of them.

>

 

Perhaps. Who knows? But I guess I've been assuming that Nice Guy is a bit older and has been around the block a little and should know by now how to keep situations from blowing up into Great Big Things... and how to communicate openly and honestly with one's boyfriend. Leaving town without notice doesn't seem to fit into that scheme.

 

None of this unraveled the way I'd have preferred to see it go and it sounds like two of the three people involved got hurt. That's a shame and even more unfortunate because better communication might have saved a lot of grief.

 

And others may well agree more with you than me. I'm just telling it the way I see it.

 

BG

[KY_TOP]

I wish you well and sorry it didn't work out for you. I re-read my original comment to you (#11) and unfortunately some of my comments came true. But you should be glad that you gave it your best shot and be glad for the good times you had together. Relationships are always a 2 way street and sometimes those streets fork and go different directions. If you jointly made plans for the Holiday and he felt that seeing his client was more important than you I cannot blame you for your reaction. Yes maybe in hindsight leaving without telling him may have seemed wrong but you were (and still are) hurt. You should not have had to tell him you wanted to spend the time with him when he mentioned the client. If your travel to just spend the Holiday with him, and putting him before your family, didn't say that to him then he just didn't get the picture. Unfortunately you found out where you placed in his life and I can completely understand your feelings. Won't go into my personal experience but believe me I can understand your feelings. Now just concentrate on trying to get past it and on with your life. It will be hard, some days better than others but it is a day by day process. Good Luck and don't get bitter from the experience. Sometimes Love is not so much fun. Take Care of yourself.

[woodlawn]

RE: Weasel Out

 

BG, I'm afraid I must agree with nice guy that your attempt to blame him for what happened is utterly ridiculous. This post is well below your usual standards and seems an example of your often ill-concealed desire to lecture people on how they should behave.

 

 

>From my point of view, leaving town early without even telling

>him seems pretty childish. Sure, you were hurt and

>disappointed, but that comes with this thing we call life.

 

How easy it is to trivialize the feelings of others! So what if his feelings were badly hurt? He should just pretend the whole thing never happened. Right?

 

 

>What would you have done if the guy you were seeing was a

>doctor and, when you got to his city, there was an emergency

>and he had to go spend the night at the hospital? Or if he

>was a police officer and was called in suddenly to work an

>overnight shift?

 

> Somehow, I think you would have

>seen these situations differently.

 

I don't need to comment at length on how absurd it is to compare the work of a doctor or policeman asked to work in an emergency with that of an escort whose only emergency is a client's urgent desire to get his rocks off.

 

>But, love can be difficult to find and it often isn't found in

>the most convenient of places.

 

And it's pretty obvious that nice guy hasn't found someone who loves him in this situation. Love means that the lover's happiness is more important to you than your own. You don't blow off someone you love for a "professional opportunity," if that term can really be applied to an escort.

 

>You sound like a decent guy and I'm being honest with you. I

>think you blew it.

 

Utterly ridiculous. If the escort really cared for nice guy he wouldn't have been so selfish as to put nice guy in a position in which he had to choose between giving up the time he had arranged to spend with the escort or denying the escort a chance to make some dough. A real mensch would have spared nice guy's feelings and simply told the client "No" without even mentioning it to nice guy. Obviously the escort isn't into menschkeit.

 

 

> Not treating an escort in the same way means

>you don't see his job/career with the same level of respect as

>if he were a doctor or policeman or plumber.

 

And how would that distinguish nice guy from the vast majority of our fellow citizens?

 

 

>PS to all of the clients reading this: this is a good example

>of client who acted in a literally self-centered way to get

>something he wanted for himself. He asked an escort he must

>see frequently -- he's the escort's best client -- to see him

>at the last minute on a holiday. He offered a bunch of extra

>money, which might have seemed to him like a nice thing to do,

>but was in reality a power play. He was trying to put the

>escort into a situation where he couldn't say no.

 

Again, how ridiculous can you get? How would the client even know that the escort had other plans? Do you think the escort is indiscreet enough to tell him all about his personal life?

