friends

[VaHawk]

>However, I would never spend a weekend with an escort if I

>didn't like him for a lot more than just sex, it's that

>simple. Each progressively longer get to gether, from my

>stand point, means that this guy is very cool and "friendship

>material." BUT, It's not something I push -- but sometimes it

>just does.

 

Very, very, very well said, and point very well taken!! I appreciate you saying in such a concise, clear manner what I was trying to say in my earlier post. I would never, ever book an escort for an overnighter or longer that I did not like for more than just sex! In those situations, to me anyway, the sexual part is just a secondary bonus, as the main attraction is the person himself! My point was that you can't force or "push" as you say, the friendship part, but just have to let the course run it's natural flow and be realistic enough to admit that it is very rare that a real friendship will happen based on just on one or two or three or four encounters, but to also be honest enough to "not pretend" it's anything more than business when either party feels that it will not go beyond a business aspect after a few encounters.

[axebahia]

I agree that escorts and clients can be friends just as can employers and empoyees, masters and servants, or any other service provider and service consumer. However, are you really asking whether an escort can become a friend such that the pleasantness of the appointment continues beyond appointmemts into a freindship of sex without payment? If so, I doubt it. I have passed great times with many escorts, but I doubt very much they would be my "friend" if I continued to want sex outside. And I am sure that I would not regard them as my friend if I had to continue to pay for sex. That said, I have recently seen an escort of mine from two years ago who no longer escorts, and we are developing a "friendship" that includes sex without pay. I'll report more on this as it goes forward, however, I think this is rare, and I would not advise contracting escorts with this expectation. Enjoy the experience, and hope that for the hour, night or week or how ever long you contract for, your escort is your very best friend in the world!

[axebahia]

Oh yes, my other recent experience with this was inviting an escort weho I thought had become my friend to visit for the weekend. I paid for his airfare and picked up the tabs throughout the weekend. At the end, he presented me a bill for his services so to speak. I did not regard that as a "friendly" act, but I paid. I doubt I will call him again either as escort or friend.

[guyinsf]

It's definitely an unusual scenario and not one I would expect to be in with anyone else. We have a LONG history with each other that included living together for several years. He knows how I am with money and knows that I will not suddently become some flaky person and try to pretend it's my money. I have been pushing for us to write some quick agreement just in case I die in some unfortunate accident before I find and buy a condo. We do already have an oral agreement for how I will repay him after the purchase goes through and another agreement with respect to how to handle the interest accumulated until then.

 

>>I also recently borrowed a large sum from a friend

>(ex-lover)

>>to help me buy a house. So far we don't even have a written

>>agreement, and his money is in my bank account. We both are

>>mature and know we can trust one another.

>

>Gee, I sure hope I don't see this case on Judge Judy, like so

>many others of the same ilk! Anyone, who would loan money to

>someone without some kind of written agreement is up the creek

>if the other party decides to reneg. I'm not saying that is

>the case in your situation, but in general, this is not a good

>policy!

[guyinsf]

I think that some of us may be talking about something different. I am NOT talking about the escort relationship turning into a friendship that includes sex without payment. I am talking about continuing a commercial relationship and, in addition to that, having a friendship as well. I do NOT expect him to have sex with me for free.

 

If I invited an escort to spend the weekend with me somewhere, paid his airfare and hotel, AND wasn't clear about what my expectations were, I would assume that he would assume that I was hiring him for the weekend. Most friends don't pay for other friends to fly somewhere and then pay for everything during the entire vacation. Doing this with an escort strongly implies that you are, in fact, hiring him because your time together is already being funded entirely by you. As in all things in life, communication is defintely the key. If you want to hang out with an escort for a weekend somewhere (and not expect sex), I think it's important to make the request clear. (Such as, "I really enjoy spending time with you outside of our escort-client appointments. If I paid for your flight and meals while you're hear, would you want to tour this place with me? Of course I wouldn't expect us to sleep together because I'm not intending to pay for your companionship while we're there.")

 

>I agree that escorts and clients can be friends just as can

>employers and empoyees, masters and servants, or any other

>service provider and service consumer. However, are you

>really asking whether an escort can become a friend such that

>the pleasantness of the appointment continues beyond

>appointmemts into a freindship of sex without payment? If so,

>I doubt it. I have passed great times with many escorts, but

>I doubt very much they would be my "friend" if I continued to

>want sex outside. And I am sure that I would not regard them

>as my friend if I had to continue to pay for sex. That said,

>I have recently seen an escort of mine from two years ago who

>no longer escorts, and we are developing a "friendship" that

>includes sex without pay. I'll report more on this as it goes

>forward, however, I think this is rare, and I would not advise

>contracting escorts with this expectation. Enjoy the

>experience, and hope that for the hour, night or week or how

>ever long you contract for, your escort is your very best

>friend in the world!

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

>Only a real friend will scrub your toilet.

>

 

LOL... yes, that is a pretty good indicator, I think.

 

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

>Money is what made your meeting possible. Money will have

>strange an impact on a friendship, usually bad.

 

 

IMO money is not the issue, character is. Money is just one of several lenses that focus the character.

[Guest sebastian]

That is a very good question, or series of...

 

I have been escorting for three years now, and it is innevitable that clients get attached to you either emotionaly or simply because they like you as a person.

 

One of my first "regulars" handed me two dozen roses and told me to move in with him because he was in love. Needless to say I saw that to be a bad situation for him and broke off any and all contact in order to save him from himself.

 

On the other hand, there are some clients who I'm very good friends with and chat with online. If they need a favor or some help with something I try to help them as friends. When it comes down to the business end of it, that is just what it is, BUSINESS.

 

It can be dificult juggling the two back and forth in between both parties due to the fact that friendship can be easily mistaken for more than what it is.

 

 

Sebastian (Premier Philly)

[LovesYng]

>One of my first "regulars" handed me two dozen roses

>

 

When you get better you will have two dozen roses waiting from me, but they will be BLACK roses:*.

 

Yes Sebastian you are very strange:P (Just Kidding). Yes I think that shows good taste with any regulars you have:*. After meeting a new client and maybe seeing them two three or even four times you really get to know the client as to his likes & dislikes. But it can back fire on you also, the client could take you up on who you recommend from Premier and like the new escort better:-(. It all depends on the relationship you have with the client}(. Do me a favor friend, GET WELL and get the hell back to work:+

[axebahia]

I don't disagree entirely about communication. The question is how much is necessary. If I ask if an escort is versatile, I expect him to bottom. Some folks here say that if you want an escort to bottom you have to specify that. I don't agree, and most professional escorts who say versatile know very well what is being asked and what is expected.

 

Similarly, if I call a regular escort from another city and say "I am horny would you come if I buy the ticket.", I think that is very clear what the terms on offer are. Yes, the escort has plausible deniability, and that is why I paid, but I just don't buy that he did not know what was on offer. That's not a bad business strategy, but escorts should know that if they use "communication" as a sword rather than a shield, they may get a one-time jackpot, but they probably won't be called again by that client.

[guyinsf]

I'm still puzzled by your approach. Are you saying that if you call someone you have hired before to tell him that you are horny and want to pay to fly him to you that the "clear offer" is that he will have sex with you for free simply because you pay for the airfare and you didn't explicitly say you would pay for sex/companionship? I actually think that the implied offer here is that you WOULD pay for his "time" because (a) your sexual relationship is already based on you paying him and (b) you are clearly flying him somewhere to be with you because you are "horny." Under the circumstances I think most escorts would assume this is a booking, not an offer for a friendly get together for which they won't be paid. Can you imagine doing the same thing with someone who lives where you do? Would the offer be clear if you called a local escort, said you were horny, and said you would pay cab fare; then, when the escort arrived, you expect to have sex for free, only paying for cab fare and bottled water? Of course every escort would interpret your call as an agreement to pay his regular fee, not an offer to get a free cab ride for the pleasure of having sex with you. (Don't get me wrong -- maybe you're really sexy and some escorts you have hired decide they WANT to have sex with you for free. If this isn't your experience, however, I am suggesting that you look again at your expectations and communication.) It sounds to me like you're assuming the escort you hired lacks integrity, that he was merely trying to get a "jackpot" from you instead of acting professionally, that he doesn't care about regular, satisfied clients. Unless you're leaving details out, it sounds to me like his behavior WAS professional; nowhere do I see an indication that he is using communication as a sword. The two of you had different understandings but it isn't like his point of view requires some twisted logic to sustain it.