 

You guys who keep demanding that the rest of us respect escorts really need to make up your minds whether you are serious about that or not. It seems to me that when you insist an escort doesn't have the ability to do the decent thing by turning down some money in order to keep a commitment to the man he supposedly cares about, you are painting a picture of someone who doesn't deserve one scintilla of respect. A mensch doesn't try to weasel out of a commitment he made to someone he cares for by pressuring that person to give him permission to weasel out. That is exactly what happened here.

[Rick Munroe]

RE: Weasel Out

 

>A real mensch would have spared

>nice guy's feelings

>Obviously the escort isn't

>into menschkeit.

 

OMG, I just realized who woodlawn is. I'd recognize that style of speaking anywhere. Grandma Shirley, is that you??! :o

[Boston Guy]

RE: Weasel Out

 

Woodlawn,

 

As usual, I value your opinion and I think many more will agree with you than me. I just see it differently and perhaps the difference lies in how one sees what the escort does for work.

 

On a fundamental level, is it something that can be respected? Is it important? Is it important to the escort? Is it a valid career choice? How does it compare with, say, teaching? Or advertising? Or driving a taxi? Or painting (art, not walls) for a living?

 

If someone is legitimately trying to have a relationship with an escort, I don't see how that can be possible without first respecting the life choices that person has made and recognizing that the escort's job may well be every bit as important to him as anybody else's job. If you can't respect what an escort does, I just don't see how a real, honest, loving relationship is possible.

 

For some, it may be very difficult to get to a point of really respecting an escort's choices. But, for those people, I'd suggest trying to have a relationship with an escort is probably going to be a sub-optimum choice.

 

In the case at hand, Nice Guy was trying to respect his escort friend's work. But, in the end, I'm not sure he really did, including its meaning to the escort in question (including as a source of income). If he did really value it, he might have approached this situation differently.

 

Escorting is fraught with all kinds of baggage for both the escort and the client, baggage that comes from society, from our upbringings, and from the illegal nature of the transactions. Many guys feel really bad or guilty about hiring escorts, which adds even other baggage into the emotional stew (pardon the mixed metaphor).

 

What I did was try to view it as two people of equal stature in a relationship where one had a job situation pop up that was urgent, not likely to be repeated, represented an opportunity to make a sudden small windfall and involved pleasing an important client. From that point of view, I asked myself if both people acted in what seemed to me to be legit ways. And, having done so, I found myself coming to the surprising conclusion that Nice Guy bore some of the guilt for this. That was not where I began, at all. My first reaction was to condemn the escort's actions. And part of me still feels that way; it's a very human reaction and I feel very bad that Nice Guy was hurt in this way. But no one has wondered if the escort was also hurt by Nice Guy just leaving without any communication. What plans had the escort made for the next day? What had he sacrificed on his end? We don't have any of those facts. The only facts we do have come from Nice Guy and I think he should have been more upfront with his feelings, more honest in his communication, and stuck around to discuss it in person the next day.

 

But I think more people will end up agreeing with you on this than me. That's ok; that's what makes the world go round.

 

BG

 

PS: Regarding my original PS, it was my understanding from what Nice Guy wrote that the client who hired his escort friend WAS aware of the escort's plans for the holiday night and added the premium pay in light of this. If I read it correctly, he added the bonus as an incentive to induce the escort to leave his boyfriend on a holiday night. Regardless of the escort's responsibility to act on his end, I see this as a particularly slimy way for a client to act and I hope he reads this.

[Guest arbee]

RE: Weasel Out

 

Just skimmed the thread.

 

My question: Does money trump love? (Well, the word "love" was never used (I think) in the described situation...) If the word is appropriate or perceived so in this case, then I guess the answer is yes, money does trump love... and that's worrisome.

[woodlawn]

RE: Weasel Out

 

>As usual, I value your opinion and I think many more will

>agree with you than me.

 

Thanks, but it really doesn't matter how many think one thing and how many think another -- this isn't a legislature.

 

> I just see it differently and perhaps

>the difference lies in how one sees what the escort does for

>work.