 

I think if you called an escort you knew and said something like, "I think you'd really like the hiking here. Would you want to spend the weekend hiking with me if I paid your airfare here and back?", then at least the offer becomes ambiguous. (In other words, you could be approaching him to be a friendly traveling companion and helping him to go somewhere you think he'd like to be because you have the means to do so, but you could also be expecting sex to occur during the weekend even though you didn't mention it.)

 

A clear offer to get together because you're horny but DON'T expect to pay is, "If I pay for you to come to me, will you have sex with me for free?" or "I'm horny and only have enough money to pay for your airfare. If I buy a ticket for you, will you come down to see me even though I don't have money to pay your fee?"

 

Back to the basics in terms of my "world view": With my escort-friend, if I contact him because I'm horny and want to have sex, we both understand that I will pay him. He doesn't have sex with me for free (but if he ever started offering that to me I would be ecstatic). If I call him to go out to eat or see a film, neither one of us expects money to change hands (other than to the restaurant or theater). In the latter case, I don't attempt to make our time together sexual -- I don't try to hold his hand in the theater, I don't try to kiss him in a manner other than a friendly greeting, etc, etc.

 

As to the versatile/bottom issue, I agree that an escort who says he is versatile should be open to bottoming. I think the issue some have raised is that they always use an enema before bottoming and they don't want to use an enema every day. I don't disagree entirely with your point, especially if you are making a last-minute appointment, but clarity never hurts: "I want to fuck you and I want you to fuck me, too" or "I'm looking to be on both the bottom and the top tonight."

 

>I don't disagree entirely about communication. The question

>is how much is necessary. If I ask if an escort is versatile,

>I expect him to bottom. Some folks here say that if you want

>an escort to bottom you have to specify that. I don't agree,

>and most professional escorts who say versatile know very well

>what is being asked and what is expected.

>

>Similarly, if I call a regular escort from another city and

>say "I am horny would you come if I buy the ticket.", I think

>that is very clear what the terms on offer are. Yes, the

>escort has plausible deniability, and that is why I paid, but

>I just don't buy that he did not know what was on offer.

>That's not a bad business strategy, but escorts should know

>that if they use "communication" as a sword rather than a

>shield, they may get a one-time jackpot, but they probably

>won't be called again by that client.

[guyinsf]

I think that it isn't uncommon for a regular client to develop a "crush" or infatuation with an escort. A level headed, mature client will be able to deal with his feelings without making a mess of the relationship with the escort. I could "fall in love" with my regular guy in a heartbeat, but I know that's not what our relationship is about. I can accept the parameters of our business relationship and friendship. I agree that you did your client a favor by ending your relationship. It sounds like his emotions took over and his brain turned off. The situation probably would have deteriorated further had you stuck around.

 

>That is a very good question, or series of...

>

>I have been escorting for three years now, and it is

>innevitable that clients get attached to you either emotionaly

>or simply because they like you as a person.

>

>One of my first "regulars" handed me two dozen roses and told

>me to move in with him because he was in love. Needless to

>say I saw that to be a bad situation for him and broke off any

>and all contact in order to save him from himself.

>

>On the other hand, there are some clients who I'm very good

>friends with and chat with online. If they need a favor or

>some help with something I try to help them as friends. When

>it comes down to the business end of it, that is just what it

>is, BUSINESS.

>

>It can be dificult juggling the two back and forth in between

>both parties due to the fact that friendship can be easily

>mistaken for more than what it is.

>

>

>Sebastian (Premier Philly)

[axebahia]

>Unless you're leaving details out, it

>sounds to me like his behavior WAS professional; nowhere do I

>see an indication that he is using communication as a sword.

>The two of you had different understandings but it isn't like

>his point of view requires some twisted logic to sustain it.

 

The additional information is that from the start I always told this escort that I do not pay for companionship, only for sex. We discussed this a lot in early interactions when he sugested I pay for "shopping" trips rather than time. In the end, we agreed on paying only for time. I also explained that I have a number of "regulars" in different locations so I would not pay for "travel" because I did not need to. In the circumstances, I undertook only to pay for travel because we exchanged calls and said we "missed" each other etc. I think we just disagree with you. For me, there is no reason to verify that a versatile escort will bottom, and here no reason to say that I was not going to pay for time. With the greatest of respect to you, I think clients who indulge escorts with either form of plausible deniability, encourage these kind of ripoffs.

[Flower]

People that think and act the way you apparently do make lawyers a lot of money, due to the trouble you get yourself in when you fail to adequately communicate.

 

In reading your posts, you seem to take the position that it's not YOUR job to eliminate ambiguities from your communication, but the other guys, as if it's a matter of pride. Whenever I deal with an escort or anyone else where there is a request for service and a negotiated or stated fee, I make sure we both understand the service and the fee -- no ambiguities. I think it stupid not to do so when it takes so little effort.

 

What's wrong with confirming that someone bottoms and that's what he means by versatile? And what is wrong with saying to the escort you flew out to you, that you expected free sex? Nothing at all, except it sounds like to me you were either embarrassed by the miserly offer you were making or wanted to capitalize on the ambiguity. The result ? You paid anyway, and you lost an escort you enjoyed being with and maybe a friend.

 

Whether it's "your responsibility" to clarify an ambiguity or not, it only makes sense to do so.

[axebahia]

>In reading your posts, you seem to take the position that it's

>not YOUR job to eliminate ambiguities from your communication,

>but the other guys, as if it's a matter of pride.

 

Did you read my lasp post? I repeat I have since the beginning of my "relationship" with this escort specified what I would pay for and what I would not. What part of that do you not understand?

[guyinsf]

With all due respect, I just re-read your previous post and am confused by it. You initially agreed that you paid only for sex, not companionship. You also agreed that you don't pay for travel but you did so on this occasion because the two of you said you missed each other.

 

So you flew this guy to you and didn't want to pay for sex? Are you implying that because this guy said he missed you, too, and that you offered to pay for the travel that he should just have assumed that you wouldn't pay for sex? Nowhere have you indicated that you told him you wouldn't pay for sex; in fact your previous post only confirms that your overall understanding is that you would pay him when you had sex with him.

 

Obviously I don't know you or the escort. I wasn't privy to your conversations. Based on what you've posted here so far, however, I cannot fathom why you would assume that the escort was flying down to have sex with you for only the cost of his airfare. As to the mutual missing of each other, perhaps he was being genuine. Again, I don't know either of you. On the other hand, perhaps he just says "sweet nothings" to his clients either because he is a flirt, he is a sweet guy, or he is manipulative. All I can say is that I have had a couple of escorts attempt to solicit a second appointment with me by saying that they "missed" me. I couldn't take either of those statements as being sincere; to me is was just salesmanship.

 

It is not uncommon for clients to fly escorts to various places for appointments for which the clients also pay. I've never heard of any escort not charging a client for their time together just because the client paid for the escorts airfare. (It's one thing if an escort is a regular traveler and happens to be heading your way; in that case I would expect the escort to cover his own airfare.) If it was common practice for clients to get free sex and a weekend of companionship for the cost of airfare, how would a full time escort make a living? I'm sure it's nice for someone to pay for your vacation, but after it's over the escort would have made no money. Too much of this and he wouldn't be able to pay his bills.