 

>On a fundamental level, is it something that can be respected?

> Is it important? Is it important to the escort? Is it a

>valid career choice? How does it compare with, say, teaching?

> Or advertising? Or driving a taxi? Or painting (art, not

>walls) for a living?

 

I think it would be silly not to acknowledge that all occupations are not of equal importance. Whacking off some lonely rich guy is not to be compared with treating someone who is sick or policing the community's streets, as you tried to do in your earlier post.

 

Whenever clients who post here start complaining about escort prices, one or two escorts respond by pointing out that hiring an escort is a luxury and that those who can't afford it shouldn't do it. That statement is not really responsive to the question whether escort prices have any relationship to the value of the service delivered, but in itself it is true. No one is going to perish from an inability to obtain the services of an escort -- it is a luxury, not a necessity. In terms of importance I would put it about on the same level as car detailing and dog grooming. If your lover was a dog groomer and got an "urgent" call from an important client demanding that he drop everything to handle Fido's split ends, would you support his choice to do that rather than spend time with you? I'd say it says a lot about his priorities.

 

> If you can't respect

>what an escort does, I just don't see how a real, honest,

>loving relationship is possible.

 

Again, I don't see that acknowledging the reality -- that when it comes to getting someone off, there is no such thing as an emergency -- amounts to a lack of respect. It's just realism.

 

>What I did was try to view it as two people of equal stature

>in a relationship where one had a job situation pop up that

>was urgent, not likely to be repeated, represented an

>opportunity to make a sudden small windfall and involved

>pleasing an important client. From that point of view,

 

From that point of view, I continue to believe that if the escort really cared about nice guy, he would not put nice guy in the position of feeling pressured to give him permission to back out of the commitment he had made. Someone who really cared about nice guy's feelings wouldn't do that.

 

>PS: Regarding my original PS, it was my understanding from

>what Nice Guy wrote that the client who hired his escort

>friend WAS aware of the escort's plans for the holiday night

>and added the premium pay in light of this.

 

Escorts are not robots, but human beings with the ability to make choices. And having made a choice, he should not try to blame his decision on someone else.

[Boston Guy]

RE: Weasel Out

 

>>As usual, I value your opinion and I think many more will

>>agree with you than me.

>

>Thanks, but it really doesn't matter how many think one thing

>and how many think another -- this isn't a legislature.

 

Agreed. But there seems to be here, sometimes, an attitude of "if I'm right, then you're wrong", with little room for compromise or recognition of valid other opinions or options. I've come to have a great deal of respect for your opinions, even those that I don't agree with. Many issues don't come down to black and white or yes and no, this current topic included, and it's hard for any of us to claim to be right. While I believe what I have posted, you make valid points that are well worth listening to.

 

Your analysis is simply different than mine. I'd bet that both the escort and the dog groomer consider their jobs to be quite important, if only because it's how they make the money that pays their bills. But there is a difference: a dog's hair will continue to grow and will need grooming sooner or later. A horney client whose request is declined may well go someplace else or just decide to spend the money elsewhere, so the escort who postpones a session has little or no guarantee that the lost income can be recovered. This is probably most important when the lost income is substantial compared to the escort's normal income. And that doesn't address the possibility of losing your "best client" because you turned down a request that was important to him.

 

So who's to say how important a particular person's job is? Saving lives is always important and sticking people up at gunpoint shouldn't be a high priority. But to each of us, our own jobs are usually pretty damned important.

 

 

>Again, I don't see that acknowledging the reality -- that when

>it comes to getting someone off, there is no such thing as an

>emergency -- amounts to a lack of respect. It's just

>realism.

>

 

I agree it wasn't an emergency. But, given that the amount of money was evidently substantial in the eyes of the escort and not likely to be offered again a few days later -- it was a one-off sort of opportunity -- it still could have been very important to the escort. Clearly that must have been the case or he would have acted differently (one hopes).