 

Finally I would say that unless an escort specifically says that he is giving you sex/companionship for free, a client should assume that the escort will expect payment. I once received a wonderful and generous gift from an escort (two days with him for the price of one, as a gift for my birthday); had he not been explicit about the fee, however, I would have assumed that he was suggesting that I hire him for two days to celebrate my birthday, not that his suggestion was a gift.

 

I'm certainly not trying to tell you you are "wrong" since you know more about your interactions with this guy than anyone else, other than the escort, does. I'm just throwing out ideas that you might want to consider.

[axebahia]

>I'm certainly not trying to tell you you are "wrong" since you

>know more about your interactions with this guy than anyone

>else, other than the escort, does. I'm just throwing out

>ideas that you might want to consider.

 

I considered those ideas. That's why I paid. I think the disagreement between us is more fundamental as I recall your prior posts. I think there are some who hire for sex and others for companionship. I don't mean any disrespect for those who hire for the latter, but that's not my game. I have lots of friends and just don't need to hire friends. In this particular case, the escort became a regular and early on we both realized that we liked spending time together. So we discussed this issue a lot, and came to a clear understanding. I don't think my replying to a voicemail messaage from him, and offering to fly him over in any way changes the prior conditions. It certainly was not my intent, and while I acknowledge his plausible deniability, I seriously doubt that he believes that. My precise words were: "if I pay for the ticket, would you come over." There was no discussion about hiring him at all. The bottom line though is that this is a cautionary tale about friendships with escorts. If you want that to be friends plus sex, that's a hard transition to manner. If you want friendship minus sex, you can probably find that, but why bother.

[guyinsf]

So, just so I am sure I understand you:

 

You don't want this guy to be a friend without sex. (You say, "Why bother?") This guy traveled to spend time with you (for which you don't pay) but also had sex with you (for which you normally pay an escort), right? At what point did the two of you agree that he would have sex with you for free just because you flew him to see you? Or are you saying that the two of you did not have sex that weekend? Or did you just not negotiate an appropriate rate for the length of the appointment and you ended up feeling overcharged for the amount of sex you had?

 

I'm really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but everything you have posted thus far makes me think that you believe you should have had a weekend of sex with this guy and not paid him anything because you paid for airfare and expenses. If that is true then I would suggest that you just got a lesson, and it isn't specific to this escort: Escorts expect to be paid for having sex with someone they would not otherwise choose as a sex partner. Perhaps your feelings for this guy led you to believe that the nature of your relationship was different (sex buddies or something like that as opposed to escort/client when having sex and friends when just getting together for a movie or a meal or something)?

[axebahia]

>Perhaps your feelings for

>this guy led you to believe that the nature of your

>relationship was different (sex buddies or something like that

>as opposed to escort/client when having sex and friends when

>just getting together for a movie or a meal or something)?

 

I agree, and again that's why I paid. But I think you continue to miss the point, I was clear over a 6 month period that I don't pay for companionship. We discussed this often. I would understand your perspective if that factual predicate did not exist. That was the background for the plane ticket for the weekend together. As I said before too, part of the reason that I would not normally pay for sex under such circumstances is that I have a regular I quite like nearby, and could accesss him much cheaper. (In fact the imported escort was well aware about that because I mentioned that in our earliest discussions of this issue!) You are known here for an inability or unwillingness to critique escorts, but on this one the facts just don't support your view, I am sorry.

 

As for the rest of your injunction, the irony is that I have now started up a "friends plus sex" with the other former escort so you see God does smile on the great and the good!

[guyinsf]

I started to type a reply that would continue our "debate," but then I realized that it probably doesn't make sense to do that. It seems like you feel that I am not understanding you, and I certainly don't believe that you are understanding me.

 

My final comments are this (and believe me, I'm not planning to post again to "have the last word"): Though you are not coming out and directly saying so, basically you felt entitled to have sex with this escort for free under the circumstances you describe. He expected you to pay not as a friend who was proving companionship but as an escort with whom you were having sex. Your rationalizations for believing it should have been clear you weren't going to pay him anything is that you don't pay for companionship and you could have gotten sex from someone else for less money. Just because you paid the "delivery charge" doesn't mean you don't have to pay for the "purchase" as well.