 

 

>From that point of view, I continue to believe that if the

>escort really cared about nice guy, he would not put nice guy

>in the position of feeling pressured to give him permission to

>back out of the commitment he had made. Someone who really

>cared about nice guy's feelings wouldn't do that.

>

 

Perhaps. It would be interesting to have more facts to work with. I wonder if the escort was young and I suspect, from what we were given, that he needed the money. Not much about this was handled in a great way, but I still think Nice Guy could have handled it differently and, in so doing, finessed a bad situation into one where he came out looking like a knight in shining armor, much to the pleasure and admiration of his boyfriend. Instead, he ended up with a real mess. And, saying this, I do understand that hindsight is 20-20.

 

 

>>PS: Regarding my original PS, it was my understanding from

>>what Nice Guy wrote that the client who hired his escort

>>friend WAS aware of the escort's plans for the holiday night

>>and added the premium pay in light of this.

>

>Escorts are not robots, but human beings with the ability to

>make choices. And having made a choice, he should not try to

>blame his decision on someone else.

>

>

 

He didn't. I was the one who suggested it was a lousy thing for the client to do. He made a mess of the kid's life so he could get his rocks off. Yes, the escort could have declined the request. But the client put him in that position. Since I view clients as being generally older, wealthier, wiser and more experienced than escorts, I lay the responsibility more at the feet of the client.

 

BG

[marc anthony]

Well with the very interesting debate as to who is "at fault", I just thought I would share one of my favorite lines from one of my favorite movies... "Kramer vs. Kramer."

 

After bitching and moaning about what a terrible husband Dustin Hoffman was... Dustin's lawyer tells Meryl STreep, "Congratulations, Mrs. Kramer. YOu have just re-written matrimonial law. You are BOTH getting a divorce."

 

Bottom line... there's plenty of blame to go around and share.

 

[nice guy]

Thanks for your kind words (those that sided with me!). No, I'm kidding. You too, Boston Guy. I often am called upon in my work to act as a financial arbitrator in divorce and other corporate dissolutions. One has to be objective, especially when the people on opposite ends of the table are yelling or crying. I think you were trying to be objective too, something that is nearly impossible when you're one of the parties involved.

 

Well, I think this "Days of Our Lives" thread has helped me. Using this forum is cheaper than paying a therapist. To answer a question raised, I'm only a couple years older than the escort, although there is a large income differential. Yesterday, I was resolute in just putting this experience behind me. I didn't say that I "regret" it -- I never regret any experience in my life.

 

However, upon arriving home from work, the doorman brought out from the receiving room the ROSES that had just arrived for me, from him. My heart jumped when I saw them. The note said, "SORRY! SORRY! SORRY! Wish you would've told me to NOT take the appointment if you didn't want me to. I was surprised you said okay, and a bit disappointed you didn't try to talk me out of it. Remember, that night was only work. And I took comfort in the fact that you were so accepting of my choice, and thought of you all night. I want to use that money to take you to Hawaii or the Caribbean. Call me." The 1-800-flowers service had to attach four of those little cards to fit the entire message.

 

Maybe Boston Guy was right about how I should have told him not to go. But I still feel like I shouldn't have been put in the situation of deciding for him what he should do, which would make me seem controlling. Like Gayray said, I would have been fine with him going to meet the client for an hour or two right then, thereby accommodating both of us.

 

At this point, I'm uncertain how I feel or what I want to do. But I did shoot him an email thanking him and telling him that I need time to think about it.

 

I won't bore you with my personal life any longer. Regardless of what happened or happens from here on out, I still believe that "living is about loving" because whether you're feeling rapture, love, friendship, or a painful breakup, FEELING is what tells us we're alive.

 

Take care everyone.

[Boston Guy]

Nice Guy:

 

Thanks for a warm, generous post. I promise this will be my last in this thread. :-)

 

I'd bet odds that most of us here would tell you to go for it. Sure, he didn't act the way you wanted him to, but it's now clear he was feeling some of the very things you were feeling. Maybe the experience will actually strengthen both of you, as individuals, and as a couple.