 

Maybe your new escort-friend will end up giving you free sex, but I wouldn't count on it.

[axebahia]

>Your rationalizations for believing it should

>have been clear you weren't going to pay him anything is that

>you don't pay for companionship and you could have gotten sex

>from someone else for less money. Just because you paid the

>"delivery charge" doesn't mean you don't have to pay for the

>"purchase" as well.

 

No again, for the last time, my "rationalization" is that I told him over a 6 month period that I don't and won't pay for companionship. In light of that, I don't think my offer to pay for his airfare implied any wilingness to pay a weekend rate. You disagree ok, but I really think that clients who defend the use of plausible deniability by escorts under similar circumstances do other "clients" a tremendous diservice. Your failure to recognize the factual predicate here is what I don't understand.

[axebahia]

>Maybe your new escort-friend will end up giving you free sex,

>but I wouldn't count on it.

 

.S.

 

As I said above: (1) he is a former escort; and (2) our current friendship includes sex without the exchange of cash. Can I make this any clearer for you?

[guyinsf]

I know that I said the above posting would be my last, but this post of yours made me curious. I just re-read each of your posts. You early on wrote about a new escort relationship which has developed into a friendship with free sex, so I was wrong to cast doubt that that would occur. You, however, NEVER wrote such a thing about this guy you are attempting to cast in a negative light (whoever he is). You wrote things like "We had a discussion about this for several months" and things like that, but the context you kept providing was that "you don't pay for companionship," not that you don't pay for sex after an escort has become a friend. My interpretation of "I don't pay for companionship" is that you don't pay just to hang out with someone; it doesn't mean that you don't pay for sex with an escort just because he has become a "companion" in other ways.

 

You have, in fact, been writing about two escorts, right? One who is now an ex-escort who is currently providing you sex without the exchange of cash and the other one who expected to be paid when you flew him somewhere to be with you for the weekend?

 

As to your other comment above about the guy expecting his weekend rate, I could see how you would find that "wrong" since you had indicated that you don't pay for companionship. I still think your communication wasn't clear, though, at least in terms of what you have revealed here. I don't pay for companionship either, but I pay an overnight rate when I'm with an escort with whom I am friends. We have enough sex that it is worth it to me. I don't count the minutes we have sex and pay him some proration. When we don't have sex after hanging out for a movie or whatever, I don't pay him because I don't pay for companionship, either. If I suggested that we spend the weekend together and we had sex on and off the entire weekend, I would expect to pay for the weekend. In my mind I wouldn't be paying for the hours we spent together but his availability for sex during the entire weekend.

 

>>Maybe your new escort-friend will end up giving you free

>sex,

>>but I wouldn't count on it.

>

>.S.

>

>As I said above: (1) he is a former escort; and (2) our

>current friendship includes sex without the exchange of cash.

>Can I make this any clearer for you?

[uwsider]

I wanted for a long time to discount the negative things I've read with regard to escort/client friendships, trying to believe that the one I considered a "true" friendship was unique and therefore the cynic's comments were not applicable to me. Sadly, I'm afraid that every comment I perceived as cynical should more aptly have been perceived as truth. I would certainly not presume to say that that frienships cannot ever stem from such a mercantile transaction, but I think it is very wise to be wary and to keep the true dynamic of the situation clear in your perception. I have several escorts with whom I've developed a "friendly" and cordial relationship. None of these men are what I would call close friends. I have had a four plus year relationship with an escort that I truly thought had developed into a true friendship. I actually think that the handwriting has been on the wall for a long time, but I was not willing to read it. Without going into detail, I'll simply say that the relationship was not what I believed it to be. It's a hard pill to swallow considering the investment I made in it emotionally, financially and in many other ways. I suppose the reasons I'm writing this at all is just to admonish others that they should really be realistic, and I suppose even skeptical in these situations. One can become very vulnerable when one is enamored, and if the escort allows the belief that there's something beyond the business relationship, it can ultimately be a very damaging and painful experience.

[axebahia]

Well said!