 

His offer is generous. Live life, feel more, think less (at least at times like this). He clearly likes you, he's trying and he's thrown you a baton. Grab it!

 

My best to you,

BG

[woodlawn]

RE: Weasel Out

 

>While I believe what I have posted, you make valid points that

>are well worth listening to.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

>Your analysis is simply different than mine. I'd bet that

>both the escort and the dog groomer consider their jobs to be

>quite important,

 

I'm sure their jobs are quite important to THEM. What you seem to be missing is that when you enter into a relationship you are no longer free to consider only what is important to YOU. You are also supposed to consider the priorities of the other person.

 

 

> But there is a difference: a dog's

>hair will continue to grow and will need grooming sooner or

>later. A horney client whose request is declined may well go

>someplace else

 

> And that doesn't address the

>possibility of losing your "best client" because you turned

>down a request that was important to him.

 

A client, whether of an escort or dog groomer, can always go elsewhere if he doesn't get what he wants from one particular service provider. A service provider who turns down a client request because he has something he considers more important to do always runs the risk of losing that client. So what?

 

>So who's to say how important a particular person's job is?

>Saving lives is always important and sticking people up at

>gunpoint shouldn't be a high priority. But to each of us,

>our own jobs are usually pretty damned important.

 

I'd submit that anyone who refuses to acknowledge that saving lives is more important than whacking someone off either is being dishonest or is incredibly stupid.

 

>Perhaps. It would be interesting to have more facts to work

>with. I wonder if the escort was young and I suspect, from

>what we were given, that he needed the money.

 

I've noticed you have a tendency to try to justify anything an escort does by saying that he's "young." Developmental psychologists tell us that the individual's moral worldview is substantially formed by the time he is old enough to start elementary school. If the escort is older than that, he should be held accountable for his choices.

 

 

> Not much about

>this was handled in a great way, but I still think Nice Guy

>could have handled it differently and, in so doing, finessed a

>bad situation into one where he came out looking like a knight

>in shining armor,

 

I'd agree nice guy acted hastily after he was confronted with this problem by the escort. But only AFTER he was confronted with this problem by the escort. Had the escort behaved like a mensch in the first place, none of this would have happened.

 

I've read nice guy's latest post. It's good that the escort recognizes that he caused the problem by forcing nice guy to make a choice he shouldn't have had to make. A lot of relationships have ended when they could have continued had both parties been willing to do the work necessary to get over a rough patch. But I'd advise nice guy to consider very carefully what the odds of success are in a long-distance relationship between two gay men when one of them is constantly rushing off to have sex with other men for money.

 

 

>Yes, the escort could have declined

>the request. But the client put him in that position. Since

>I view clients as being generally older, wealthier, wiser and

>more experienced than escorts, I lay the responsibility more

>at the feet of the client.

 

Yes, I've noticed that you usually blame the client when the escort is confronted with a choice that he is perfectly free to make. And I think that infantilizing escorts in that way makes it very difficult to take seriously your admonitions that they should be treated with respect. You are trying to have it both ways.

[Guest zipperzone]

RE: Weasel Out

 

>Just skimmed the thread.

>

>My question: Does money trump love? (Well, the word "love"

>was never used (I think) in the described situation...) If

>the word is appropriate or perceived so in this case, then I

>guess the answer is yes, money does trump love... and that's

>worrisome.

>

 

Funny you used the word Trump - Got me wondering what "The Donald" would do if had to make a choice between keeping a holiday appointment with his intended vs closing a big deal which would put mega $$$ in his jeans.

 

My guess - the deal would win out - guess it would be Trump's trump!

[Guest zipperzone]

>At this point, I'm uncertain how I feel or what I want to do.

>But I did shoot him an email thanking him and telling him that

>I need time to think about it.

 

>I won't bore you with my personal life any longer. Regardless

>of what happened or happens from here on out

 

Don't you DARE keep us uninformed about the end of the story, I've been riveted for the past two days (and no, that's not the same as being screwed)

 

My only piece of advise is --- Don't let foolish pride stand in the way of what might have been. One of the saddest expression is "if only......."